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LynnS

Ancient Order of the Sword and Star

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Is there a connection between House Dayne, The Sword of the Morning and the Faith Militant?

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI

"—could be undone." She let that hang there, waiting for the High Sparrow to rise to the bait.

He did not disappoint her. "The Faith Militant reborn . . . that would be the answer to three hundred years of prayer, Your Grace. The Warrior would lift his shining sword again and cleanse this sinful realm of all its evil. If His Grace were to allow me to restore the ancient blessed orders of the Sword and Star, every godly man in the Seven Kingdoms would know him to be our true and rightful lord."

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

Ghost was gone when the wildings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI

"Seven save His Grace. Long may he reign." The High Septon made a steeple of his hands and raised his eyes to heaven. "Let the wicked tremble!"

Do you hear that, Lord Stannis? Cersei could not help but smile. Even her lord father could have done no better. At a stroke, she had rid King's Landing of the plague of sparrows, secured Tommen's blessing, and lessened the crown's debt by close to a million dragons. Her heart was soaring as she allowed the High Septon to escort her back to the Hall of Lamps.

Lady Merryweather shared the queen's delight, though she had never heard of the Warrior's Sons or the Poor Fellows. "They date from before Aegon's Conquest," Cersei explained to her. "The Warrior's Sons were an order of knights who gave up their lands and gold and swore their swords to His High Holiness. The Poor Fellows . . . they were humbler, though far more numerous. Begging brothers of a sort, though they carried axes instead of bowls. They wandered the roads, escorting travelers from sept to sept and town to town. Their badge was the seven-pointed star, red on white, so the smallfolk named them Stars. The Warrior's Sons wore rainbow cloaks and inlaid silver armor over hair shirts, and bore star-shaped crystals in the pommels of their longswords. They were the Swords. Holy men, ascetics, fanatics, sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters . . . there were many tales about them. But all agree that they were implacable in their hatred for all enemies of the Holy Faith."

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII .

The delegation from the Faith was headed by her old friend Septon Raynard. Six of the Warrior's Sons escorted him across the city; together they were seven, a holy and propitious number. The new High Septon—or High Sparrow, as Moon Boy had dubbed him—did everything by sevens. The knights wore swordbelts striped in the seven colors of the Faith. Crystals adorned the pommels of their longswords and the crests of their greathelms. They carried kite shields of a style not common since the Conquest, displaying a device not seen in the Seven Kingdoms

@Lord VarysAre these the words of House Dayne?

The High Septon made a steeple of his hands and raised his eyes to heaven. "Let the wicked tremble!

 

 

 

 

 

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When George first revealed to us he was creating the Swords and Stars, he contacted Linda and I about his past heraldry notes, noting which houses had seven-pointed stars or swords in their heraldry because he wanted to start having it reflect specifically an association with the Poor Brothers or Warrior's. We ran through a bunch, and he suggested changes to some which had had seven-pointed stars up to that point. 

For House Dayne, we originally had the shooting-star have seven points, and noted this. George came back and said we should add an eighth point. Ergo, at the time, George didn't want to raise the possbility of any particular association between the Daynes and the military order. (The sword, of course, he said to keep.)

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22 minutes ago, Ran said:

When George first revealed to us he was creating the Swords and Stars, he contacted Linda and I about his past heraldry notes, noting which houses had seven-pointed stars or swords in their heraldry because he wanted to start having it reflect specifically an association with the Poor Brothers or Warrior's. We ran through a bunch, and he suggested changes to some which had had seven-pointed stars up to that point. 

For House Dayne, we originally had the shooting-star have seven points, and noted this. George came back and said we should add an eighth point. Ergo, at the time, George didn't want to raise the possbility of any particular association between the Daynes and the military order. (The sword, of course, he said to keep.)

That's very interesting.  It doesn't escape me that the sigil of House Dayne is a star and sword or that Cersei refers to the ancient order of the sword and star in reference to the faith militant.  Or that sword of the morning constellation has a diamond in the hilt; while the faith militant style their swords with a crystal in the hilt or that they carry a shield in the shape of a diamond which Cersei refers to as a kite.  Because if there is a connection; it seems to me that the words of House Dayne may well come from the High Sparrow.

