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RedEyedGhost

Watch, Watched, Watching: Ringing in 2018

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13 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Not all jokes intended to lay waste to every sub group are the same.  Some can be significantly more reckless or damaging than others.  A comedian can tell two different jokes about the same subgroup, both jokes cringeworthy, and yet one might be way more problematic than the other. 

Duh.

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In addition, the types of jokes a person can tell can change based on what group they are in.  For example, there are a lot of jokes about Jews that would be off limits to me that wouldn't be off limits to you.  Or, they'd be off limits if I didn't want to fall into bigot territory or didn't want to suffer reprisals from the audience

As a Jew, if you made a funny Holocaust joke, I’d laugh. For example, who’s the best Jewish cook?

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There's also considerations like punching up vs punching down, etc.

Comedy allows you to punch in every direction. It just can’t come from a place of hate, which is in part why Chapelle failed.

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Chapelle's transgender jokes weren't just insult comedy, he wasn't mocking the lives and interactions or cultures of transgender folks.  He was mocking and denying their very existence.  Called them men who chopped off their dicks.  It's typical trans/gay panic bullshit that actively harms the transgender community.  Considering a significant percentage of trans women are murdered every year largely for reasons rooted deeply in this panic idea that these are just gay men who cut off their dicks, it's a completely reckless joke to make.  The worst part is that he begins that particular joke segment acknowledging his apparent recent attacks from the trans community for his past jokes, and he didn't give a fuck.  He continued anyway.  

Comedians tend to lean into controversy, for better or worse. But as I and others have said, it was a bad joke, it wasn’t funny and it’s received the criticism it deserves. However,  that doesn’t mean you can go around calling people transphobic because they say they like some of Chapelle’s material and won’t universally condemn him and vow to never watch him again.

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I give zero fucks about pushing 'allies' away.  If they can be pushed away by being told they are wrong, they weren't potential allies to begin with.  Frankly I'm shocked that disproving of transphobia is so controversial. 

You’re letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, and you’re setting yourself up for failure. You can’t expect perfection from everyone at all times.

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9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

As a Jew, if you made a funny Holocaust joke, I’d laugh. For example, who’s the best Jewish cook?

Never heard this one before, please do tell :P 

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6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Wagner the composer who wrote the Ring Cycle.  "Ride of the Valkarie" and such. 

He was born and died in the 19th century, so I guess it depends on if you judge people based on the era they lived in or by modern standards.

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9 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

Never heard this one before, please do tell :P 

Think dude.

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6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

He was born and died in the 19th century, so I guess it depends on if you judge people based on the era they lived in or by modern standards.

That's a huge issue that isn't easily settled.

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16 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Jikes, I wouldn't even try to begin with that. I mean, can a show really be that good for so many episodes? As a rule of thumb, I tend to avoid series which have more than 13 episodes a season (animation and sitcoms, if I were to still watch the latter, excepted). Odds are pretty big that a show is going to be crappy if it exceeds that number. 

You're judging through the lens of US and Brit ways of doing things. This is Turkish, it's historic period drama: 13th century, the founding of the founding hero legends of the Osmans and Ottomans and direct ancestors of Mehmid II and Suleiman the Magnificent -- entirely accurate geopolitically -- but yah, then legend -- it's fabulous!  Don't forget the splendid horses, who are as interested in everything as the human characters.  Not to mention the many significant, brilliant roles there are for actors of the female persuasion, the poetry that is natural to the characters as to who and when they are, seeing the penetration of Islamic literary traditions into 12th and 13th century literature such as the Romances and courtly love, the crusades and the mongolian invasions from the perspective of the then disintegrating lands of Islam - and the terrific fighting scenes, the intrigue -- o, it's just brilliant.

There are others too, like this, from other nations, such India and China, such as the Chinese telenovellas, Nirvana in Fire or Qin: Aliiance.

These are taken from the model of South American and Mexican telenovellas which unite the entire nation -- and even the entire continent and Spanish speaking Caribbean sometimes, such as the Brasilian El Rey Del Ganado, which really helped me with my Spanish during an extended stay in Havana, way back in the day, because it was in Portuguese, Cuban television included Spanish subtitles.  These are on at the same time every single day, and EVERYBODY watches.  We learned not to phone or skype our people in Cuba or Mexico or Brasil until after the telenovella hour.

