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Varysblackfyre321

Was Robert doomed to fail from the start?

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Perhaps a little worse off since he would have nothing to point to that would show his life at least at some poor having a meaning? That he did something before he became fat and an alcoholic. Or maybe less so? If he was never great to begin with perhaps he won't feel the sting of his inadequacy 

He was heavily drinking and sleeping around before his engagement to Lyanna. So to say he was doing that because of the void she left him doesn't quite ring true. Sure if there's an enemy to fight, he's a world breaker, but he lacks the attention detail for day to day rule. He's about worldly pleasures, be it the feel of a woman, eating and drinking himself into a stupor or smashing an enemy's skull. Maybe Lord Robert doesn't dial it up as quickly as King Robert, but the core behavior is there. Or maybe he just ends up living out his sellsword dream until it lands him in an early grave.

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24 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

He was heavily drinking and sleeping around before his engagement to Lyanna. So to say he was doing that because of the void she left him doesn't quite ring true.

Oh no I'd be surprised if he spent more 5 minutes talking to her about well her and gave her any sort of mind during the war. I mean he only rebelled when Aerys had called for his head.I'm talking the glory he had acquired while fighting the war, the thrill, the adventure. If he had never experienced that perhaps he wouldn't see himself as so bad currently. Can't miss what you never had.

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28 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

He was heavily drinking and sleeping around before his engagement to Lyanna. So to say he was doing that because of the void she left him doesn't quite ring true. Sure if there's an enemy to fight, he's a world breaker, but he lacks the attention detail for day to day rule. He's about worldly pleasures, be it the feel of a woman, eating and drinking himself into a stupor or smashing an enemy's skull. Maybe Lord Robert doesn't dial it up as quickly as King Robert, but the core behavior is there. Or maybe he just ends up living out his sellsword dream until it lands him in an early grave.

I do wonder how serious he was about that.

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19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh no I'd be surprised if he spent more 5 minutes talking to her about well her and gave her any sort of mind during the war. I mean he only rebelled when Aerys had called for his head.I'm talking the glory he had acquired while fighting the war, the thrill, the adventure. If he had never experienced that perhaps he wouldn't see himself as so bad currently. Can't miss what you never had.

I think Lyanna was in Robert's mind his manifestation of the perfect woman. I think had Rhaegar not been a factor, the real Lyanna would've proven very different from what was in his mind.

18 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I do wonder how serious he was about that.

Well a Lord of Storm's End abandoning his post would be less of a scandal than a king. Heck it might even make Stannis happy had Robert handed over Storm's End to him.... scratch that, no it wouldn't.

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

 Heck it might even make Stannis happy had Robert handed over Storm's End to him.... scratch that, no it wouldn't.

You're doing Stannis a disservice. The reward of Storm's End by Robert would be satisfying to Stannis as it means that his duty is being justly rewarded. What would make him miserable is having to deal with the people around him who'd have preferred Robert, or even Renly, in charge for whatever reason. Stannis is the ablest man of his brothers for authority, but many people tend to really dislike a man such as Stannis. Certainly Stannis would be just, and he's probably the least likely man to be corrupted by power, but that wouldn't make him popular at all. And I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Stannis is also somewhat of a misanthrope, so dealing with people in general would leave him bitter and angry anyway.

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2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

his post would be less of a scandal than a king. Heck it might even make Stannis happy had Robert handed over Storm's End to him.... scratch that, no it wouldn't.

Still if he was truly serious about it why not just leave? He's going to die someday(early given his very hedonistic lifestyle) and Joffery will be king and Robert think there's any fixing the boy so why not simply leave and become a mercenary king?

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

You're doing Stannis a disservice. The reward of Storm's End by Robert would be satisfying to Stannis as it means that his duty is being justly rewarded. What would make him miserable is having to deal with the people around him who'd have preferred Robert, or even Renly, in charge for whatever reason. Stannis is the ablest man of his brothers for authority, but many people tend to really dislike a man such as Stannis. Certainly Stannis would be just, and he's probably the least likely man to be corrupted by power, but that wouldn't make him popular at all. And I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Stannis is also somewhat of a misanthrope, so dealing with people in general would leave him bitter and angry anyway.

I think Stannis is the best of the original five kings. As you say though, that doesn't mean he's capable of being happy. He'd be grinding his teeth all day on the Iron Throne. His problem is he doesn't really understand how people work, and lacks the ability to compromise, so politics is going to always be elusive to his grasp. Which frustrates him and leads to his unhappiness.

 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Still if he was truly serious about it why not just leave? He's going to die someday(early given his very hedonistic lifestyle) and Joffery will be king and Robert think there's any fixing the boy so why not simply leave and become a mercenary king?

I doubt he was, but it would be more likely for Lord Robert than King Robert. Less to walk away from. He didn't personally fight in the Greyjoy Rebellion afterall, staying to the rear.

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On 12/29/2017 at 8:40 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He often blames the crown for him getting so fat and lazy and frustrated with life but would he be better off having just being lord of the storm lands? I mean Robert had all the time in the world to train and keep in shape hell he could have hired the best swordsmen in the world to spar with him but he didn't. It's not like he was busy with something important; he was just drinking and whoring all the time. What exactly would change in his behavior if he wasn't granted the crown? I don't think anything. 

