LynnS Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said: That would be interest, but I can't see it.The Faith of the Seven and the Old Gods have coexiste somewhat peacefully for the last centuries, but it's not an easy relationship. Cercei arms the faith in the hopes that they will take arms agains those who worship the Red God, the Drowned God and the Old Gods. She's not delusional about that. A knight takes a vigil in a sept and is later anointed by a septon. It's not one-to-one of course, but the Faith is based on the Catholic Church, which is pretty adamant about there only being one true god... really can't see the pious High Septon making common cause with tree worshippers, much less being one of them. I'm really talking about the oldest form of the swords and stars - or more specifically the original form. The Faith is taking it's symbols from the ancient order which included sorcerers, demonslayers and dragonslayers. We don't know much about the high sparrow's past except that the current High Septon was replaced because he wasn't up to standards. So the Faith is being re-made into something else. Why does a knight wearing the device of the old gods admonish knights to behave with honor? Quote A Clash of Kings - Catelyn II Beauty, they called her . . . mocking. The hair beneath the visor was a squirrel's nest of dirty straw, and her face . . . Brienne's eyes were large and very blue, a young girl's eyes, trusting and guileless, but the rest . . . her features were broad and coarse, her teeth prominent and crooked, her mouth too wide, her lips so plump they seemed swollen. A thousand freckles speckled her cheeks and brow, and her nose had been broken more than once. Pity filled Catelyn's heart. Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman? And yet, when Renly cut away her torn cloak and fastened a rainbow in its place, Brienne of Tarth did not look unfortunate. Her smile lit up her face, and her voice was strong and proud as she said, "My life for yours, Your Grace. From this day on, I am your shield, I swear it by the old gods and the new." The way she looked at the king—looked down at him, she was a good hand higher, though Renly was near as tall as his brother had been—was painful to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran VII "Oh, very well," Luwin muttered. "So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea. "The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new godspainted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—" Now, this is all the 41 occasions in the five books "old gods" and "new" appear in the same paragraph: https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=old+gods+and+the+new&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc its mostly people saying "I swear it by the old gods and the new". @LynnS do you think the order of the star and sword precedes the faith of the seven and the Andals? Do we have evidence of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said: @LynnS do you think the order ignore the star and sword precedes the faith of the seven and the Andals? Do we have evidence of this? Brienne swears by the old gods and new when she becomes one of Renly's rainbow guard. I don't think we have an example of the KG specifically. I do think the order of the star and sword precedes the Faith in it's current form. There are stories about the 'ancient' order including sorcerers, demon hunters and dragonslayers. The warrior they venerate carries a shining sword in the dark. I think this is very suggestive. It seems to be another variation of the prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Snow Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 21 hours ago, Lady Dacey said: Do we have evidence of this? I thought it was an interesting idea so went back to the text to see, but I don't think it is strongly supported: In the text there is no 'Order of the Sword and Star'; the Faith Militant comprised two seperate Orders - the Warrior's Sons, and the Poor Fellows, which the smallfolk called 'the Swords' and 'the Stars' because of their respective sigils. Cersei refers to tales about them being 'sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters' etc and doesn't refer to them as 'ancient', only pre-dating Aegon's conquest (300 years earlier). Quote A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI Lady Merryweather shared the queen's delight, though she had never heard of the Warrior's Sons or the Poor Fellows. "They date from before Aegon's Conquest," Cersei explained to her. "The Warrior's Sons were an order of knights who gave up their lands and gold and swore their swords to His High Holiness. The Poor Fellows . . . they were humbler, though far more numerous. Begging brothers of a sort, though they carried axes instead of bowls. They wandered the roads, escorting travelers from sept to sept and town to town. Their badge was the seven-pointed star, red on white, so the smallfolk named them Stars. The Warrior's Sons wore rainbow cloaks and inlaid silver armor