House Frey should be respected

[Varysblackfyre321]

38 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

 

This isn't true though. In this war or any war when has Tywin treated a house on the other side of a war harshly when they bent the knee after wards? 

This war isn't much relevant since Frey isn a pyscic and can't see into the future on how Tywin would treat the rebels.  Tywin didn't have the power to do so in any other war. All Frey has to look at Tywin's history of overreacting to slights against his house to be extremely wary of saying no. Hell Tywin doesnt need to exterminate the freys to be sever they can be said to proven to unreliable to manage the twins and demanded to vactate for a more loyal house. The Freys would be crippled for life. Just to be clear I'm of the mind he didn't need much nudging to decide he's doing the RW but it certainly didn't hurt.

[Blackwater Revenant]

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robb said he wouldn't give them the payment for their services to join his little rebellion. The price was high because the actual risks Robb was asking them to take was equally high. He made sure all the Frey lives lost for his rebellion to get a boy with their blood as the next king was in vain whether the rebellion was successful or not.

So let me ask you this. It's morally acceptable for Walder to send innocent men to their deaths if it means he gets to improve his own personal status. But if his personal ambitions aren't fulfilled, all of a sudden the deaths of those men mean something to him?

Walder doesn't give two shits about the lives of his men that were lost. All he cared about was getting what he wanted, and claiming that the price was to high for him to pay for no gain is BS, and just another excuse in the attempt to justify his heinous crime.

[A Ghost of Someone]

5 hours ago, Thomas Crown said:

Many people hate them now and consider them enemy but I can't really see where they lost respect.  People fear them now.  Anybody would think thrice before breaking their oaths to a Frey.  So in a way the Freys gained more respect.  What they lost is a matter of public relations.  People may hate them now but you can't argue that people will thread more carefully around them.  People in the south will get over it quickly and it's back to business as usual.  The north is a different story but nobody in the north is strong enough to take on the Freys.  The red wedding will continue to be unpopular  and it stained their honor but it was better than losing to Tywin.  It's too risky to stick with Robb and face the possibility of losing your castle and your family. 

What they gained.  Riverrun.  Got rid of fat Walda.  Marriage alliance to the new warden of the north.  Got rid of the Tullys.  Peace.

What they lost.  Popularity.  Negative publicity.  Petyr and Merrett.  Jingle Bells. 

 

They are likely to be exterminated as they are the ones that double-crossed virtually every house in the north and the Riverlands by murdering unarmed wedding guests from their houses.

[Varysblackfyre321]

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

So let me ask you this. It's morally acceptable for Walder to send innocent men to their deaths if it means he gets to improve his own personal status.

Nope for me. Anymore than it is for Robb for vegencevegence. But in a feudal society yes. They're all a bunch of self-centered, entitled assholes. With the exception of Edmure.

 

23 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

But if his personal ambitions aren't fulfilled, all of a sudden the deaths of those men mean something to him?

They were the payment for Robb's hand. And he gave a lot of men up to Robb for a crown. 

37 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Walder doesn't give two shits about the lives of his men that were lost. All he cared about was getting what he wanted,

He's not going to weep any tears in grief true But those men were his assets. Losing them was costly. But he was willing to pay it because he wanted a Frey to be king! Robb denied him that after he gave so much  

[Adam Yozza]

20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Nope for me. Anymore than it is for Robb for vegencevegence. But in a feudal society yes. They're all a bunch of self-centered, entitled assholes. With the exception of Edmure.

 

They were the payment for Robb's hand. And he gave a lot of men up to Robb for a crown. 

He's not going to weep any tears in grief true But those men were his assets. Losing them was costly. But he was willing to pay it because he wanted a Frey to be king! Robb denied him that after he gave so much  

Not when he agreed to the alliance he didn't. when he agreed to the terms he was only marrying a daughter to a future Lord Paramount. That's the same deal as he was getting in substitute really. He was only bitter because a) he felt insulted and b.) Robb was proclaimed King after the alliance had already been agreed.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

15 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

they did nor care about what the Ironborn did to his enemies if it benifitted him.

The Iron Born did not fight for Robb. 

[Light a wight tonight]

I can respect them as a tribe of horndogs. After all, the successful organism is the one that replicates itself the most times, passing on its DNA.

As a Noble House? Don't make me laugh. The current batch thrives on treachery. Not even such a cruel individual as Tywin planned as evil an event as the Red Wedding, which Lord Walder took so much pleasure in. If there's any justice we'll see Red Wedding, Part Deux at Riverrun, with the Freys as guests of honor. Or can "honor" be used in the context of the Freys? 

[Bernie Mac]

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 The marriage pact did not cost anyone their lives. 

Yes it did. Robb sent the infantry to suffer a tactical defeat, losing a fith of those men, that is roughly 300 Frey losses as well as Stevron and which ever Frey men lost their life.

