The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

[Darth Richard II]

10 hours ago, mormont said:

That would be kind of a damp squib, though, wouldn't it?

'You thought your parents were nobodies, but the twist is that your father was actually this character you've never met, who's appeared in one film, and has no Force connections'.

'Uh, OK'.

Yeah, its just random internet speculation. I mean, she could still be adopted, have a famous grandparent, be a clone, who knows.

[DMC]

8 hours ago, Relic said:

Can we talk about treatment of aliens in this movie

Here's an entire article on it.

[Darth Richard II]

Well, every Star Wars film is anti trump. It's about fighting incompetent Space Nazis.

[Seli]

A lovely take on the way Luke was portrayed in TLJ, and how he got there. Basically using deep depression to understand him and his actions.

https://www.zacbertschy.com/blog/2017/12/29/my-hero-luke-skywalker

Quote

I can’t believe they did this. Here’s what happens to Luke Skywalker, Mr. Hero’s Journey, the self-insert for every spoiled child of the late 70s and 80s: it turns out he was traumatized by what happened in the original trilogy, which everyone should just nod along with because of course he was. He finds out Space Hitler is his dad, then fights him to the death minutes before their personal reckoning changes political history for the entire galaxy. Everyone’s convinced he’s the real thing, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, but he’s damaged goods. All that emotional violence ripped his brain apart. Can’t say shit about it though – people are counting on him.

So he fails. His anxiety explodes, dragging him into the pit. What’s worse, his anxiety drags someone else in, someone who relied on him. The failure crushes what’s left of him and then Luke Skywalker surrenders to depression and fucks off forever, just like you or I would.

And why in that view the ending is so great:

Quote

So he does. Luke gets the fuck over himself at a cosmic level, takes responsibility for his failure and goes out like a pacifist badass, giving every last piece of himself – everything he’s ever done with his stupid life – and gives all of it, selflessly, to the people he loves, the things he believes in. So much so that there’s nothing left at the end – he fades out.

It was the most heroic thing I think I’ve ever seen in a movie, especially a space wizard movie. To let go of your self-hatred and give yourself so completely to the people you love that you fade away in peace. It is a beautiful fantasy and, I thought, a particularly resonant message for the anxious and depressed about what you can be capable of, the kind of peace you may be able to find if you dig down deep enough and push yourself emotionally.

 

[Lady Of The Crossbow Inn]

But Eggegg, Star Wars has always been political. An 7-yr-old girl may not know what "Stormtroopers" were in 1977 as she sat watching ANH. She certainly did not know what Triumph of the Will was, or how a certain famous scene was a mockery and parody of it;  she only cheered her new heroes getting those shiny new medals and marched out of the theater to the strains of that martial music. And then she grew up and found out what those things were, and watched, and listened, and watched some more, and did some research, and read essays and books, and marveled at the deliciously seductive power of great art. How you think you're above the "ignorant masses" in how you reacted to a film; then you grow up and watch it again and all of a sudden it smashes you full  on in the face: I'm just like those Nazi troops: I didn't cover my eyes either; I was just as spellbound:  I looked too. Would that make me as blasphemous as those fictional characters, and nominally deserving of punishment as well on some purely cosmetic level, in my desire to be entertained by the spectacle of my enemies' death?  Was Spiellberg "breaking the fourth wall" in that sequence? (OK, that's another franchise, but same co-creator and same time period.) 

 

And don't get me started on poitics/political themes in the Prequels. Can we all agree on this? Esp Ep 3. got uite a lot of comment back in the day, until Lucas was asked about it directly. 

Again: you don't think of these things when you are an 11-yr-old girl, as I was in 1981 watching Raiders. But such is the richness and power and pure magic of these films--fairy tales is what they really are--that they exact an indelible hold upon us, and we know this because for so many of these reviewers, they--and we--know firsthand the experience when we were children. And now we see the franchise through adult eyes, and project our own values upon it. Or take from it. great art appeals to all ends of the spectrum. I would love to be able to talk to little kids and find out what they thought of TLJ, what they liked and didn't and what stuck with them. The 2nd time I saw TLJ, even as I was re-watching the Luke/Rey scenes re-evaluating for light/darkness after the "Hope is like the sun" comment, I also tried to see it with the eyes of a child, trying to see what scenes I'd likely remember or what effect they'd have. I remember the Binary Sunset from 1977 like it was yesterday, the chills down my spine as my eyes focused on the trembling heat waves in the air making the suns shiver, how that was echoed in JW's string arpeggios. It struck something deep within me that I've never been able to erase. And I know if I was an 7-yr-old girl sitting in a theater today, the image of Luke disappearing, framed by the black walls of the cave, would be equally as powerful and long-lasting. 

