Jump to content

Did Robb act better than Tywin conducting the war?


Varysblackfyre321

Recommended Posts

49 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Taking a lord’s son prisoner, without the authority to do so, let alone when he is innocent of the charges leveled against him, is an act of war.

In which world? Under which law? Where does the text etablish this point? Is there a caselaw? Sending 2 groups of war criminals to kill random people was Tywin's ONLY option?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

In which world? Under which law? Where does the text etablish this point? Is there a caselaw? Sending 2 groups of war criminals to kill random people was Tywin's ONLY option?

I’m happy to have a reasonable discussion... but this is silly.

In what world is it not?

Quote

And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling. Lord Tywin will take that for an outrage, and Jaime has a queer affection for the Imp. If the Lannisters move north, that will bring the Tullys in as well. Delay, you say. Make haste, I reply.

Or in the kings words:

Quote

"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."

Under the kings law.

Also, waylaying travelers and improsoning them is usually frowned upon by laws.

And once again, I’m not defending Tywin, and I’m not interested in discussing roads not taken... it doesn’t go anywhere.

but Robb uses the improsonment of his relative to rebel, name himself king, march south and wage full on war, including pillaging the Westerlands with the goal of drawing out his enemy by hurting innocents. So yes I think there is a parallel there. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Admittedly, I think she is aweful... but I don’t think that is irrational. 

You are free to hate whoever you choose without it being irrational. What's is irrational is when some of that hate is a result of blaming someone of an act they did not commit.

21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Yes it is... I can’t believe this is even a question!

People can’t just go around trying kidnapping each other for perceived crimes. It would have been an act of war even if she was right, the fact that she did this to an innocent man only compounds the crime.

You don't have to believe it, but I disagree with you. Apprehending one man suspected of a crime, with the intent of giving him a trial is not justification for starting a war that affects thousands of people, in my opinion. I can't believe you think it is.

Would Tywin be justified in going after Cat and demanding that she be held responsible for her I'll advised actions? Sure, but not for starting a war, and terrorizing thousands of innocent people.

21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What does this have to do with anything? If it’s even true...

You are the one that keeps bringing up that she didn't have the authority to apprehend Tyrion, as justification for Tywins response. 

21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I’m not exonerating anyone, please stop putting words in my mouth.

Sure you are. You are exonerating Tywin of starting the war, when clearly he is guilty of such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

You are free to hate whoever you choose without it being irrational. What's is irrational is when some of that hate is a result of blaming someone of an act they did not commit.

Who am I blaming of what that they didn’t do? Cat abducted Tyrion for a crime he didn’t commit and sparked a war her family was unprepared for.

Quote

You don't have to believe it, but I disagree with you. Apprehending one man suspected of a crime, with the intent of giving him a trial is not justification for starting a war that affects thousands of people, in my opinion. I can't believe you think it is.

Everyone else we hear from knows what the result of abducting Tyrion will be... War. It is an act of war...

War is wrong... on that I agree...

But Robb marches off to war over the improsonment of one man too... so again I see a parallel.

Quote

Would Tywin be justified in going after Cat and demanding that she be held responsible for her I'll advised actions? Sure, but not for starting a war, and terrorizing thousands of innocent people.

So should Robb have ridden to King’s Landing and demanded Joff “come out and die”? Lol

Quote

You are the one that keeps bringing up that she didn't have the authority to apprehend Tyrion, as justification for Tywins response. 

Of course she didn’t have any authority, everyone knows this... I’m saying that she started the war.

I’m not justifying anything, not Tywin’s pillaging the Riverlands, not Robb pillaging the Westerlands, not war in general. 

Quote

Sure you are. You are exonerating Tywin of starting the war, when clearly he is guilty of such.

Then I misunderstood, Tywin didn’t start the war, as per the text... Cat did.

But, I’m not exonerating him of any crimes he committed or ordered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Who am I blaming of what that they didn’t do?

Come on, there's no need to play these types of games. You know full well what I'm talking about.

Quote

Everyone else we hear from knows what the result of abducting Tyrion will be... War. It is an act of war...

Yeah, because they know Tywin and his reputation of overreacting disproportionately and to the extremes in response to perceived slights to himself.

Others knowing that Tywin will overreact and start a war over her actions does not equate to Cat's actions being an act of war.

Quote

War is wrong... on that I agree...

But Robb marches off to war over the improsonment of one man too... so again I see a parallel.

Well, that really is irrelevant to the discussion as to who started the war between Cat and Tywin.

