The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

I dunno, I would check wookieepedia for official Star Wars stuff, plus I don't know of a single book/comic/anything that takes place post TFA. From what I remember from official materials StarKiller Base used Khyber crystals and was basically a giant giant giant GIANT light saber that you could point at things.

That was the Death Star. 

[Week]

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

But even if we assume that there's no centralized military (which I find very hard to believe with the Empire's fleet still existing), why isn't there a decentralized one?  Why haven't the Bothans, Calimari, Geonosians, Wookies, etc. made fleets of their own to protect themselves?  Or for that matter why aren't there fleets from the many developed human planets like Correllia or Corsucant?  It defies belief that the galaxy is just going to let the First Order take over and there are only a tiny handful of (mostly humans) willing to fight back. 

It may be a willingness to join the Resistance -- Leia was exposed as the daughter of Darth Vader and it was a small band of paramilitary troops. We'll see what happens in XI -- it may be that those were the allies they tried to rouse from Crait, but did not come.

I agree that it seems like it defies belief and I would be more annoyed if this was a standalone story -- the story has not finished.

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

And yes, the numbers being too small was a problem in episodes I-VII too, but this one was by far the worst.  At least the fleet battles we see in Episodes II, III and VI are pretty significant, involving hundreds of thousands/millions of troops.

We're not looking at apples to apples across all these movies for a variety of reasons. I would expect a huge battle in XI as allies are rallied to fight alongside the Resistance against Ren and the First Order. I'd be very disappointed if that didn't happen. At that point, I would be 100% in agreement with you.

[Darth Richard II]

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

That was the Death Star. 

No, I was under the impression they both used Khyber crystals, in fact there was speculation Starkiller base was built on what remained of that Khyber planet in R1 ...Jedha?

Heck let me check wookiepedia

Pfft ok that site linked previously IS wookiepedia, no, ignore me!

Edit: Well according to wookiepedia we're both right, it uses weird subspace energy crap but its powered by Khyber crystals. Weird.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

But even if we assume that there's no centralized military (which I find very hard to believe with the Empire's fleet still existing), why isn't there a decentralized one?  Why haven't the Bothans, Calimari, Geonosians, Wookies, etc. made fleets of their own to protect themselves?

Protect themselves from what? If you recall, the Star Wars universe doesn't have a lot of standing military most of the time, and in the Republic days it was downright weird to have a big ol' set of ships ready to go - so weird, in fact, that the Jedi had to basically take a pre-made army and navy and use that in the war - which was the Clone Army. 

Per canon, most of the New Republic fleet was at Coruscant - and was obliterated. The rest of the universe appears to not really want to have a whole lot of capital ships sitting around. 

7 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

  Or for that matter why aren't there fleets from the many developed human planets like Correllia or Corsucant?  It defies belief that the galaxy is just going to let the First Order take over and there are only a tiny handful of (mostly humans) willing to fight back. 

Yeah, seems weird that people just let evil take over and do nothing as long as it isn't harming them directly, huh

7 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

And yes, the numbers being too small was a problem in episodes I-VII too, but this one was by far the worst.  At least the fleet battles we see in Episodes II, III and VI are pretty significant, involving hundreds of thousands/millions of troops.

Well, II and III sure. VI was still really small as far as all of that goes. We only have a few Mon Cal cruisers, some support ships and what not against about 10 Star Destroyers and the superstar destroyer. The rebels have maybe a hundred fighters based on the color and counting system they have. 

But yeah, it felt small. It felt small when there were a few AT-ATs ganging up on only a couple hundred resistance troops, with junk garbage going after them. I am hoping for fleet battles galore next time. 