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@The Wondering Wolf

For the most part, the idea that families with seven-pointed stars have them there because some illustrious ancestor had been a member of the Stars and the family used the symbol to honor them. Same with swords. It's not a universal rule, but that's why George changed a lot of them away from seven-pointed stars.

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@Ran That's very interesting thanks.

54 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

So Templeton and Sunglass have some connection to the Faith

That certainly holds up in the case of Lord Sunglass in Clash, who is dedicated to the Seven. The Templetons are also a Vale house mind, and therefore the seven-pointed star might reference their roots as Andal invaders (which, granted, doesn't preclude them also having been linked to the Faith Militant. 

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On 12/28/2017 at 0:35 PM, LynnS said:

Is there a connection between House Dayne, The Sword of the Morning and the Faith Militant?

........

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII .

The delegation from the Faith was headed by her old friend Septon Raynard. Six of the Warrior's Sons escorted him across the city; together they were seven, a holy and propitious number. The new High Septon—or High Sparrow, as Moon Boy had dubbed him—did everything by sevens. The knights wore swordbelts striped in the seven colors of the Faith. Crystals adorned the pommels of their longswords and the crests of their greathelms. They carried kite shields of a style not common since the Conquest, displaying a device not seen in the Seven Kingdoms

@Lord VarysAre these the words of House Dayne?

The High Septon made a steeple of his hands and raised his eyes to heaven. "Let the wicked tremble!
 

It's an interesting conjecture, but I don't think it really hangs together, alas.

The Dayne sigil is clearly a reference to the origin of Dawn from the fallen star (meteoric iron), and I would expect this to pre-date the Andal invasion, as the Daynes were around since the First Men settled Dorne.

Kite shields are not diamond shaped (they are the classic early feudal style most associated with Normans in our world, with a rounded top and pointed bottom, see the Bayeux Tapestry for illustrations), so your connection between kite and diamond doesn't fit.

Next, I swear fealty to the King of the Board of course, but as the Stars were the Poor Fellows of the Order, they seem an unlikely source for 'illustrious' forebears - which probably just means that any such forebears were members of the Swords, but still chose the seven-pointed star as a symbol of faith. Given Maegor's edict it seems unlikely that any Poor Fellows were ever raised up to nobility, though I guess it's possible - given that it only takes a knight to make a knight - that some members of the Swords could have dubbed some members of the Stars. Such families would have to have origins around that era to fit this theory.

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14 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

It's an interesting conjecture, but I don't think it really hangs together, alas.

The Dayne sigil is clearly a reference to the origin of Dawn from the fallen star (meteoric iron), and I would expect this to pre-date the Andal invasion, as the Daynes were around since the First Men settled Dorne.

Kite shields are not diamond shaped (they are the classic early feudal style most associated with Normans in our world, with a rounded top and pointed bottom, see the Bayeux Tapestry for illustrations), so your connection between kite and diamond doesn't fit.

Next, I swear fealty to the King of the Board of course, but as the Stars were the Poor Fellows of the Order, they seem an unlikely source for 'illustrious' forebears - which probably just means that any such forebears were members of the Swords, but still chose the seven-pointed star as a symbol of faith. Given Maegor's edict it seems unlikely that any Poor Fellows were ever raised up to nobility, though I guess it's possible - given that it only takes a knight to make a knight - that some members of the Swords could have dubbed some members of the Stars. Such families would have to have origins around that era to fit this theory.

Whatever we might interpret the Dayne sigil to mean; essentially it is a star and a sword.  Whether or not the Faith Militant exists in it's original form is another matter.  I doubt they include sorcerers and demon hunters in it's current form; but the story is interesting since a magic sword as this one appears to be probably requires some sorcery in the forging.  

Regardless of what the Bayeux tapestry portrays, all we know is that the shield is shaped like a kite.  

https://a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/jewelry/upload/94/568/XXX_94_1354589986_1.jpg

 

     

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13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

all we know is that the shield is shaped like a kite.  

