The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

[Darth Richard II]

if by 80s kid's you mean White Supremacists and MRA types, sure.

[Ran]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

Sounds like they've destroyed a pillar of every 80's kid's cultural upbringing.

Nope. Its sin, if you can call it such, is being a good but sloppy film. In no way, shape, or form does it destroy the OT or Star Wars universe; anyone who says otherwise is wrong. 

To put it in another light, the prequels did more cinematic harm to the universe than any of these new films have done. I mean that in a narrow sense -- the films as cinema -- as I do believe the underlying ideas behind the prequels were perfectly serviceable to quite good (particularly the way Lucas paints the Jedi Council in a negative light) but badly served by Lucas running the whole show, especially as director.

[Eggegg]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

Nope. Its sin, if you can call it such, is being a good but sloppy film. In no way, shape, or form does it destroy the OT or Star Wars universe; anyone who says otherwise is wrong. 

To put it in another light, the prequels did more cinematic harm to the universe than any of these new films have done. I mean that in a narrow sense -- the films as cinema -- as I do believe the underlying ideas behind the prequels were perfectly serviceable to quite good (particularly the way Lucas paints the Jedi Council in a negative light) but badly served by Lucas running the whole show, especially as director.

The prequels are a travesty, and the fact that we are still able to get Star Wars movies years after the Prequels came out is a sort of miracle as the franchise by rights should have died. 

That I'm able to mentally separate the OT from the Prequels, in a way that means I just look at them as wasted potential, rather than franchise destroying movies that kill the originals, is a sign that I will one day look back on the Sequels in the same way.  The sequels are at least mediocre, with the occasional good bit and quite a few bad bits. In some ways they highlight just how good the OT was in comparison.

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

if by 80s kid's you mean White Supremacists and MRA types, sure.

People who don't agree with you = Alt right / MRA / White Supremacists. 

[Relic]

How many people here are more excited to see Episode 9 after leaving the theater than they were to see Episode 8 after leaving TFA? Cuz for me, personally, this movie made me not care about the next one. With Luke's fate being what it was, and Carrie Fisher's tragic death greatly reducing her role in the next film, there is nothing that ties me to the next movie. I simply find myself not caring about Rey or Ren all that much, and even less so about the other new characters.  Anyone else feel the same?

[Nictarion]

23 minutes ago, Relic said:

How many people here are more excited to see Episode 9 after leaving the theater than they were to see Episode 8 after leaving TFA? Cuz for me, personally, this movie made me not care about the next one. With Luke's fate being what it was, and Carrie Fisher's tragic death greatly reducing her role in the next film, there is nothing that ties me to the next movie. I simply find myself not caring about Rey or Ren all that much, and even less so about the other new characters.  Anyone else feel the same?

I’m probably not the best person to answer as I really like Rey and Ren as characters, but yes I’m still just as excited for Ep 9. Luke’s not entirely gone as we all know he’ll be back as a force ghost (which could makes for some good scenes), and I’m extremely curious how they’ll handle the death of Leia. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

27 minutes ago, Relic said:

How many people here are more excited to see Episode 9 after leaving the theater than they were to see Episode 8 after leaving TFA? Cuz for me, personally, this movie made me not care about the next one. With Luke's fate being what it was, and Carrie Fisher's tragic death greatly reducing her role in the next film, there is nothing that ties me to the next movie. I simply find myself not caring about Rey or Ren all that much, and even less so about the other new characters.  Anyone else feel the same?

Well that's my main issue. The fact that Luke Skywalker has been replaced as the hero of the story by newcomers I don't care about. So what were the original stories for then? All for nothing.

[Darth Richard II]

48 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

 

People who don't agree with you = Alt right / MRA / White Supremacists. 

Well when they decry the film as feminist / anti white propaganda, use racial slurs, and start a pettion to put the hands of the franchise back in the hands of "white males, as is proper"...

theres also some vague homophobia on there too but I haven't gone down that rabbit hole.

[Eggegg]

6 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well when they decry the film as feminist / anti white propaganda, use racial slurs, and start a pettion to put the hands of the franchise back in the hands of "white males, as is proper"...

theres also some vague homophobia on there too but I haven't gone down that rabbit hole.

I’m sure. However there are a lot of people out there complaining about the movie, and it isn’t because they are racist alt righters, but because they don’t like the movie. Rose is a crappy poorly written character who is responsible for most of the weakest sections of the movie, disliking her has nothing to do with racism for most people who disliked her.

[Relic]

12 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well when they decry the film as feminist / anti white propaganda, use racial slurs, and start a pettion to put the hands of the franchise back in the hands of "white males, as is proper"...

theres also some vague homophobia on there too but I haven't gone down that rabbit hole.

Is anyone here doing that? Is not, can we maybe not get into it? The internet is filled with trolls, bots, and the occasional real racist/sexist/pieceofshit. Just as you would take off muddy boots before entering your home maybe you can leave that garbage at the door as well?

