The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

[Kalbear]

Continue!

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I suspect you never cared about it until you felt a need to defend TLJ by bringing down your esteem for the previous films rather than simply defending TLJ on its merits.

I didn't care about it when I watched it when I was 6, no. When I figured out about things like FTL travel and how big space is, it bugged me. 

I don't need to defend TLJ by bringing down TESB, but the notion that the OT is free of plot holes is ludicrous, as is the notion that plot holes mean you can't enjoy a movie. 

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The Pyrrhic school of film criticism is interesting, though. 

So is whitewashing the previous movies to justify how you feel about them. I loved GI Joe and Transformers as a kid, but watching them now it's painful how bad they were. I can recognize the plot holes and hilarity of some of the things in previous movies - or even how the prequels changed those - and still enjoy them because of how they made me feel. 

Same goes for the Rey as Mary Sue thing - Luke is precisely the same in the prior movies. He can singlehandedly take down an AT-AT with basically no force training, he can obliterate the Death Star without using a targeting computer, he can fly an X-Wing because he flew his version of a Cessna at home. That's what he is, and that's what Star Wars is. 

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(In any case, TESB was the second film in the franchise, with a universe of potential before it, and it didn't try to explain some things, which meant that whatever explanation they developed after the fact -- backup hyperdrive, whatever -- would be acceptable. TLJ literally creates something new -- hyperspace tracking, which is fine -- and then by the very rules it introduces for this new thing shoots itself in the foot with what turns out to be an idiot plot. This is bad writing.)

I think that's fine as a criticism. I don't see how the plot is particularly idiotic exactly, but I'm sure they could have spent a whole lot of time geeking out about how it works and setting up the rules of it and making sure everyone's well apprised of the scientific and systemic principles behind hyperspace tracking.

I think that would have been very, very boring. 

Ultimately I think one of the things that you're selling short is the First Order's total tactical and strategic incompetence. And I don't like that, personally; I like villains who are smart and heroes who are smarter. But the First Order - just like the Empire - is incredibly incompetent largely due to their fear of authority and their unwillingness to do anything outside rules or the chain of command. Hux is an idiot and simply wants to chase them down because that's how imaginative he is. He's a sadist and wants to see them suffer, slowly, not because it's more efficient or the only thing he can do, but because he can. 

Does that suck that the villains have to be incompetent and overconfident in order for the heroes to even have a chance? Yes, yes it does. But that's also what Star Wars is about. 

[Eggegg]

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Same goes for the Rey as Mary Sue thing - Luke is precisely the same in the prior movies. He can singlehandedly take down an AT-AT with basically no force training, he can obliterate the Death Star without using a targeting computer, he can fly an X-Wing because he flew his version of a Cessna at home. That's what he is, and that's what Star Wars is. 

My initial reaction to TFA and TLJ was that Rey was so stupidly over powered that she probably was basically a Mary Sue. It seemed ridiculous that she could take on Kylo Ren in a lightsaber fight and beat him having never swung a sword in anger in her life. She also seems to be the most incredible mechanic and pilot the galaxy has ever seen. 

(By the way I don't buy the 'look single handedly took down the Death Star' argument either as making him some sort of Mary Sue. Luke was always a good pilot, something he inherited from Anakin, and that 'lucky shot' was basically the force acting through him as far as I'm concerned. In Empire he was pretty much beaten by Vader, and also was mostly pretty crappy at learning, certainly not picking up jedi mastery in 20 mins like Rey.)

But anyway, when I look at it, Rey actually didn't really DO that much in TLJ. She almost got destroyed by Snoke, and it was Kylo Ren who basically saved her. She didn't single handedly save everyone, seeing as it was really Luke who did that. 

So, yeah she's overpowered and it lacks quite a bit of logic, especially as the tension in the OT was that it was the Dark Side that was really powerful, and that was fuelling Vader and occasionally Luke, but she's not really a Mary Sue.

25 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Does that suck that the villains have to be incompetent and overconfident in order for the heroes to even have a chance? Yes, yes it does. But that's also what Star Wars is about. 

 I think the incompetence in the OT worked because it had this reflection on Hitler and the Nazis, or Stalin and the communists, everyone trying to follow orders but terrified of failing. It was a deeply inefficient system, but led by some huge powerful figures. I guess it made sense because the Empire was already enormous and unwieldy. But here the First Order rebuilt itself from the ashes.. something that takes skill and a level of genius. But so far everyone involved is a total moron, and a cartoonish moron to boot. It doesn't really fit together.