Edited by Zorral

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20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Duh.

If you understand that to be true, then why the fuck argue that someone like Chappelle is ok because they make jokes about everyone?  

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As a Jew, if you made a funny Holocaust joke, I’d laugh. For example, who’s the best Jewish cook?

I mean, for someone who claims friendship with a nazi defender, not surprising.  But the point was that I could expect reprisals in ways that you as a Jew wouldn't.

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Comedy allows you to punch in every direction. It just can’t come from a place of hate, which is in part why Chapelle failed..

Yes, Chapelle's came from a position of hate.  That's the point.  It was clearly a deeply transphobic joke.  That's my issue here and why someone like that should be boycotted.

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Comedians tend to lean into controversy, for better or worse. But as I and others have said, it was a bad joke, it wasn’t funny and it’s received the criticism it deserves. However,  that doesn’t mean you can go around calling people transphobic because they say they like some of Chapelle’s material and won’t universally condemn him and vow to never watch him again.

 

No, you and others have claimed it wasn't transphobic or that the transphobia of it was ok since he makes jokes about every other group.  The fact that he was previously told that this particular joke is deeply bigoted and harmful and did it anyway makes it even more problematic.  People who refuse to acknowledge the transphobic nature of this joke and how harmful it is can be nothing other than transphobia supporters themselves.  

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You’re letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, and you’re setting yourself up for failure. You can’t expect perfection from everyone at all times

Yeah, no.  I have never suggested perfection be the requirement.  I've consistently used the word 'decent'.  Decency is the very basic I look for and I'm very flexible in how I view decency.  But I'm not going to tell someone they are decent when they intentionally and knowingly are supportive of someone like Chapelle.  If they consider that a problem, that's on them.  Their failure at being decent is not my concern.

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Watched the first episode of Planet Eart 2. Mesmerizing. I'm still amazed at the camera quality and how they captured some of the shots of the animals (the iguana babies through the snake mob, the underwater shot of the sloth swimming, the up close crab migration). I watched a lot of national geographic shows as a kid with my family and you'd think you've seen it all.. but no. There's so much mother nature out there.

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Finished the first season of The Pact (Pakt) Fairly standard conspiracy thriller set in Warsaw. It was decent but nothing really set it apart from other similar series besides being Polish. It may be a while before I get to season 2. Other series I'm more interested in are premiering in the next week or two. 

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3 hours ago, Zorral said:

You're judging through the lens of US and Brit ways of doing things. This is Turkish, it's historic period drama: 13th century, the founding of the founding hero legends of the Osmans and Ottomans and direct ancestors of Mehmid II and Suleiman the Magnificent -- entirely accurate geopolitically -- but yah, then legend -- it's fabulous!  Don't forget the splendid horses, who are as interested in everything as the human characters.  Not to mention the many significant, brilliant roles there are for actors of the female persuasion, the poetry that is natural to the characters as to who and when they are, seeing the penetration of Islamic literary traditions into 12th and 13th century literature such as the Romances and courtly love, the crusades and the mongolian invasions from the perspective of the then disintegrating lands of Islam - and the terrific fighting scenes, the intrigue -- o, it's just brilliant.

There are others too, like this, from other nations, such India and China, such as the Chinese telenovellas, Nirvana in Fire or Qin: Aliiance.

These are taken from the model of South American and Mexican telenovellas which unite the entire nation -- and even the entire continent and Spanish speaking Caribbean sometimes, such as the Brasilian El Rey Del Ganado, which really helped me with my Spanish during an extended stay in Havana, way back in the day, because it was in Portuguese, Cuban television included Spanish subtitles.  These are on at the same time every single day, and EVERYBODY watches.  We learned not to phone or skype our people in Cuba or Mexico or Brasil until after the telenovella hour.

If they are anything like popular Mexican telenovelas, they don't have to worry about sustaining quality, as they usually don't have any to begin with. :lol:

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3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Think dude.

You get an achievement for kicking him in the face in Wolfenstein II.

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I saw the first episode of channel 4's new sitcom 'Derry Girls' apparantly I do watch sitcoms again because this was hilarious. It's about a group of Irish girls (+ one wee English fellow) at a Catholic school in '90 era Derry. I suspect this is going to be a great one :D

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Think dude.