I agree there is a parallel there, but I have pointed out where I see the distinction between the two, in my response that you claimed was a quibble.

Quote

So should Robb have ridden to King’s Landing and demanded Joff “come out and die”? Lol

Lol, of course not. That is one of the distinctions between what Tywin did as opposed to what Robb did.

Tywin had the option to settle his grievances with Cat's actions through diplomatic means by going to Robert, Robb did not have that option.

Quote

Of course she didn’t, everyone knows this... I’m saying that she started the war. I’m not justifying anything, not Tywin’s pillaging the Riverlands, not Robb pillaging the Westerlands, not war in general. 

Sure you are. By claiming that Cat committed an act of war against Tywin, that would give him justification to respond in kind. Not to the extremes he takes it, or against the uninvolved parties as he had, of course, but it justifies him taking men to the field to fight a war.

Of course, I don't believe Cat's actions are a justifiable cause to go to war, you seem to think they are. That's what an act of war is after all, an action that justifies going to war in response to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Who am I blaming of what that they didn’t do? Cat abducted Tyrion for a crime he didn’t commit and sparked a war her family was unprepared for.

Let me reword my comment more accurately.

Perhaps some of your hate doesn't stem from actions that Cat didn't commit. But your hatred for her seems to be influencing you to blame her for something she isn't guilty of; namely, starting the war.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On January 7, 2018 at 5:43 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

every side. It is possible he didn't  though. Unlikely maybe but he is barely considered a man, seeing his first war, & commanding  for the first time. It really isn't  that outrageous to think maybe he thought his men good men that wouldn't rape & such. The difference Tywin & Robb is that Robb would never condone it. Tywin is a seasoned Commander, knows exactly what happens sometimes in war & not only doesn't tell his men not to rape but sends the most vile of them, knowing exactly what he is capable of & what he will do, to torture the small folk. Something Robb's honor would not have allowed him to do. 

 

I find it puzzling that I seem to have higher view of Robb's intelligence than you and other defenders of him regarding this topic. 

Like, give the guy some credit, he's shown he's not that naive and quite frankly incompetent to believe he can unleash a horde of illiterate feudal men tasked with raiding and pillaging on a large civilian population will end with everything is going to be hunky dory. And, yes, he's shown he would condone such things being committed if it served his interests such is why he tried to make a pact with the IB, such as using the BC and allowing them to be supervised by Roose Bolton(the man who personally terrifies Robb for his ominous presence). 

On January 7, 2018 at 5:43 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I doubt it. Tywin knows he is an uncontrollable monster. IIRC he even says something to that effect. He doesn't think he has a grip on Gregor he just picks when & where to unleash him. 

In his conversation with Tyrion in regards to the rape and murder of Ellia Martel he gives the impression of thinking  if he had told the mountain to not harm her Gregore wouldn't. Would he be right? Probably not.

Is he lying to Tyrion I think so. 

On January 7, 2018 at 5:43 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know who waged war more honorably but Robb is the more honorable person IMO. I give Robb a lot of slack, maybe too much, because he is naive. This is his first war. What he knows of the IB comes from Theon who until he turned was almost a brother to Robb. He may have believed as the rightful heir to the IB that Theon would direct them to behave with honor.

No his(and likely a lot of Theon's for he was taken at 7) information on the IB would come from his studies under Maestor Luwin and likely tales from Nan, both of which would delve into the type of culture from the people who've been terrorizes the north for centuries. Hell Luwin even taught about the Dothraki. What the IB consider "honorable" is raiding, murdering, raping their enemies women and looting the fallen's corpses. And Robb would know this. Hell Theon is pretty proud of his culture(used to be). Robb forgot Theon wasn't his actual brother but his father's hostage, he was warned against sending him. He deserves at least some blame for what Theon once he returned to Pyke.

 

On January 7, 2018 at 5:43 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He is neglectful at times (like not addressing the fact that Roose hired the BC) but I don't believe it's maliciously or purposefully. He is way over his head & trying to keep all his juggling balls from hitting the ground. The balls directly in his presence get more attention than the ones far away. 

Out of sight out of mind? Like, him not addressing Roose's hiring of the BC with Roose was purposeful; he didn't simply forget about the foreighn barbarians hired on by his enemies who'd be ravaging the people under Robb. He is way over his head. That doesn't elevate any of his responsibilty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Let me reword my comment more accurately.

Perhaps some of your hate doesn't stem from actions that Cat didn't commit.

I actually don’t know what you mean...