 

[Kalbear]

25 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

My initial reaction to TFA and TLJ was that Rey was so stupidly over powered that she probably was basically a Mary Sue. It seemed ridiculous that she could take on Kylo Ren in a lightsaber fight and beat him having never swung a sword in anger in her life. She also seems to be the most incredible mechanic and pilot the galaxy has ever seen. 

(By the way I don't buy the 'look single handedly took down the Death Star' argument either as making him some sort of Mary Sue. Luke was always a good pilot, something he inherited from Anakin, and that 'lucky shot' was basically the force acting through him as far as I'm concerned. In Empire he was pretty much beaten by Vader, and also was mostly pretty crappy at learning, certainly not picking up jedi mastery in 20 mins like Rey.)

Naturally you would think that. This isn't really surprising. 

Luke was a good pilot, but there's obviously a difference between flying T16s at home and flying an X-Wing. I'd love to see how someone inherits being able to fly a faster-than-light spacecraft. And if you have no problem with the Force acting through Luke, well, TFA and TLJ explicitly state that this is what is happening with Rey. Seriously, they do so several times. Rey only succeeds in her tasks when she lets go and lets the Force guide her actions, including her fight with Ren. She even states 'the force' when she does this. 

It seems ludicrous that Anakin can take down the entire droid fleet when he's 9 years old and has never been in a spacecraft, but, well, he did. Again, Force. That's what it does. If anything, TFA is too explicit about saying that this is the reason. 

25 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

 I think the incompetence in the OT worked because it had this reflection on Hitler and the Nazis, or Stalin and the communists, everyone trying to follow orders but terrified of failing. It was a deeply inefficient system, but led by some huge powerful figures. I guess it made sense because the Empire was already enormous and unwieldy. But here the First Order rebuilt itself from the ashes.. something that takes skill and a level of genius. But so far everyone involved is a total moron, and a cartoonish moron to boot. It doesn't really fit together.

The First Order didn't come from nothing; it came from the very large remnants of a galactic empire looking for the same kind of authoritarian rule that it had previously. There's a reason it looks so much like the Empire and uses the same kinds of weaponry and ships - because it is the Empire. It didn't come out of nowhere, any more than the rebellion did previously. 

[Eggegg]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Naturally you would think that. This isn't really surprising. 

??

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Luke was a good pilot, but there's obviously a difference between flying T16s at home and flying an X-Wing. I'd love to see how someone inherits being able to fly a faster-than-light spacecraft. And if you have no problem with the Force acting through Luke, well, TFA and TLJ explicitly state that this is what is happening with Rey. Seriously, they do so several times. Rey only succeeds in her tasks when she lets go and lets the Force guide her actions, including her fight with Ren. She even states 'the force' when she does this. 

Luke takes down the Death Star when he basically lets the Force take over, its one key moment which makes his shot 'lucky'. It feels quite different to a complete beginner beating someone who is heavily trained in a fight. Luke never really felt all that powerful in the OT, he was barely able to beat Vader, and when he did display skills in fighting, it was after at least some period of training. 

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It seems ludicrous that Anakin can take down the entire droid fleet when he's 9 years old and has never been in a spacecraft, but, well, he did. Again, Force. That's what it does. If anything, TFA is too explicit about saying that this is the reason. 

Anakin is definitely some sort of Mary Sue in Phantom Menace, but that entire movie and that trilogy is an abomination, and I barely consider it canon any more. I mean, do midi chlorians still exist in the canon?! 

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The First Order didn't come from nothing; it came from the very large remnants of a galactic empire looking for the same kind of authoritarian rule that it had previously. There's a reason it looks so much like the Empire and uses the same kinds of weaponry and ships - because it is the Empire. It didn't come out of nowhere, any more than the rebellion did previously. 

Still, it had to rebuild itself from the shattered fragments after RotJ, up against the new Republic. For it to do so whilst being controlled by seemingly incompetent nincompoops doesn't sit well. I mean, the First Order is basically a lazy attempt by JJ Abrams to engineer some of the magic of the OT by creating the same underdog dynamic, so I don't really care that much, the problems were already in place when TLJ started.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

??

Given your attitudes towards women in other threads, that you would find a woman to be a Mary Sue but not Luke is not surprising in the least.

