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Kalbear

The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

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The OT's twists made people ask these kind of questions about the new characters. So maybe what TLJ did with Rey's parentage question was simply break the made up prerequisite of characters needing to have epic backgrounds to match their epic deeds.

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36 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

The OT's twists made people ask these kind of questions about the new characters. So maybe what TLJ did with Rey's parentage question was simply break the made up prerequisite of characters needing to have epic backgrounds to match their epic deeds.

Yes, several characters talk about bloodlines and heritage in the film as if they're so important, but if what is learned of Rey's actual parentage in TLJ is true, then those other characters are simply wrong. I love the dichotomy between what Kylo Ren represents with lineage, tradition, hierarchy on the one hand, and what Rey represents on the other.

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1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

The OT's twists made people ask these kind of questions about the new characters. 

TFA encouraged these things. Rey's lack of notable parents is indeed a twist. Also, he identity of Kylo Ren's parents was not initially clear in TFA -- you had bits and pieces connecting him to Luke, and to Vader, but it's not explicitly revealed that he is Han's and Leia's son until after Han and Leia meet which is more than half way into the film, IIRC. So even there, audiences are being invited to speculate.

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45 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Yes, several characters talk about bloodlines and heritage in the film as if they're so important, but if what is learned of Rey's actual parentage in TLJ is true, then those other characters are simply wrong. I love the dichotomy between what Kylo Ren represents with lineage, tradition, hierarchy on the one hand, and what Rey represents on the other.

You kind of see this in the way the FO And Resistance each proceed. Snoke and his belief in Ben because of his heritage as Vader’s grandson, and his conviction Luke would be his equal in the light that must be snuffed out (which makes him disregard Rey). Versus the Resistance “the Oppressed are everywhere, we are the spark to light the fire of Rebellion”

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13 minutes ago, Ran said:

TFA encouraged these things. Rey's lack of notable parents is indeed a twist. Also, he identity of Kylo Ren's parents was not initially clear in TFA -- you had bits and pieces connecting him to Luke, and to Vader, but it's not explicitly revealed that he is Han's and Leia's son until after Han and Leia meet which is more than half way into the film, IIRC. So even there, audiences are being invited to speculate.

Are you saying that when Snoke tells Kylo that the "droid is aboard the Millenium Falcon, in the hands of your father..." that's just a clue, not a confirmation?

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12 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Are you saying that when Snoke tells Kylo that the "droid is aboard the Millenium Falcon, in the hands of your father..." that's just a clue, not a confirmation?

I'm pretty sure he says Han Solo in that scene.

(But yeah I was unspoiled for 7 and the audience went apeshit)

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

I'm pretty sure he says Han Solo in that scene.

(But yeah I was unspoiled for 7 and the audience went apeshit)

I can’t recall when that scene takes place exactly, but my recollection is that even if it takes place before the Han-Leia reunion, it would still have been almost half way into the movie, which is the point I was really trying to make, re: Abrams encouraging speculation.

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On 12/31/2017 at 0:47 PM, RumHam said:

I liked the movie but you do have to wonder what the hell they were thinking not plotting out the major points of this new trilogy ahead of time. Even Lucas supposedly had an outline before he started. Whereas here we have JJ Abrams going in to pitch the story of IX after TLJ came out. Weird. Especially since this is the same company that does the Marvel movies. 

Lucas' outline was incredibly stupid and idiotic and had nothing to do with what TESB ended up doing. Leia as Luke's sister wasn't decided until RotJ (and the 'there is another' was never decided as Leia), and Vader as Luke's father wasn't a thing until Empire. 

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2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Lucas' outline was incredibly stupid and idiotic and had nothing to do with what TESB ended up doing. Leia as Luke's sister wasn't decided until RotJ (and the 'there is another' was never decided as Leia), and Vader as Luke's father wasn't a thing until Empire. 

Not until like the 3rd or 4th script revision of Empire either.

Even the prequels had a different plan to start with. with a lot getting changed after the(ha) fan backlash.

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As to @Bronn Stone's thing about how the OT did it too isn't an argument - of course it is. BSG is a perfectly good example, as is Star Trek. Both had reboots that significantly pissed off a lot of old fans. Heck, Star Wars itself had a reboot that disappointed the shit out of its fans. JJ Abrams had to make a movie that largely showed itself to be a Star Wars Movie, and that meant being even a bit regressive (fewer CGI effects, fewer characters and plot beats) than other things.

I'm sure they could have made a Star Wars movie that shit on the old movies and whatnot, but the difference is that these remain some of the most popular properties of all time, and by doing that you're shitting on a ton of people's nostalgia. 

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I don't really think Lucas' outline for the OT is relevant to the argument that the current trilogy at this point seems ad hoc and disorganized.  Disney and Kathleen Kennedy had all the time they wished to plan the new trilogy and make sure it was cohesive throughout directors and writers.  You can argue TFA and TLJ don't seem disjointed with one another if you want, but that's the criticism.

