Did Robb act better than Tywin conducting the war?

[Jon Fossoway]

6 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

Tywin gave explicit orders to the Mountain, charging him with the task of pillaging, raping, and burning down the villages of the commoners.

 

With objectives which are valid in war.

Namely, prevent the riverlords joining Robb or, at least, make them provide as few soldiers to Robb as possible since they had to deffend their own land too. At one point Blackwood, Frey, Tully and some others had to return to their seats to reclaim them. 

If I were Robb I would have listened more to Roose, which was more prone to destroy stuff. He is so good at it he launches a decoy attack and manages to retreat in order and later sends Tallhart on a berserk raid to Duskendale. I believe the wording used is "burning their way to Duskendale". I can only imagine Gregor level-like violence happening there.

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

With objectives which are valid in war.

Namely, prevent the riverlords joining Robb or, at least, make them provide as few soldiers to Robb as possible since they had to deffend their own land too. At one point Blackwood, Frey, Tully and some others had to return to their seats to reclaim them. 

If I were Robb I would have listened more to Roose, which was more prone to destroy stuff. He is so good at it he launches a decoy attack and manages to retreat in order and later sends Helman and Tallhart on a berserk raid to Duskendale. I believe the wording used is "burning their way to Duskendale". I can only imagine Gregor level-like violence happening there.

Once again, that's Roose, not Robb. Roose who betrayed Robb and the north, and is possibly the coldest character in the books. Roose. 

[Jon Fossoway]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Once again, that's Roose, not Robb. Roose who betrayed Robb and the north, and is possibly the coldest character in the books. Roose. 

Read up again. Said if I was Robb I would have listened more to Roose, who was capable of sending people to their deaths to prove a point. I don't think my english is that retarded that I didn't write it right.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Read up again. Said if I was Robb I would have listened more to Roose, who was capable of sending people to their deaths to prove a point. I don't think my english is that retarded that I didn't write it right.

Not retarded at all, my apologies!

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Tywin hires the Brave Companions.

Roose persuades them to switch side.

Shame on Robb.  

Roose hires the BC to do what they do best in service to the North's cause.

Robb does nothing. Shame on Robb 

[Adam Yozza]

9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Roose hires the BC to do what they do best in service to the North's cause.

Robb does nothing. Shame on Robb 

News travels slow. By the time Robb heard about it, Tywin might have already sent Gregor to kill them. Remember, he didn't hear about Duskendale until halfway through ASOS and Roose gave that order in Clash.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Cat started the war by imprissoning a man for a crime he didn’t commit.

First the war starting with or without Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion at the moment it was the most logical course of action she could take given the fact she knows Tyrion would tell his family (who are scheming to do something really bad), to move it up and try to take out Ned and the girls; this buys the north more time as well provide them a hostage to ransom if/when things go sour.

  She blamed a boy for being born a bastard. She hated what Jon represented: Ned thinking a bastard being as good as her trueborn children. If he had been given to a bannerman to raise away from winterfell she wouldn't have minded if Ned made sure he was well cared forCommitted treason by releasing a POW, resulting in open revolt. To save her daughters And the list goes on... and then she comes back from the dead to blame everyone but herself!

Now I’m not trying to defend every action by Tywin either, but as far as wars go, ethics are a hard question. And it’s not totally unreasonable to see the ruthless guy who wins quickly as more ethical than the gallant noble fool.

We never get Rob or Tywin’s PoV, so I think it’s fair to debate their motives... if you think intent is even a critical part of morality or ethics.

That is actually a fair point. I was willing to excuse the Karstark incident and Frey betrayl because I think deep down Robb was following code but as a leader  he's putting his followers and subjects in a much more perilous position to preserve the image his personal honor.  That can be called unethical behavior for a military commander. 

 

[Bernie Mac]

41 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

News travels slow.

Not that slow. There were ravens between Robb and Harrenhal. 

Not that it really matters, Northmen were raping and pillaging their own allies in the Riverlands and Robb went West specifically to pay the Westerlands back in kind to what Tywin did to the Riverlands. 