7 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Luke takes down the Death Star when he basically lets the Force take over, its one key moment which makes his shot 'lucky'. It feels quite different to a complete beginner beating someone who is heavily trained in a fight. Luke never really felt all that powerful in the OT, he was barely able to beat Vader, and when he did display skills in fighting, it was after at least some period of training. 

Why does fighting someone else using the Force seem different than piloting a spacecraft through the Force? Force users don't think about, say, blocking blaster shots; they reach out and do it. Same goes for fights. This is as old as ANH. 

As to Luke beating Vader or not, did it ever occur to you that this was because the Force had a say in that as well? I mean, let's say Luke does overcome Vader. He kills Vader, never finding out the truth about his father, and then gets crushed later by the Emperor. Luke had to get beaten by Vader at that point, just like Luke had to be saved from Vader earlier. 

Remember that Rey is basically a replacement for Luke Skywalker as far as the Force goes - which means that her power level isn't on par with Ren's - it's on par with Snoke's. Snoke is the one that Rey is awakening for. Snoke is the one to balance. 

7 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Still, it had to rebuild itself from the shattered fragments after RotJ, up against the new Republic. For it to do so whilst being controlled by seemingly incompetent nincompoops doesn't sit well.

The books apparently get into this some, but the general gist is that while the Empire was defeated it wasn't remotely routed, and there was a LOT of troops, materials, loyal servants, etc out there. The Rebellion didn't exactly have a ton of ships. While lots of systems defected to the new republic, a whole lot more didn't. 

7 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I mean, the First Order is basically a lazy attempt by JJ Abrams to engineer some of the magic of the OT by creating the same underdog dynamic, so I don't really care that much, the problems were already in place when TLJ started.

I think this is really one of the big cruxes of the problem, which is that TFA was too much a copy of what had happened already and we had to deal with that again. Johnson has to take a lot of points - Rey being special, Luke fucking off to an island in the middle of nowhere while the galaxy is going bonkers and his best friend got killed by his student, the republic being obliterated, Snoke coming out of nowhere and being super badass despite having no real storyline - and had to do something with it. Like Hamill's complaints about Luke are reasonable and fair (ish...both Yoda and Obi-Wan hid out for two decades while the Empire went and killed everything), but once it's established that he's been missing forever and hasn't done shit to help out and that Ren was his failed student, you've got to come up with some reason why Luke is hiding and not talking to a single person and not letting anyone know why he's gone. 

Because him searching for an answer to Snoke? That doesn't make sense as far as his being super hiding from everything and everyone, or not telling Leia. Him being Rey's dad? Same issue, and it makes Luke even more of an asshole, as much an asshole as Dumbledore was for leaving Harry with the Dursleys. There just aren't that many places to go that make Luke heroic. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

18 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

??

Luke takes down the Death Star when he basically lets the Force take over, its one key moment which makes his shot 'lucky'. It feels quite different to a complete beginner beating someone who is heavily trained in a fight. Luke never really felt all that powerful in the OT, he was barely able to beat Vader, and when he did display skills in fighting, it was after at least some period of training. 

 

Still, it had to rebuild itself from the shattered fragments after RotJ, up against the new Republic. For it to do so whilst being controlled by seemingly incompetent nincompoops doesn't sit well. I mean, the First Order is basically a lazy attempt by JJ Abrams to engineer some of the magic of the OT by creating the same underdog dynamic, so I don't really care that much, the problems were already in place when TLJ started.

1. I think they establish that Rey actually has had some sort of combat training (e.g., she is pretty handy with that staff of hers).  That is, given what she was doing - scavenging on Jakku - prepared her better for this sort of thing than being a water farmer's kid who happened to be handy with droids on Tatooine.  So I don't think Rey is a complete beginner at all - quite the opposite in fact.

2.  Maybe they will establish this better at some point, but I basically saw this as an outgrowth of the fact that the empire was very, very, big, and was building on an already established bureaucratic substrate of the Old Republic.  The Rebellion, in contrast, suffered from a common problem with Rebellions - no real experience in governing.  I mean, they retconned a bunch of celebrations across the galaxy at the end of ROTJ, but do we think that was the case everywhere?  Do we think that the Rebel Alliance had the materiel, and importantly the will, after years of war to properly consolidate its winnings?  That is, the Rebel Alliance may have wanted a Washington, but they got a Snoke instead.

[Maithanet]

Saw the movie last night, and was left feeling more disappointed than I ever have been from a Star Wars movie.  I can recognize it was a better movie than Episodes I and II, but that is faint praise indeed.