GRRM knows full well what a kite shield is, as does anyone else with an unhealthy interest in mediaeval warfare; it is a specific name for a specific design, not just a casual simile. If he meant the Warrior's Sons to have diamond-shaped shields he would have said so, rather than use a known thing which is not diamond-shaped. All of his other descriptions of equipment are consistent with real-world cognates: his bastard swords are bastard swords, his half-helms are half-helms, his nasal helmets are nasal helmets...

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46 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Next, I swear fealty to the King of the Board of course, but as the Stars were the Poor Fellows of the Order, they seem an unlikely source for 'illustrious' forebears - which probably just means that any such forebears were members of the Swords, but still chose the seven-pointed star as a symbol of faith. Given Maegor's edict it seems unlikely that any Poor Fellows were ever raised up to nobility, though I guess it's possible - given that it only takes a knight to make a knight - that some members of the Swords could have dubbed some members of the Stars. Such families would have to have origins around that era to fit this theory.

Makes me want to bend the knee right now.  Don't these early religious "knights" sound a lot like the Templars?   

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27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Whatever we might interpret the Dayne sigil to mean; essentially it is a star and a sword.  Whether or not the Faith Militant exists in it's original form is another matter.  I doubt they include sorcerers and demon hunters in it's current form; but the story is interesting since a magic sword as this one appears to be probably requires some sorcery in the forging.  

Regardless of what the Bayeux tapestry portrays, all we know is that the shield is shaped like a kite.  

https://a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/jewelry/upload/94/568/XXX_94_1354589986_1.jpg

 

     

Now THAT is a rock.  

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5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Makes me want to bend the knee right now.  Don't these early religious "knights" sound a lot like the Templars? 

Very much so, with the two levels, the Knights themselves and the Templar Sergeants being of lower birth, as the Poor Fellows are.  I'm sure Jacques de Molay would have much to discuss with the High Sparrow :D

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5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Now THAT is a rock.  

I imagine that the Dawn Sword may well have a diamond in it's pommel - the heart of a fallen star -  just like the sword of the morning constellation.

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10 hours ago, LynnS said:

I imagine that the Dawn Sword may well have a diamond in it's pommel - the heart of a fallen star -  just like the sword of the morning constellation.

So close to my own thoughts.  I looked at that sparkly and thought the brightest star in the sky.  We definitely need more intel on the Daynes and Dawn. 

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20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

So close to my own thoughts.  I looked at that sparkly and thought the brightest star in the sky.  We definitely need more intel on the Daynes and Dawn. 

I think the High Sparrow is attempting to remake the Faith Militant into some far older sacred order.  It's curious that the stories of the ancient order number sorcerers, demon slayers and dragonslayers in their number.  Perhaps Melisandre knows more about it than she has said.  The reason why she says the Wall is as much her place as Jon's.   I wonder if the ancient order was another form of the Night's Watch - the reason that sworn brothers are the sword that burns in the night and the shield that protects the realm.  Perhaps even the precursor of the Watch.

And so the similarities between the Sword of the Morning constellation with it's star shining like a diamond and the swords of the Faith Militant styled after the constellation with crystals in their pommels.  The crystal shining or alive with light has some significance to the Faith of the Seven and so might it be tied to the Dawn Sword of House Dayne itself or the history of that sword?  

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Dawn Sword is also described as alive with light or that the sigil of House Dayne is essentially a sword and a star.  

So the question is not so much about the history of House Dayne as it is the history of the sword itself.

I'm also curious about the power of crystals in the story.  We know Mel uses her ruby in some fashion to connect with other rubies.  Does she also use the power the Wall.  The wall is a hinge not only connecting one place with another; but one object with another.  

The description of the Wall rippling with color during Melisandre's display of Lightbringer, a storm of light, burning Rattlebones and the horn almost ends her.  Perhaps she is drawing too much power?    

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8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think the High Sparrow is attempting to remake the Faith Militant into some far older sacred order.  It's curious that the stories of the ancient order number sorcerers, demon slayers and dragonslayers in their number.  Perhaps Melisandre knows more about it than she has said.  The reason why she says the Wall is as much her place as Jon's.   I wonder if the ancient order was another form of the Night's Watch - the reason that sworn brothers are the sword that burns in the night and the shield that protects the realm.  Perhaps even the precursor of the Watch.