[HexMachina]

31 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well that's my main issue. The fact that Luke Skywalker has been replaced as the hero of the story by newcomers I don't care about. So what were the original stories for then? All for nothing.

The original stories were there...to tell the original stories, in the original trilogy . Those are over now, the focus is on the new generation in 5e new trilogy, as was obvious from the last film and is a repeated message in this film, which you would know if you actually watched it instead of spouting off baseles opinions when you haven’t even seen the film.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

How many people here are more excited to see Episode 9 after leaving the theater than they were to see Episode 8 after leaving TFA? Cuz for me, personally, this movie made me not care about the next one. With Luke's fate being what it was, and Carrie Fisher's tragic death greatly reducing her role in the next film, there is nothing that ties me to the next movie. I simply find myself not caring about Rey or Ren all that much, and even less so about the other new characters.  Anyone else feel the same?

More excited? Maybe not. Just as excited? Pretty much. But then, I have enjoyed pretty much all of the new characters.

Besides, you can put money on Luke being in the next film.

Speaking of which, referring back to earlier comments about whether Hamill liked the direction his character took:

I know, I know. Won't persuade anyone: it's either his real opinion or Disney turning the screws, according to taste.

 

[Relic]

8 minutes ago, mormont said:

More excited? Maybe not. Just as excited? Pretty much. But then, I have enjoyed pretty much all of the new characters.

Fair enough. I'm honestly asking, not looking for affirmation of my own inconsequential opinion. For the record I left this movie really really liking it (aside from Poe's first scene and the casino shit), as I tend to do with Star Wars. It's only after the spectacle is over do the questions and doubts begin to arise.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

How many people here are more excited to see Episode 9 after leaving the theater than they were to see Episode 8 after leaving TFA? Cuz for me, personally, this movie made me not care about the next one. With Luke's fate being what it was, and Carrie Fisher's tragic death greatly reducing her role in the next film, there is nothing that ties me to the next movie. I simply find myself not caring about Rey or Ren all that much, and even less so about the other new characters.  Anyone else feel the same?

Yeah, I'm definitely not as excited, especially as it sank in a bit regarding how much was seemingly closed off by the choices made in this film.

Like I said earlier, I'll watch the next in a theater, maybe Solo as well, and after that I suspect I'm done with going to see these in theaters unless the director and buzz really excites me. Another Gareth Edwards SW film? Absolutely. Denis Villeneuve, Nicholas Winding Refn, Kathryn Bigelow, Steven Soderbergh, Wong Kar-Wai (PLEASE, Disney!)? Very probably. Rian Johnson's new trilogy? Eh.... we'll see who's writing it and what the pitch is. Colin Trevorrow? Nope.

To put this in context:

I adore the original trilogy, which I know I was taken to see as a (very young) kid in theaters (well, TESB and RotJ, wasn't born for ANH's release), but my real fandom for the OT is more dated to middle school thanks to some friends. Got the VHS of the films, played them until they were worn out, enjoyed the heck out of Timothy Zahn's first trilogy but didn't really follow up on the EU beyond that, enjoyed looking at West End Games' source books for their RPG but didn't actively play, watched the entirety of Bill Moyers' talks with Joseph Campbell because of this stuff. Prequels come out, I hear the negative criticisms from critics, don't bother seeing them in theaters, only ever watched TPM start-to-finish. Everything else -- cartoons, comics, I've seen bits and pieces, but never really been grabbed.

Mostly, then, it's about the original trilogy, the one where Lucas collaborated most with others, where he was more producer and story guy and visual effects visionary-enabler than writer and director.

@mormont

My only point was that Hamill said -- and appears to stick by -- that he had and continues to have issues with Luke's presentation in the film, so his latest statement seems to underscore that he still feels the same, he just regrets it being public. Works for me.

[Eggegg]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

How many people here are more excited to see Episode 9 after leaving the theater than they were to see Episode 8 after leaving TFA? Cuz for me, personally, this movie made me not care about the next one. With Luke's fate being what it was, and Carrie Fisher's tragic death greatly reducing her role in the next film, there is nothing that ties me to the next movie. I simply find myself not caring about Rey or Ren all that much, and even less so about the other new characters.  Anyone else feel the same?

When I walked out of TLJ I felt like I had no intention of watching another Star Wars movie. It totally killed it for me. I'm not sure what it was, I guess the realisation that there is nothing special about the Star Wars universe that will keep me coming back any more. I watched TFA with a sense of nostalgia and that carried me along through what was really a pretty mediocre movie. Rogue One was the closest to how a Star Wars movie should 'feel', it felt like it was set in the right universe and was taking its subject seriously and wasn't just a mindless pander to whatever sells the most tickets. However it still was far from perfect.

