Is Tyrion Lannisters crime to much?

[Sigella]

On 2017-12-26 at 2:17 PM, Seams said:

The books left us at a major turning point in Tyrion's character development. I don't know whether he will spiral into being a villain or whether he will be redeemed. These are the factors and clues I am watching:

1. Penny. If you look closely at some of the dialogue, Penny has agreed to be the "father" that Tywin never was for Tyrion, teaching him to survive as a dwarf by using his wits. But she is a mummer and she is bitter about the slaughter of dwarfs. We have already seen her teaching Tyrion new "games" and making up her own rules for cyvasse (elephants flying), helping him to put on armor (first the wooden armor as part of the jousting act), telling him how great it is to travel and entertain people. When they are carrying buckets of water, she repeatedly tells Tyrion they need to go one way and he insists that they need to go another way. Is this a sign that Penny would have put Tyrion on the right track but he chose the wrong way? Or was Penny's path the wrong way - back to slavery and disease - while Tyrion's was the right way?

2. Jaime. The author presented Jaime as a complete and total jerk - stabbing the king he was sworn to protect, undermining the new king by fathering the queen's children through incest, pushing Bran Stark out a window. Then we saw him gradually redeemed through his sense of honor about the oath to Lady Stark, his bond with Brienne, his apparent recognition of Cersei's shortcomings, his determination to recover from the maiming of his arm, his freeing Tyrion from a death sentence, his just dealings with the lords in the riverlands regarding hostages and reparations. I worry that this gradual redemption for Jaime may reflect an opposite path for Tyrion. Tyrion seemed to be honorable (except for his treatment of Tysha), wise, hardworking, etc. but he has become bitter, maimed, violent, desperate, vengeful.

3. Mushrooms. This is on my list of symbols to sort out. I had a bit of an epiphany when I realized that there was a pun on "champion" and "champignon," the French word for mushroom. Tyrion's champions have been Bronn (successful) and Prince Oberyn (not successful). When Illyrio offered mushrooms to Tyrion, Tyrion suspected they were poisoned but they looked really tasty and he wanted to eat them but decided not to. Illyrio then ate some of them and appeared to suffer no ill effects. We know from the Melisandre / Maester Cressen scene that some "people" can ingest poison and live while others cannot, so we can't be sure that Tyrion would have lived if he ate the mushrooms - the author's point might be that, just like with champions, you take a gamble when you put your life in their hands.

But Tyrion found some other mushrooms at Illyrio's property and hid them in his boot. He says he used some of them to poison the servant called Nurse who kept an eye on the slaves considered to be "treasures". It's possible that Tyrion's mushrooms were not poisonous, and that Nurse would have died of the disease raging through the camp. Or maybe Nurse didn't die, and Tyrion just assumed his mushrooms had done the trick.

The word "nurse" is usually associated with a wet nurse in ASOIAF, and we have seen or heard about wet nurses in connection with babies whose mothers died tragically. Why would the author name this character "Nurse," and why would he have Tyrion kill (or intend to kill) Nurse? This is a mystery that could hold a clue to other aspects of the plot. Is the author telling us that Nurse was to Tyrion as Melisandre is to Stannis, and that she should be poisoned to stop the damage being inflicted on a major character? Or is Nurse like Septa Mordane, killed by Joffrey? (I realize Mordane was not really a wet nurse, but she did oversee "treasures" by being in charge of the Stark girls at Winterfell.) Does the Tyrion / Nurse dynamic foreshadow something about Gilly's fate? She is the most fully developed wet nurse character in the books so far.

[A new thought: there could also be a pun on "nurse" and "runes". Runes are another mysterious symbol in the books.]

Maybe there will be more mushroom-related activity in Tyrion's arc in TWoW and the meaning of the mushroom symbol will become clearer.

