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Catalan thread continued


Sophelia

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8 hours ago, Loge said:

They'd have to drop the rebellion charge to get him extradited. They prefer not to do that. Not having him extradited allows them to let the rebellion charge stand, which means he can't return to Spain for the foreseeable future. 

Oh thanks, now I understand it better.

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  • 1 month later...

@Meera of Tarth

Yes, we have another diplomatic fight with Spain. They didn't like it that our Speaker of out Flemish Parliament wrote a letter to Carme Fordacell saying Spain doesn't meet the conditions to be part of a modern democratic EU. 

Oops :P

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14 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

@Meera of Tarth

Yes, we have another diplomatic fight with Spain. They didn't like it that our Speaker of out Flemish Parliament wrote a letter to Carme Fordacell saying Spain doesn't meet the conditions to be part of a modern democratic EU. 

Oops :P

Oh...really? Do you have link?

Right now I was watching some new unprecedented videos (this time from the Police) from Oct 1st. that have seen the light today.

 

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8 hours ago, Tijgy said:

@Meera of Tarth

Yes, we have another diplomatic fight with Spain. They didn't like it that our Speaker of out Flemish Parliament wrote a letter to Carme Fordacell saying Spain doesn't meet the conditions to be part of a modern democratic EU. 

Oops :P

Interesting, I haven't been able to find any mention of this in the Spanish press. A google search reveals an article in "El nacional" (which is not a paper I usually read) but not (currently) in any of the main Spanish papers.

That said, it's obviously an attempt at provocation. I'd happily argue against anyone who defended the position that Spain doesn't meet the conditions to be a part of a modern democratic EU (a position not currently held by the EU).

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6 hours ago, Mentat said:

Interesting, I haven't been able to find any mention of this in the Spanish press. A google search reveals an article in "El nacional" (which is not a paper I usually read) but not (currently) in any of the main Spanish papers.

Yeah, as the article says in Catalan, they are actually taken from a Spanish source "eldiario.es":

https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/camaras-antidisturbios-Policia_0_817868387.html

article in English: 

 

but it's not a mainstream newspaper.

Both the Catalan 24hNews and the original source (of course) provide the same videos I linked and an extra one: 

 

http://www.ccma.cat/324/es-filtren-videos-inedits-de-l1-o-gravats-per-la-policia-nacional/noticia/2877179/

 

article in English: 

 

The Catalan 24H also shows another extra video (first one) in which they explain the article, they interview people and show the policemen did't find the ballot boxes and instead they filled rubbish bags with coloured boxes for kids from the school. The fact that they didn't find them in the school of one of the videos it's also covered in one of the videos from the original source and the other two.

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12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yeah, as the article says in Catalan, they are actually taken from a Spanish source "eldiario.es":

Nah, I was referring to the Flemish parliament letter to Forcadell (which was eventually featured in Spanish press a couple of hours after that post).

Police charges during the 1-O are a bit of old news (even if the footage in the article was previously unreleased), but since the 1st anniversary is approaching they must feel like it's a good time to revisit it. The local government where I work is preparing commemorative acts of both the 1st of October referendum and the botched declaration of independence of the 6th-7th.

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9 hours ago, Mentat said:

I'd happily argue against anyone who defended the position that Spain doesn't meet the conditions to be a part of a modern democratic EU (a position not currently held by the EU).

There are a lot of them in Flanders. The whole Flemish parliament at least condemned unanimously the violence by the Spanish government during the referendum. 

He actually doubled down saying if you sent 800 people to hospital for a referendum, this isn't normal and that he doesn't take one word back. And that if the (federal department of) Foreign Affairs says he did something wrong, they will create an internal diplomatic fight. 

Puidgemont was actually yesterday on our national (Flemish) television presenting his new book. 

Some of the guests said he actually should go back to Spain and join his friends in jail to be a martyr ... (they didn't agree with the fact the Catalans politicians were jailed but rather with the fact that he lost his credibility by fleeing to Belgium). 

 And the Belgian Justice is investigating the fact the Spanish government was spying on Puidgemont on Belgian territory. 

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25 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

There are a lot of them in Flanders. The whole Flemish parliament at least condemned unanimously the violence by the Spanish government during the referendum. 

He actually doubled down saying if you sent 800 people to hospital for a referendum, this isn't normal and that he doesn't take one word back. And that if the (federal department of) Foreign Affairs says he did something wrong, they will create an internal diplomatic fight.

Then I'd happily argue with them? I condemn the violence during the referendum too, but what characterises a modern democracy isn't the nonexistence of violence (there are many cases of demonstrations with a more or less warranted violent response by the police in countries like Germany, France or the United States). Said violence was amply reported by the national and international press, publicly condemned by whomever cared to do so and taken to an independent court of justice by whomever thought it was unwarranted. That's what characterises a modern democracy.