Here's the main criticism I have:  TLJ makes the Star Wars Universe feel small. 

Star Wars is supposed to feel big!  There are hundreds of intelligent races, thousands of inhabited planets.  But what does TLJ have?  Constant confrontations between the same people.  The leaders of an entire empire micromanaging even the smallest details.  A galaxy wide rebellion reduced to just a dozen or so people.  What the hell is happening?

 - How can the Rebellion be reduced to just 300 members?  WTF?  The Order is reinstating the racist, fascist policies of the Empire!  Why aren't there hundreds of races in open rebellion against them once Starkiller Base is destroyed?  It seems like there's only like a couple of aliens in the entire rebellion now.  Where there hell is everybody?!

 - Why is General Hux coming down to personally deal with two infiltrators on his star destroyer?  He's like the #2 guy in the Order, isn't he busy?

 - Why are Hux and Ren BOTH in the same AT-AT on the front lines?  Are they just stupid?

It just made everything feel small.  This isn't a battle to control the fate of the galaxy, it was just a few hundred Fascists trying to destroy a few dozen freedom fighters.  That's more like power struggle in a mid-sized high school, not the entire galaxy.  If that's all the Rebels they can find, they've already lost anyway. 

[Eggegg]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Given your attitudes towards women in other threads, that you would find a woman to be a Mary Sue but not Luke is not surprising in the least.

Wow. I'd be interested to know what you think my attitudes are. But obviously not here.

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Why does fighting someone else using the Force seem different than piloting a spacecraft through the Force? Force users don't think about, say, blocking blaster shots; they reach out and do it. Same goes for fights. This is as old as ANH. 

Pressing a button at the correct time so that a photon torpedo hits a target could easily be described as 'luck', and luck in some ways could be described as a supernatural force guiding peoples hands. I'm not sure Rey beating the crap out of Kylo Ren could be described as lucky... it was because she was suddenly amazing at fighting for no real reason. It is very different. 

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Pressing a button at the correct time so that a photon torpedo hits a target could easily be described as 'luck', and luck in some ways could be described as a supernatural force guiding peoples hands. I'm not sure Rey beating the crap out of Kylo Ren could be described as lucky... it was because she was suddenly amazing at fighting for no real reason. It is very different. 

Again, it's not just 'pushing a button at the correct time'. It's doing that while flying down a trench at incredible speeds, keeping things steady, avoiding being shot, blowing up the right things, etc. Same goes with him blocking the blasts while blind; is that 'luck'? In my experience there's no such thing as luck.

As to Rey being suddenly amazing for 'no real reason' - we established early on that she's good at fighting in hand to hand. But even then she's pretty crap at it and is getting her ass handed to her by Ren (who is holding back somewhat, same as he did with Finn)...until she decides to give herself to the Force. She even says that in the movie, explicitly. How is this any different than what Luke does deflecting shots from the practice droid? How is it different than Luke knowing exactly how to destroy an AT-AT? Or how Luke somehow was able to expertly use a lightsaber against Vader despite having literally no practice with an actual lightsaber until he got to Jabba's palace? Or how the blind guy manages to avoid every single shot and get to the right control, or is able to shoot a blaster and hit a TIE and blow it out of space?

Again, this is what the Force does. Obi-Wan says that it partially controls your actions. It obeys your commands too - but only in a general sense. So Rey can tell the Force 'beat Ren', but the specifics of it are left to the Force to guide. 

[Corvinus85]

20 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Saw the movie last night, and was left feeling more disappointed than I ever have been from a Star Wars movie.  I can recognize it was a better movie than Episodes I and II, but that is faint praise indeed.

Here's the main criticism I have:  TLJ makes the Star Wars Universe feel small. 

Star Wars is supposed to feel big!  There are hundreds of intelligent races, thousands of inhabited planets.  But what does TLJ have?  Constant confrontations between the same people.  The leaders of an entire empire micromanaging even the smallest details.  A galaxy wide rebellion reduced to just a dozen or so people.  What the hell is happening?

 - How can the Rebellion be reduced to just 300 members?  WTF?  The Order is reinstating the racist, fascist policies of the Empire!  Why aren't there hundreds of races in open rebellion against them once Starkiller Base is destroyed?  It seems like there's only like a couple of aliens in the entire rebellion now.  Where there hell is everybody?!

