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Kalbear

The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

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30 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Dunno, but according to official sources, she does.

Actually, I've seen quite a lot of that.

 

wow. nostalgia is a terrible, terrible mistress.

I see the force sort of like intelligence. Sometimes super intelligent people are born to average parents. Sometimes average people are born from super intelligent parents. Having an enriching environment helps; but if you're born super-highly functioning in math, for example, you'll be able to figure it out pretty quickly with a small amount of exposure (caveat: I work with and case manage GATE kids, and have one myself). Rey and Luke are genius at the force, Rey even moreso. The biggest issue Rey's had so far was the temptation of the badboy, but now that Poe's given her the shining pearlies, I think it's safe to say she's back on Team Light.

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1 hour ago, kuenjato said:

wow. nostalgia is a terrible, terrible mistress.

I see the force sort of like intelligence. Sometimes super intelligent people are born to average parents. Sometimes average people are born from super intelligent parents. Having an enriching environment helps; but if you're born super-highly functioning in math, for example, you'll be able to figure it out pretty quickly with a small amount of exposure (caveat: I work with and case manage GATE kids, and have one myself). Rey and Luke are genius at the force, Rey even moreso. The biggest issue Rey's had so far was the temptation of the badboy, but now that Poe's given her the shining pearlies, I think it's safe to say she's back on Team Light.

Do you even know how creepy and fucked up this sounds?

not to mention unintentionally racist.

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1 hour ago, Davrum said:

Probably not if you guys are going to keep bringing up "extra promo material/new EU stuff".

As Master Yoda once said, "Be coherent standing alone a movie should. If to make sense extra promo material/new EU stuff a movie requires, worth less than porg's droppings that movie is."

 

 

Uh, then you must really hate all of Star Wars since about 1993 or so onward.

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Obi wan also described the force as partially controlling your actions. Again, very first movie. Luke succeeds when he allows the force to take control. 

Anakin was prophecied as the one to bring balance to the force. He was born of the force and brought balance. 

I get that you might want the force to be a superpower, but it isn't just that and there's ample evidence to indicate this. 

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11 hours ago, Davrum said:

All three of the new films feature female leads and a mixed-race supporting cast, and yet fans who feel the same way about all three films are in a minority at best.

Speaking as one of them, I'm not at all sure that's a claim you could back up.

As I've noted before, it's not people who're perfectly happy who tend to react the loudest in any medium. I think, based on box office, that the world is pretty full of people who feel the same (positive) way about all three films. Although I will happily admit there's a minority of people who've grumbled about one or the other but pays their money and watches every film just the same. There's no way to distinguish those people from the happy majority, of course, but then is there any real reason to?

9 hours ago, kuenjato said:

Why have Holdo at all, and have the conflict between Leia and Poe simplify and strengthen the narrative? Etc., Etc.

You can't be serious. Poe vs Leia would not work at all as a conflict. Where's the tension in that? 99% of the audience would be like 'oh, Leia must know what she's doing'.

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3 hours ago, Davrum said:

Probably not if you guys are going to keep bringing up "extra promo material/new EU stuff".

As Master Yoda once said, "Be coherent standing alone a movie should. If to make sense extra promo material/new EU stuff a movie requires, worth less than porg's droppings that movie is."

 

Agree 100%, if not more. The idea that the Force has will undermines the agency of those characters who use it, weakening the story immensely.

It's infinitely more compelling if the Force is as Obi-wan, Yoda and Luke describe it ... simply an energy field between all matter which may be accessed and manipulated by those who have enough talent and application. If the Force has will it becomes a type of god, which blunts the edges of the themes of good and evil, and especially of choosing good over evil, immensely.

The original idea was that the Force would be "balanced" if the Sith could be wiped out. That the Sith were some kind of disease which needed to be removed to achieve harmony in the galaxy. "Balance" was never supposed to mean light side and dark side in equal measure. Who the hell would ever aim for that?

