What is Quaithe really?

[Bloodstone Emperor]

Throughout ASoIaF Dany is guided by a hooded shadow binder Quiathe who claims she is from “the shadow”. I was recently seeing that Quiathe never actually interacts with any other characters, and that in one scene Quiathe states that nobody would actually see her if they were to walk into Dany and her conversation and says that she is not actually there. I’m wondering if Quaithe was ever really in Dany’s presence at all, if she is broadcasting herself to Dany and is real but somewhere else, or if she is a figment of Dany’s imagination.

Sorry for the confusion I see I was wrong but outside of Qarth Dany only sees her in dreams and hallucinations. So I she is real, but I am still not sure about her general  influence and who she really is.

[Seasmoke65]

Quiathe is propably red priest.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

53 minutes ago, Bloodstone Emperor said:

Throughout ASoIaF Dany is guided by a hooded shadow binder Quiathe who claims she is from “the shadow”. I was recently seeing that Quiathe never actually interacts with any other characters, and that in one scene Quiathe states that nobody would actually see her if they were to walk into Dany and her conversation and says that she is not actually there. I’m wondering if Quaithe was ever really in Dany’s presence at all, if she is broadcasting herself to Dany and is real but somewhere else, or if she is a figment of Dany’s imagination.

It isn’t true that she never interacts with anyone but Dany...

Quote

 

"Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power."

When Quaithe too was gone, Ser Jorah said, "She speaks truly, my queen . . . though I like her no more than the others."

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

She meets her for real in Qarth.  She then appears to Dany in dreams while Dany is in Mereen using a glass candle.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

With Quaithe I tend to believe she is a real person that Danerys met in Qarth, but her appearances in ADWD are all hallucinations of Danerys' - not visitations via glass candle or some form of magic.  I have no real evidence for why I believe this to be the case in ADWD, it is just the impression I had when reading the book.

[300 H&H Magnum]

Dany's retinue has seen Quaithe.  She's real. 

[The Fattest Leech]

11 hours ago, Bloodstone Emperor said:

Throughout ASoIaF Dany is guided by a hooded shadow binder Quiathe who claims she is from “the shadow”. I was recently seeing that Quiathe never actually interacts with any other characters, and that in one scene Quiathe states that nobody would actually see her if they were to walk into Dany and her conversation and says that she is not actually there. I’m wondering if Quaithe was ever really in Dany’s presence at all, if she is broadcasting herself to Dany and is real but somewhere else, or if she is a figment of Dany’s imagination.

Just something I mentioned about Quaithe in another thread recently.

I always thought of Patchface as the parallel to Quaithe.

They are both riddlers

• Patchface had come to them as a boy. Lord Steffon of cherished memory had found him in Volantis, across the narrow sea. The king—the old king, Aerys II Targaryen, who had not been quite so mad in those days—had sent his lordship to seek a bride for Prince Rhaegar, who had no sisters to wed. "We have found the most splendid fool," he wrote Cressen, a fortnight before he was to return home from his fruitless mission. "Only a boy, yet nimble as a monkey and witty as a dozen courtiers. He juggles and riddles and does magic, and he can sing prettily in four tongues. We have bought his freedom and hope to bring him home with us. Robert will be delighted with him, and perhaps in time he will even teach Stannis how to laugh."
• "Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish," the fool muttered at Davos. He bobbed his head, and his bells clanged and chimed and sang. "I know, I know, oh oh oh."
• Moonlight shone in the woman's eyes. "To show you the way."
  "I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow." She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. "I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—"
• The sun's son. A shiver went through her. "Shadows and whispers." What else had Quaithe said? The pale mare and the sun's son. There was a lion in it too, and a dragon. Or am I the dragon? "Beware the perfumed seneschal." That she remembered. "Dreams and prophecies. Why must they always be in riddles? I hate this. Oh, leave me, ser. Tomorrow is my wedding day."
• The pale mare. Daenerys sighed. Quaithe warned me of the pale mare's coming. She told me of the Dornish prince as well, the sun's son. She told me much and more, but all in riddles. "I cannot rely on plague to save me from my enemies. Set Pretty Meris free. At once."