[Corvinus85]

19 minutes ago, Week said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sub-hyperspace

Sub-hyperspace was the name given by members of the First Order to a hole in the realspace continuum through which phantom energy traveled. Unlike typical hyperspace, which moved across the galaxy, sub-hyperspace would move through the galaxy. The First Order's Starkiller Base was able to collect a form of dark energy called quintessence, transform it into phantom energy, and unleash it along a linear path through sub-hyperspace, enabling it to destroy entire star systems across vast interstellar distances in real-time.^[1]The Hosnian Cataclysm in 34 ABY revealed a strange side-effect of sub-hyperspace: the vast quantities of energy released by firing of the Starkiller Base had the ability to create a temporary rip in sub-hyperspace, allowing the Hosnian system's destruction to be viewed from across the galaxy as it happened

Love this BS explanation. But why was the beam visible when fired (Kylo Ren sees it from his ship), if it travels through space.

Personally, I thought the novelization of TFA had a better explanation for the whole thing:

• it didn't suck out a star, it just collected dark energy that forms around stars, and the effect blotted out the star from the POV of those on the base
• it shot the beam through this sub-hyperspace
• it hit a planet which essentially went supernova, destroying everything else in the system, but also ended up creating a new star - so I guess maybe the Starkiller name wouldn't work so well.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

17 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

But even if we assume that there's no centralized military (which I find very hard to believe with the Empire's fleet still existing), why isn't there a decentralized one?  Why haven't the Bothans, Calimari, Geonosians, Wookies, etc. made fleets of their own to protect themselves?  Or for that matter why aren't there fleets from the many developed human planets like Correllia or Corsucant?  It defies belief that the galaxy is just going to let the First Order take over and there are only a tiny handful of (mostly humans) willing to fight back. 

And yes, the numbers being too small was a problem in episodes I-VII too, but this one was by far the worst.  At least the fleet battles we see in Episodes II, III and VI are pretty significant, involving hundreds of thousands/millions of troops.

Well, I think there is a decentralized military - there is mention of allies in the outer rim.  Also, the reason is that building up that kind of infrastructure from zero is not some kind of easy thing.  Ask yourself, does the First Order make the interplanetary shuttles run on time, or at least make the people in charge of those planets lots of money?

[Darth Richard II]

Eh, isn't Kylo pretty much on a ship in orbit around the base when it's fired?

[Maithanet]

11 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Well, I think there is a decentralized military - there is mention of allies in the outer rim.  Also, the reason is that building up that kind of infrastructure from zero is not some kind of easy thing.  Ask yourself, does the First Order make the interplanetary shuttles run on time, or at least make the people in charge of those planets lots of money?

It is hard for me to believe that Starkiller Base was a popular move.  Maybe killing billions of civilians for political gain and threatening to do the same to trillions more didn't get much of a rise out of people?

I feel like we're getting into a failure of worldbuilding.  It is possible that the collapse of the empire in ROTJ led to galactic instability, and that many (particularly in the ruling classes) preferred living under their rule.  But we have never seen any indication that was the case.  Have we ever even heard a single kind word about the "order" that the Empire installed and the First Order is planning to reinstate?  Do all of those hundreds of alien races have no problem bowing down to a galactic civilization that clearly favors white human men over all others?  Seems very hard to believe. 

The Empire from Episodes III-VI was believable because they had the power to back it up, and nobody wanted to go it alone against such a powerful fleet.  After ROTJ, why aren't at least some of those alien races arming themselves to prevent that from happening again?  Doubly so considering the Empire still existed, simply weakened from the disaster at Endor.  Are we to presume that humans are both more numerous and more warlike than essentially all other races?  Maybe we are...

[Caligula_K3]

I saw this again last night, after watching The Force Awakens the other night. A few thoughts:

-Finn does have a character arc in this movie, and it's not a repeat of TFA. Whether it's handled well is another question. Finn in TFA cares mainly about getting as far away from the fight as he can, and his development takes him as far as being willing to fight for his friends, in particular Rey. That's where he starts TLJ- he goes for the escape pod not only because he thinks the Resistance is doomed, but because he doesn't want Rey to return to just be killed. By the end of the movie, he's dedicated to the Resistance as a whole and is willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. Again, getting there isn't smooth: much of this development hinges on the Canto Blight scenes, which are truly awful. What would have been better is to cut out all the space horses, plucky orphans, etc... and to focus on the trio of Finn, the codebreaker and Rose as a way of developing Finn's character.