Quote

But your hatred for her seems to be influencing you to blame her for something she isn't guilty of; namely, starting the war.

I’m over this, the story is very clear that the abduction of Tyrion is what starts the War... if you accept it or not.

An Act of War:

an aggressive act, usually employing military force, which constitutes an immediate threat to peace

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I actually don’t know what you mean...

I’m over this, the story is very clear that the abduction of Tyrion is what starts the War... if you accept it or not.

No it's not. Cat didn't start the war...whether you accept it or not.

Quote

An Act of War:

an aggressive act, usually employing military force, which constitutes an immediate threat to peace

 

I'm not sure why you would provide a definition that contradicts your argument, but thanks for supporting my case.

Cat was not commanding a military force, and her actions in no way constituted an immediate threat to peace.

Of course, this describes Tywin's actions to a T.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quote

An act of war is an action by one country against another with an intention to provoke a war or an action that occurs during a declared war or armed conflict between military forces of any origin.

Were Cat's actions an act committed against the Westerlands with the intent to provoke a war?

Certainly not!

Were Tywin's actions against the Riverlands an act committed with the intent to provoke a war?

They certainly were!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

No it's not. Cat didn't start the war...whether you accept it or not.

I'm not sure why you would provide a definition that contradicts your argument.

Cat was not commanding a military force, and her actions in no way constituted an immediate threat to peace.

Of course, this describes Tywin's actions to a T.

I don’t know what story you read...

She commands soldiers to arrest Tyrion for crimes he didn’t commit, lacks the authority to do so, and lies about her intentions for a trial... as everyone understands, the direct result of this assault is war. I really am not sure how much more plainly I can explain it, and at this point I think it would just be repetitive.

Quote

 

Tyrion Lannister sniggered. That was when Catelyn knew he was hers. "This man came a guest into my house, and there conspired to murder my son, a boy of seven," she proclaimed to the room at large, pointing. Ser Rodrik moved to her side, his sword in hand. "In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice.
She did not know what was more satisfying: the sound of a dozen swords drawn as one or the look on Tyrion Lannister's face.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

Were Cat's actions an act committed against the Westerlands with the intent to provoke a war?

Certainly not!

Were Tywin's actions against the Riverlands an act committed with the intent to provoke a war?

They certainly were!

Really? Dude, we aren’t talking about the modern definitions of US or International law... for instance nation states don’t exist. I can’t believe I have to explain that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don’t know what story you read...

It's called A Song of Ice and Fire. You should give it a read sometime, I highly recommend it.

Quote

She commands soldiers to arrest Tyrion for crimes he didn’t commit, lacks the authority to do so, and lies about her intentions for a trial...

What lies are these? In the story I read, she gave him a trial, and when he was found innocent, she had him released.

Quote

as everyone understands, the direct result of this assault is war. I really am not sure how much more plainly I can explain it, and at this point I think it would just be repetitive.

 

Who's this everyone? What are you even talking about?

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Really? Dude, we aren’t talking about the modern definitions of US or International law... for instance nation states don’t exist. I can’t believe I have to explain that.

No, you seem to want to talk about some definition you are making up in order to support your little witch hunt here.

Do tell me, where did you get the definition that you provided from? You know, the one that discredited your argument. Was that a quote from the novels?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Really? Dude, we aren’t talking about the modern definitions of US or International law... for instance nation states don’t exist. I can’t believe I have to explain that.

I have to agree with @Blackwater Revenant here. I don't see how Cat arresting Tyrion, wrongfully or without authority is an act of war. Unjust? Absolutely. Without authority? Depends on who you ask. An act of war? Not hardly. Outside of repeating that it is an act of war & that you can't believe you have to explain it, what you've said only convinces me further it was not. It doesn't even fit the definition you provided. It is by Tywin's command the first act of war is committed, in response to Cat's actions. 

If you punch someone in the face & they slit your throat for it are you the murderer? Are you the one that caused the murder? No. You may have antagonized the situation, you may even have deserved it but you are not the murderer nor did you cause or commit the murder. 

Furthermore the in text quotes you provided do nothing to suggest to me that the people on Planetos think it's an act of war either. They certainly did not name it such in the quotes you provided.

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

find it puzzling that I seem to have higher view of Robb's intelligence than you and other defenders of him regarding this topic. 