Obviously Tywin would be worse, he has 40 years on Robb and, as much as a generalisation as this is, the older a person gets the less idealistic and more pragmatic they become. But there was little difference between the atrocities caused by the Westerland and Northern soldiers; this is made abundantly clear in the novels were the smallfolk are sick of both lions and wolves. 

 

[Blackwater Revenant]

4 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

With objectives which are valid in war.

Sure, his objectives are valid, but the means by which he accomplishes these objectives are certainly not ethical.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Sure, his objectives are valid, but the means by which he accomplishes these objectives are certainly not ethical.

Of course not. War in general, especially in the medieval period rarely was. Does this really need pointing out?

[Blackwater Revenant]

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

Quote

 

Why . . . there were other castles . . . gold, cattle . . ."

"You think we stayed for plunder?" Robb was incredulous. "Uncle, I wanted Lord Tywin to come west."

 

 

Rob tries to draw out Tywin just like Tywin tries to draw out Ned but on a larger scale.

I'm not sure if you are referring to Robb's anger at Edmure rescuing the small folk from Tywin's men terrorizing them, or his decision to stay in the West in order to draw Tywin out, but either way I don't see how this quote supports your doubts.

Tywin orders his men to rape and pillage in order to draw Ned out.

Robb does nothing of the sort in order to draw Tywin into his trap. All he does is stay in the West, hoping it brought Tywin to him. In the quote you've provided, he even expressed his shock that Edmure assumes that they were there in order to plunder.

As for his distain towards Edmure's decision to come to the aid of the small folk, I don't see how Robb can be held accountable for Tywin's men terrorizing the small folk, just because stopping them from doing so conflicts with his military strategies. I mean, these aren't even Robb's men pillaging in this situation, these are Tywin's men commiting these offences, on Tywin's orders.

I'd say that's a point against Tywin, not Robb.

[Blackwater Revenant]

29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course not. War in general, especially in the medieval period rarely was. Does this really need pointing out?

Did it need pointing out to me that his objectives were valid?

Maybe you should refrain from addressing me, if it's only to be an antagonistic troll. I've already made it clear that I'm not interested in discussing anything with you henceforth.

[Bernie Mac]

29 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Did it need pointing out to me that his objectives were valid?

I don't know, did it? You felt the need to add a qualifier to those objectives which is strange. Generally rthics tend to be abandoned in medieval wars 

29 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Maybe you should refrain from addressing me, if it's only to be an antagonistic troll. I've already made it clear that I'm not interested in discussing anything with you henceforth.

Then don't. I am happy for you to ignore my replies, but if you say something that I feel deserves a response then I will respond to to it. I'm sorry that you can't process different opinions without resorting to calling them trolls. Just how many people have you accused of trolling on this forum?

 

38 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

Tywin orders his men to rape and pillage in order to draw Ned out.

He likely does though we don't witness that order. 

38 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Robb does nothing of the sort in order to draw Tywin into his trap.

Yeah, he likely does. We know that Robb was too weak to threaten Lannisport pr Casterly Rock so he went to inflict the same damage on the Westerlands as the Lannisters done on the Riverlands. 

Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands.

But even with that quote we already knew that the Northmen were raping and pillaging from their allies in the Riverlands, it seems bizarre to assume that they would treat their enemies better than their allies. 

38 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

All he does is stay in the West, hoping it brought Tywin to him.

Why would Tywin need to come West if Robb was not doing anything?

38 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

In the quote you've provided, he even expressed his shock that Edmure assumes that they were there in order to plunder.

Edmure's assumption was that all they stayed there was to plunder, when in fact it was to plunder to get Tywin's attention so he had to respond. It is the same tactics Twyin uses. 

38 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

As for his distain towards Edmure's decision to come to the aid of the small folk, I don't see how Robb can be held accountable for Tywin's men terrorizing the small folk,

Robb accepted the Crown of the Riverlands. Rather than listen to Edmure and the other Riverords pleas to rid the Riverlands of the Royal army he instead goes West ignoring the plight of his vassals. 