No-one? I don’t think that’s what these films are doing, or what most of us here are expecting/hoping for. Rather, a rejection of the two extremes - the rigid, inflexibility of the Old Republic’s Jedi Order and their flawed value system and a rejection of the Smith extreme at the opposite end of the spectrum. The balance is somewhere in between, so both must be reformed. I think Luke sensing a darkness in Rey that she reaches for (arguably I guess that could actually be Snoke’s manipulations) is a sign she is on the right track to achieving balance

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9 hours ago, Werthead said:

...

Well, TLJ reopened the debate on Rey's skills (I'm not calling it by that name because it's stupid). It was assumed that some time would pass between movies and maybe we'd rejoin the action with her and Luke having been training for weeks/months. Then it was assumed that okay, TLJ was picking up straight away and maybe we'd either 1) get a cogent backstory explanation for her skills related to her childhood or 2) there'd be some kind of training montage thing involved. Since that didn't happen there now has to be an explanation of how Rey took down more of Snoke's Praetorian Guard than Kylo Ren - a dude who presumably trained with these very guys for years - despite having almost no more experience than she did at the end of TFA, and having to save Ren when he was effectively defeated by those guys (although it is quite soon after his injuries sustained from Rey at the end of TFA - actually rather remarkably so given how he's healed - so maybe he's still not on top form).

That's a bit more difficult to explain and we can only really fall back on "because of the Force." Which is fine, but again inconsistent with what was established previously (Luke not being able to beat Vader in TESB after 3 years of practice, albeit only against remotes, and possibly only winning in RotJ because Vader deliberately let him, both consistent with his relative lack of experience).

Or to put it another way, the complaints about Rey in TFA were really invalid and easily explained, but in TLJ they become a little more difficult to explain.

There does seem to be an important difference between Luke and Rey though. And that is the way they view the world. Luke is sceptical and influenced by what he thinks is possible, likely as a result of his upbringing. In contrast Rey seems to have grown up more open to the mythology that surrounded her. In addition I can imagine her using the Force subconsciously to survive while scavenging, in a parallel to the way Anakin used his innate talents to succeed in pod-racing. 

This difference shows in training. Luke complaining all the time that tasks were impossible, getting dejected things don't work. While Rey seemed open, willing to try again, and practice and challenge herself in absence of a willing teacher.

This is mirrored by the end scene. The boy who was deeply committed to the story of Luke's last stand and is probably completely sure that the force exists had no problem using it.

 

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Quote

 

Not for combat. Again, it is established (subtle, but there) that Rey has been practicing martial combat for potentially years. 

 

That's why she gets a pass for being able to wield a weapon, know the stances, how to block etc. However, beating off junkyard scavengers is not exactly the same thing as going toe-to-toe with the highly-trained personal guard of the leader of the inheritors of the Empire.

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That was established in Empire Strikes Back when Han used it to make a nice, snug tauntaun sleeping bag.

 

There's a difference between using a lightsabre as a blowtorch for 5 seconds and wielding it in combat.

 

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I may be mis remembering/just wrong here, but I thought it was established in some of the extra promo material/new EU stuff that Kylo Ren just plain sucks ass with a lightsaber.

 

I don't recall this ever being established.

 

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Except presumably we only saw part of Luke's training with Kenobi. It seems likely they worked on it en route to Mos Eisley (a journey too long for Luke to be willing to make before his family are killed, made the day after he decides he wants to become a Jedi), and during the trip to Alderaan we see only the tail end of possibly hours of lightsaber practise.

 

Luke was driving, so that would have been quite dangerous. The trip from Tatooine to Alderaan didn't take very long.

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Dunno, but according to official sources, she does.

 

There's an awful lot of heavy lifting being done by "official sources" for these new movies for thing that could have been explained in seconds of dialogue.

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There does seem to be an important difference between Luke and Rey though. And that is the way they view the world. Luke is sceptical and influenced by what he thinks is possible, likely as a result of his upbringing. In contrast Rey seems to have grown up more open to the mythology that surrounded her. In addition I can imagine her using the Force subconsciously to survive while scavenging, in a parallel to the way Anakin used his innate talents to succeed in pod-racing. 

This difference shows in training. Luke complaining all the time that tasks were impossible, getting dejected things don't work. While Rey seemed open, willing to try again, and practice and challenge herself in absence of a willing teacher.

