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Kalbear

The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

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7 minutes ago, mormont said:

Does anyone other than the alt-right hate on Rose? I haven't seen it, if so.

Huh, good point. I mean, I'm not going to go out and buy a 300 dollar action figure for her or anything, but I see a lot of hate, although I think you are right, most of the outright hate seems to come from a...bad place.

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14 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Coruscant isn't destroyed.  It just isn't the capital anymore for.... reasons.  It was a Coruscant lookalike that was destroyed in Ep7 called Hosnian Prime or somesuch.

Actually, are the "reasons" given? Is this explained in one of the new books?

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16 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

The Alt Right must be enormous then because she seems to be hated by a lot of people 

I think "hate" is a very strong thing for people to have for a fairly lightweight, minor secondary character. Jar-Jar Binks, she is not. 

Anyone who genuinely hates the character is, I suspect, either needing to calibrate their sense of outrage, or (as mormont suggests) has motives that go beyond questions of the character's role, their storyline, etc. and are instead responding to things like the actresses's ethnicity or gender, or perceptions of those things in relation to her presence in the story.

I definitely think that Rose is not any kind of iconic character (yes, I'm sure she'll be cosplayed; people cosplay pretty much anything), and what she had to do was not particularly memorable. The story of TLJ would not have suffered if she was not present, which is perhaps the most damning thing about her, but it's really more damning about TLJ and the parts of the story that aren't really good (sorry, Canto Bight fans; I mean, Monaco-in-Space I'm fine with, war profiteers I'm fine with, but it was no anemically conceived and plotted... I hope they do better with the Solo movie).

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27 minutes ago, Ran said:

I didn't mind a counterpart to Finn -- someone else at the ground-level, one of the otherwise-nameless thousands (well, hundreds) who support th Resistance. And the actress did fine with what she had -- nothing really topped her introduction scene. But the rush to have her go from shocking him to giving him a kiss because (presumably) she's in love with him felt so ... ugh. It undermined a lot of her presence for me, and we're not even going to get into the ill-considered Canto Bight segment.

I mean, I don't disagree about the kiss. But that isn't a criticism of Rose as such, still less 'hating on her'. It's saying that a particular moment in her story feels forced. You can even argue the very reason people hate it is because it undermines her character, which speaks to them feeling positively rather than negatively about Rose in general.

19 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

The Alt Right must be enormous then because she seems to be hated by a lot of people 

OK. But previous to this, I haven't seen any of these people. I've seen many criticisms of the movie, but nobody hating on Rose as a character except the usual ideological idiots.

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32 minutes ago, Ran said:

Actually, are the "reasons" given? Is this explained in one of the new books?

I don't think so. As of yet. I'm sure they will at some point. I actually get a kick out of the hoyl shit we need to retcon these 100 t hings real quick books, they are usually humorous about it.

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think "hate" is a very strong thing for people to have for a fairly lightweight, minor secondary character. Jar-Jar Binks, she is not. 

Anyone who genuinely hates the character is, I suspect, either needing to calibrate their sense of outrage, or (as mormont suggests) has motives that go beyond questions of the character's role, their storyline, etc. and are instead responding to things like the actresses's ethnicity or gender, or perceptions of those things in relation to her presence in the story.

I definitely think that Rose is not any kind of iconic character (yes, I'm sure she'll be cosplayed; people cosplay pretty much anything), and what she had to do was not particularly memorable. The story of TLJ would not have suffered if she was not present, which is perhaps the most damning thing about her, but it's really more damning about TLJ and the parts of the story that aren't really good (sorry, Canto Bight fans; I mean, Monaco-in-Space I'm fine with, war profiteers I'm fine with, but it was no anemically conceived and plotted... I hope they do better with the Solo movie).

Well, I've seen a lot of people call her Jar Jar Rose and say she is worse, which is kind of my point about the random hatred.

 

Edit: I'm beginning to realize booth how awesome this place is and how awful other places I hang out on on the internet are.

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Just now, Darth Richard II said:

I don't think so. As of yet. I'm sure they will at some point. I actually get a kick out of the hoyl shit we need to retcon these 100 t hings real quick books, they are usually humorous about it.

Looked it up on the wiki and it seems that the New Republic rotated its capital on a regular basis to be more inclusive. Why this left Coruscant off the list of planets to be destroyed, not sure. 

 

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

Well, I've seen a lot of people call her Jar Jar Rose and say she is worse, which is kind of my point about the random hatred.

Well, those need their sense of aesthetics calibrated or, again, they are people with some serious gender and/or race issues. Jar-Jar was an eyesore from start to finish, and constantly shoved in our faces. Rose is just kind of a mediocre character by comparison, winningly performed but given not much worthwhile to do.

 

@mormont

Good point on the kiss undermining her character and her relationship to Finn. It was one of those moments where Johnson just dropped the ball on what could have been a less-Hollywood-typical relationship between colleagues/friends. Introducing romance into it was just a complete misfire. I've seen one writer comment their hope that Finn and Rose would play it off as a bit of a misfire, a thing that happened best forgotten about, and I admit I've some hope she's right that that's how Abrams will treat it.