Though any measure of violence is worthy of a condemnation, I think in this case it should be put into context. Of all the people wounded in the demonstration there were two serious injuries: a man who lost his eye from the impact of rubber ammunition and a man with a prior heart condition who had a heart attack in the middle of the referendum. The other people had light injuries (like a cut or a bruise) that required medical attention but no stay in hospital or followup. Ideally no one would have been injured, though ideally the Catalan Parliament would have abided by the rulings of the Spanish courts and the people holding the referendum would have complied with law enforcement officers. That said, though it was a regrettable affair all around, the brunt of the blame must certainly fall on those who used violence against peaceful civilians.

39 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

And the Belgian Justice is investigating the fact the Spanish government was spying on Puidgemont on Belgian territory.

That seems more than fair (though Puigdemont is a Spanish citizen, not a Belgian institution or official, so I'm not sure  the surveillance that was kept is exactly spying). Belgium and Spain are definitely at odds in everything regarding Catalonia, which to me just reinforces the need for some kind of European mediation.

 

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57 minutes ago, Mentat said:

Then I'd happily argue with them? I condemn the violence during the referendum too, but what characterises a modern democracy isn't the nonexistence of violence (there are many cases of demonstrations with a more or less warranted violent response by the police in countries like Germany, France or the United States). Said violence was amply reported by the national and international press, publicly condemned by whomever cared to do so and taken to an independent court of justice by whomever thought it was unwarranted. That's what characterises a modern democracy.

 

My main issue is actually the fact the Catalans weren't able to hold a legal referendum. The referendum was actually voted with a majority in the Catalan government. 

I think it was not democratic that the referendum was illegal because people should always have a right to vote. 

59 minutes ago, Mentat said:

Belgium and Spain are definitely at odds in everything regarding Catalonia, which to me just reinforces the need for some kind of European mediation.

Between Spain and Catalonia (I agree). In the same resolution the Flemish Parliament actually gave the order to the government they should ask the international community to mediate between them

Or Spain and Belgium? The problem in Belgium are the Flemish Nationalists who use the Spain-Catalan dispute for their own electoral reasons. Five years ago they became part of the government with the promise they would fix the economy, immigration problems, ... while at the same time they agreed to shut up about all the Flemish demands for more autonomy, ... They didn't really succeeded. They are now using the fight for Catalan independence as a sort of publicity stunt because they wasted five years of the road to more Flemish autonomy. 

 

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1 hour ago, Mentat said:

Then I'd happily argue with them? I condemn the violence during the referendum too, but what characterises a modern democracy isn't the nonexistence of violence (there are many cases of demonstrations with a more or less warranted violent response by the police in countries like Germany, France or the United States). Said violence was amply reported by the national and international press, publicly condemned by whomever cared to do so and taken to an independent court of justice by whomever thought it was unwarranted. That's what characterises a modern democracy.

Let's see if it makes justice...

Quote

 

Though any measure of violence is worthy of a condemnation, I think in this case it should be put into context. Of all the people wounded in the demonstration there were two serious injuries: a man who lost his eye from the impact of rubber ammunition and a man with a prior heart condition who had a heart attack in the middle of the referendum. The other people had light injuries (like a cut or a bruise) that required medical attention but no stay in hospital or followup.

Not exactly cuts or bruises in some cases, though. When things are bleeding in your head, that is. 

Quote

Ideally no one would have been injured, though ideally the Catalan Parliament would have abided by the rulings of the Spanish courts and the people holding the referendum would have complied with law enforcement officers. That said, though it was a regrettable affair all around, the brunt of the blame must certainly fall on those who used violence against peaceful civilians.

That seems more than fair (though Puigdemont is a Spanish citizen, not a Belgian institution or official, so I'm not sure  the surveillance that was kept is exactly spying). Belgium and Spain are definitely at odds in everything regarding Catalonia, which to me just reinforces the need for some kind of European mediation.

Well, not everyone had the advice, as we all know. Some were just injured for standing there, from their backs.

Others were, like the videos I just linked show, when some police officers say that "it's better you go out so as that no one gets injured or you prefer that", paraphrasing, then they injured some people to show what could happen to others and finally asked more people the same they had asked before.

I was repulsed when I heard one f them saying "and then you will say that the SanFermines issue was rape", and could not help but get reminded of the scandal of La Manada (The Pack) who were finally condemnded lately solely for sexual abuse and it's unlikely the thing will change.

 

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1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

My main issue is actually the fact the Catalans weren't able to hold a legal referendum. The referendum was actually voted with a majority in the Catalan government. 

I think it was not democratic that the referendum was illegal because people should always have a right to vote.

I understand that you think that Catalans should be able to vote on whether they want to continue being part of Spain or not. So do many Catalans and other people from abroad, but the rights of territories to secede from their country is not something that's currently recognised by most any continental democracy. A German Lander can't decide to hold an independence referendum and implement the result. This means that, while the conversation on whether the right to secede should be universally recognised is one that can be had, the fact that Spain doesn't currently recognise it doesn't make Spain any less of a modern democracy than France or Germany.