 

That's quite a reasonable point.

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3 hours ago, Seli said:

There does seem to be an important difference between Luke and Rey though. And that is the way they view the world. Luke is sceptical and influenced by what he thinks is possible, likely as a result of his upbringing. In contrast Rey seems to have grown up more open to the mythology that surrounded her. In addition I can imagine her using the Force subconsciously to survive while scavenging, in a parallel to the way Anakin used his innate talents to succeed in pod-racing. 

 

I think it's very likely that Rey subconsciously was already using the force, not only while scavenging but also while fighting (with the staff). If she can see her opponent's move coming - possibly even before these opponents commit to it - then that would help explain why her reputation on Jakku is such that a rival scavenger is intimidated into giving up BB8 without a fight. 

I agree though that a clear (and rather more positive) relationship between Unkar and Rey should have been established. TFA kind of contradicts itself here, on the one hand Unkar doesn't seem to care in the least about Rey (she's just one of many trying to sell scavenged goods) but on the other hand she has had previous access to his possessions, such as the Falcon. TLJ makes this worse by implying she was sold to Unkarr - why did he want to pay for her unless he saw something useful in her? And if he did, why wasn't their relationship much closer?

Another point: Rey had access to an Imperial Walker (that was her home on Jakku, IIRC) and to at least one Imperial Star Destroyer. Allthough largely plundered by her fellow scavengers, some useful bits (technical documentation, other books, or indeed pilot training programs) may still have been hidden on those things. Given the context of the "chosen one", it's not a stretch to suppose the force could have lead her to find what others may have missed.

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7 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Do you even know how creepy and fucked up this sounds?

not to mention unintentionally racist.

How is that unintentionally racist? edit: I see, referencing in-universe concepts based on binary alignment is "racist." What an incredibly lazy/stupid response. btw it was a joke, originating from my students who "ship" these characters all the friggin time and see that dynamic every other week, but no surprise you get in a druthers about it.

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37 minutes ago, Werthead said:

That's why she gets a pass for being able to wield a weapon, know the stances, how to block etc. However, beating off junkyard scavengers is not exactly the same thing as going toe-to-toe with the highly-trained personal guard of the leader of the inheritors of the Empire.

There's a difference between using a lightsabre as a blowtorch for 5 seconds and wielding it in combat.

 

I don't recall this ever being established.

 

Luke was driving, so that would have been quite dangerous. The trip from Tatooine to Alderaan didn't take very long.

There's an awful lot of heavy lifting being done by "official sources" for these new movies for thing that could have been explained in seconds of dialogue.

That's quite a reasonable point.

I have a simple answer. The prequels are fucking dumb and all the stupid flippy Jedi-ing should be regarded as non-canon.

Luke had days of training that never focused on laser swords to help him fight Vader and while dad wasn't trying to kill him, Luke did get some shots in. And Luke's laser swording in Jedi was sufficient to literally disarm Vader. 

As one who has always interpreted the force as an exercise in empowerment it makes perfect sense that someone who has a strong connection to it and at least some motor control can vastly outperform what might be expected of them in combat.

Kylo was hurt physically and emotionally, and was still firmly in control of the battle prior to inadvertently encouraging Rey to try and connect with the force, at which point the tide turned.

In the Red Room, where they were both relatively healthy, Ren displays far more ability than Rey.

Had Rey successfully taken the lightsaber, I would have picked Ren to defeat her.

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A possible explanation for the years of training needed in the prequels is that back then Jedi were diplomats, law enforcement, investigators and military.  When the clone army turns up theyre already considered qualified to be ranked as generals.

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I think we need to remember this isn’t a real universe; it’s one created by a number of often flawed writers who aren’t all on the same page and have priorities other then creating absolute consistent logic throughout the series.

Right now I’m not sure it’s all that possible to say that there are any consistent rules across all the movies. Johnson has proved you are able to just change things if you really want to, to suit the story you want to tell.

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This video is one of many of its type on youtube that explains perfectly why a lot of guys are so disappointed with the characters in this film.