Like, give the guy some credit, he's shown he's not that naive and quite frankly incompetent to believe he can unleash a horde of illiterate feudal men tasked with raiding and pillaging on a large civilian population will end with everything is going to be hunky dory. And, yes, he's shown he would condone such things being committed if it served his interests such is why he tried to make a pact with the IB, such as using the BC and allowing them to be supervised by Roose Bolton(the man who personally terrifies Robb for his ominous presence).

I never questioned Robb's intelligence, I'm only saying it is not out of the question to believe he did not know all the ways of war. He is barely a man by Westerosi standards & still very much a child by our own. 

He has never witnessed or fought in a war let alone commanded one. Why would he be expected to have the knowledge of war that someone like Tywin has? 

What horde of illiterate feudal men has he Unleashed on civilians? I don't recall him ever giving any commands to rape or pillage. The only thing we have that I recall is the passage about paying them back in kind and followed by examples that are nowhere near as harsh as the pillaging and raping that the mountains men do. 

As far as the ironborn correct me if I'm wrong but all we know of what Robb expected of them comes from Theon no? It's likely Theon threw in the part about plunder and pillaging to appease his father. At any rate we really don't know what Robb knew and what he didn't but being aware that something like this is going on and actually commanding it to be done are two different things.

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

conversation with Tyrion in regards to the rape and murder of Ellia Martel he gives the impression of thinking  if he had told the mountain to not harm her Gregore wouldn't. Would he be right? Probably not.

Is he lying to Tyrion I think so. 

Well not exactly what he tells him is that the reason Gregor raped her is likely because he was not told not to. Not quite the same thing as expecting him to obey if he was told not to. At any rate I don't think that quote suggests Tywin believes he has a firm hold on Gregor. 

 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

his(and likely a lot of Theon's for he was taken at 7) information on the IB would come from his studies under Maestor Luwin and likely tales from Nan, both of which would delve into the type of culture from the people who've been terrorizes the north for centuries. Hell Luwin even taught about the Dothraki. What the IB consider "honorable" is raiding, murdering, raping their enemies women and looting the fallen's corpses. And Robb would know this. Hell Theon is pretty proud of his culture(used to be). Robb forgot Theon wasn't his actual brother but his father's hostage, he was warned against sending him. He deserves at least some blame for what Theon once he returned to Pyke.

Regardless of where Robb got his information from I was merely suggesting he might not have expected the IB to behave the way they likely would have. We don't know what he knows & what he doesn't about the IB so my tale is as likely as yours. 

Yes, sending Theon to Pyke was a mistake. One Robb was warned against. That doesn't prove malicious intent though. Quite the contrary. The mistake was made because he trusted Theon. 

I disagree that he deserves some blame for what Theon did. He did not ask or command him to do it & he took no part in it. Theon deserves the blame for what Theon did & Robb deserves the blame for sending Theon there. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Out of sight out of mind? Like, him not addressing Roose's hiring of the BC with Roose was purposeful; he didn't simply forget about the foreighn barbarians hired on by his enemies who'd be ravaging the people under Robb. He is way over his head. That doesn't elevate any of his responsibilty.

Do we know that Robb knew Roose hired the BC? I don't recall. If he did I count that as a mark on his honor. If he did not he can only be held responsible as far as any Commander is responsible for the actions of each & every man under him. As I said in my first post in the thread: if Robb & Tywin are to be held responsible for the actions of every one of their soldiers it is likely Robb's war was no more just or honorable than Tywin's. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I never questioned Robb's intelligence, I'm only saying it is not out of the question to believe he did not know all the ways of war. He is barely a man by Westerosi standards & still very much a child by our own. 

Yes you have. Like, literaly the guy has shown he's not so much an idiot in regards to what happens in war that the mere thought of a large portion of his men are raping and murdering people when he sends them out on civilian targets. 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He has never witnessed or fought in a war let alone commanded one. Why would he be expected to have the knowledge of war that someone like Tywin has? 

Before this one you obviously mean. Again, this is basic common sense he should have. When he sends Umber out to raid, a man he gained idiolizement through having his wolf literaly take 3 fingers, he's going to expect a lot of blood to be spilt if he has any intelligence, or Karstark who has made apparent he loathes anything associated with lanister.

He is not an idiot. Well at least that much.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What horde of illiterate feudal men has he Unleashed on civilians? I don't recall him ever giving any commands to rape or pillage. The only thing we have that I recall is the passage about paying them back in kind and followed by examples that are nowhere near as harsh as the pillaging and raping that the mountains men do. 