I'm curious, what's the situation in Belgium? Are the Flemish going to hold a referendum? Is there a legal framework for their potential independence?

1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

Between Spain and Catalonia (I agree). In the same resolution the Flemish Parliament actually gave the order to the government they should ask the international community to mediate between them

Or Spain and Belgium? The problem in Belgium are the Flemish Nationalists who use the Spain-Catalan dispute for their own electoral reasons. Five years ago they became part of the government with the promise they would fix the economy, immigration problems, ... while at the same time they agreed to shut up about all the Flemish demands for more autonomy, ... They didn't really succeeded. They are now using the fight for Catalan independence as a sort of publicity stunt because they wasted five years of the road to more Flemish autonomy. 

A general mediation would be great. If Spain is to ever recognise Catalonia as an interlocutor on the international scene then Europe is necessarily going to have to come first. The independence of Catalonia would harm Spain greatly. It's its second most wealthy region and it would open the road for further regions like the Basque country seeking independence (and potentially other regions, like Galicia, Valencia or the Balearic islands). The political turmoil would likely be devastating for its economy. Only way Spain could possibly allow it to happen is within the framework of a European general policy about secession (different to the current "you're out" one...) and a strong commitment to babysitting the process and its aftermath and guaranteeing the political and economical stability of the region. 

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Well, if they had been intelligent, they'd just have let people vote and ignore them, if, after all, the issue is unconstitutional and it willl likely always be.

But they had to intervene...

It was a stupid decision, but at that point Rajoy had staked his political reputation to an illegal referendum not being held. He was also under a lot of pressure from Ciudadanos, who were criticising his government as weak and ineffective (a point of view that much of the right-wing electorate shared). Doing nothing might have been a sound tactical decision, but it would have been politically grievous. Anyway, that ship sailed long ago. I've also no interest in defending the aberrant behaviour of individual police officers. They should face a professional inquiry and/or a court of law.

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21 hours ago, Mentat said:

I'm curious, what's the situation in Belgium? Are the Flemish going to hold a referendum? Is there a legal framework for their potential independence?

23 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I think Flanders' situation is actually really comparable to regions like Catalonia, ... the Flemish are actually the small majority of Belgium. Nevertheless there are a lot of systems in place which actually neutralizes their majority: the federal government consists of the same number of Flemish and French-speaking people, for some votes you do need a majority in each language group of the federal parliament, they have a sort of veto power, ...

This neutralization of the Flemish majority are actually the result of the fact the Flemish tried to gain more political power and autonomy by dialogue and follow the constitutional rules, and not chose the way of an unilateral declaration of independence. 

The leading Flemish Nationalist Party thinks it isn't possible to have an unilateral declaration. So their 'smart' strategic plan is now bullying by creating a right-leaning federal government while Wallonia is actually very left-leaning hoping that the French-speaking population also want to have more reforms, more autonomy and in the end independence or joining France. 

 

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And now with the upcoming anniversary of the 1st of October some demonstrations on Saturday. The first one is the one of the policemen who will celebrate the anniversary of their "precious" job, and then there will be another (IIRC) from the other side.

 

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12 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I think Flanders' situation is actually really comparable to regions like Catalonia, ... the Flemish are actually the small majority of Belgium. Nevertheless there are a lot of systems in place which actually neutralizes their majority: the federal government consists of the same number of Flemish and French-speaking people, for some votes you do need a majority in each language group of the federal parliament, they have a sort of veto power, ...

This neutralization of the Flemish majority are actually the result of the fact the Flemish tried to gain more political power and autonomy by dialogue and follow the constitutional rules, and not chose the way of an unilateral declaration of independence. 

The leading Flemish Nationalist Party thinks it isn't possible to have an unilateral declaration. So their 'smart' strategic plan is now bullying by creating a right-leaning federal government while Wallonia is actually very left-leaning hoping that the French-speaking population also want to have more reforms, more autonomy and in the end independence or joining France.

Thanks, this is interesting (though some of it I don't completely understand). In the Spanish parliament scarcely populated regions are over-represented, since a minimum representation was set for each region (which over-represents the regions of Spain with a very low population). Catalonia is the second most populated region in Spain (under Andalucia) with a 16,08% of Spanish population. Of the 350 members of Parliament, Catalonia elects 50 (31 for Barcelona, 7 for Gerona and Tarragona and 5 for Lerida). This is a 14,28%, so it's slightly under-represented compared to its population, but not grievously (and so are the rest of densely populated areas of Spain).

I had a look at the Belgian constitution and (though my French isn't great) it seemed to me like the Federal government wouldn't accept a unilateral declaration of independence of the Flemish region as valid. Similarly to Spain there is a Constitutional Court and the Constitution can only be modified by the Federal Government. The referendum held in Catalonia was truly an attempt to legitimise the unilateral declaration of independence that followed shortly, which is what Spain was frightened of.

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