A lot of it boils down to the women over men theme that is so forcefully being pushed by Disney, by the female Star Wars story group that Johnson submits all his story to, to Kathleen Kennedy, or to whomever is really pushing this agenda in such an overt fashion.

It's basically:

1) Rey over Ren in film 1. Film 2 has a presumably more equal footing but it's still Rey who saves Ren from being murdered by the Praetorian Guard. Of course it is. I think we all know what happens in film 3 and it is not going to be Kylo getting the upper hand over Rey, Disney and Kennedy with her notorious tight control will never have that. It's just a matter of seeing how Ren will be defeated and deconstructed. By Rey of course. She will finish gloriously, and triumphant. 

2) Holdo over Poe Dameron. He's the established character film 1 who is rising in the ranks but of course needs to put into place by random skinny woman. She idiotically chooses not to inform him of her plans which makes no sense at all, but of course at the end Rian Johnson and Kath Kennedy inform us that she was right, he was wrong, and he should have just sat back and trusted her.

3) Finn is now a coward who has to be told to man up and actually be courageous by "Rose" another new woman. Throughout the film he is pushed mentally by her to get in gear. His decisions are verified and overruled by her.

4) Luke. Extremely relucant to act, do anything etc. It's only when Rey leaves that he is inspired, by her of course, to do anything. Thank you Rey, for getting me out of my 30 year funk. Am I not exactly what fans were hoping I would not be once I finally showed up? Indeed you are, thank you Rian Johnson and Kath Kennedy. You thought I would be like the Luke you knew and loved, you thought that the greatest Jedi alive would now train the new promising Jedi? Wrong! She's female, she needs no training at all, and despite her youth she is the instigator, the fire of the resistance, the wiser person, the one who inspires the greatest Jedi. Of course! 

5) Why is the Resistance basically led by an all-female cast, old or young?

Is there even a male character in the film that can be admired or respected? Luke's become Relucant Aragorn who doesn't want to do jack shit and in the end he dies as well because Rian Johnson wants this story to be about Rey, Finn does nothing good that Rose doesn't push him to do, Poe needs to be put in his place, Hux remains an idiot... I mean, even one? Whereas on the other hand we get perfect Rey The Great, Holdo the Commander who always had it right and a perfect, flawless Leia who never once makes a mistake.

Star Wars the Last Jedi: The Schooling.

 

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Only an insecure man would concoct the ridiculous notion that people are responding to a scary female agenda and not, you know, to actual flaws in the story that would be there whether the characters involved are male or female. 

How ridiculous.

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Just now, Ran said:

Only an insecure man would concoct the ridiculous notion that people are responding to a scary female agenda and not, you know, to actual flaws in the story that would be there whether the characters involved are male or female. 

 


Only an insecure man would concoct the ridiculous notion that people are inventing flaws in the OT to defend this film rather than having seen flaws from the start but liking the franchise anyway.

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8 hours ago, mormont said:

 

You can't be serious. Poe vs Leia would not work at all as a conflict. Where's the tension in that? 99% of the audience would be like 'oh, Leia must know what she's doing'.

Yeah so maybe go with a better script,  and less plot contrivance. You only need those scenes because you already committed your plot to a ridiculous space chase that should have ended before it started by the New Order putting a few Destroyers into a hyperjump to get ahead of the Resistance. 

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@polishgenius

That's incredibly low, comparing me to a Men's Right Activist type on Youtube channel is filled with screeds against "SJWs" polluting nerdom and so on (go ahead, check out Calibandar's Youtube guy), but go on, tell me how you really feel.

(I also can't help but note that there's a _lot more_ of "but the OT has flaws" stuff over TLJ than over TFA -- at least on this forum; I don't really go elsewhere for my new trilogy discussion. I have no idea why, other than there is, perhaps, a recognition that there's more needing defense in this film than in the previous film.)

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16 minutes ago, Ran said:

Only an insecure man would concoct the ridiculous notion that people are responding to a scary female agenda and not, you know, to actual flaws in the story that would be there whether the characters involved are male or female. 

How ridiculous.

Yup. Totally. Cal,  your post is pretty scary. 

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