over hair shirts, and bore star-shaped crystals in the pommels of their longswords. They were the Swords. Holy men, ascetics, fanatics, sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters . . . there were many tales about them. But all agree that they were implacable in their hatred for all enemies of the Holy Faith." Quote The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest To the west, Aegon Targaryen met a warmer welcome. The greatest city in all of Westeros, Oldtown was ringed about with massive walls and ruled by the Hightowers of Hightower, the oldest, richest, and most powerful of the noble houses of the Reach. Oldtown was also the center of the Faith. There dwelt the High Septon, Father of the Faithful, the voice of the new gods on earth, who commanded the obedience of millions of the devout throughout the realms (save in the North, where the old gods still held sway), and the blades of the Faith Militant, the fighting orders the smallfolk called the Stars and Swords. Now, this doesn't rule out the smallfolk carrying a folk-memory of an earlier 'Sword and Star' organisation, and it does make a good description of the House Dayne heraldry who claim their house was founded 10,000 years before. There's still a lot unrevealed about House Dayne (such as their Words!), and as has been pointed out the whole melange of ideas around Dawn/ the Dawn Age/ Sword of the Morning does suggest a lot. From their claimed history, the Daynes were established as First Men Kings of the Torrentine long before the Long Night, so it is perfectly possible that they had some part in the war against the Others, and with the tales about Dawn, that could be a very significant part. The sword was forged from a fallen star which was claimed to have magical properties and is only wielded by a worthy knight of House Dayne (whereas most 'storied' swords go to the current Lord), so there is not always a 'Sword of the Morning' - for instance, now, as we wait for Winds to come out.... If we take the stories at face value, the sword itself must be 10,000 years old, and can clearly be described as a 'hero's sword'. In fact, just the sort of sword that the Last Hero might have carried... and if the Last Hero was a Dayne, might that explain the fondness between the Houses of Dayne and Stark? At the time of the Long Night, if the Last Hero was indeed a 'sword and star', ie a Dayne, being from a First Men family, he would have been 'implacable in (his) hatred for all enemies' of the Old Gods - namely the Others. And now I'm going beyond the text, so will have to give myself a pedant's slap, and return to the books... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said: I thought it was an interesting idea so went back to the text to see, but I don't think it is strongly supported: In the text there is no 'Order of the Sword and Star'; the Faith Militant comprised two seperate Orders - the Warrior's Sons, and the Poor Fellows, which the smallfolk called 'the Swords' and 'the Stars' because of their respective sigils. Cersei refers to tales about them being 'sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters' etc and doesn't refer to them as 'ancient', only pre-dating Aegon's conquest (300 years earlier). Now, this doesn't rule out the smallfolk carrying a folk-memory of an earlier 'Sword and Star' organisation, and it does make a good description of the House Dayne heraldry who claim their house was founded 10,000 years before. There's still a lot unrevealed about House Dayne (such as their Words!), and as has been pointed out the whole melange of ideas around Dawn/ the Dawn Age/ Sword of the Morning does suggest a lot. From their claimed history, the Daynes were established as First Men Kings of the Torrentine long before the Long Night, so it is perfectly possible that they had some part in the war against the Others, and with the tales about Dawn, that could be a very significant part. The sword was forged from a fallen star which was claimed to have magical properties and is only wielded by a worthy knight of House Dayne (whereas most 'storied' swords go to the current Lord), so there is not always a 'Sword of the Morning' - for instance, now, as we wait for Winds to come out.... If we take the stories at face value, the sword itself must be 10,000 years old, and can clearly be described as a 'hero's sword'. In fact, just the sort of sword that the Last Hero might have carried... and if the Last Hero was a Dayne, might that explain the fondness between the Houses of Dayne and Stark? At the time of the Long Night, if the Last Hero was indeed a 'sword and star', ie a Dayne, being from a First Men family, he would have been 'implacable in (his) hatred for all enemies' of the Old Gods - namely the Others. And now I'm going beyond the text, so will have to give myself a pedant's slap, and return to the books... Thank you! The word ancient itself describes something existing in the distant past and not something that exists in the current story. So I think there was some sacred order of the star