-This is a four act movie, which is a pretty bold structure for a modern blockbuster. In my opinion, acts 1 (the escape from the rebel base, Rey meeting Luke, the attack on the frigate), 3 (the throne scene, the mutiny and end of the space chase, Finn, Rose and the codebreaker on board Snoke's ship), and act 4 (the salt planet) are all very good, with excellent moments. The main problem the movie has is act 2. They Rey/Luke/Kylo portion of this is consistently good and offers some of the best scenes in the movie. But the other two plotlines don't do well. The slow, long, space chase is simply boring, and too much of it relies on Laura Dern and Domnall Gleeson, who give the worst performances of the movie. And just about everything on Canto Blight is... not good, and veers towards the awful at moments, particularly in the space horse chase scene and some of the dialogue they give to Finn and Rose during it. Unfortunately, this act also lasts a really long time, which is why the movie feels overlong: too much time spent on not compelling material.

-The Last Jedi flows pretty well from The Force Awakens. The reveal of Rey's parents works well with the themes of the movie and doesn't contradict anything you get in TFA, where all the hullaballoo about Rey's parents still feels central to her character development. Kylo's intensity about finding Luke Skywalker is explained well by what we see in this movie through his version of why he burned the Jedi Temple, and his hurt at being betrayed by Luke explains much about his character. TFA does, however, imply that we'll be getting a lot more info about Snoke. I'm happy he died in this movie, but some backstory for the first order and him was pretty necessary.

-Space horses, porgs, ice foxes: the latter two are used pretty tastefully, but even so, it's a bit much. Let's stick to one or two merchandising creatures per movie, ok?

-Can bombs fall in space? Are the characters excessively good at everything when the plot needs them to be? Who cares? This is Star Wars, not hard sci-fi: the heroes are always exceptionally talented and acquire skills when the plot needs them to, and the physics have never made sense. I know we're all nerds and nitpicking is a big part of nerd culture, but I can't believe people get worked up about things like this.

-Overall, I like The Last Jedi a lot, and love parts of it: the throne room scene, Luke's showdown with Kylo, all of Luke's character development, and the scenes between Rey and Kylo. I enjoy the theme of learning from failure, which plays out beautifully with all the plotlines and in Poe's character arc, even if it's a bit rough getting there. I love the way the movie tries new things, even if it doesn't always work.

I think I'd rank it lower than The Force Awakens, which is a more consistent movie whereas this one has very high highs and a few very low lows. 

[Darth Richard II]

I liked canto bight

[Caligula_K3]

5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I liked canto bight

Awww. I wish I did too! What did you like about it? I love the basic idea: an amoral casino world where the rich who finance and profit from the eternal conflict gather, and I love the codebreaker character. I also like the overall point of the plotline. It's just that I can't take it seriously when it hits you with its message with the subtlety of a jackhammer and there are plucky oppressed orphans like we're in Dickens' London and...

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

 

Well, II and III sure. VI was still really small as far as all of that goes. We only have a few Mon Cal cruisers, some support ships and what not against about 10 Star Destroyers and the superstar destroyer. The rebels have maybe a hundred fighters based on the color and counting system they have. 

The wiki Battle of Endor page suggests there were at a minimum 70,000 crew on the Alliance capital and escort ships, and on the Imperial side allegedly 27 Star Destroyers (the cite is the film, so I assume someone tried to count; other counts I see have put it at, variously, 33 or 44) with (according to a 2015 canon guide) over a 1 million crew and Stormtroopers, and that's not counting the Super Star Destroyer. And then there's the Death Star itself.