The Last Jedi was just a kick in the teeth really, it didn't feel like a Star Wars movie at all as far as I'm concerned, it came off a bit like most of the teenage sci fi movies we get these days like Insurgent or Hunger Games, with bland inoffensive characters, very broad humour and overly earnest emotional heartstring pulling moments. I don't get any sense of world building or a feeling that there is this whole universe of ideas out there that I'd want to come back to explore. 

Plus I don't care about any of the new characters. Only Kylo Ren is anywhere near interesting, and I fear they will smooth out his wrinkles in the last movie. Finn was utterly wasted and thrown away in TLJ, Rey took a step backwards in terms of charisma and charm, Poe was discarded and hidden in a back cupboard for most of the run time, Phasma was killed off before she got started, Snoke was an irrelevance. There is nothing to hold onto and keep me coming back in terms of character.

The plot is also at a point where I still don't feel like its gotten going yet, there doesn't really seem to be any end game or point to anything that happens. If the rebellion crushes the First Order in the next movie then it will be a big 'meh' as the First Order hasn't even taken over properly yet and we haven't seen what effect their reign would have. There are so many flaws with the storytelling at this point that I really think the next movie is doomed if there isn't a time jump of like a decade.

[Happy Ent]

7 hours ago, Rubicante said:

With that being said, I always found it ridiculous that Luke could get into an x-wing with absolutely no experience flying a spacecraft.  The only "piloting" we see Luke do is drive a hover car.  I think he plays with a toy of a ship at some point early in the movie while talking to C-3PO and R2-D2, but that doesn't mean he can pilot a spacecraft.  I think the reason I like The Empire Strikes Back so much is that Luke is constantly failing, which seemed a lot more realistic to me.  He gets knocked out by a Wampa, has his snow speeder shot down, crashes his x-wing on Dagobah, has a difficult time training with Yoda, and gets his hand cut off fighting Vader.  Rey really hasn't had this moment in the sequel trilogy.  Snoke tosses her around like a doll, but that is short lived.  She is right back to kicking ass.

To expand on that:

Analysis 1. Rey is a naively-written, wish-fulfillment character in the same way that Luke or Anakin are. This is par for the course in speculative fiction, there are countless novels and movies in which the plucky young hero takes up a sword and fights off a bunch of orcs without training. Our genre is simply an embarrassment, and has always been. Rey is badly and lazily written, and anybody who reads serious literature (or knows actual humans) should own up to this. Adults cringe at each of Rey’s actions, just as we cringe when Anakin blows up spaceships by sheer luck or Luke is an awesome Jedi with way too little training. As Rubicante observes, we know this, because the training sequences (when we see them) make sense and are important to us. An entire movie was dedicated to Luke failing and training, and two movies are dedicated to Anakin training, and doubting, and failing. Likewise, the fact that Rey wants to learn, and we see her train, is pleasant to us. We do not cringe.

We just needed slightly more of this to believe in Rey. Some more training montages. Some self-doubt. Some failure. Some off-hand remark that she showed great promise already as an 8-year old. The films dropped the ball here, making Rey into an even more unbelievable character than Luke and Anakin. The first six movies are filled with main characters personal agonising and failing and training. It’s one of the tropes that did not make it into the new ones.

Rey’s character is just a storytelling and character development failure. Lazy, a call-back to countless other lazily written heroes. No big deal. Pay some more attention to her training, failure, doubt, and you can turn her into a non-embarrassing character in a later movie.

Analysis 2. There is personal agony, failure, and training even in TLJ! We have Kylo Ren! He has trained and failed all his life. He is the contrast to Rey. Rey trains not. She fails not. She doubts not. 

This is not a failure of storytelling, but a deliberate choice.

Training, failure, and self-doubt are, we are lectured, male values. These themes belong to the Jedi, to Anakin, to Luke, and to Kylo. The homo novus of TLF is a blank-slate female who is just automatically awesome. Her lack of training, her lack of doubt, her lack of heritage, her lack of discipline, her lack of failure: these are not the marks of bad storytelling; instead, they are the necessary characteristics to make her relatable for the intended audience. They are deliberate characteristics of a new heroic archetype, fit for the new generation. Rey’s vision quest shows just herself, infinitely and identically repeated. It’s about herself, even though she has not notable characteristics. She doesn’t want anything, she has not traits. She is just a perfect blank slate onto which everybody can project themselves. 

Rey’s character is a storytelling and character development success. Deliberate and careful, a vision of a hero for a progressive generation. This is a big deal. Pay some more attention to her training, failure, doubt, and you have destroyed her.

[mormont]

23 minutes ago, Ran said:

@mormont

My only point was that Hamill said -- and appears to stick by -- that he had and continues to have issues with Luke's presentation in the film, so his latest statement seems to underscore that he still feels the same, he just regrets it being public. Works for me.