And so the similarities between the Sword of the Morning constellation with it's star shining like a diamond and the swords of the Faith Militant styled after the constellation with crystals in their pommels.  The crystal shining or alive with light has some significance to the Faith of the Seven and so might it be tied to the Dawn Sword of House Dayne itself or the history of that sword?  

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Dawn Sword is also described as alive with light or that the sigil of House Dayne is essentially a sword and a star.  

So the question is not so much about the history of House Dayne as it is the history of the sword itself.

I'm also curious about the power of crystals in the story.  We know Mel uses her ruby in some fashion to connect with other rubies.  Does she also use the power the Wall.  The wall is a hinge not only connecting one place with another; but one object with another.  

The description of the Wall rippling with color during Melisandre's display of Lightbringer, a storm of light, burning Rattlebones and the horn almost ends her.  Perhaps she is drawing too much power?    

LynnS, I can't pretend to have the encyclopedic knowledge of the history of Westeros that you have.   Really, I'm just here learning a few things and have little to add to your conversation other than: 

I've read that House Dayne can trace its ancestry back 10,000 years and that really says something in a discussion about ancient orders.   

Mel calls The Wall a Hinge of the World--I think this is akin to a lei line if you're into magical energy lines. 

Please add The Others' swords to your list of strange color and maybe their armor too.  

This conversation is much bigger than my small contributions, but it is fascinating and I'm watching.  

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8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

LynnS, I can't pretend to have the encyclopedic knowledge of the history of Westeros that you have.   Really, I'm just here learning a few things and have little to add to your conversation other than: 

I've read that House Dayne can trace its ancestry back 10,000 years and that really says something in a discussion about ancient orders.   

Mel calls The Wall a Hinge of the World--I think this is akin to a lei line if you're into magical energy lines. 

Please add The Others' swords to your list of strange color and maybe their armor too.  

This conversation is much bigger than my small contributions, but it is fascinating and I'm watching.  

I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge by any stretch.  LOL!  That would be Ran's bailiwick.  But I am very curious about all these connections.  I would even go so far as to name the High Sparrow the Knight of the Laughing Tree, given that he is a small man who might have been a hedge knight at some point.  The fact that the Knight admonishes the lords to teach their knights honor, to behave as true knights, would be right up the High Sparrow's alley.  His feet are described as gnarled like tree roots.  Do knights take their vows to the old gods and the new?

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16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

His feet are described as gnarled like tree roots.  Do knights take their vows to the old gods and the new?

That would be interest, but I can't see it.The Faith of the Seven and the Old Gods have coexiste somewhat peacefully for the last centuries, but it's not an easy relationship. Cercei arms the faith in the hopes that they will take arms agains those who worship the Red God, the Drowned God and the Old Gods. She's not delusional about that. A knight takes a vigil in a sept and is later anointed by a septon. It's not one-to-one of course, but the Faith is based on the Catholic Church, which is pretty adamant about there only being one true god... really can't see the pious High Septon making common cause with tree worshippers, much less being one of them. 

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15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge by any stretch.  LOL!  That would be Ran's bailiwick.  But I am very curious about all these connections.  I would even go so far as to name the High Sparrow the Knight of the Laughing Tree, given that he is a small man who might have been a hedge knight at some point.  The fact that the Knight admonishes the lords to teach their knights honor, to behave as true knights, would be right up the High Sparrow's alley.  His feet are described as gnarled like tree roots.  Do knights take their vows to the old gods and the new?

We were just talking about knights and determined that there are many ways to become a knight.   I don't think the Old Gods enter into knighthood at all (beyond the NW, that is).  A knight can "make" a knight in the field like Jamie or Dunc.   Some knights belong to orders but many more do not.   I think there is a "Knightly Code" from way back that describes or prescribes a knight's conduct and I found it remarkably consistent with the NW vows.   Knights just aren't a thing in the north.  For all it's worth.   Would you like me to try to find the code again? 

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When the Faith first came tô Westeros with the Andals they actually engaded in war with the first men and cut down sacred trees right? 

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