The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

[Corvinus85]

2 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Are you kidding me? That wannabe would be flippin around waving his glow sword and Kylo Ren would mind rape him from across the room. If Anakin ever wondered what way he'd die, Kylo Ren would have chosen one.

You started this argument just so you could lead up to a pun. Well done 

[Jace, Extat]

Just now, Corvinus said:

You started this argument just so you could lead up to a pun. Well done 

[polishgenius]

The shoulder brush had a specific purpose anyway. At first glance it was against character, not because it's funny, but because he's so cut up about his role in Kylo's fall, but everything he does in that sequence is about making Kylo angry and focusing entirely on him.

The lightsaber throw was him remembering how keen and eager he was when he was in Rey's shoes, and taking the piss out of it.

So, you see, not only was the humour not out of character, but it was intrinsically tied in with character.

[Astromech]

25 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

This came about totally randomly.

Anakin would beat Kylo Ren in a duel. Kylo Ren would (possibly) beat Vader in a duel. 

Not if Kylo had the high ground

[Ran]

I have very little problem with most of the humor in TFA and TLJ. They are generally much better at humor than the prequels, from what I recall, and about as good as the OT. That said, the opening of TLJ has a painfully overlong "Yo Mama" joke as its central feature. It was bad.

The nods to Hardware Wars, OTOH, was great.

[Rubicante]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

The modified imperial march that plays when Luke walks out to confront Kylo contributes very well to the atmosphere of that scene. The March of the Resistance song contributes very well to every scene where the Resistance people are in attack mode, and Rey's theme is pretty good, and contributed quite well to the scene that introduces the character? Imo, of course. I guess none of these work for you.

Actually, I do believe a lot of the music in the Force Awakens did work for me, as I did enjoy that movie.  I will have to pay more attention to it the next time I watch The Last Jedi. 

1 hour ago, Eggegg said:

I think the difference is that the humour in the OT was usually very consistent with the characters and the overall tone. Yoda was actually very funny, but it was part of his character to appear to be a bumbling old fool. Han was a funny character due to his abrasive wit and sly takedowns of people around him, but it was also a signal as to his character. 

Luke in the OT is mostly a total straight man, and that was consistent throughout. Suddenly now he's throwing lightsabers off of cliffs, making winks to camera whilst drinking green milk and acting like he's Neo in the Matrix. 

Humour is totally fine, I like humour, but the reason its described as forced is because its not consistent with the tone of the previous movies or the characters themselves.

Thank you for summarizing my thoughts on this perfectly.

1 hour ago, Eggegg said:

Ugh, please don’t remind me of that song 

I believe the name of the song is "Jedi Rocks". 

21 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

This came about totally randomly.

Anakin would beat Kylo Ren in a duel. Kylo Ren would (possibly) beat Vader in a duel. 

Just to clarify.  Anakin beats Kylo Ren in a duel, Vader (pre-black suit) badly beats Kylo Ren, and Kylo Ren beats black-suit Vader.  People seem to view Vader at the peak of his power in the black suit, but you have to remember he has no legs, no arms, and requires help breathing.  I am definitely in the minority on this one, but I found the Vader ass kicking scene in Rogue One to be totally unrealistic for him at that time.  A short time later, he can't even beat Obi-Wan on the Death Star until Obi-Wan just lets Vader hit him (does Vader actually hit Obi-Wan, or does Obi-Wan choose to become one with the Force the instant before being struck down?).

[Eggegg]

42 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

When your nature is based upon naivete, um, yeah, it does change.  And he wasn't humourless straight man in the OT, just someone without a real clue and earnest in everything he did.  Those traits are certainly something that can get tempered with age.  How many Naive and Earnest old people do you know?  While possible, not exactly a common trait.  And his entire nature didn't change, I feel like we watched different movies, in regards to the OT and the NT.

Your last sentence makes no sense.  They didn't have authentic character traits?  I mean, you might not like what Luke became, but he was still someone with a recognizable human personality.  

Yeah Luke was over eager and earnest , and is still mostly earnest in the new movie as well, which is why his random moments of ‘fourth wall breaking’ humour are so out of place. They don’t make sense in the context of OT Luke or NT Luke. They are so obviously injections of humour to stop scenes being too boring, or worse to make Luke into Yoda because polls suggest Yoda is cool, but none of it feels organic.

 

[Astromech]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

I have very little problem with most of the humor in TFA and TLJ. They are generally much better at humor than the prequels, from what I recall, and about as good as the OT. That said, the opening of TLJ has a painfully overlong "Yo Mama" joke as its central feature. It was bad.

The nods to Hardware Wars, OTOH, was great.

The steam iron gets me every time I watch TLJ.

[Eggegg]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

I have very little problem with most of the humor in TFA and TLJ. They are generally much better at humor than the prequels, from what I recall, and about as good as the OT. That said, the opening of TLJ has a painfully overlong "Yo Mama" joke as its central feature. It was bad.

The nods to Hardware Wars, OTOH, was great.

I think the Yo Mama joke is also illustrative of the difference in comedic tone from the OT, and why people describe the humour as 'Marvel' style. 

That whole, stretched out, awkward silence, borderline improvised style humour is very common nowadays, and kind of works in a lot of Marvel movies, or something like 22 Jump street.  But thats absolutely not the style of the OT, where everything is precisely scripted and comedic timing is quick and on the note, and also not written purely for laughs. 

The Yo Mama moment was where I knew something was wrong with the movie, and the green milk moment hammered it home.. Super Leia being the moment I totally checked out.