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3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

With regards to Rey and her suddenly being good at fighting, I feel that is incorrect. IT's shown in TFA alone they she can whoops ass with her staff. And the guy she takes bb8 from in the beginning lets her get away with it for SOME reason, and I always felt it was because she could beat his ass.

And here's another article about the numbers: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/27/dont-believe-the-doom-and-gloom-over-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#3150f1fc12bd

I’m sure I said this exact thingin the last thread :P 

2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

It is hard for me to believe that Starkiller Base was a popular move.  Maybe killing billions of civilians for political gain and threatening to do the same to trillions more didn't get much of a rise out of people?

I feel like we're getting into a failure of worldbuilding.  It is possible that the collapse of the empire in ROTJ led to galactic instability, and that many (particularly in the ruling classes) preferred living under their rule.  But we have never seen any indication that was the case.  Have we ever even heard a single kind word about the "order" that the Empire installed and the First Order is planning to reinstate?  Do all of those hundreds of alien races have no problem bowing down to a galactic civilization that clearly favors white human men over all others?  Seems very hard to believe. 

The Empire from Episodes III-VI was believable because they had the power to back it up, and nobody wanted to go it alone against such a powerful fleet.  After ROTJ, why aren't at least some of those alien races arming themselves to prevent that from happening again?  Doubly so considering the Empire still existed, simply weakened from the disaster at Endor.  Are we to presume that humans are both more numerous and more warlike than essentially all other races?  Maybe we are...

How long ago did this happen though? I mean, yeah, getting into ‘everything feels small’ territory again (a criticism I agree with btw) but my impression was that from Hosnian Prime being destroyed to the end of TLJ is not long at all, maybe weeks...hardly enough time for whole planets to wake up and cause hell.

40 minutes ago, Ran said:

Actually, are the "reasons" given? Is this explained in one of the new books?

Just my own thoughts rather than anything official but I wonder if the taint of the Empire being based there (it was right. If not it was the official ‘birthplace’) might have made it a bit offputting to have the NR there?

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2 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I saw this again last night, after watching The Force Awakens the other night. A few thoughts:

[...]

-The Last Jedi flows pretty well from The Force Awakens. The reveal of Rey's parents works well with the themes of the movie and doesn't contradict anything you get in TFA, where all the hullaballoo about Rey's parents still feels central to her character development. Kylo's intensity about finding Luke Skywalker is explained well by what we see in this movie through his version of why he burned the Jedi Temple, and his hurt at being betrayed by Luke explains much about his character. TFA does, however, imply that we'll be getting a lot more info about Snoke. I'm happy he died in this movie, but some backstory for the first order and him was pretty necessary.

[...]

-Overall, I like The Last Jedi a lot, and love parts of it: the throne room scene, Luke's showdown with Kylo, all of Luke's character development, and the scenes between Rey and Kylo. I enjoy the theme of learning from failure, which plays out beautifully with all the plotlines and in Poe's character arc, even if it's a bit rough getting there. I love the way the movie tries new things, even if it doesn't always work.

I think I'd rank it lower than The Force Awakens, which is a more consistent movie whereas this one has very high highs and a few very low lows. 

I'd still argue that part of Rey's force vision in The Force Awakens (her apparent "family" leaving in a ship) is inconsistent with the particular claim made by Kylo in The Last Jedi - while Rey's "they were nobodies" is OK, Kylo's "junkies who sold you for drinking money and who died in a junkers desert" (or something like that, going by unreliable memory) does not ring true to me. I also feel that The Force Awakens played up a personal band between Rey and Kylo, with him being focused on "the girl" as soon as she was mentioned, in what seemed a personal way to me. I wonder/hope there will be an explanation in ep9 for why Kylo reacted to "early rumours" of Rey in the way he did.

Otherwise I agree with you on the general assesment of the movie. The casino plot weighs down what is otherwise a good movie. I also think though, that it is a shame they didn't do the logical thing for the chase: multiple jumps with the First Order following every time (as BSG did in its famous episode "33"), until the final confrontation. 

Most people seem to like the parts between Kylo, Rey and Luke (in any combination).

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Snoke and Ren come across as not only inept but far less skilled too, which I suppose they should as they’re not the product of 1000 years of continual evolution and improvement like the Sith order was, in the same way I expect Rey will be similar in some respects as she hasn’t had proper Jedi instruction.

 

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We rewatched at the theater today.  It’s still very good on rewatch.  Some of the tension is lost but you spend even more attention on the detail in the scenes, the visuals, etc.  Mark Hamill did a great job with Luke’s arc, even if he may not have agreed with it.  The plotholes don’t get any better but I’ve already forgiven them — the entire SW saga is rife with them.  This was a really well made film, which definitely harkens back to the OT and not at all to the prequels. 