and sword connected to the Dawn Sword. Yes a sword crafted or forged with magic, so I'm not surprised that sorcerers are numbered among their company. There is a certain alchemy associated with smiths who were believed to forge their blades using earth, air, fire and water. The memory or lore of the ancient order seems to be preserved in some fashion within the Faith Militant and possibly even the Night's Watch. It's these broken bits of history that are fascinating to piece together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darion Storm Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 This name is unofficial, their official name is “The Faith Militant”, but they are also called the “Swords and Stars” because that is what smallfolk called them. The Warrior’s Sons display a rainbow coloured sword, so the smallfolk called them “The Swords”. The Poor Fellows display a red seven-pointed-star, so the smallfolk called them “The Stars”. The sigil of House Dayne is a reference to the legend of their origins, before the Faith even came to Westeros. Any relation to other heraldry is assuredly coincidental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Darion Storm said: This name is unofficial, their official name is “The Faith Militant”, but they are also called the “Swords and Stars” because that is what smallfolk called them. The Warrior’s Sons display a rainbow coloured sword, so the smallfolk called them “The Swords”. The Poor Fellows display a red seven-pointed-star, so the smallfolk called them “The Stars”. The sigil of House Dayne is a reference to the legend of their origins, before the Faith even came to Westeros. Any relation to other heraldry is assuredly coincidental. Cersei refers to stories of the ancient order of star and sword; so I don't think it's coincidental that House Dayne's sigil is a star and sword or that the swords and stars of the faith retain a relic of that lore in their own charges and devices. The swords of the warriors sons have a crystal in their pommel and I think this is a reference to the constellation the sword of the morning with a star like a diamond in it's pommel. So there is a persistent iconography between the three that I don't think can be dismissed because there is no current connection or history between House Dayne, or more specifically the Dawn Sword and the Faith Militant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 7 hours ago, LynnS said: Cersei refers to stories of the ancient order of star and sword; so I don't think it's coincidental that House Dayne's sigil is a star and sword or that the swords and stars of the faith retain a relic of that lore in their own charges and devices. The swords of the warriors sons have a crystal in their pommel and I think this is a reference to the constellation the sword of the morning with a star like a diamond in it's pommel. So there is a persistent iconography between the three that I don't think can be dismissed because there is no current connection or history between House Dayne, or more specifically the Dawn Sword and the Faith Militant. Only the Dayne star is a eight-point star precisely because GRRM didn't want the readers to associate that house with the faith... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 On 12/28/2017 at 4:35 AM, LynnS said: Is there a connection between House Dayne, The Sword of the Morning and the Faith Militant? A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI "—could be undone." She let that hang there, waiting for the High Sparrow to rise to the bait. He did not disappoint her. "The Faith Militant reborn . . . that would be the answer to three hundred years of prayer, Your Grace. The Warrior would lift his shining sword again and cleanse this sinful realm of all its evil. If His Grace were to allow me to restore the ancient blessed orders of the Sword and Star, every godly man in the Seven Kingdoms would know him to be our true and rightful lord." A Storm of Swords - Jon IV Ghost was gone when the wildings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface. A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI "Seven save His Grace. Long may he reign." The High Septon made a steeple of his hands and raised his eyes to heaven. "Let the wicked tremble!" Do you hear that, Lord Stannis? Cersei could not help but smile. Even her lord father could have done no better. At a stroke, she had rid King's Landing of the plague of sparrows, secured Tommen's blessing, and lessened the crown's debt by close to a million dragons. Her heart was soaring as she allowed the High Septon to escort her back to the Hall of Lamps. Lady Merryweather shared the queen's delight, though she had never heard of the Warrior's Sons or the Poor Fellows. "They date from before Aegon's Conquest," Cersei explained to her. "The Warrior's Sons were an order of knights who gave up their lands and gold and swore their swords to His High Holiness. The Poor Fellows . . . they were humbler, though far more numerous. Begging brothers of a sort, though they carried