 - Why is General Hux coming down to personally deal with two infiltrators on his star destroyer?  He's like the #2 guy in the Order, isn't he busy?

 - Why are Hux and Ren BOTH in the same AT-AT on the front lines?  Are they just stupid?

It just made everything feel small.  This isn't a battle to control the fate of the galaxy, it was just a few hundred Fascists trying to destroy a few dozen freedom fighters.  That's more like power struggle in a mid-sized high school, not the entire galaxy.  If that's all the Rebels they can find, they've already lost anyway. 

Actually Hux and Ren are in the shuttle that hovers above, so call it a C&C position. But I agree with you that this film made the universe feel small. 

Part of the problem is that unlike the time jumps we've had in previous films, there really was no time jump between this one and TFA. The First Order had succeeded in destroying the Republic government and throwing it into chaos, and now they want to destroy the Resistance (since they knew the location of their base from TFA) before the Resistance can muster any kind of big movement. So because of this, the plot moves from the grand scale of things to just a small, yet critical moment in the conflict. It really isn't that different from TESB, if you think about it. TESB starts big (somewhat), with the Rebels from Yavin having fled to Hoth, only to be discovered and attacked; then the whole plot moves away from the Rebellion vs. the Empire, and concentrates just on the main characters, despite having seen much of the rebel force escape Hoth.

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Actually Hux and Ren are in the shuttle that hovers above, so call it a C&C position. But I agree with you that this film made the universe feel small. 

In some ways that's even worse.  The two most important members of the Order are together in a lightly armed shuttle in a combat zone and they order all fighter cover to chase after the Falcon. 

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

In some ways that's even worse.  The two most important members of the Order are together in a lightly armed shuttle in a combat zone and they order all fighter cover to chase after the Falcon. 

There are a lot of weak command decisions in this film. Captain Canady, who commanded the dreadnought, who, initially gives you the impression he is a far more capable commander than Hux, orders the big guns to first attack the partially vacated base on the planet, instead of hitting the main rebels' main vehicle of escape. The land base could have been destroyed at leisure after the enemy's mobile assets had been taken down.

Oh, I can't wait for the HISHE video.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Just now, Corvinus said:

There are a lot of weak command decisions in this film. Captain Canady, who commanded the dreadnought, who, initially gives you the impression he is a far more capable commander than Hux, orders the big guns to first attack the partially vacated base on the planet, instead of hitting the main rebels' main vehicle of escape. The land base could have been destroyed at leisure after the enemy's mobile assets had been taken down.

Oh, I can't wait for the HISHE video.

This seems to be a feature of the Star Wars universe. 

 

[Maithanet]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

There are a lot of weak command decisions in this film.

This is true, but the Order being generally incompetent is a separate issue, and I have less of a problem with that (although I'm still not a fan). 

My problem is that when you have the #1 and #2 guy in the same ship making tactical decisions of a battle between ~30 rebels and maybe a few hundred of your own troops, it makes the entire thing seem like small potatoes. 

[Week]

58 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

 - How can the Rebellion be reduced to just 300 members?  WTF?  The Order is reinstating the racist, fascist policies of the Empire!  Why aren't there hundreds of races in open rebellion against them once Starkiller Base is destroyed?  It seems like there's only like a couple of aliens in the entire rebellion now.  Where there hell is everybody?!

The Rebellion gave way to the New Republic which largely demilitarized after its creation. Leia was unable to convince the New Republic to maintain a standing military during the peace between the New Republic and the remnants of the Empire (eventually the First Order). A small paramilitary force, the Resistance, was created.

In TFA, the Resistance has significant losses from the assault on the Starkiller Base and the New Republic capital, Hosnian Prime, as well as its (presumably demilitarized) starfleet are destroyed. TLJ begins immediately after all of these losses -- there is no passage of time to gather more forces or react to the new threat of attack from the First Order.

In terms of scale, the Resistance does seem too small -- but the Rebellion always seemed too small as well.

12 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

This is true, but the Order being generally incompetent is a separate issue, and I have less of a problem with that (although I'm still not a fan). 

My problem is that when you have the #1 and #2 guy in the same ship making tactical decisions of a battle between ~30 rebels and maybe a few hundred of your own troops, it makes the entire thing seem like small potatoes. 

The justification here -- continuing from above -- is that this is assault represents the end of the Resistance or at least it's founding core (i.e. Poe, Leia, and others).

[Darth Richard II]

37 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

In some ways that's even worse.  The two most important members of the Order are together in a lightly armed shuttle in a combat zone and they order all fighter cover to chase after the Falcon. 