On mushrooms: during the Dance there was a dwarf at court by this name who pretended to be simple but wrote scandalous stories of what people did, in the lewdest possible terms. 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mushroom

[Lucius Lovejoy]

On 12/25/2017 at 2:51 PM, Curled Finger said:

I'm on the fence with this one.   Tyrion has made many mistakes but he's also performed feats of great heroism and valor.  No, I don't think Tyrion will ever have Casterly Rock.   I think he knew that when he killed Tywin, which was a crime of passion.   The problem with Tyrion is he maintained his whoring and drinking while he was Hand of the king.   His drinking continues to the point of suicidal, but his whoring has definitely ceased.  He's got himself into even more danger now.   I think CR is the last thing on his mind.  He was right when he confronted Tywin--by traditional law he had every right to inherit CR.  It had to be a bit like the situation with Tytos in Tywin's eyes.  He worked so hard to restore the Lannister name, lands and legacy and he wasn't about to have a person so much like his father retake the lands.   

I'm reasonably sure there will be much more important things to worry about than inheritance for Tyrion.   He already signed a great deal of his "inheritance" over to the Second Sons (fitting that) in order to join the company.   Who am I to say there will be anything left of the Westerlands by the time Tyrion returns to Westeros?  

I agree with most of this.  I do think Tyrion gets Casterly Rock in the end, but I'm assuming something like 90% of the population has been wiped out and the feudal system looks significantly different from how it did at the start of the series, so the politics of dealing with most of those western families will really not be an issue.

On 12/26/2017 at 7:38 AM, Joy Hill said:

People were already pissed at Tyrion for bringing the mountain clans in KL. If he actually invades Westeros accompanied by dragons, dothraki, sellswords, unsullied, ironborn and rhllor fanatics, he'll be considered a monster. He might be able to keep the Westerlands subdued if he inspires enough fear, but I doubt he will be loved.

Yup.

On 12/26/2017 at 8:17 AM, Seams said:

The books left us at a major turning point in Tyrion's character development. I don't know whether he will spiral into being a villain or whether he will be redeemed. These are the factors and clues I am watching:

...(snip)...

2. Jaime. The author presented Jaime as a complete and total jerk - stabbing the king he was sworn to protect, undermining the new king by fathering the queen's children through incest, pushing Bran Stark out a window. Then we saw him gradually redeemed through his sense of honor about the oath to Lady Stark, his bond with Brienne, his apparent recognition of Cersei's shortcomings, his determination to recover from the maiming of his arm, his freeing Tyrion from a death sentence, his just dealings with the lords in the riverlands regarding hostages and reparations. I worry that this gradual redemption for Jaime may reflect an opposite path for Tyrion. Tyrion seemed to be honorable (except for his treatment of Tysha), wise, hardworking, etc. but he has become bitter, maimed, violent, desperate, vengeful.

...(snip)...

Really interesting take here @Seams.  I think I've seen you post this before and I really enjoy the possibility of Tyrion having a mirrored arc to Jaime's.  My only hang-ups are that, while he had redeeming qualities and a sense of empathy that is completely lacking in Cersei/Joffrey, I don't necessarily think that Tyrion was altogether that good of a guy.  Not a bad guy, but not a good guy.  Jaime was unquestionably a bad guy as introduced, and seems to be headed on the path to being unquestionably a good guy.  I see Tyrion more likely starting murky and staying murky.  Also, I think Tyrion turning villainous would only work well if Danerys ended up as the human big bad, which I believed would be the case until about halfway through ADWD... I believe she will finish out as a heroic protagonist and Tyrion will be in her camp, so unless he is one of her betrayals, I can't see him as a villain.  Really good stuff here though, would have been exciting to see it unfold if TWOW were to ever be released.

3 hours ago, Traverys said:

After I was a little horrified by how much I wanted Joffrey to die... and then GRRM punished me for that by making his death pitiable, I think back to the Gandalf quote:

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

Fantastic quote!  Thanks for providing.