We watched TFA five times at the theater, mainly due to my wife.  Just twice is enough for TLJ (and once for R1) despite us agreeing that TLJ is the better movie. TFA had a huge tailwind from massive pent up demand.  If TLJ, as the third SW film in as many years, is at 70% of the box office for TFA, then that looks like a good success. 

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30 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

How long ago did this happen though? I mean, yeah, getting into ‘everything feels small’ territory again (a criticism I agree with btw) but my impression was that from Hosnian Prime being destroyed to the end of TLJ is not long at all, maybe weeks...hardly enough time for whole planets to wake up and cause hell.

 

People are simply scared to hell. Starkiller base is far worse as a terror weapon, compared to the Death Star. It can strike several places at once, from distances of many lightyears, and it picks off entire planets along with any fleets in orbit. If my enemies had such a weapon, I would not join a rebellion against it, if I was ruling a world within its reach.

And how many people know/truly believe it was destroyed? The First Order probably did not advertise this and claims from the resistance may not be believed.

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3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

How long ago did this happen though? I mean, yeah, getting into ‘everything feels small’ territory again (a criticism I agree with btw) but my impression was that from Hosnian Prime being destroyed to the end of TLJ is not long at all, maybe weeks...hardly enough time for whole planets to wake up and cause hell.

More like a day or two. The attack on the Starkiller is pretty soon after it destroys the Hosnian system, the First Order knows the location of the Resistance base and it only takes hours to cross the whole galaxy so their counterattack should be soon after that. And we're told pretty early on in TLJ that they're going to run out of fuel in 18 hours or so.

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You know, I like the idea beyond the whole space chase and everything, and I like it in the film, but it really does NOT hold up to any sort of logic what so ever. Even Star Wars logic.

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9 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Continue!

I don't need to defend TLJ by bringing down TESB, but the notion that the OT is free of plot holes is ludicrous, as is the notion that plot holes mean you can't enjoy a movie. 

Same goes for the Rey as Mary Sue thing - Luke is precisely the same in the prior movies. He can singlehandedly take down an AT-AT with basically no force training, he can obliterate the Death Star without using a targeting computer, he can fly an X-Wing because he flew his version of a Cessna at home. That's what he is, and that's what Star Wars is. 

Ultimately I think one of the things that you're selling short is the First Order's total tactical and strategic incompetence. And I don't like that, personally; I like villains who are smart and heroes who are smarter. But the First Order - just like the Empire - is incredibly incompetent largely due to their fear of authority and their unwillingness to do anything outside rules or the chain of command. Hux is an idiot and simply wants to chase them down because that's how imaginative he is. He's a sadist and wants to see them suffer, slowly, not because it's more efficient or the only thing he can do, but because he can.

When I first saw Revenge of the Sith, despite the numerous plot holes and poor acting on Christensen and Portman's behalf, I really enjoyed the movie.  In fact, I saw it seven times in the theater.  Back in the day, I discussed it on a forum at www.chefelf.com and the hate for the movie was overwhelming.  I did a similar thing in pointing out that the original trilogy also had flaws, and people were not having any of that.  I think at the end of the day you like what you like, and it's almost impossible to get people to change their opinion on something. People will say I am crazy for Revenge of the Sith being my second favorite Star Wars movie after the Empire Strikes Back, and I don't really have a justification for why.  Just something about the atmosphere of the movie really worked for me, as where the atmosphere of Attack of the Clones, Rogue One and The Last Jedi did not.

With that being said, I always found it ridiculous that Luke could get into an x-wing with absolutely no experience flying a spacecraft.  The only "piloting" we see Luke do is drive a hover car.  I think he plays with a toy of a ship at some point early in the movie while talking to C-3PO and R2-D2, but that doesn't mean he can pilot a spacecraft.  I think the reason I like The Empire Strikes Back so much is that Luke is constantly failing, which seemed a lot more realistic to me.  He gets knocked out by a Wampa, has his snow speeder shot down, crashes his x-wing on Dagobah, has a difficult time training with Yoda, and gets his hand cut off fighting Vader.  Rey really hasn't had this moment in the sequel trilogy.  Snoke tosses her around like a doll, but that is short lived.  She is right back to kicking ass.

On another note, speaking of incompetence on the part of the First Order, why does General Hux even agree to talk to Poe at the start of the movie in the first place?  The Resistance just destroyed Starkiller Base. If I were Hux I would be super pissed and not in the mood to talk.  Not to mention talking takes away the element of surprise.

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Finally organized a baby sitter and got out for a movie night over the holidays. Had to choose between Thor Ragnarok and Last Jedi. After much deliberation, I chose Thor.

Afterwards I picked up the crux of what unfolds in Last Jedi from social media and have  decided not to bother watching it at the cinema. 

Sounds like they've destroyed a pillar of every 80's kid's cultural upbringing.

Ah well. Thoroughly enjoyed Thor Ragnarok at least, so not all is lost.

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