[Corvinus85]

7 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

Just to clarify.  Anakin beats Kylo Ren in a duel, Vader (pre-black suit) badly beats Kylo Ren, and Kylo Ren beats black-suit Vader.  People seem to view Vader at the peak of his power in the black suit, but you have to remember he has no legs, no arms, and requires help breathing.  I am definitely in the minority on this one, but I found the Vader ass kicking scene in Rogue One to be totally unrealistic for him at that time.  A short time later, he can't even beat Obi-Wan on the Death Star until Obi-Wan just lets Vader hit him (does Vader actually hit Obi-Wan, or does Obi-Wan choose to become one with the Force the instant before being struck down?).

Yeah, when I said Vader, I meant suit Vader. But the scene in Rogue One was good. He was in a hallway, facing average guys, and he is still very strong in the force. He used the force to block and repel shots, no leaping about was necessary there. And old Obi-Wan is still a strong Jedi. 

I think people view suit Vader at the peak of his power in the OT because, like Obi-Wan, he is older and much more experienced, though maybe that's an error, as Anakin/Vader had gained plenty of experience in the Clone Wars.

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I think people view suit Vader at the peak of his power in the OT because, like Obi-Wan, he is older and much more experienced, though maybe that's an error, as Anakin/Vader had gained plenty of experience in the Clone Wars.

All indications are that pre-suit Vader was a truly exceptional fighter, even amongst jedi.  In Episode II, Dooku defeated Anakin and Obi Wan together, before fighting Yoda to a draw.  But then a couple of years later in Episode III, Anakin is able to defeat Dooku with ease. 

This makes his defeat at the hands of Obi Wan rather odd, Vader had every reason to feel confident in such a battle.  Presumably he was unable to focus because he was still conflicted and torn up about Padme. 

Or perhaps it was just that Obi Wan had the high ground 

[Corvinus85]

5 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

All indications are that pre-suit Vader was a truly exceptional fighter, even amongst jedi.  In Episode II, Dooku defeated Anakin and Obi Wan together, before fighting Yoda to a draw.  But then a couple of years later in Episode III, Anakin is able to defeat Dooku with ease. 

This makes his defeat at the hands of Obi Wan rather odd, Vader had every reason to feel confident in such a battle.  Presumably he was unable to focus because he was still conflicted and torn up about Padme. 

Or perhaps it was just that Obi Wan had the high ground 

Yes, the same Anakin who easily defeats Dooku, now consumed by the dark side, is fought to a standstill by Obi Wan and then defeated because "of the high ground." So old, black-suit Vader having trouble against old Obi Wan isn't that odd.

And since this was brought out, I would like to point out that if Force Ghost Anakin had shown up at the end of TLJ, after Luke's sacrifice, he would have said that the circle is now COMPLETE. 

[Ran]

The high ground will get ya every time.

[Derfel Cadarn]

32 minutes ago, Ran said:

I have very little problem with most of the humor in TFA and TLJ. They are generally much better at humor than the prequels, from what I recall, and about as good as the OT. That said, the opening of TLJ has a painfully overlong "Yo Mama" joke as its central feature. It was bad.

The nods to Hardware Wars, OTOH, was great.

I really liked the opening joke. It was Poe manipulating some pompous tit who likely grew up watching Imperial propaganda being told how awesome the empire was by bitter exiles, dreaming of being Tarkin.

[Ran]

It was too long!

[Mark Antony]

I’ve seen the main complaint about the opening joke was that it made a bumbling idiot out of Hux but I couldn’t take him seriously anyway so it didn’t bother me.

[Eggegg]

16 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

I’ve seen the main complaint about the opening joke was that it made a bumbling idiot out of Hux but I couldn’t take him seriously anyway so it didn’t bother me.

Hux IS a bumbling idiot. His performance is so over the top that it’s just one more thing that feels totally out of place 

[Seli]

3 hours ago, Rubicante said:

...

2. Lightspeed Ram: As many people pointed out, this completely changes the dynamics of space battles.  The resistance ship should have just hit Snoke's ship and blown up.  Otherwise, why haven't ships been doing this in the past?  One of those bombers at the start of the movie could have light speed rammed into a Dreadnought to take it out.  In fact, the resistance could have won that battle if they had all of their bombers light speed ram into every star destroyer.

...

We don't know why it worked this time, so we can't make any statements why it is the first time we see it. It deeply depends on how hard you think the Starwars universe is.

On the soft scale, I can imagine you need a 1 in a million chance to make it work at a pivotal time and it will fail otherwise.

On a hard scale I can imagine you need a big capital ship going into hyperspace at the exact point of hitting a huge object that is nevertheless not massive and contains empty space. Or matching space-time distortions if one wishes.

 

[Happy Ent]

A good way to continue the educational trajectory that Disney is on would be to acquire the rights to Lord of the Rings and reboot those.

 

I don’t think society is currently well served with a narrative universe in which a good part of popular culture is enamoured by a cast of characters that is so far removed from the political sentiments of any decent and progressive person. In fact, given the dangers posed by the Trump administration, it would be a moral mistake of the highest order to not update Tolkien’s beloved work and make it accessible to a new generation of movie-goers, freed from the sentiments of a darker time.

It is time… for the Fellowship… to end.

[Corvinus85]

23 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

A good way to continue the educational trajectory that Disney is on would be to acquire the rights to Lord of the Rings and reboot those.

 

I don’t think society is currently well served with a narrative universe in which a good part of popular culture is enamoured by a cast of characters that is so far removed from the political sentiments of any decent and progressive person. In fact, given the dangers posed by the Trump administration, it would be a moral mistake of the highest order to not update Tolkien’s beloved work and make it accessible to a new generation of movie-goers, freed from the sentiments of a darker time.

It is time… for the Fellowship… to end.

Are you proposing the book be rewritten, too? You really want to see happy ents, don't you?

Amazon could very well do this with their series.