Both have masked faces

• At the top of the steps Davos heard a soft jingle of bells that could only herald Patchface. The princess's fool was waiting outside the maester's door for her like a faithful hound. Dough-soft and slump-shouldered, his broad face tattooed in a motley pattern of red and green squares, Patchface wore a helm made of a rack of deer antlers strapped to a tin bucket. A dozen bells hung from the tines and rang when he moved . . . which meant constantly, since the fool seldom stood still. He jingled and jangled his way everywhere he went; small wonder that Pylos had exiled him from Shireen's lessons.
• Last of the three seekers to depart was Quaithe the shadowbinder. From her Dany received only a warning. "Beware," the woman in the red lacquer mask said.
• Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

Both sing a type of song. Quaithe with her prophecies as Patchface with his prophecies

• Over the clatter of knife and plate and the low mutter of table talk, he heard Patchface singing, ". . . dance, my lord, dance my lord," to the accompaniment of jangling cowbells. The same dreadful song he'd sung this morning. "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord." The lower tables were crowded with knights, archers, and sellsword captains, tearing apart loaves of black bread to soak in their fish stew. Here there was no loud laughter, no raucous shouting such as marred the dignity of other men's feasts; Lord Stannis did not permit such.

Both have a life -vs- death message

• Quaithe with her rebirth of dragons talk
• Khaleesi, better a man should swallow scorpions than trust in the spawn of shadows, who dare not show their face beneath the sun. It is known.
• The boy washed up on the third day. Maester Cressen had come down with the rest, to help put names to the dead. When they found the fool he was naked, his skin white and wrinkled and powdered with wet sand. Cressen had thought him another corpse, but when Jommy grabbed his ankles to drag him off to the burial wagon, the boy coughed water and sat up. To his dying day, Jommy had sworn that Patchface's flesh was clammy cold.
  No one ever explained those two days the fool had been lost in the sea. The fisherfolk liked to say a mermaid had taught him to breathe water in return for his seed. Patchface himself had said nothing. The witty, clever lad that Lord Steffon had written of never reached Storm's End; the boy they found was someone else, broken in body and mind, hardly capable of speech, much less of wit. Yet his fool's face left no doubt of who he was.

Both are questioned to be "dangerous"

• Melisandre's face darkened. "That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood."
  A wonder you haven't had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen's ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. "You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?"
• And there was Quaithe of the Shadow, that strange woman in the red lacquer mask with all her cryptic counsel. Was she an enemy too, or only a dangerous friend? Dany could not say.

and both give prophetic messages in the way of (confusing) directions

• Dany's wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. "Where would you have me go?" she asked.
  "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."
  Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. "Will the Asshai'i give me an army?" she demanded. "Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?"
• "Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."
• Patchface jumped up. "I will lead it!" His bells rang merrily. "We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh."

And this from the World of Ice and Fire:

• Only shadowbinders and fools are willing to eat the twisted and deformed fish from the river Ash near Asshai.

And I think both are being overlooked by Jon and Danaerys as the real story guides to follow.

Maybe

[Aegon VII]

Ashara Dayne 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

What or who?  She is human.  Who she is?  Someone very interested in Dany's business-Shiera Seastar.

[DJ Jazzy Joff]

Ha, I must be the only person to believe that Quaithe is simply a shadowbinder of Asshai.

Her motive is something else entirely, but her identity is just Quaithe.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/27/2017 at 10:35 PM, Aegon VII said:

Ashara Dayne 

Bullocks. Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. It is known. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

34 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

What or who?  She is human.  Who she is?  Someone very interested in Dany's business-Shiera Seastar.

It is known. 