I thought you said:

Spoiler

As a Jew, if you made a funny Holocaust joke, I’d laugh. For example, who’s the best Jewish cook?

What's clever about

Spoiler

Hitler

in this context? Perhaps something is lost in translation, but when I think about a funny holocaust joke I think of something like:

Spoiler

Hitler calls a meeting of his best soldiers and commanders and tells them "Alright I want to order the assassination of one thousand jews and four hedgehogs."

Then one of his generals stands and says "But... Mein furhur why four hedgehogs?"

Hitler then smiles and says "See? No one gives a fuck about the jews."

 (this is probably outrageously offensive to some, for which I do apologise)

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

You're judging through the lens of US and Brit ways of doing things. This is Turkish, it's historic period drama: 13th century, the founding of the founding hero legends of the Osmans and Ottomans and direct ancestors of Mehmid II and Suleiman the Magnificent -- entirely accurate geopolitically -- but yah, then legend -- it's fabulous!  Don't forget the splendid horses, who are as interested in everything as the human characters.  Not to mention the many significant, brilliant roles there are for actors of the female persuasion, the poetry that is natural to the characters as to who and when they are, seeing the penetration of Islamic literary traditions into 12th and 13th century literature such as the Romances and courtly love, the crusades and the mongolian invasions from the perspective of the then disintegrating lands of Islam - and the terrific fighting scenes, the intrigue -- o, it's just brilliant.

There are others too, like this, from other nations, such India and China, such as the Chinese telenovellas, Nirvana in Fire or Qin: Aliiance.

These are taken from the model of South American and Mexican telenovellas which unite the entire nation -- and even the entire continent and Spanish speaking Caribbean sometimes, such as the Brasilian El Rey Del Ganado, which really helped me with my Spanish during an extended stay in Havana, way back in the day, because it was in Portuguese, Cuban television included Spanish subtitles.  These are on at the same time every single day, and EVERYBODY watches.  We learned not to phone or skype our people in Cuba or Mexico or Brasil until after the telenovella hour.

I have to agree with @Annara Snow Telenovella's, based on the small sample I have seen are terrible. Like, pretty much on the same level as a bad soap opera. 

Based on my experience, I would say that the 13 episode limit is pretty hard to beat regardless of culture (again sitcoms and animation are more capable of transcending this limit). Unless the show in question has a really atypical production schedule and a bigger budget than usual, it's hard to make something decent if it has more episodes than that.

I mean think of it, how many seasons of television can you recall where you'd say that an extra episode or two could have improved the whole story? Looking back to recent years, only the first season of The Last Kingdom springs easily to mind, that could have used an extra episode if they had had the budget for it. I can cite way more shows that would benefit from a reduced number of episodes (e.g. all those superhero junk shows they're making now). 

Of course I don't know that Turkish show in question. Perhaps it did have those two things or perhaps it's one of those mysterious flukes that happen occasionally ;)  

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1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

If they are anything like popular Mexican telenovelas, they don't have to worry about sustaining quality, as they usually don't have any to begin with. :lol:

Come on... We all learned the power of true love (between poor A and rich B). We learned that man can be seduced by sex once in a lifetime, only to return to his darling loved one. They had so much... And they are still better than reality entertainment on Serbian TV these days.

58 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

Of course I don't know that Turkish show in question. Perhaps it did have those two things or perhaps it's one of those mysterious flukes that happen occasionally ;)  

Have you watched "Magnificent century"? It has the best of both worlds - costume drama AND telenovela conflicts!!! What more can one look for?

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1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

If they are anything like popular Mexican telenovelas, they don't have to worry about sustaining quality, as they usually don't have any to begin with. :lol:

Some do, some don't.  Just like the rest of tv.

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21 minutes ago, Risto said:

Come on... We all learned the power of true love (between poor A and rich B). We learned that man can be seduced by sex once in a lifetime, only to return to his darling loved one. They had so much... And they are still better than reality entertainment on Serbian TV these days.

Have you watched "Magnificent century"? It has the best of both worlds - costume drama AND telenovela conflicts!!! What more can one look for?

I most certainly have watched Magnificent Century.  Resurrection: Ertugrul is primarly historical period action drama.  It's not soap opera at all, and even less so than Magnificent Century which is confined, in its first season, to the Harem.  Ertugrul's people are nomads, looking for a homeland in the pressures of the mongolian invasions, within the other conflicting pressures of these lands from European crusaders and feuding Islamic powers.