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

If Danaerys becomes queen, she can simply declare Tyrion innocent of the crime of kinslaying -- that it was all a lie cooked up by the evil Cersei and her equally evil brother Jaime, both of whom will either be dead or in exile. With the CR bannermen facing a choice of either bending the knee to Dany, and thus accepting her judgement on such matters, or getting roasted by dragonfire, they will accept Tyrion readily enough -- especially if he does something sensible, like permanently forgiving their debts or bestowing additional lands and honors upon them.

 

Was it Cersei who said "the truth is what you say it is" or something to that effect?

[Seams]

3 hours ago, Sigella said:

On mushrooms: during the Dance there was a dwarf at court by this name who pretended to be simple but wrote scandalous stories of what people did, in the lewdest possible terms. 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mushroom

Yes, the historian / fool Mushroom gives us a major set of clues about Tyrion, I would guess. I know that GRRM deliberately created multiple sources and varied details about historic events in the World book, but I suspect Mushroom's versions of the stories are the ones to which we are supposed to pay attention. Factual or not, they contain literary truths and clues about the current series.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

10 hours ago, Seams said:

Yes, the historian / fool Mushroom gives us a major set of clues about Tyrion, I would guess. I know that GRRM deliberately created multiple sources and varied details about historic events in the World book, but I suspect Mushroom's versions of the stories are the ones to which we are supposed to pay attention. Factual or not, they contain literary truths and clues about the current series.

Mushrooms also sided with Rhaenyra (or at least was in her court) over Aegon. Might be reading into it too much, but this could have parallels with what many of us expect Tyrion to do in the Second Dance (side with Dany over fAegon). I'm also of the view that Dany is going to have a Rhaenyra-esc trajectory, i.e go mad/bad and lose all her children (dragons). That's just me though. 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Was it Cersei who said "the truth is what you say it is" or something to that effect?

I think that was in the show, but it is basically correct in the book. There is no free, independent press in Westeros, no opposition parties, no public opinion polling... All they have to speak truth to power are singers and mummers, and even they have to be careful.

The regent's word is law and their truth is the only truth that matters, right up until they are overthrown by a new regent who then gets to define the truth.

[Darth Sidious]

On 12/26/2017 at 9:51 PM, The Mountain that Cries said:

Even if A + J = T  was real Tryion is still a kinslayer for killing Tywin. Tywin marries his cousin. So that would make Tywin his uncle. So still kinslayer. 

You're right.  Killing Uncle Tywin is still kinslaying.  I stand corrected.  

[Ivan Tsarevich]

On 27.12.2017 at 4:51 AM, The Mountain that Cries said:

Even if A + J = T  was real Tryion is still a kinslayer for killing Tywin. Tywin marries his cousin. So that would make Tywin his uncle. So still kinslayer. 

5 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

You're right.  Killing Uncle Tywin is still kinslaying.  I stand corrected.  

Not uncle, that would make Joanna and Tywin siblings. First cousin once removed.

[Sigella]

On 2017-12-28 at 1:06 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Mushrooms also sided with Rhaenyra (or at least was in her court) over Aegon. Might be reading into it too much, but this could have parallels with what many of us expect Tyrion to do in the Second Dance (side with Dany over fAegon). I'm also of the view that Dany is going to have a Rhaenyra-esc trajectory, i.e go mad/bad and lose all her children (dragons). That's just me though. 

Haha, Tyrion wishes, Mushroom claims that he aided Daemon in Rhaenyra's sex-ed.

[Ser Leftwich]

If memory serves, the readers know that Tyrion killed Tywin, but no characters know that for sure. Tyrion could just say that Varys did it. It would be a case of 'he said, he said.'

[Pontius Pilate]

I'm afraid it is.  Kinslaying is the worst of crimes.  To forgive Tyrion is to endanger the lives of every lord with an overeager heir.  Kinslaying will never be accepted because it will create problems for every noble family.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

I am not so sure that Tyrion's future is in Westeros.  Kinslaying is heinous and one not likely to be overlooked.  I don't think there will be anything left of the Lannister wealth.  Tyrion was too generous when he gave them away to the sellswords. 