They're in Ren's special command shuttle. Which I certainly don't know from owning the LEGO....

[Darth Richard II]

With regards to Rey and her suddenly being good at fighting, I feel that is incorrect. IT's shown in TFA alone they she can whoops ass with her staff. And the guy she takes bb8 from in the beginning lets her get away with it for SOME reason, and I always felt it was because she could beat his ass.

And here's another article about the numbers: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/27/dont-believe-the-doom-and-gloom-over-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#3150f1fc12bd

[Week]

Weird -- new to me as I have not read any novelizations -- there seems to be a new Star Wars concept introduced in the new trilogy that is unexplained (or I missed it). I figured it would also somehow be used as a justification for Holdo's sacrifice and destruction of the Supremacy -- however, per the wiki, it was a ram at hyperspace ... which does not make lots of sense (as previously pointed out).

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sub-hyperspace

Sub-hyperspace was the name given by members of the First Order to a hole in the realspace continuum through which phantom energy traveled. Unlike typical hyperspace, which moved across the galaxy, sub-hyperspace would move through the galaxy. The First Order's Starkiller Base was able to collect a form of dark energy called quintessence, transform it into phantom energy, and unleash it along a linear path through sub-hyperspace, enabling it to destroy entire star systems across vast interstellar distances in real-time.^[1]The Hosnian Cataclysm in 34 ABY revealed a strange side-effect of sub-hyperspace: the vast quantities of energy released by firing of the Starkiller Base had the ability to create a temporary rip in sub-hyperspace, allowing the Hosnian system's destruction to be viewed from across the galaxy as it happened

[Maithanet]

5 minutes ago, Week said:

The Rebellion gave way to the New Republic which largely demilitarized after its creation. Leia was unable to convince the New Republic to maintain a standing military during the peace between the New Republic and the remnants of the Empire (eventually the First Order). A small paramilitary force, the Resistance, was created.

In TFA, the Resistance has significant losses from the assault on the Starkiller Base and the New Republic capital, Hosnian Prime, as well as its (presumably demilitarized) starfleet are destroyed. TLJ begins immediately after all of these losses -- there is no passage of time to gather more forces or react to the new threat of attack from the First Order.

In terms of scale, the Resistance does seem too small -- but the Rebellion always seemed too small as well.

But even if we assume that there's no centralized military (which I find very hard to believe with the Empire's fleet still existing), why isn't there a decentralized one?  Why haven't the Bothans, Calimari, Geonosians, Wookies, etc. made fleets of their own to protect themselves?  Or for that matter why aren't there fleets from the many developed human planets like Correllia or Corsucant?  It defies belief that the galaxy is just going to let the First Order take over and there are only a tiny handful of (mostly humans) willing to fight back. 

And yes, the numbers being too small was a problem in episodes I-VII too, but this one was by far the worst.  At least the fleet battles we see in Episodes II, III and VI are pretty significant, involving hundreds of thousands/millions of troops.

[Darth Richard II]

13 minutes ago, Week said:

Weird -- new to me as I have not read any novelizations -- there seems to be a new Star Wars concept introduced in the new trilogy that is unexplained (or I missed it). I figured it would also somehow be used as a justification for Holdo's sacrifice and destruction of the Supremacy -- however, per the wiki, it was a ram at hyperspace ... which does not make lots of sense (as previously pointed out).

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sub-hyperspace

Sub-hyperspace was the name given by members of the First Order to a hole in the realspace continuum through which phantom energy traveled. Unlike typical hyperspace, which moved across the galaxy, sub-hyperspace would move through the galaxy. The First Order's Starkiller Base was able to collect a form of dark energy called quintessence, transform it into phantom energy, and unleash it along a linear path through sub-hyperspace, enabling it to destroy entire star systems across vast interstellar distances in real-time.^[1]The Hosnian Cataclysm in 34 ABY revealed a strange side-effect of sub-hyperspace: the vast quantities of energy released by firing of the Starkiller Base had the ability to create a temporary rip in sub-hyperspace, allowing the Hosnian system's destruction to be viewed from across the galaxy as it happened

I dunno, I would check wookieepedia for official Star Wars stuff, plus I don't know of a single book/comic/anything that takes place post TFA. From what I remember from official materials StarKiller Base used Khyber crystals and was basically a giant giant giant GIANT light saber that you could point at things.