axes instead of bowls. They wandered the roads, escorting travelers from sept to sept and town to town. Their badge was the seven-pointed star, red on white, so the smallfolk named them Stars. The Warrior's Sons wore rainbow cloaks and inlaid silver armor over hair shirts, and bore star-shaped crystals in the pommels of their longswords. They were the Swords. Holy men, ascetics, fanatics, sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters . . . there were many tales about them. But all agree that they were implacable in their hatred for all enemies of the Holy Faith." A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII . The delegation from the Faith was headed by her old friend Septon Raynard. Six of the Warrior's Sons escorted him across the city; together they were seven, a holy and propitious number. The new High Septon—or High Sparrow, as Moon Boy had dubbed him—did everything by sevens. The knights wore swordbelts striped in the seven colors of the Faith. Crystals adorned the pommels of their longswords and the crests of their greathelms. They carried kite shields of a style not common since the Conquest, displaying a device not seen in the Seven Kingdoms @Lord VarysAre these the words of House Dayne? The High Septon made a steeple of his hands and raised his eyes to heaven. "Let the wicked tremble! I think that this is an interesting catch and have been traveling down a some what similar road. Though im a little stuck in figuring out which side forged what sword in association to which side. Nice catch on the pummel, but note also the Heart in the pummel of Lady Forlorn. I can't tell if these are nods to Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa? or is the two type's of pummels represent opposing sides. Here is a brief look at my proposed family tree and time line. Showing what i think are the two sides. Curse on Barrow of the First King Garth the Gardener God on Earth – 10,000 years I I The Dawn Age I----------------------------------------------I-------------------------------------------------------I **** Garth the gardener. Rose Of The Grey King- 1000 years Pear Emperor. ========== Red Lake. Opal Emperor. I Last of the Brandon of the Bloody Blade. I Fisher Queens . === (3000 years ago) I I (Activated curse on Barrow of first king) I The Age of Heroes and the Long Night. I ****** I--------------------I------------------------I I-------------------------I---------------------------I Garth V?==Daeryssa ===Serwyn of Mirror Shield Uthor of Hightower == Nissa Nissa==Brandon the Breaker Ser Artys Arryn Hugor of the hill Defeats his brother night’s king Forges Dawn? Huzhor Amai I Azor Ahai- Forges Dawn? Or Ice? I Brandon the Builder- Builds Wall I Bloodstone Emperor I Night’s King I 2000 years ago. I I I I I I----------------------------------------------------I I Jon Arryn === Lysa Tully Caitlynn Tully====Eddard Stark I I Sweet Robin Arryn Brandon Stark The Raven and his cousin The Crow Quote A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII "The crow is the raven's poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood." As you can tell, im not sure which side forged Dawn. (My tree may have some errors still, im working it all out still). On 12/28/2017 at 5:44 AM, Ran said: When George first revealed to us he was creating the Swords and Stars, he contacted Linda and I about his past heraldry notes, noting which houses had seven-pointed stars or swords in their heraldry because he wanted to start having it reflect specifically an association with the Poor Brothers or Warrior's. We ran through a bunch, and he suggested changes to some which had had seven-pointed stars up to that point. For House Dayne, we originally had the shooting-star have seven points, and noted this. George came back and said we should add an eighth point. Ergo, at the time, George didn't want to raise the possbility of any particular association between the Daynes and the military order. (The sword, of course, he said to keep.) Could this have something to do with the Octarchy of Old Ghis? Or possibly 8/9 of the kingdoms. Though we call them 7, there seems to be 9 total. With 1 cut off by the Wall. 1-kingdom-1-curse-1-wall/ In here i talk a little bit about the idea, though my main question i guess, is there factions possibly connected to this. Say, like House Dayne with their 8 pointed star? I can't help but feel like there are 3 main factions, those of ice, those of fire, and those seeking balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 No. George had no concept of the Octarchy at the time. He didn't want a mullet (5 pointed star), so it was simply add or remove a point to the star. Nothing more to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, Ran said: No. George had no concept of the Octarchy at the time. He didn't want a mullet (5 pointed star), so it was simply add or remove a point to the star. Nothing more to it. Why is he apposed to a 5 pointed star? Quote A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI "How disappointing." For all her talk