Surely a King has some kind of duty to the people he considers his subjects, no?

38 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

just because stopping them from doing so conflicts with his military strategies. I mean, these aren't even Robb's men pillaging in this situation, these are Tywin's men commiting these offences, on Tywin's orders.

Both Lions and Wolves were pillaging in the Riverlands. How do you think the Northern army fed itself? Pack lunches? 

38 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I'd say that's a point against Tywin, not Robb.

 

It is a point against both of them. 

[Back door hodor]

Not according to several of Robbs bannermen, the same men who named him king, let's not forget Tywin could not have pulled off the red wedding and it's aftermath without the help of the Freys and Boltons, he lost the karstarks along the way as well....The only one of Tywins bannermen to betray him were the westerlings.

So according to thier own subjects, I'd say that Tywin conducted the war in a manner better suited to a feudal overlord and general than did Robb Stark. 

Not more moral or honorable, but better

[Blackwater Revenant]

@LiveFirstDieLater

In light of this quote:

Quote

Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands.

provided by @Bernie Mac, I must concede that your doubts are warranted.

Also, to add the rest of that passage:

Quote

Lords Karstark and Glover were raiding along the coast, Lady Mormont had captured thousands of cattle and was driving them back toward Riverrun, while the Greatjon had seized the gold mines at Castamere, Nunn's Deep, and the Pendric Hills. Ser Wendel laughed. "Nothing's more like to bring a Lannister running than a threat to his gold."

 

[Adam Yozza]

@Blackwater Revenant And yet those quote's aren't the same as ordering your men to burn and rape every village between the God's Eye and the Red Fork just for the sake of causing destruction. Robb attacking gold mines and castles and herding livestock is vastly different to what Tywin orders Gregor to do.

[Blackwater Revenant]

12 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

@Blackwater Revenant And yet those quote's aren't the same as ordering your men to burn and rape every village between the God's Eye and the Red Fork just for the sake of causing destruction. Robb attacking gold mines and castles and herding livestock is vastly different to what Tywin orders Gregor to do.

Oh, agree completely. I certainly don't believe that Robb had ordered any of his men to rape anyone, or raze the country side and burn down villages. I think there is an important distinction to be made between an army pillaging in order to replenish supplies and draw your opponent out, as opposed to an army causing excessive and deliberate destruction and terror in order to achieve the same objectives.

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

@Blackwater Revenant And yet those quote's aren't the same as ordering your men to burn and rape every village between the God's Eye and the Red Fork just for the sake of causing destruction. Robb attacking gold mines and castles and herding livestock is vastly different to what Tywin orders Gregor to do.

We are told that Robb went West to pay the Lannisters back in kind. It is the same, not sure why this is so shocking considering Norhern soldiers were raping and pillaging in the Riverlands. 

[Trigger Warning]

I really don't see any reason why we should assume that Robb's soldiers would act in any way better than basically any other group of soldiers in history have when unleashed against a civilian populace. 

"the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they‟d inflicted on the riverlands. Lords Karstark and Glover were raiding along the coast, Lady Mormont had captured thousands of cattle and was driving them back toward Riverrun"

They're raiding and stealing livestock, it pretty much goes without saying that they're also burning, raping and murdering, it would be weird and entirely out of the norm if they weren't. Tywin just takes it further by centring his campaign around chevouchee. 

Robb's men would probably be up in arms against Robb himself if he refused them plunder whilst attacking the infrastructure of the West.

[Blackwater Revenant]

42 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

I really don't see any reason why we should assume that Robb's soldiers would act in any way better than basically any other group of soldiers in history have when unleashed against a civilian populace. 

I don't think there is any reason to believe that Robb's men would behave any better than Tywin's either. There's no doubt that these vile acts are being committed by both Lion and Wolf.

The question brought up by the OP however, was regarding the leaders of these men, and whether Robb acted better than Tywin.

Like I've stated, I don't believe this is even a debatable issue. IMHO, anyone claiming that Robb acted as unethically as Tywin, lacks even a rudimentary understanding of the characters and the story as written by GRRM, or is simply trolling.