Walder very much considers it Robb's fault and is pissed with it as it is clear in some of the last words he speaks to Robb

Lord Walder raised a hand, and the music stopped, all but one drum. Catelyn heard the crash of distant battle, and closer the wild howling of a wolf. Grey Wind, she remembered too late. "Heh," Lord Walder cackled at Robb, "the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

Now you can argue that Walder's retribution was too high, I tend to agree, but too dismiss his anger over simply a marriage pact not happening is either being disengenous or not undertanding why the Freys were so pissed. 

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

What reason does he have to think Tywin will extinguish his house?

Tywin's reputation? The fact that without access to the Twins the thousands of Westerlands nobles and soliders would never have been killed at Rivverrun. The fact that there were more Frey men in the Westerlands paying the Lannisters back in kind than any other Northern or Riverland House. 

Personally I don't think Tywin would have, (he would have just rid himself of Walder, Stervron and Stevron's line and installed Emmon and Genna) but the argument is that what did the Freys think. I think Walder went overboard in his vengeance against Robb, so it stands to reason that he would fear that Tywin might do the same to him.  

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes it did. Robb sent the infantry to suffer a tactical defeat, losing a fith of those men, that is roughly 300 Frey losses as well as Stevron and which ever Frey men lost their life.

Walder very much considers it Robb's fault and is pissed with it as it is clear in some of the last words he speaks to Robb

Lord Walder raised a hand, and the music stopped, all but one drum. Catelyn heard the crash of distant battle, and closer the wild howling of a wolf. Grey Wind, she remembered too late. "Heh," Lord Walder cackled at Robb, "the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

Now you can argue that Walder's retribution was too high, I tend to agree, but too dismiss his anger over simply a marriage pact not happening is either being disengenous or not undertanding why the Freys were so pissed. 

The war cost lives. Not the broken marriage pact. Those lives were lost whether or not Robb kept his word. Walder may feel as if they were lost for nothing after Robb broke his word but that does not mean that the broken pact cost lives. 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin's reputation? The fact that without access to the Twins the thousands of Westerlands nobles and soliders would never have been killed at Rivverrun. The fact that there were more Frey men in the Westerlands paying the Lannisters back in kind than any other Northern or Riverland House. 

Personally I don't think Tywin would have, (he would have just rid himself of Walder, Stervron and Stevron's line and installed Emmon and Genna) but the argument is that what did the Freys think. I think Walder went overboard in his vengeance against Robb, so it stands to reason that he would fear that Tywin might do the same to him.  

Tywin does have a hard reputation but there is nothing in his history or in his reputation to suggest he might seek vengeance against a house that decided to switch sides in the middle of the war &  bend the knee to the IT. The argument was being made that Walder could have been forced by Tywin to orchestrate the RW, which is complete BS. Not only is there no evidence to suggest Tywin forced him but also did Walder behave like a man being forced? Not at all. He enjoyed every minute of it. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

I can respect them as a tribe of horndogs. After all, the successful organism is the one that replicates itself the most times, passing on its DNA.

As a Noble House? Don't make me laugh. The current batch thrives on treachery. Not even such a cruel individual as Tywin planned as evil an event as the Red Wedding, which Lord Walder took so much pleasure in. If there's any justice we'll see Red Wedding, Part Deux at Riverrun, with the Freys as guests of honor. Or can "honor" be used in the context of the Freys? 

Meh, Justice isn't always dispensed sadly. Doesn't mean it's not real just that it's picky.

[The Wolves]

22 hours ago, Thomas Crown said:

Many people hate them now and consider them enemy but I can't really see where they lost respect.  People fear them now.  Anybody would think thrice before breaking their oaths to a Frey.[\b] So in a way the Freys gained more respect.  What they lost is a matter of public relations.  People may hate them now but you can't argue that people will thread more carefully around them.  People in the south will get over it quickly and it's back to business as usual.  The north is a different story but nobody in the north is strong enough to take on the Freys.  The red wedding will continue to be unpopular  and it stained their honor but it was better than losing to Tywin.  It's too risky to stick with Robb and face the possibility of losing your castle and your family. 

What they gained.  Riverrun.  Got rid of fat Walda.  Marriage alliance to the new warden of the north.  Got rid of the Tullys.  Peace.

What they lost.  Popularity.  Negative publicity.  Petyr and Merrett.  Jingle Bells. 

 

Of course they lost respect. Their word is no good now. Who would sit at a table with a Frey without distrust, who would stay overnight in their home, who would trust a Frey to watch their back etc......

But after the RW, who would willingly have an agreement with a Frey? Do you think if we had seen that 5 year jump that the Freys would have made any packs during that time? Do you think that anyone would willingly marry into that family? Do you think that anyone without the last name Frey would ever walk into The Twins again? 

They got cursed gains that they can’t and won’t keep. They sure didn’t get any peace. 

Manderly murdered Freys in the North and fed them to their kin. The Freys are getting offed one by one in Winterfell mysteriously and the dumbasses brought 200 men both in extreme weather that they don’t know how to fight in. I would also bet anything that none of the Freys or their 200 men will be returning to The Twins. I would also bet that they will lose many if not everything that they have family, The Twins etc... 