Ok, this has thoroughly been discussed in the thread already. In the westerlands Lady mormont was charged with seizing cattle(which people would need to make their living), Karstark and Glover to raid, and Greatjon would seize the gold mines. Civilian populated targets. Like Bernie Mack has pointed out we don't have pov charachter in the Westerlands just to see how badly the Northmen are acting but we really don't need to-their conduct in the Riverland make abundantly clear the smallfolk were brutalized as much by the wolves, as they were the Lanister's goons; and the river landers were their allies. One needn't expect them to act any better once they're set on to attack their actual enemies.

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Regardless of where Robb got his information from I was merely suggesting he might not have expected the IB to behave the way they likely would have. We don't know what he knows & what he doesn't about the IB so my tale is as likely as yours. 

 

No it simply isn't. The next warden of the North hell just about any noble with a competent Maestor when learning history will cover the IB detail on the IB and their ways. They'd been literaly terrorizing the north for centuries and Robb as the future Warden would be expected to learn as much about how they wage war and their culture as he can. The only way your tale works if Robb is an idiot. He'd completely be buzzed off when Luwin or Nan was teaching  him of the IB. Like, you say you don't think lowly of his intelligence yet remark upon it's likely he'd lack basic knowledge of one of his people's greatest enemies. 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

Yes, sending Theon to Pyke was a mistake. One Robb was warned against. That doesn't prove malicious intent though. Quite the contrary. The mistake was made because he trusted Theon. 

Did I say he had malicious intent? No. I said he bears at least some responsibility for the bad things Theon had done after he was sent to pyke. 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Do we know that Robb knew Roose hired the BC? I don't recall. If he did I count that as a mark on his honor. If he did not he can only be held responsible as far as any Commander is responsible for the actions of each & every man under him.

Again discussed in this thread plenty enough. As Bernie Mack pointed out there'd been established contact through Ravens between Harenthal while under control by the Roose. There is zero reason for Robb not to know how exactly Roose took Harenthal.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You mean sending The Mountain into the Riverlands?

It was Riverlands soldiers who Cat cajouls into helping her abduct Tyrion.

But yes, the people who suffer from war are almost always not the ones responsible...

Alright so we have the following RL factions taking part:

Whent
Bracken
Tully 
Stark
 

Here is a list of who Tywin attacks:
Whent
Bracken
Tully 
Blackwood
Frey
Piper
Vance
Darry
Dondarrion
Mallory
Wylde

Stark too if you count Jaime but I understand if you are wont to do so. But yeah, Tywin *totes* reacting in kind.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/5/2018 at 9:56 PM, Blackwater Revenant said:

I agree with this, just one note I'd like to point out. When Tywin ordered the raiding of the Riverlands, it wasn't a part of war; there was no war at that time. This criminal act, committed for the purpose of assassinating the Hand of the King and to satiate Tywin's ego, is in fact what started the war.

I do agree that this was the wrong thing to do. However what I never understood was why he went after the riverlands in response to tyrion being kidnapped. katelyn is now a stark not a tully and she took tyrion to the vale which tywin left alone. While the riverlands had nothing to do with tyrion being kidnapped they took the hit. Where as the vale where tyrion was taken and almost killed was left alone completly and if I remember right tywin thought to ally with against rob. I know tyrion used it as way to see if little finger was loyal to cersei  but I think tywin tried to or maybe that was in the show. Still it seems weird that he left the vale alone.

 

But to the point. I disagree with how tywin handled it but in truth it was kat who started the events that led to war but tywin just stoked the flames higher by attacking the riverlands like he did. I do understand that tywin needed to show strength because letting tyrion be taken made tywin seem weak. Tywin's power came from fear more then anything else. I mean he isn't a legendary general he just goes to extremes which makes people afraid to attack him. As for assasinating ned stark I thought he meant to take him hostage not kill him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Alright so we have the following RL factions taking part:

Whent
Bracken
Tully 
Stark
 

Here is a list of who Tywin attacks:
Whent
Bracken
Tully 
Blackwood
Frey
Piper
Vance
Darry
Dondarrion
Mallory
Wylde

Stark too if you count Jaime but I understand if you are wont to do so. But yeah, Tywin *totes* reacting in kind.

 

wait do you mean kat was the tully responsible? I never understood this part because she is a stark at this point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

wait do you mean kat was the tully responsible? I never understood this part because she is a stark at this point.

“And is Lady Whent a true and honest friend to my father, Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun?”

“ “My father counts Jonos Bracken among his oldest and most loyal bannermen.”

“I was still Catelyn Tully the last time I bedded here,”

“In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king’s justice.”

Then I would suggest reading the exchange.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...