Tyrion could go through a redemptive arc.  He can serve Dany and help her bring change to slaver's bay.  There is something beautiful in Jorah and Tyrion finding redemption in exile by helping Dany with her projects.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/25/2017 at 2:26 PM, Stormking902 said:

I enjoy Tyrion Lannisters character and was rooting for him to succeed in becomming Tywins heir to CR since Jamie is in the KG and I always pictured Cersie dieing at some point along with her children leaving Tyrion who would get CR and be respected by his bannerman because of some great deed he accomished. 

Then out of no where Tyrions murders his lord father and IMO his chance of ever holding and keeping CR since none of the Westernlands nobility would ever follow a little monster like Tyrion who broke one of the most sacrid laws Westeros has and falsly killed his king as well. Some say Danny will give him CR but frankly the lords of the West would never allow it unless held at dragon fire which is a very bad thing to do politically  and there would be many revolts and plots to have Tyrion murdered at first chance. 

The twisted little monkey demon will die somewhere in the Riverlands when Nymeria rips his arm off. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/25/2017 at 2:51 PM, Curled Finger said:

I'm on the fence with this one.   Tyrion has made many mistakes but he's also performed feats of great heroism and valor.  No, I don't think Tyrion will ever have Casterly Rock.   I think he knew that when he killed Tywin, which was a crime of passion.   The problem with Tyrion is he maintained his whoring and drinking while he was Hand of the king.   His drinking continues to the point of suicidal, but his whoring has definitely ceased.  He's got himself into even more danger now.   I think CR is the last thing on his mind.  He was right when he confronted Tywin--by traditional law he had every right to inherit CR.  It had to be a bit like the situation with Tytos in Tywin's eyes.  He worked so hard to restore the Lannister name, lands and legacy and he wasn't about to have a person so much like his father retake the lands.   

I'm reasonably sure there will be much more important things to worry about than inheritance for Tyrion.   He already signed a great deal of his "inheritance" over to the Second Sons (fitting that) in order to join the company.   Who am I to say there will be anything left of the Westerlands by the time Tyrion returns to Westeros?  

He should have been knighted for his actions at the Blackwater, and Tywin was wrong to deny him the rock. But now, he will have to do whatever it takes to secure the rock and pay the Second Sons. A Lannister always pays his debts. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/25/2017 at 4:59 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

Tyrion had a tough road to begin with.  Take away kinslaying and it's still a scandal to have him lord over the richest of the seven kingdoms.  He will need full military support from Dany if he is to ever take CR and there will be many people unhappy with a tiny kinslayer ruling over the Westerlands.

And if she won't back him? Perhaps he'll betray her for all the gold of Casterly Rock? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/26/2017 at 7:38 AM, Joy Hill said:

People were already pissed at Tyrion for bringing the mountain clans in KL. If he actually invades Westeros accompanied by dragons, dothraki, sellswords, unsullied, ironborn and rhllor fanatics, he'll be considered a monster. He might be able to keep the Westerlands subdued if he inspires enough fear, but I doubt he will be loved.

There's another debt the wee Lannister must repay. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/26/2017 at 8:17 AM, Seams said:

The books left us at a major turning point in Tyrion's character development. I don't know whether he will spiral into being a villain or whether he will be redeemed. These are the factors and clues I am watching:

1. Penny. If you look closely at some of the dialogue, Penny has agreed to be the "father" that Tywin never was for Tyrion, teaching him to survive as a dwarf by using his wits. But she is a mummer and she is bitter about the slaughter of dwarfs. We have already seen her teaching Tyrion new "games" and making up her own rules for cyvasse (elephants flying), helping him to put on armor (first the wooden armor as part of the jousting act), telling him how great it is to travel and entertain people. When they are carrying buckets of water, she repeatedly tells Tyrion they need to go one way and he insists that they need to go another way. Is this a sign that Penny would have put Tyrion on the right track but he chose the wrong way? Or was Penny's path the wrong way - back to slavery and disease - while Tyrion's was the right way?

