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Varysblackfyre321

Did Robb act better than Tywin conducting the war?

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59 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But they do, frequently...

Please cite one instance other than the Reyne-tarbeck uprising. I'm sure you'll come back with people declaring independence.

59 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

That is ridiculous... you can say it’s not a just war, or that’s it’s a civil war... but it’s still a war.

No it's just raiding on the riverlands. Illegal raiding. Skirmishes and slaughter =/= war. This was extremely one-sided

59 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Again you can debate the justice or righteousness of it... but war is war, and it doesn’t take some special dispensation. Just two sides willing to fight. 

And only one side was fighting. The Riverlords went to the king to get dispensation to defend their land and have him enforce the king's peace. It's almost as if we get a first person POV about why this is a good thing and who has to declare things lawful or not.

59 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Again you can say it’s unjust, but to claim wars require some special authority is ignoring reality. 

It's unjust and it's not war. I don't have to "ignore" reality. The canon is right there in front of you.

59 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, if abducting Tyrion is cassus beli then raiding the riverlands isn’t unprovoked, by definition. It might be disproportionate, or dishonorable, but it was provoked.

Even if you skip over all the proper procedures that Tywin should have gone through, like the Riverlords did, you still have multiple houses AND THE CROWN he attacks without provocation or reason.

59 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She had no right nor legitimacy to arrest anyone in Robert’s name... nor does she take him to Winterfell to wait on the king’s justice. These are lies used to coerce soldiers into using force against a man innocent of the crime he’s being accused of.

She took him to the Vale instead of Winterfell and he got a trial. It's not a good trial but that's hardly something that Catelyn could have foreseen. The only person who told her anything about Lysa was her prisoner. I am not condoning what Catelyn did. It was incredibly stupid and shortsighted. She herself realizes she's talking without thinking: 

“ Catelyn glanced around the room, at the faces of the knights and sworn swords, and took a deep breath to slow the frantic beating of her heart. Did she dare take the risk? There was no time to think it through, only the moment and the sound of her own voice ringing in her ears.”

Once again you can prevaricate all you want, but these three things are canonical:

1) Catelyn arrested Tyrion under pretense of upholding the King's peace

2) Tywin sent soldiers into the RL in disguise without contacting either Hoster or Edmure or Robert to see what was up. Edmure even sent riders to Tywin asking him his intentions

3) Robert considers it kidnapping, not an act of war

4) Tywin had Gregor attack the future BWB under the king's peace banner

5) Tywin and Gregor attacked houses that had nothing to do with the kidnapping

So as to whether or not Catelyn had any right to arrest Tyrion, clearly no one thinks its a cause for war except Tywin Lannister, which Tyrion confirms. He started the war and definitely acted less ethically in conducting it. Mind you it's not necessarily the incorrect thing to do -- realpolitik is a thing afterall -- but in terms of this thread Tywin rightfully gets the blame and the brunt of the criticism for the W05K. 

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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ok  Lyanna won't answer(I can't really say I'm surprised nor blame her all that much), but still if anyone can point to anything that support what she said regarding the Northmen being tasked to steal cattle to feed the river landers,please provide it. If there is I will need to give credit to Robb for his humanitarian effort.  

If someone looks it (as I will try), and find nothing, I hope you don't put skeptism on the claim. 

I genuily puzzling the depths people are going to try to absolve Robb of any of the ill things the North's army had done in the war or sanitize the north in general.

He went on to tell how the remnants of Ser Stafford's host had fallen back on Lannisport. Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands. Lords Karstark and Glover were raiding along the coast, Lady Mormont had captured thousands of cattle and was driving them back toward Riverrun, while the Greatjon had seized the gold mines at Castamere, Nunn's Deep, and the Pendric Hills. Ser Wendel laughed. "Nothing's more like to bring a Lannister running than a threat to his gold."

Yes Tywin has ordered some to light the RL afire from the Red Fork to God's Eye, but they are also foraging both from HH and wherever he was camped. He says that himself. Edmure draws the smallfolk to RR and that's where the cattle are going.

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Yes Tywin has ordered some to light the RL afire from the Red Fork to God's Eye, but they are also foraging both from HH and wherever he was camped. He says that himself. Edmure draws the smallfolk to RR and that's where the cattle are going.