about wanting to be mistress of her seat, Selyse Baratheon seemed in no great haste to abandon the comforts of Castle Black for the shadows of the Nightfort. She kept guards, of course—four men posted at the door, two outside on the steps, two inside by the brazier. Commanding them was Ser Patrek of King's Mountain, clad in his knightly raiment of white and blue and silver, his cloak a spatter of five-pointed stars . Are they already representative of something like the 5 forts or something? Seems odd still Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 He hadn't come up with the Five Forts then, either... Remember, this is all pre-AFfC stuff. We went through a number of houses, and he was distributing different kinds of stars to different ones. He'd already used the mullet a couple of times in changes right before that, so obviously felt it was a bit boring to do it yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Ran said: He hadn't come up with the Five Forts then, either... We went through a number of houses, and he was distributing different kinds of stars to different ones. He'd already used the mullet a couple of times in changes right before that, so obviously felt it was a bit boring to do it yet again. Fer sure, just checking that 7 pointed stars are the only stars that represent something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Ran said: He hadn't come up with the Five Forts then, either... Remember, this is all pre-AFfC stuff. We went through a number of houses, and he was distributing different kinds of stars to different ones. He'd already used the mullet a couple of times in changes right before that, so obviously felt it was a bit boring to do it yet again. That's an amusing insight. How could anyone be bored? As if there aren't enough puzzles, mysteries or complexities to think about; the number of points on a star doesn't really register as something that could be boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Fer sure, just checking that 7 pointed stars are the only stars that represent something. Yes, it represent the light of the seven or light refracted through a crystal into the color spectrum. When the sun hits the crystals used by the Faith they are alive with light. We have the same description for the Dawn Sword. Ned gives the description of the sword pale as milkglass and alive with light. Whether the sigil has 5 star or 7 isn't really the point. They both represent stars. The dawn sword is made from the heart of a fallen star. If it is represented by the sword of the morning constellation; then the fallen star is a diamond. One that is placed in the hilt or pommel of the sword. Something that gets it expression or imitation in the swords of the Warrior's sons. It's not a coincidence that their devices include a shining sword on a dark background or that a warrior will rise to smite the wicked. A similar theme carried over by the Melisandre and her Warrior or Light, Azor Ahai and the vows of the Night's Watch. There must be a common origin for this story that has diverged and separated over time into various religions and brotherhoods. At one time they had common cause. I think that is what we are told in Cersei's description of the ancient order which included sorcerers, demon hunters and dragonslayers numbering among warriors and holy men. The reason why Melisandre tells Jon that the Wall is as much her place as it is his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 I mean that for him it'd be visually boring if all but a handful of houses had 5-pointed stars. He varied it in various ways. See House Templeton for an example, where he decided to keep one 7-pointed star but changed the rest to 6-pointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 17 minutes ago, LynnS said: Whether the sigil has 5 star or 7 isn't really the point. They both represent stars. I have to disagree. Each star has an unique significance both in real life and in the books. The seven pointed star is to the Faith as the cross is to the Catholics of our world. The difference between a 7 pointed or 8 pointed star on family heraldry in the asoiaf world is similar to the difference in real life of having a Christian cross or an cross with the two arms of the same size, for exemple. Or the difference between an + and a x. It's just not the same. It's different symbols with different meanings. 