[Nezza86]

Is Shiera Seastar mentioned that much in the 5 novels? I know Bloodraven mentions a woman he "desired" and Barristan Selmy says Bloodraven and Bittersteel both loved Shiera Seastar. But I can't think of anywhere else shes named or any description of her or hint that she used black magic within the books. I thought that all came from the supporting material. I don't think George would leave her out so much in the 5 novels if she has such a big influence over Dany.

At the end of ADWD Dany has a dream and sees Quaithe and her face is covered in stars or something like that. Granted that could suggest Shiera but the other candidate is Ashara. The thing that swings it for me though is the mask. Ashara has a pretty recognisable face, and Jorah would know who she was if she didn't have it. No-one in Dany's party in Qarth would recognise Shiera.

Plus if you go down the Ashara-is-Danys-mother road, you can see why she would hide her face. Barristan tells Dany (or maybe he just thinks it) that she looks a lot like Ashara so it might be obvious if we get a description of her face. And if Ashara did fake her suicide to disappear she might naturally take to wearing a mask so there's no chance she could be recognised.

I hope Ashara is alive though since she could shed some light on the harrenhal tourney and what happened between her and Ned.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

It's Ashara Dayne. She let's Dany and her people see her in Qarth but she can't in Meereen because Barristan is with Dany now. Quaithe/Ashara is afraid Barristan will recognize her by her ankles or wrists or something weird like that and then he'll start stalking her again leaving Dany unprotected.

[Rufus Snow]

On 12/28/2017 at 3:14 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Just something I mentioned about Quaithe in another thread recently.

I always thought of Patchface as the parallel to Quaithe.

They are both riddlers

• Patchface had come to them as a boy. Lord Steffon of cherished memory had found him in Volantis, across the narrow sea. The king—the old king, Aerys II Targaryen, who had not been quite so mad in those days—had sent his lordship to seek a bride for Prince Rhaegar, who had no sisters to wed. "We have found the most splendid fool," he wrote Cressen, a fortnight before he was to return home from his fruitless mission. "Only a boy, yet nimble as a monkey and witty as a dozen courtiers. He juggles and riddles and does magic, and he can sing prettily in four tongues. We have bought his freedom and hope to bring him home with us. Robert will be delighted with him, and perhaps in time he will even teach Stannis how to laugh."
• "Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish," the fool muttered at Davos. He bobbed his head, and his bells clanged and chimed and sang. "I know, I know, oh oh oh."
• Moonlight shone in the woman's eyes. "To show you the way."
  "I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow." She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. "I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—"
• The sun's son. A shiver went through her. "Shadows and whispers." What else had Quaithe said? The pale mare and the sun's son. There was a lion in it too, and a dragon. Or am I the dragon? "Beware the perfumed seneschal." That she remembered. "Dreams and prophecies. Why must they always be in riddles? I hate this. Oh, leave me, ser. Tomorrow is my wedding day."
• The pale mare. Daenerys sighed. Quaithe warned me of the pale mare's coming. She told me of the Dornish prince as well, the sun's son. She told me much and more, but all in riddles. "I cannot rely on plague to save me from my enemies. Set Pretty Meris free. At once."

Both have masked faces

• At the top of the steps Davos heard a soft jingle of bells that could only herald Patchface. The princess's fool was waiting outside the maester's door for her like a faithful hound. Dough-soft and slump-shouldered, his broad face tattooed in a motley pattern of red and green squares, Patchface wore a helm made of a rack of deer antlers strapped to a tin bucket. A dozen bells hung from the tines and rang when he moved . . . which meant constantly, since the fool seldom stood still. He jingled and jangled his way everywhere he went; small wonder that Pylos had exiled him from Shireen's lessons.
• Last of the three seekers to depart was Quaithe the shadowbinder. From her Dany received only a warning. "Beware," the woman in the red lacquer mask said.
• Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

Both sing a type of song. Quaithe with her prophecies as Patchface with his prophecies

• Over the clatter of knife and plate and the low mutter of table talk, he heard Patchface singing, ". . . dance, my lord, dance my lord," to the accompaniment of jangling cowbells. The same dreadful song he'd sung this morning. "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord." The lower tables were crowded with knights, archers, and sellsword captains, tearing apart loaves of black bread to soak in their fish stew. Here there was no loud laughter, no raucous shouting such as marred the dignity of other men's feasts; Lord Stannis did not permit such.