And, thus a claim substantiated. I initially read it as the cattle being for Robb's army. I'm glad you pointed this out. Still sucks for the smallfolk in the westerlands but Robb's responsibility is to his followers. Looking at such a blunder on my part it seems I acted a tad hypocritical for my obvious irritation at Lyanna for missing the very quote I cited. That is shameful.  Still find most of her arguments in to be woefully insulting to Robb's intelligence but she did rightfully point out Robb had done this with the intention of sending the cattle to the Riverlands.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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26 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

She took him to the Vale instead of Winterfell and he got a trial. It's not a good trial but that's hardly something that Catelyn could have foreseen. The only person who told her anything about Lysa was her prisoner. I am not condoning what Catelyn did. It was incredibly stupid and shortsighted. She herself realizes she's talking without thinking: 

Honestly, still seemed to be the best course Catelyn could have taken given her information. Tyrion may prove a valueble hostage, give key insight to Bran's murder and gives them more time to prepare for war(which Ned has made apparent is likely going to happen.

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37 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Please cite one instance other than the Reyne-tarbeck uprising. I'm sure you'll come back with people declaring independence.

Brackens and Blackwoods.

The Blackwoods will never stomach the Brute of Bracken as a neighbor. It will mean war.

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No it's just raiding on the riverlands. Illegal raiding. Skirmishes and slaughter =/= war. This was extremely one-sided

Except it didn’t just stop there... are you saying the War of Five Kings wasn’t a war?

War’s escalate, first it’s an abduction, then some pillaging, maybe a beheading, and soon enough sieges and full on battles.

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And only one side was fighting. The Riverlords went to the king to get dispensation to defend their land and have him enforce the king's peace.

No, they go seeking vengeance.

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It's almost as if we get a first person POV about why this is a good thing and who has to declare things lawful or not.

You can debate lawful and just, but it doesn’t take a king to declare a war.

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It's unjust and it's not war. I don't have to "ignore" reality. The canon is right there in front of you.

Just not the case.

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Even if you skip over all the proper procedures that Tywin should have gone through, like the Riverlords did, you still have multiple houses AND THE CROWN he attacks without provocation or reason.

His son being abducted is textbook provocation.

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She took him to the Vale instead of Winterfell and he got a trial. It's not a good trial but that's hardly something that Catelyn could have foreseen. The only person who told her anything about Lysa was her prisoner. I am not condoning what Catelyn did. It was incredibly stupid and shortsighted. She herself realizes she's talking without thinking: 

“ Catelyn glanced around the room, at the faces of the knights and sworn swords, and took a deep breath to slow the frantic beating of her heart. Did she dare take the risk? There was no time to think it through, only the moment and the sound of her own voice ringing in her ears.”

Well we agree it was stupid... she starts a war her family was unprepared for by abducting a man she had no right to abduct and accuses him of things he didn’t do.

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Once again you can prevaricate all you want, but these three things are canonical:

1) Catelyn arrested Tyrion under pretense of upholding the King's peace

Pretense... knowing full well she did not... which is abduction.

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2) Tywin sent soldiers into the RL in disguise without contacting either Hoster or Edmure or Robert to see what was up. Edmure even sent riders to Tywin asking him his intentions

It might be honorable to announce yourself before attacking someone, but it’s stupid.

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3) Robert considers it kidnapping, not an act of war

Not so sure, he is furious because he wants the King’s Peace maintained... seems like he understood the repercussions here. He’s trying to end the fighting.

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4) Tywin had Gregor attack the future BWB under the king's peace banner

Yes...

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5) Tywin and Gregor attacked houses that had nothing to do with the kidnapping

They attack Lord Tully’s bannerman, Tyrion was abducted in Lord Tully’s name.

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So as to whether or not Catelyn had any right to arrest Tyrion, clearly no one thinks its a cause for war except Tywin Lannister, which Tyrion confirms.

Do you have a quote? I don’t know to what you are referring... Varys clearly saw what was coming, as, I believe, did many others.

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He started the war and definitely acted less ethically in conducting it. Mind you it's not necessarily the incorrect thing to do -- realpolitik is a thing afterall -- but in terms of this thread Tywin rightfully gets the blame and the brunt of the criticism for the W05K. 

He won though, so in that sense he fought the war better...

honestly I don’t even care any more this has been a preposterous debate.

Tywin is a twisted fuck, no doubt. But Cat started the war

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Tyrion didn’t plot to murder her son.

And another thing, Tyrion knows that his family is responsible for the attempt on Bran's life. If he didn't want to be falsely accused of a crime he didn't commit, he should have come clean.

21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

honestly I don’t even care any more this has been a preposterous debate.

This type of an attitude pretty much says it all. I will refrain from stating my thoughts on this comment, but I'm sure if you think about it, you can figure out how this makes you sound.

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35 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

And another thing, Tyrion knows that his family is responsible for the attempt on Bran's life. If he didn't want to be falsely accused of a crime he didn't commit, he should have come clean.

Are you serious? Wow, just wow... besides loyalty and family and that it wouldn’t help him, just wow...