17 minutes ago, LynnS said: At one time they had common cause. I think that is what we are told in Cersei's description of the ancient order which included sorcerers, demon hunters and dragonslayers n I don't think we can trust Cersei on this one. I mean, "demon hunters" and "dragon slayers" makes a lot of sense. Sorcerers might have been how they were looked upon by commom people - what is the difference between a sorcerer and a priest? Anyhow, I think it sounds a lot more like folktales than the real deal, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 27 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said: Anyhow, I think it sounds a lot more like folktales than the real deal, you know? Nobody believes in snarks or grumkins either. Whatever meaning any group applies to their particular sect of Christianity; they all had a common origin and they have themes in common. When we are talking about an ancient order; we're talking about something in the very distant past that no longer exists in it's original form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: In here i talk a little bit about the idea, though my main question i guess, is there factions possibly connected to this. Say, like House Dayne with their 8 pointed star? I can't help but feel like there are 3 main factions, those of ice, those of fire, and those seeking balance. You have a tremendous enthusiasm and excitement for the material Sandman, which is how it should be with any great book. I understand the drive to get the whole picture but it's not really my approach. These days, I content myself with finding and fitting together the small pieces, the meaning of the prophecies and puzzles, Old Nan's tales and how they are manifesting themselves in the current story. I think the dawn sword is central to a number of legends and prophecies from the Faith of the Seven, the Night's Watch and the followers of Red Rahloo. Forces are beginning to converge with Melisandre and the Wildlings attempting to make common cause with the Night's Watch although they all seem at cross purposes and Melisandres version of the Warrior of Light might be something completely different than the Faith's version of the Warrior of Justice. Are we talking about a red sword, a burning sword or a sword alive with light? Are they even one in the same or different things altogether? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 7 hours ago, LynnS said: Yes, it represent the light of the seven or light refracted through a crystal into the color spectrum. When the sun hits the crystals used by the Faith they are alive with light. We have the same description for the Dawn Sword. Ned gives the description of the sword pale as milkglass and alive with light. Whether the sigil has 5 star or 7 isn't really the point. They both represent stars. The dawn sword is made from the heart of a fallen star. If it is represented by the sword of the morning constellation; then the fallen star is a diamond. One that is placed in the hilt or pommel of the sword. Something that gets it expression or imitation in the swords of the Warrior's sons. It's not a coincidence that their devices include a shining sword on a dark background or that a warrior will rise to smite the wicked. A similar theme carried over by the Melisandre and her Warrior or Light, Azor Ahai and the vows of the Night's Watch. There must be a common origin for this story that has diverged and separated over time into various religions and brotherhoods. At one time they had common cause. I think that is what we are told in Cersei's description of the ancient order which included sorcerers, demon hunters and dragonslayers numbering among warriors and holy men. The reason why Melisandre tells Jon that the Wall is as much her place as it is his. Oh no, i get the reference to the fallen star used to forge Lightbringer. That was my point in mentioning Lady Forlorn with it's heart pummel. Representing Nissa Nissa's heart that was pierced. I get and like what your saying about a schism in belief surrounding the sword and symbolism. I just can't decide for my self if i believe Dawn is Lightbringer, or Ice. Im not sure their was one sword used back then or if both sides had a magic sword of sorts. Which would work into why people who sound like they have a connection to the Others, also bear symbolism for a magic crystal sword. The weirwoods glow milk white (the black gate) , yet the black barked trees drink the light. So the parallels tend to circle me back to each side having opposing tools of sorts. In the family tree i've constructed based on given information surrounding gem stone emperors and said descents of Garth the Green. Backed by what i see as a clue of Serwyn always linked next to Aemon the Dragon Knight in the text. Both being Knights in the Kings Guard and brothers to the King who fought over their sister. (all but the brother part is said of serwyn in the text.). So there is a family of generations, pairs of 2 brothers and a sister, and a split with cousins (based off the crow and the raven). These are the two sides of Ice and Fire i believe. Though if Brandon of the Bloody Blade activated his fathers curse, and his son was Brandon the Builder, the Night's King. Then it stands to reason that Ice, was the crystal sword that the Warrior Sons speak of. While a flaming sword would belong to the fire side of their family. The cousin branch. Possibly found in the Arryns-Targaryens. Which is why i bring up Lady Forlorn. Unless im wrong and their was only one magic sword back then. If that's the case though, was it fire, or ice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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