Both have a life -vs- death message

• Quaithe with her rebirth of dragons talk
• Khaleesi, better a man should swallow scorpions than trust in the spawn of shadows, who dare not show their face beneath the sun. It is known.
• The boy washed up on the third day. Maester Cressen had come down with the rest, to help put names to the dead. When they found the fool he was naked, his skin white and wrinkled and powdered with wet sand. Cressen had thought him another corpse, but when Jommy grabbed his ankles to drag him off to the burial wagon, the boy coughed water and sat up. To his dying day, Jommy had sworn that Patchface's flesh was clammy cold.
  No one ever explained those two days the fool had been lost in the sea. The fisherfolk liked to say a mermaid had taught him to breathe water in return for his seed. Patchface himself had said nothing. The witty, clever lad that Lord Steffon had written of never reached Storm's End; the boy they found was someone else, broken in body and mind, hardly capable of speech, much less of wit. Yet his fool's face left no doubt of who he was.

Both are questioned to be "dangerous"

• Melisandre's face darkened. "That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood."
  A wonder you haven't had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen's ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. "You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?"
• And there was Quaithe of the Shadow, that strange woman in the red lacquer mask with all her cryptic counsel. Was she an enemy too, or only a dangerous friend? Dany could not say.

and both give prophetic messages in the way of (confusing) directions

• Dany's wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. "Where would you have me go?" she asked.
  "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."
  Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. "Will the Asshai'i give me an army?" she demanded. "Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?"
• "Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."
• Patchface jumped up. "I will lead it!" His bells rang merrily. "We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh."

And this from the World of Ice and Fire:

• Only shadowbinders and fools are willing to eat the twisted and deformed fish from the river Ash near Asshai.

And I think both are being overlooked by Jon and Danaerys as the real story guides to follow.

Maybe

That's an interesting parallel that I hadn't considered before.

Also consider "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord." Staying could be expressed as being bound to a place, so this could be a reference to shadowbinding, too.

I'd also wondered about the implications about Patchface possibly being a Drowned Man now. That chucks an extra log on the fire, doesn't it? He seems to draw prophetic powers from the sea, although not having been raised amongst the Ironborn he would lack their religious training, so his 'gift' is wild and untamed. So, should we be looking for more parallels to Aeron Damphair, too? Because if we do, then there's the implication that these characters are working against the interests of their respective 'monarchs'. I'm pretty sure Euron would consider Damphair 'dangerous', though I'd have to re-search the text for evidence. Could there then be other figures in other courts fulfilling similar roles that might help to firm up a pattern?

I'm not so sure about the 'masks' being a significant link, considering that all Asshai'i are reported to wear masks, and all Volantene slaves are tattooed - unless we can make a case linking Asshai and Volantis more generally? It's a pity so little is known about Asshai and the Shadow, though of course there is at least one version of the origin of dragons as being from the Shadow...

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

Is Shiera Seastar mentioned that much in the 5 novels? I know Bloodraven mentions a woman he "desired" and Barristan Selmy says Bloodraven and Bittersteel both loved Shiera Seastar. But I can't think of anywhere else shes named or any description of her or hint that she used black magic within the books. I thought that all came from the supporting material. I don't think George would leave her out so much in the 5 novels if she has such a big influence over Dany.