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3 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I don't really think Lucas' outline for the OT is relevant to the argument that the current trilogy at this point seems ad hoc and disorganized.  Disney and Kathleen Kennedy had all the time they wished to plan the new trilogy and make sure it was cohesive throughout directors and writers.  You can argue TFA and TLJ don't seem disjointed with one another if you want, but that's the criticism.

It's relevant when the person is saying that it's lame that they couldn't do it like the OT, which was the argument made. 

I think that it's reasonable that they could have plotted all three out in broad strokes. I think that isn't remotely how JJ Abrams has ever, ever worked, and him setting up 'mysteries' that would have to be explained later (sometimes very badly) is exactly how he operates. I also think that they didn't have all the time in the world; Disney as a corporation doesn't work on artist's schedules, they work on a marketing plan. Once they had found their person to do TFA, everything was going to happen in a pretty clockwork fashion. 

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8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It's relevant when the person is saying that it's lame that they couldn't do it like the OT, which was the argument made.

Fair enough.  Guess I should have clarified it's not relevant to my criticism.

As for the rest, then that's still on Disney and/or Kennedy.  I agree Abrams has a penchant for unsolved mysteries (great show), but I don't think it's too much to ask that they ensured the "broad strokes" remained consistent throughout the trilogy rather than each movie seeming to argue with each other.

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18 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Fair enough.  Guess I should have clarified it's not relevant to my criticism.

As for the rest, then that's still on Disney and/or Kennedy.  I agree Abrams has a penchant for unsolved mysteries (great show), but I don't think it's too much to ask that they ensured the "broad strokes" remained consistent throughout the trilogy rather than each movie seeming to argue with each other.

Yeah, a lot of the, hrmm, more fanboyish criticism around the net just gets vasic facts about the OT wrong, and it bugs me, and makes me not take anything they say afterwards seriously.

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On 12/28/2017 at 8:28 PM, Davrum said:

Luke also fails constantly in A New Hope, and when he wins it's because of teamwork, not simply his own magical awesomeness:

  • Beat up by the sand people - rescued by Obi-wan.
  • Beat down in Mos Eisley cantina - rescued by Obi-wan
  • Getting tased by training ball droid - guided to victory by Obi-wan
  • Dominated by trash compactor monster - rescued by trash compactor gears clanking to scare it off
  • Being crushed by trash compactor - rescued by Threepio and Artoo
  • About to be blasted out of the sky by Vader - rescued by Han

I stand corrected.

On a completely unrelated note, did anybody notice in Episode 3 that when Palpatine commands the clones to execute order 66, all of the clones respond with "It will be done, my lord", with the exception of Commander Cody who says "Yes, my lord".  Is this an indication that he has no intention of following through on the order, hence Obi-Wan not being killed? 

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2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

It's relevant when the person is saying that it's lame that they couldn't do it like the OT, which was the argument made. 

That actually wasn't a big part of my argument. I thought it was dumb they did not plan the new trilogy out ahead of time. I just said "even Lucas supposedly had an outline" to stress how weird I thought it was. 

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2 minutes ago, RumHam said:

That actually wasn't a big part of my argument. I thought it was dumb they did not plan the new trilogy out ahead of time. I just said "even Lucas supposedly had an outline" to stress how weird I thought it was. 

Right - and that is exactly what I'm talking about. Lucas had fuckall, and his 'outline' had Vader as Luke's extra special enemy, Leia falling for Luke, Han out of the picture entirely and all sorts of bullshit about force crystals and whatnot. 

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Um, but he does follow through. He just doesn't succeed.

But before he yells "Blast him!" to his fellow clone troopers, the screen does cut away as Obi-Wan climbs the mountain on the lizard monster.  Is it possible off camera Cody instructs the other clone troopers to "put on a good show, but don't actually hit him", in the event that Palpatine follows up on the situation?  I thought I heard somewhere that some of the clones refused to follow order 66.  Perhaps this is confirmed in the Rebels television show.

By the way, the order 66 sequence from Revenge of the Sith is better than any scene in The Last Jedi.

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15 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

By the way, the order 66 sequence from Revenge of the Sith is better than any scene in The Last Jedi.

Wow. Okay.

So it was better than the Luke/Ren showdown where Luke brushes off thousands of blaster shots from AT-ATs off his shoulder? It's better than the lightspeed ram? Better than the Rey/Ren guard fight? Huh. I hated that sequence - it made the Jedi look completely idiotic, dying to a few stormtroopers in fairly anticlimactic fashion. A couple of fighters shoot down a Jedi Master? A few troopers are able to actually hit, much less kill, another master? It's just pathetic how fast the Jedi die. 

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