[Kandrax]

How would you feel if some psychopath gives  Lothar Frey a choice: rape your eldest daughter to death or your younger daugthers will have their throats cut? I ask this question because some readers consider being Frey worse crime than raping a twelve year old, massacring whole town and raising a child as dog.

[Kandrax]

What if a guest threaten that he will blow a horn and give signal to his men to set ablaze a cart full of children outside host's castle, unless host kill him? (He holds horn in his mouth)

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 12/22/2017 at 7:15 PM, Frey Kings said:

Exactly!!! 

Your 10000 year old castle, 5000 year old sword , the 3000 year old war where your ancestor slew some rival lord because he wanted to take a stone mill from your lands... That all means nothing in the end If you can't catch enough fish to feed your people. 

The Freys are one of the few real success stories in Westeros.  I'm sure they had luck on their side too.  An economically strategic location like the crossing is a lot more valuable than say, barren Winterfell.  The first Freys were industrious when they built their bridge.  The succeeding Freys were damn smart enough to make improvements on their bridge.  They have every right to be proud of what they have accomplished and I cannot really blame Walder for protecting his assets (bridge and ass both) against the stupidity of Robb and the Starks.  Robb screwed said asset when he broke his word and then goes on to make idiotic decisions that will eventually lead to the defeat of their side.  Robb's dishonor and disrespect gave Walder the social and ethical loophole that he needed to jump off of the Stark's sinking ship.  One can hardly blame the man.  He did what a good family patriarch would do.

The Frey's participation in the red wedding will no doubt tarnish their social reputation for a while but compare that against the possibility of sticking with the losing side.  The Freys were the richest of Robb's allies and they stand to lose the most out of anybody.  Robb already demonstrated his lack of respect for his allies when he broke his promise to Walder and beheaded the head of the Karstarks.  We have to see this drama from the eyes of Lord Walder.  Robb doesn't care about the Freys.  He's only using them.  Walder already felt disrespected by the Tullys and Robb's actions confirmed that Robb was no better than Hoster. 

[Blackwater Revenant]

36 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The Frey's participation in the red wedding will no doubt tarnish their social reputation for a while but compare that against the possibility of sticking with the losing side. 

Oh you sweet summer child. You really have no idea what's to become of the Freys in the near future do you?

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Just now, Blackwater Revenant said:

Oh you sweet summer child. You really have no idea what's to become of the Freys in the near future do you?

Prosperity, I hope.  I never really held the Red Wedding against them.  But then I am not fond of Robb and the Starks either.  I know many who like the Starks want to see the Freys punished.  I guess they and I will always feel differently about this issue.  The Red Wedding took down a pesky rebel who was enjoying some success on the battle field.  It was for the good that the Stark rebels were put down.  It prevented further bloodshed and destruction.  Just because it's bad for the Starks doesn't mean it's bad for the majority of the people in Westeros. 

[Blackwater Revenant]

15 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Prosperity, I hope.  I never really held the Red Wedding against them.  But then I am not fond of Robb and the Starks either.  I know many who like the Starks want to see the Freys punished.  I guess they and I will always feel differently about this issue.  The Red Wedding took down a pesky rebel who was enjoying some success on the battle field.  It was for the good that the Stark rebels were put down.  It prevented further bloodshed and destruction.  Just because it's bad for the Starks doesn't mean it's bad for the majority of the people in Westeros. 

Well, I applaud your resolve to stay optimistic, however, I fear you are not going to be a fan of Winds of Winter...heh heh heh.

[Kandrax]

Would anyone answer my questions?

[The Wolves]

37 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Prosperity, I hope.  I never really held the Red Wedding against them.  But then I am not fond of Robb and the Starks either.  I know many who like the Starks want to see the Freys punished.  I guess they and I will always feel differently about this issue.  The Red Wedding took down a pesky rebel who was enjoying some success on the battle field.  It was for the good that the Stark rebels were put down.  It prevented further bloodshed and destruction.  Just because it's bad for the Starks doesn't mean it's bad for the majority of the people in Westeros. 

I never understand how anyone reading the books can say that the Starks losing the war is good for Westeros. 

The Starks/North is the first line of defense when the Wall falls. A ice zombie apocalypse is about to take over during the most brutal winter the world has ever seen in thousands of years and some people think the Starks losing the war was good for Westeros. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

45 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Prosperity, I hope.  I never really held the Red Wedding against them.  But then I am not fond of Robb and the Starks either.  I know many who like the Starks want to see the Freys punished.  I guess they and I will always feel differently about this issue.  The Red Wedding took down a pesky rebel who was enjoying some success on the battle field.  It was for the good that the Stark rebels were put down.  It prevented further bloodshed and destruction.  Just because it's bad for the Starks doesn't mean it's bad for the majority of the people in Westeros. 

Huh, that's a rather unorthodox opinion. Can't say it doesn't have some merit. Sucks for the military men and highborns who were murdered but the 99% of the north won't really mind the temporary peace-theyve no real care whether a lion rules them or a wolf.