 

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1 hour ago, Veltigar said:

I saw the first episode of channel 4's new sitcom 'Derry Girls' apparantly I do watch sitcoms again because this was hilarious. It's about a group of Irish girls (+ one wee English fellow) at a Catholic school in '90 era Derry. I suspect this is going to be a great one :D

I thought you said:

  Hide contents

As a Jew, if you made a funny Holocaust joke, I’d laugh. For example, who’s the best Jewish cook?

What's clever about

  Hide contents

Hitler

in this context? Perhaps something is lost in translation, but when I think about a funny holocaust joke I think of something like:

  Hide contents

Hitler calls a meeting of his best soldiers and commanders and tells them "Alright I want to order the assassination of one thousand jews and four hedgehogs."

Then one of his generals stands and says "But... Mein furhur why four hedgehogs?"

Hitler then smiles and says "See? No one gives a fuck about the jews."

 (this is probably outrageously offensive to some, for which I do apologise)

I have to agree with @Annara Snow Telenovella's, based on the small sample I have seen are terrible. Like, pretty much on the same level as a bad soap opera. 

Based on my experience, I would say that the 13 episode limit is pretty hard to beat regardless of culture (again sitcoms and animation are more capable of transcending this limit). Unless the show in question has a really atypical production schedule and a bigger budget than usual, it's hard to make something decent if it has more episodes than that.

I mean think of it, how many seasons of television can you recall where you'd say that an extra episode or two could have improved the whole story? Looking back to recent years, only the first season of The Last Kingdom springs easily to mind, that could have used an extra episode if they had had the budget for it. I can cite way more shows that would benefit from a reduced number of episodes (e.g. all those superhero junk shows they're making now). 

Of course I don't know that Turkish show in question. Perhaps it did have those two things or perhaps it's one of those mysterious flukes that happen occasionally ;)  

Pacing is different in different cultures, as is what is effective emotive style. 

When work I have written has been translated into Spanish for theatrical presentation, the words are acted quite differently by a Spanish-speaking actor than to a Spanish speaking audience than English speaking actor would to an English speaking audience.  If the English actor presented so emotionally it would be too much, but it worked effectively on the Spanish speaking stage and for that audience, where the more restrained and flat presentation of an English speaking actor and audience would not have.

That it does't appeal to you is meaningless within its own culture, doncha think?  Especially as you haven't actually, you know, seen any of the series about which I am so enthusiastic, right? :cheers:  Ah, it's wine time and I'm home from Spanish speaking cultures and I think I'll watch some Ertugul before meeting friends for dinner. 

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37 minutes ago, Risto said:

Come on... We all learned the power of true love (between poor A and rich B). We learned that man can be seduced by sex once in a lifetime, only to return to his darling loved one. They had so much...

This is taking me back to the days when they were on every Serbian TV channel in primetime and when my mom, who had just retired, used to hatewatch them. I hadn't discovered the joys of hatewatching yet at the time, so I would complain when I was having dinner in the living room and one of them was on, and she kept watching and talking about how stupid and awful they were. There was one called Rosa Salvaje with a super-kitchy theme song, there was one whose name I don't know that had twin sisters (of course, one was good and the other evil, and you could tell them apart by their lipstick - the evil one had dark red lipstick, as opposed to the lighter colored one of the good sister), an d then of course there was the famous Cassandra, which was a Colombian show.

But the one I remember best was a Mexican one called Marisol. My mom especially loved to hatewatch that one and talk about how dumb the storylines were and how racist it was, and that the only non-white people in Mexican telenovelas she watched were always servants, or a village witch or something, which is all the more startling considering the demographics of Mexico. The lead actress of that show was probably the whitest person they could have possibly found, blonde, blue eyed and as pale as if someone threw a bag of flour all over her face.

But at least people could learn some Spanish. My mom actually picked up a few words - like the words for "my son", 'my daughter' and  -'witch" :lol: Again, according to her, it was easy to learn as "they're probably only using about 200 words in the dialogue and repeating them over and over". :lol:

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And they are still better than reality entertainment on Serbian TV these days.

Getting your teeth pulled out without an anestethic is probably better entertainment than Serbian reality TV.

Edited by Annara Snow

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