2. Jaime. The author presented Jaime as a complete and total jerk - stabbing the king he was sworn to protect, undermining the new king by fathering the queen's children through incest, pushing Bran Stark out a window. Then we saw him gradually redeemed through his sense of honor about the oath to Lady Stark, his bond with Brienne, his apparent recognition of Cersei's shortcomings, his determination to recover from the maiming of his arm, his freeing Tyrion from a death sentence, his just dealings with the lords in the riverlands regarding hostages and reparations. I worry that this gradual redemption for Jaime may reflect an opposite path for Tyrion. Tyrion seemed to be honorable (except for his treatment of Tysha), wise, hardworking, etc. but he has become bitter, maimed, violent, desperate, vengeful.

3. Mushrooms. This is on my list of symbols to sort out. I had a bit of an epiphany when I realized that there was a pun on "champion" and "champignon," the French word for mushroom. Tyrion's champions have been Bronn (successful) and Prince Oberyn (not successful). When Illyrio offered mushrooms to Tyrion, Tyrion suspected they were poisoned but they looked really tasty and he wanted to eat them but decided not to. Illyrio then ate some of them and appeared to suffer no ill effects. We know from the Melisandre / Maester Cressen scene that some "people" can ingest poison and live while others cannot, so we can't be sure that Tyrion would have lived if he ate the mushrooms - the author's point might be that, just like with champions, you take a gamble when you put your life in their hands.

But Tyrion found some other mushrooms at Illyrio's property and hid them in his boot. He says he used some of them to poison the servant called Nurse who kept an eye on the slaves considered to be "treasures". It's possible that Tyrion's mushrooms were not poisonous, and that Nurse would have died of the disease raging through the camp. Or maybe Nurse didn't die, and Tyrion just assumed his mushrooms had done the trick.

The word "nurse" is usually associated with a wet nurse in ASOIAF, and we have seen or heard about wet nurses in connection with babies whose mothers died tragically. Why would the author name this character "Nurse," and why would he have Tyrion kill (or intend to kill) Nurse? This is a mystery that could hold a clue to other aspects of the plot. Is the author telling us that Nurse was to Tyrion as Melisandre is to Stannis, and that she should be poisoned to stop the damage being inflicted on a major character? Or is Nurse like Septa Mordane, killed by Joffrey? (I realize Mordane was not really a wet nurse, but she did oversee "treasures" by being in charge of the Stark girls at Winterfell.) Does the Tyrion / Nurse dynamic foreshadow something about Gilly's fate? She is the most fully developed wet nurse character in the books so far.

[A new thought: there could also be a pun on "nurse" and "runes". Runes are another mysterious symbol in the books.]

Maybe there will be more mushroom-related activity in Tyrion's arc in TWoW and the meaning of the mushroom symbol will become clearer.

Lanna and the Sailor's Wife. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/26/2017 at 9:22 AM, Angel Eyes said:

His road was tough just by being born.

That's what makes his character so tragic. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/29/2017 at 2:54 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

If memory serves, the readers know that Tyrion killed Tywin, but no characters know that for sure. Tyrion could just say that Varys did it. It would be a case of 'he said, he said.'

He was found guilty before the gods in a sacred trial by battle. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

38 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

He was found guilty before the gods in a sacred trial by battle. 

That was for Joffrey.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

He should have been knighted for his actions at the Blackwater, and Tywin was wrong to deny him the rock. But now, he will have to do whatever it takes to secure the rock and pay the Second Sons. A Lannister always pays his debts. 

Dang it.   I was so hoping he would be able to round up his own little gang like the Raven's Teeth and just cross bow everyone.  

Tyrion is a wonderful character, denied so much yet still has so much to give.  I hope he doesn't care when it's time to cash in on the Westerlands.