I remember reading back in 1999 about the scoring session for TPM. It turned out that fully 20% of the London Symphony Orchestra was comprised that year by late 20/early 30 -somethings who swarmed around JW asking for autographs, they told him that they were inspired to pick up instruments as little children after walking out of the theater. I'd like to think that similar stories are happening today. This is precious and beautiful. 

We write about these things, and these images and the stories they tell, because they're part of America' last great modern myth, it's like the Wizard of Oz, these characters are us, they're  part of us. Even the new ones. Why else have I just put up the Prologue to the Alan Dean Foster ANH novel on my fridge? If that doesn't describe America now...One of the reasons Ep 9 suddenly intruiges me more than it did s that the film's script...are you SURE Rian didn't have a crystal ball and write this in 2017? As I said much earlier, the Resistance, and in such dire straits? "Hope is like the sun..." etc. That's a more powerful line the 2nd time around and not just b/c it links to the last images of Luke onscreen. 

I remember another SW ancedote. During the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, then-CNN reporter Anderson Cooper was trying to sneak a convey of supplies with a camera crew past a military roadblock. He concocted some story that eventually swayed the official in charge and the convoy was waved through. When they were well down the road, out of earshot of the authorities, Cooper's chief cameraman turned to him and said, "Hey, nice one, Obi-wan!" 

 

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that in spite of its supposed place as a mere children's popcorn franchise, we've always taken SW very, very seriously. You don't find quite this level of controversy in the latest Marvel flick. And people enjoy it being taken seriously. We all enjoy fighting over possession of it. Right down to "that other crank on Twitter." (Bless him for saying that, it's what Luke would say.) 

In spite of all Disney tries to do to it, SW is still our great evolving national modern myth and we are very precious about it. As we should be. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

13 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I've seen it speculated DJ is her father.

DJ?

[HexMachina]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

DJ?

The one who sells out Rose and Finn and the Resistance when they are captured

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The one who sells out Rose and Finn and the Resistance when they are captured

Del Toro’s character.  Got it.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh, yeah, I have no idea why he is called that. They said we would know when we saw the film, but they also said there would be a new light saber color AND THEY LIED. (flips desk)

[DMC]

Maybe they were lazy and just wanted to call Del Toro "DT," but there was a typo.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh, yeah, I have no idea why he is called that. They said we would know when we saw the film, but they also said there would be a new light saber color AND THEY LIED. (flips desk)

I read somewhere before the movie came out that it stood for "Don't Join" (the first order or resistance.) I'm glad that didn't make it into the movie. 

[Relic]

12 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Here's an entire article on it.

Well, he pretty much nailed it. I've noticed many of the same things in TLJ, and I don't get it. I dislike Rey as a character not because she is a Mary Sue, not because she's a female, not because her parents are "nobodies" but because she treats Chewie as a fucking servant.  

Anyway, time to embrace adulthood fully and let go of this childhood obsession with Star Wars. It will never be what i remember or want it to be. Farewell Star Wars, farewell thread. 

[Werthead]

Quote

 

I don't know if LucasFilms/Disney are just following a business model, kinda like video games with their DLCs or fucking micro-transactions, and they want you to buy the novels, and the comic books and whatever else to get all the answers you want. Though unlike video games, most people can find this info on wiki pages or youtube videos, so the main investiture is really just time. So it's highly irritating that these movies have so much vagueness about the universe and story they are trying to develop.

 

This is a key problem but to be fair it's one shared by the original movies. TIE Fighters, X-wings, Y-wings, Corellian Corvettes and Star Destroyers are not named at all in Episode IV. Vader's command ship is not named until Episode VI and is only then called a "Super Star Destroyer". The word "Sith" is not uttered once in the three original movies.

The big difference is for the original trilogy it was terminology, which wasn't critically important. For the new movies it's critical plot information which should definitely be in the films.

[Happy Ent]

Here’s a cryptic crossword for this episode, to some extent inspired by this thread:

https://thorehusfeldt.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/useless-side-plot-with-rose-and-finn-both-acting-weird-55/
 

Across
1 Blaster Solo mostly nudged by mistake. (7)
5 Just in time, pervading magical force comes back, allowing clear dialogue. (7)
9 Glaring farce, bad editing without direction. (9)
10 Part of film containing origin of Ben Solo. (5)
11 Watch cyborg’s central turret structure. (6)
12 Kick oneself for taking side—postmodern garbage. (7)
14 Current leaders of rebellion investigate Sarlacc’s orifice. (4)
15 In retrospect, volcano remade operatic Star Wars charac- ter. (3,7)
19 Useless side plot with Rose and Finn both acting weird! (5,5)
20 Maybe white males immediately understand agenda. (4)
22 Expand General Grievous. (7)
25 Want Vader to embrace right side of Force. (6)
27 Acid dissolves badly-written minion without explanation, ultimately. (5)
28 Gender-bending ruined tale. Which function did Threepio serve? (9)
29 At the end of the day, Jedi virtues were misunderstood. (7)
30 Hostile alien’s stones. (7)