At the end of ADWD Dany has a dream and sees Quaithe and her face is covered in stars or something like that. Granted that could suggest Shiera but the other candidate is Ashara. The thing that swings it for me though is the mask. Ashara has a pretty recognisable face, and Jorah would know who she was if she didn't have it. No-one in Dany's party in Qarth would recognise Shiera.

Plus if you go down the Ashara-is-Danys-mother road, you can see why she would hide her face. Barristan tells Dany (or maybe he just thinks it) that she looks a lot like Ashara so it might be obvious if we get a description of her face. And if Ashara did fake her suicide to disappear she might naturally take to wearing a mask so there's no chance she could be recognised.

I hope Ashara is alive though since she could shed some light on the harrenhal tourney and what happened between her and Ned.

The support for Shiera Seastar being Quaithe comes from two quotes, this...

Quote

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask.

Daenerys III, Clash 40

And this...

Quote

“You’ve known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?”

“Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven’s paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty."

The Sworn Sword

Are there any possible textual hints toward Ashara? 

[Zapho]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The support for Shiera Seastar being Quaithe comes from two quotes, this...

Daenerys III, Clash 40

And this...

The Sworn Sword

Are there any possible textual hints toward Ashara? 

Those two quotes aren't really conclusive evidence imo. Bathing in blood to keep young is a common slander people like to heave on femmes fatales. The same thing is rumoured about Daenerys. If Lady Shiera had a reputation for dabbling in the black arts, she probably was no more than fond of reading. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

12 minutes ago, Zapho said:

Those two quotes aren't really conclusive evidence imo. Bathing in blood to keep young is a common slander people like to heave on femmes fatales. The same thing is rumoured about Daenerys. If Lady Shiera had a reputation for dabbling in the black arts, she probably was no more than fond of reading. 

Except with Dany it’s just misconstruing the facts... she bathed Drogo in blood... literal bath of blood, with sorcery. The goal being to rejuvenate him.  It’s not that far off...

And Shiera did have a relationship with Bloodraven, who we know worked some magic of his own. And I would contend, is/was solemnly up to no good.

Put together with the odd bits pointing at Mel being far older than she appears, so it might really be possible to “stay young”, or at least live a long time, I don’t think it’s as totally baseless as the accusation first appears.

[Nezza86]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The support for Shiera Seastar being Quaithe comes from two quotes, this...

  Quote

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask

Daenerys III, Clash 40

And this...

“You’ve known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?”

“Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven’s paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty."

The Sworn Sword

Are there any possible textual hints toward Ashara? 

I discounted anything that comes from any of the books that aren't AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC or ADWD. I don't think GRRM will rely on us having read the rest of the supporting text to fully understand the series. I'll feel a bit cheated if at the end of ADOS it turns out the answers were actually hidden within the Dunk and Egg series or the other short stories.

So that leaves you with "wet and shiny eyes" which i think you mean is a reference to the sea (wet) and star (shiny). I don't buy it, its too vague for me. The only instance I saw of a symbolic dream or vision that could allude to her identity is in Dany's last chapter in ADWD where it says Quaithe's mask appeared like starlight (or something to that effect). As I said above that could be a reference to Shiera but IMO Ashara has more plot armor.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

Is Shiera Seastar mentioned that much in the 5 novels? I know Bloodraven mentions a woman he "desired" and Barristan Selmy says Bloodraven and Bittersteel both loved Shiera Seastar. But I can't think of anywhere else shes named or any description of her or hint that she used black magic within the books. I thought that all came from the supporting material. I don't think George would leave her out so much in the 5 novels if she has such a big influence over Dany.

I'm actually not convinced Quaithe is anyone other than Quaithe. I just wanted to reply to this.

By my count Shiera is only mentioned by name once. But, I'd like to point out that Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers is only mentioned three times before Bran meets him. The first occurence doesn't happen until aFfC. We all know he became a prominent figure in one of our main character's arc.

With that in mind I don't think we should eliminate the Quaithe = Shiera idea based on the amount of times she is mentioned.