Cat’s MO the whole series is blaming people for shit that isn’t their fault... Jon for his parentage, the Lannisters for Jon Arryn’s death, Tyrion for Bran’s assassin, the Frey fool for the Red Wedding, and basically everyone once she’s brought back from the dead.

Does she lack good information? Yes. Has she been lied to? Yes. Does she have excuses? Of course. But this doesn’t change the facts.

She absolutely got played by Littlefinger, but she also absolutely started the war.

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This type of an attitude pretty much says it all. I will refrain from stating my thoughts on this comment, but I'm sure if you think about it, you can figure out how this makes you sound.

That’s ok, I tried explaining nicely, I supplied definitions, examples from classical literature, and quotes from the text.

Disagreement is one thing, but to try and talk to people who deny history and simple definitions, without supplying any evidence, and who need to be corrected so frequently on everything from the fact that wars can be fought without a king’s permission, to denying Helen of Troy was an example of abduction starting a war, to the fact that Lord Tully’s bannermen were involved in abducting Tyrion, frankly gets boring.

I’d rather seek an intelligent discussion.

This debate isn’t going anywhere, and we never got past simple facts and on to what should be the more important question of the value of honor and justice vs the value of practical real world results. As in is it better to live or die honorably?

Which I think is an interesting philosophical question, one could ponder using the text as a framework for discussion. Despite Robb’s attempts at being honorable and just, he lost and his kingdom and people suffer for it.

But trying to explain what appears painfully obvious to me has lost its charm.

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Are you serious? Wow, just wow... besides loyalty and family and that it wouldn’t help him, just wow...

Lol, you can get exasperated and shocked all you want, but you are completely missing the point. I don't blame Tyrion for covering for his family and all. The point is that he is not this poor innocent victim you make him out to be. 

He is guilty of obstructing the King's justice from being upheld, and complacent with letting the guilty parties of this crime walk free.

I'm sorry if I don't feel so bad for a guy when he is wrongfully accused of a crime that he is willingly covering up.

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That’s ok, I tried explaining nicely, I supplied definitions, examples from classical literature, and quotes from the text.

Yeah sure, you supplied definitions that discredited your argument, examples that were a fallacy, and quotes that did more to prove the opposing view than your own.

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Disagreement is one thing, but to try and talk to people who deny history and simple definitions, without supplying any evidence, and who need to be corrected so frequently on everything from the fact that wars can be fought without a king’s permission, to denying Helen of Troy was an example of abduction starting a war, to the fact that Lord Tully’s bannermen were involved in abducting Tyrion, frankly gets boring.

That's funny, perhaps you are in need to generalize everyone here into one group as there are so many that disagree with you, however, I haven't made an argument in favor of one of those examples you've given.

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This debate isn’t going anywhere, and we never got past simple facts and on to what should be the more important question of the value of honor and justice vs the value of practical real world results. As in is it better to live or die honorably?

Perhaps that's because that is not the discussion we are having here. Maybe you should try to pay attention, or go start a thread that addresses the topic of discussion you would like to engage in.

But no, instead you join a discussion and make responses that are irrelevant to the question asked in the OP and find it necessary to insert into every one of your posts, your hate induced and biased take on a situation that clearly isn't what you make it out to be.

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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20 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

“And is Lady Whent a true and honest friend to my father, Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun?”

“ “My father counts Jonos Bracken among his oldest and most loyal bannermen.”

“I was still Catelyn Tully the last time I bedded here,”

“In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king’s justice.”

Then I would suggest reading the exchange.

ah I remember that now. Still none of those men were doing what their lords said. I think even her brother would have said no don't follow her orders. and She may have "been" catelyn tully the last time she was there but now she is a stark. Still it makes a little more sense.

I still don't understand why he didn't do anything to the vale. I mean kats sister was essentially going to sentence tyrion to death with no real trial or lock him in the sky cells until he loses his mind. where as Kat was talking about a trial. Her biggest mistake was kidnapping him. I think that if he was put on trial fairly then tywin might "emphasis on might" have been happy since he could finally get tyrion either sent to the wall or killed. Either way he would be out of the way.

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20 hours ago, snow is the man said:

As for assasinating ned stark I thought he meant to take him hostage not kill him.

Yes, you are partially right here. The text isn't specific, it states that Tywin's plan was to draw Ned out and either have him killed or held for ransom in order to get Tyrion back.

A Storm of Swords - Arya III

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Only six Winterfell men remained of the twenty her father had sent west with Beric Dondarrion, Harwin told her, and they were scattered. "It was a trap, milady. Lord Tywin sent his Mountain across the Red Fork with fire and sword, hoping to draw your lord father. He planned for Lord Eddard to come west himself to deal with Gregor Clegane. If he had he would have been killed, or taken prisoner and traded for the Imp, who was your lady mother's captive at the time. Only the Kingslayer never knew Lord Tywin's plan, and when he heard about his brother's capture he attacked your father in the streets of King's Landing."