Down
1 Obi-Wan looks like one who boldy shows it. (4)
2 First off, contrarian lambasted storytelling. (9)
3 Perceptive newspaper journalist supports infuriating, unsubstantial review. (6)
4 They are filled with lifeless actors, like first prequel or clone wars. (9)
5 Cassian conjunctions. (5)
6 Boring writing without emotion ultimately sucks. (8)
7 Made snide remark about dumb Last Jedi. (5)
8 Period of mother-in-law’s hestitation after supreme leader finally confused two characters. (10)
13 Terrible direction without point or taste. (10)
16 Remove classic monster? (9)
17 Alt-right teen stuck in tirade; not salient. (9)
18 Problem for armored Stormtrooper: stop odor eruption. (8)
21 Pilot mostly followed by the Spanish fictional sibling. (6)
23 Dishonest apprentice girl embodies passive female principle. (5)
24 Return of Jedi’s second space endeavour. (5)
26 Wagers Count Snoke’s head. (4)

 

[Darth Richard II]

19 hours ago, RumHam said:

I read somewhere before the movie came out that it stood for "Don't Join" (the first order or resistance.) I'm glad that didn't make it into the movie. 

Yikes, thats awful.

[Bronn Stone]

An argument I categorically reject is "xxx was also bad in the OT". 

The past 15 years or so has brought us reboots of many major Sci-Fi franchises which were sustantially superior to their originals. BSG, Dr. Who, even ST (and perhaps Terminator if you judge TSCC and not the awful films).  Expecting SW to get better is not unreasonable and since it hasn't the comparison with other franchises only makes it that much worse.

I feel I am forced to choose between ignoring TFA and TLJ or renaming RotJ "Brief Return of the Jedi Before They Are Ritually Slaughtered and the Republic Falls Yet Again".  BRotJBTARSatRFYA is not the movie I want to remember so I'm going with 'ignore'.

[Maithanet]

So, I have a question for older boarders.  Does anyone know/remember if people were really speculating about Luke's father after Star Wars came out?  Because it seems like if you were, the only possible candidates are Darth Vader, Obi-Wan (and that is pretty twisted), and Character Unimportant or Not Yet Mentioned.  Which means that IF there was any speculation about Luke's father, the only real contender is Vader.

Is that right?  Obviously this is pre-internet, but I have no doubt there was plenty of discussion about SW given what a cultural phenomenon it was. 

[Ran]

It would be bizzare if people speculated about the identity of Luke's father after ANH, given that we are clearly told his father was a great star-pilot and warrior who fought in the Clone Wars and was buddies with Obi-wan Kenobi until Kenobi's former apprentice Darth Vader killed him. 

I'm going to guess people would largely have speculated about what exactly the Clone Wars were and how Luke's father fell afoul of Vader. The idea that Vader = Luke's father (I keep saying "Luke's father" because I don't think "Anakin" is mentioned in ANH) would have been very much from left field, and I think for the most part viewers would have just gone with what they were told (and they weren't wrong -- at the time, Vader was not Luke's father!)

I feel like the kind of person who did end up going, "Heeeey.... wouldn't it be cool if Obi-wan was lying, and Vader was Luke's dad?" would have been the kind of young folk depicted in That 70's Show, sitting around the table in the basement thinking their deep, weed-encouraged thoughts. (To be sure, I imagine that's what I imagine it was like when TESB was being written, except everyone's a bit older.)

[Bronn Stone]

What Ran said. 

We didn't speculate about Luke's father.  We knew about Luke's father.  He was Obi-Wan's friend and had been killed by Vader.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

25 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

So, I have a question for older boarders.  Does anyone know/remember if people were really speculating about Luke's father after Star Wars came out?  Because it seems like if you were, the only possible candidates are Darth Vader, Obi-Wan (and that is pretty twisted), and Character Unimportant or Not Yet Mentioned.  Which means that IF there was any speculation about Luke's father, the only real contender is Vader.

Is that right?  Obviously this is pre-internet, but I have no doubt there was plenty of discussion about SW given what a cultural phenomenon it was. 

Not after Star Wars.  But after Empire, absolutely.  Heck, I remember my mother giving some sort of justification for Obi Wan lying to Luke about how his Father died.