Ran: that's not directed at you personally, I should say - I've seen lots of people cite Hamill's comments, so this seemed relevant. That said, you also should look at the tweet he's commenting on (linked in his tweet, but reproduced here):

https://t

witter.com/StupendousWave/status/945409809150500865

[Ran]

I do not trust anyone's gifs breaking up an interview. This Jar Jar Adams character also excerpted the same interview to prove the opposite point.

(I hate that people take these videos from movie sites, edit them into gifs or shorter versions, and then DON'T PROVIDE THE ORIGINAL SOURCE. You are infringing their copyright, mofos, at least do them the courtesy of linking them.)

[Mark Antony]

2 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I’m sure. However there are a lot of people out there complaining about the movie, and it isn’t because they are racist alt righters, but because they don’t like the movie. Rose is a crappy poorly written character who is responsible for most of the weakest sections of the movie, disliking her has nothing to do with racism for most people who disliked her.

Yeah this thread got a little weird.

3 hours ago, Relic said:

How many people here are more excited to see Episode 9 after leaving the theater than they were to see Episode 8 after leaving TFA? Cuz for me, personally, this movie made me not care about the next one. With Luke's fate being what it was, and Carrie Fisher's tragic death greatly reducing her role in the next film, there is nothing that ties me to the next movie. I simply find myself not caring about Rey or Ren all that much, and even less so about the other new characters.  Anyone else feel the same?

I’m nowhere near as excited as I was but still probably more excited than you. After TFA I was curious to see where they went with pretty much all the new/old characters. Now I only really care about Rey/Ren. 

[Martini Sigil]

This is Star Wars... i f'ing love Star Wars... but that doesn't mean that I can't be critical when they leave gaping plot holes and write terribly....

- If Holdo could launch herself at light speed at the dreadnaught.... then why couldn;t the  First Order Fleet overtake her ship.... why were they flying across the galaxy in slow motion?

-Star Destroyers don't have weapons anymore?... they seem to watch the dreadnaught get destroyed without offering any help...

-Finn is flying the land skimmer directly into the destructo-beam that is destroying the big metal door directly behind him.... why didn't it destroy Finn and his skimmer?

-They've *always* had light speed tracking technology... that is how they found the rebel base in the first movie... they tracked the millennium Falcon....

-Snoke didn;t know Hux was tracking the rebels?... he's a friggin mind reader... why would hux keep this from him until after he got all pissed off?

-The Maz Kanata scene was awful.... who was she fighting?... why?... and who was filming her?... 

-If Luke doesn;t want to be found.... why is there a map to his location?

-How does Finn get Rose back to the base unharmed?... they were the only ones on the battlefield... Ren ordered his men to kill everyone... the ground was white, bleeding red... no one noticed them?

-So Yoda can call lightning strikes from the grave?... where was he when the first order was destroying planets with billions of people?

-Hey First order dudes... look out the fucking window... see all those escape pods?... because we do.

-and finally... the new Jedi power of astral projection... it was dumb enough when Ren and Rey were playing inter planetary grab-ass... but a cross galaxy light saber battle? Ren couldn;t tell?... and Are the gold dice there or not? 

If this movie wasn't part of the Star Wars universe, most of us would hate it... and all of this is beside the fact that Luke has become a spectacular asshole...  I'm more than willing to suspend my disbelief, but once you establish your own rules for your universe, you really need to adhere to them... Just please write a movie that makes sense... is that too much to ask?

[Ran]

@Martini Sigil

In ANH, a tracking beacon was actually placed on the Millenium Falcon. I mean, Leia and Rey have their hyperspace tracking beacon thing as well. The "new" tech is that the First Order has figured out a means of tracking any ship jumping into hyperspace without first getting a tracking device aboard. 

The map thing, the explanation is that the map is to the location of the first Jedi temple, not to Luke. It was just assumed Luke would be there, because... ? I don't know, actually, I don't remember how the map became about Luke.

ETA: Hrm... I found what seems to be a transcript of the movie and in fact it's always talked about as a map to Luke. Then I guess the idea is that it's understood he went to the first Jedi temple, but no one really knows where it is, and Luke didn't deliberately try to provide a map to where he was.

Kind of funny to think that they could just have had Rey show up on Ahch-to... and no Luke; he decided to zip off to some random planet the next system over.

ETA the 2nd: So, how did Kylo know where Luke was, and how did he find out Lor San Tekka had a map that would help him get there? And why is he after Luke -- just personal animus, or did Snoke have some larger plan? I'm starting to think the whole map business was pretty half-baked...

Okay, reading on, Snoke wants to stop the Resistance from getting in touch with Luke. Did he see something about Luke teaching Rey, or doing something to spark a resurgence in the Resistance? That Luke would somehow lead to his doom? Ugh, who knows. I don't think Abrams did, in any case...