 

Edited by Blackwater Revenant
Added quote.

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On 1/11/2018 at 1:57 PM, Nowy Tends said:

In which world? Under which law? Where does the text etablish this point? Is there a caselaw? Sending 2 groups of war criminals to kill random people was Tywin's ONLY option?

Tywin power is purely made through fear. He doesn't just beat people he annihalates them. Once that fear is gone he just has alot of people who hate him and are no longer scared of him.

That said He was way out of line with what he did no lord in the riverlands ordered his son taken. I can bet that if any lord in the riverlands had a say in tyrions kidnapping they would have screamed "NO!". Even kats brother would have told her to go to the king for justice but not kidnapp tyrion. I think tywin could have used the situation to gain a big advantage if he had gone to the king. He would have likely extended lannister lands or gotten a major compensation for it. And if tyrion wasn't returned ASAP or was killed he would have gone to war and the king would have had to back him or face rebellion. So in reality tywin acted impulsively which seems way out of character for him.

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3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Brackens and Blackwoods.

The Blackwoods will never stomach the Brute of Bracken as a neighbor. It will mean war.

And you'll note that never happened!

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Except it didn’t just stop there... are you saying the War of Five Kings wasn’t a war?

No it became a war when armies were mobilized and war/independence was formally declared.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

War’s escalate, first it’s an abduction, then some pillaging, maybe a beheading, and soon enough sieges and full on battles.

No, they go seeking vengeance.

Well that is wrong:

“If your fields and holdfasts are safe from harm,” Lord Petyr was saying, “what then do you ask of the throne?”
“The lords of the Trident keep the king’s peace,” Ser Raymun Darry said. “The Lannisters have broken it. We ask leave to answer them, steel for steel. We ask justice for the smallfolk of Sherrer and Wendish Town and the Mummer’s Ford.”
“Edmure agrees, we must pay Gregor Clegane back his bloody coin,” Ser Marq declared, “but old Lord Hoster commanded us to come here and beg the king’s leave before we strike.”

“crimes are no concern of the throne. Let them seek Lord Tywin’s justice.”
“It is all the king’s justice,” Ned told him. “North, south, east, or west, all we do we do in Robert’s name.”

Man this is getting old.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You can debate lawful and just, but it doesn’t take a king to declare a war.

Then why didn't Tywin openly fight the RL? Oh did he perhaps want to goad them into breaking the King's Peace? Oh wait, that's exactly what he was trying to do.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Just not the case.

It's literally in the text. It's not a war. You cannot rewrite canon, thank god.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

His son being abducted is textbook provocation.

Yet it's completely unprecedented in Westeros except between warring kingdoms pre IT and Robert treats it like a minor issue that should never have happened.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Well we agree it was stupid... she starts a war her family was unprepared for by abducting a man she had no right to abduct and accuses him of things he didn’t do.

Pretense... knowing full well she did not... which is abduction.

I'm not even disputing the abduction part, but I am glad you're coming around to that

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It might be honorable to announce yourself before attacking someone, but it’s stupid.

It's illegal. He's breaking the king's peace even as Robert is telling Ned and Cersei to stop their shit.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Not so sure, he is furious because he wants the King’s Peace maintained... seems like he understood the repercussions here. He’s trying to end the fighting.

There is no mutual fighting. Jaime slaughters Ned's men and the Mountain is raiding in the RL, though Robert doesn't know it yet.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Yes...

They attack Lord Tully’s bannerman, Tyrion was abducted in Lord Tully’s name.

So Tywin is literally attacking the king and his authority.

No he was abducted in King Robert's name, and three of the men-at-arms were Tully vassals.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Do you have a quote? I don’t know to what you are referring... Varys clearly saw what was coming, as, I believe, did many others.

Then I would think a little bit harder. Come back later.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

He won though, so in that sense he fought the war better...

Not the point of the thread but yes Tywin fought the war better. Glad you can read and agree with what I wrote.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

honestly I don’t even care any more this has been a preposterous debate.

Tywin is a twisted fuck, no doubt. But Cat started the war

It's been a preposterous debate because you've repeatedly reject canon quotes and used sophomoric reason and unsound logic to advance your point. Cat literally did not start the war. Literally or figuratively. If Tywin had bothered to petition Robert/Ned to enforce the king's peace, then you would be right. He did not. 

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7 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

You put up a honorable and valiant effort. I commend you on your patience and civility dealing with this poster.  :thumbsup: 

Thank you. I saw yours as well. It seems sometimes two people cannot communicate well despite the effort. 

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