I think the scale of things -- which has been an issue from the time we saw the Starkiller just blast multiple star systems in a single blast, blasts everyone everywhere in the galaxy were apparently able to see -- is certainly one of my gripes. I know they're struggling with the fact that the OT was sometimes vague or inconsistent about these things, but they've exacerbated the issue tremendously in a way that, I think, even the prequels didn't do. It's very weird, but it feels like you're seeing very different approaches between the Lucas-era and the post-Lucas. The post-Lucas era has any number of good qualities, but the world-building seems to be something that the directors they're handing the trilogy to generally do not really "get", and this alleged Story Group seems to have no interest or ability in trying to keep things in the same ballpark.

[Darth Richard II]

6 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Awww. I wish I did too! What did you like about it? I love the basic idea: an amoral casino world where the rich who finance and profit from the eternal conflict gather, and I love the codebreaker character. I also like the overall point of the plotline. It's just that I can't take it seriously when it hits you with its message with the subtlety of a jackhammer and there are plucky oppressed orphans like we're in Dickens' London and...

I dunno, the message didn't bother me. I think the whole thing could have been edited into the film better but overall I didn't find it prequel level bad the way some people did.

Also, I might be the outlier here, but why does everyone hate on Rose?(other than the alt right, I mean).

[Mlle. Zabzie]

6 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I dunno, the message didn't bother me. I think the whole thing could have been edited into the film better but overall I didn't find it prequel level bad the way some people did.

Also, I might be the outlier here, but why does everyone hate on Rose?(other than the alt right, I mean).

I like Rose!  I wish she had a bigger part!

[Caligula_K3]

3 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I dunno, the message didn't bother me. I think the whole thing could have been edited into the film better but overall I didn't find it prequel level bad the way some people did.

Also, I might be the outlier here, but why does everyone hate on Rose?(other than the alt right, I mean).

I like Rose herself (and the message her character brings). I think she's just given some of the worst dialogue in the movie, and after her initial great scene she's forced to play everything as super earnest. But I found the actress to be fairly good with what she was given and the character herself was fine. Many of the critiques I've seen online have been racist, sexist, or both.

[Darth Richard II]

Well, I'm glad I'm not alone.

[Eggegg]

Apart from Rose being associated with the worst elements of the movie , and that bit at the end where she stops Finn sacrificing himself , which was another ridiculous moment, for me there was just something about her character that felt totally ‘alien’  to the Star Wars universe.  She feels like someone out of a cheesy rom com, a sort of cuddly comedy sidekick, who’s got a crush on a guy. It didn’t really seem to fit with anything else.

I think the actress was fine, did a good job, but almost everything about the character was too cheesy

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Protect themselves from what? If you recall, the Star Wars universe doesn't have a lot of standing military most of the time, and in the Republic days it was downright weird to have a big ol' set of ships ready to go - so weird, in fact, that the Jedi had to basically take a pre-made army and navy and use that in the war - which was the Clone Army. 

Per canon, most of the New Republic fleet was at Coruscant - and was obliterated. The rest of the universe appears to not really want to have a whole lot of capital ships sitting around. 

Coruscant isn't destroyed.  It just isn't the capital anymore for.... reasons.  It was a Coruscant lookalike that was destroyed in Ep7 called Hosnian Prime or somesuch.

[mormont]

24 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I dunno, the message didn't bother me. I think the whole thing could have been edited into the film better but overall I didn't find it prequel level bad the way some people did.

Also, I might be the outlier here, but why does everyone hate on Rose?(other than the alt right, I mean).

Does anyone other than the alt-right hate on Rose? I haven't seen it, if so.

[Ran]

I didn't mind a counterpart to Finn -- someone else at the ground-level, one of the otherwise-nameless thousands (well, hundreds) who support th Resistance. And the actress did fine with what she had -- nothing really topped her introduction scene. But the rush to have her go from shocking him to giving him a kiss because (presumably) she's in love with him felt so ... ugh. It undermined a lot of her presence for me, and we're not even going to get into the ill-considered Canto Bight segment. 

Johnson's an interesting director. I really liked Brick. Looper was fun. But both of those films have their issues -- too packed with ideas, with narratives that don't entirely hang together. He can structure pretty well, but he ends up trying to do too much, maybe, when sometime less-is-more.