Robert is a fighting man.  He would die on the battlefield.  Instead he died on the throne.  Robert was dead already.  His time clock started ticking the minute Jon Arryn died.  

All this doesn't paint a flattering view of Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions.  He was unhappy with the Targaryens and thought he could do better.  He was plotting to replace them with Robert and Brandon.  We now know that both those boys were not the right sort for ruling.  Rickard has been proven wrong.  The Baratheons failed to even have one smooth succession.  

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1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Robert is a fighting man.  He would die on the battlefield.  Instead he died on the throne.  Robert was dead already.  His time clock started ticking the minute Jon Arryn died.  

All this doesn't paint a flattering view of Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions.  He was unhappy with the Targaryens and thought he could do better.  He was plotting to replace them with Robert and Brandon.  We now know that both those boys were not the right sort for ruling.  Rickard has been proven wrong.  The Baratheons failed to even have one smooth succession.  

Man I must have missed the Rickard's POV chapter

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On 12/29/2017 at 10:45 PM, Beren_One_Hand said:

It’s my opinion that a lot of Robert’s behavior after winning the crown was due to the loss of Lyanna; in part due to her death, as well as the possibility that she ran off with Rhaegar. He made Lyanna out to be the perfect woman and to compensate for losing her he whored and drank and feasted. Yes, he fathered a bastard in the Vale before he was betrothed to her and she had fears he would not keep to her bed alone; but I believe losing her exaggerated these behaviors. He was also stuck in a love-less marriage with Cersei. His whoring may have been lessened if he were married to a woman who loved him and that he had love for as well; that may not have slowed his drinking or feasting though (we see him in a drinking contest at the Tourney at Harrenhal).

I am not one to defend cersei however she only hated him because he was obsessed with lyanna even fantasizing about her on their wedding night. In the books I think she intended to give him a chance at first since she would be queen.

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I think even if robert had married lyanna it would have been bad. He didn't love her  but he loved the idea of her. Thus it was doomed before it started because the fantasy would have been broken anyways.

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2 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I am not one to defend cersei however she only hated him because he was obsessed with lyanna even fantasizing about her on their wedding night. In the books I think she intended to give him a chance at first since she would be queen.

I believe she rationalizes that just after she mentioned she slept with Jaime on the morning of her wedding IIRC

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He didn't fail. He fought a rebellion, won, 'erased' his enemies and got to King. :P

He then just faded, like most heavy alcoholics do, undil they slide out of life. I can't recall him trying to accomplish anything during the saga, but keep enforcing his destructive habits in a very privileged position. I find him a sad character, really. 

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Was Robert doomed from the start?

No, I don't think so. He had as much agency as anyone in Westeros, indeed more than most. He could have made the right decisions, he could have stopped drinking, he could have given up that empty, hedonistic lifestyle and could have found something more meaningful to do. 

True, he wasn't cut out for ruling a country. Yet, it wasn't such a big problem while Jon Arryn was by his side. If he had shown proper interest in the affairs of his own country and if he had been wise enough to always listen to the right people, he could have been a good enough king. Not a great or talented king, but  a king good enough to make competent and honest people run his country. He certainly could have decided to become, if not necessarily a much better king, a better person at least, and that would have been something

While I think he had the means to change for the better if only he had had the will, I also think that certain circumstances made him become what he ended up being, and in different circumstances he could have found it easier to be a better person. Losing Lyanna was one of these circumstances. I agree that Lyanna was more like an ideal for him than an actual person, and she also became the only woman who was denied to him, which increased her importance to the level of an obsession. 15 years after the Battle on the Trident, Robert confesses that he still kills Rhaegar every night. This is not healthy at all, and it can at least partially explain his need for whoring or drinking - anything may seem preferable to those dreams. Now, I know that these tendencies had been there before the rebellion as well. He was flawed even then, and his obsession simply intensified his worst personal qualities. Still, there is a significant difference between moderate and excessive. 

His horrible nightly fights with Cersei may be one of the consequences of that obsession, too. Cersei has taken Lyanna's place, after all, while she was also one of Rhaegar's admirers. Their whole relationship is a war, where Robert has the superior physical strength (and he uses it), but Cersei surely knows how to hurt him verbally (and probably hurts him as often as possible). It is enough to compare him unfavourably to Rhaegar, and he feels deeply offended, especially if, deep in his heart, Robert is not absolutely sure that Lyanna did not voluntarily choose Rhaegar over him. In bed, what happens between Robert and Cersei is not love-making but physical fight, the only way Robert knows to deal with a conflict.

Is he like that with all women? Was he always like that? It was mentioned upthread that Robert never has a mistress, never a lasting relationship, only whores. But before the Rebellion, he actually may have had a mistress: Mya Stone's mother, who was a commoner, yet, Robert kept visiting his daughter with her (his firstborn) even after losing interest in the mother. This implies, at least, that the relationship was a bit more than a one-night affair: He was still there when Mya was little, so that Mya actually has memories of him from early childhood, and Robert even wanted to take her to King's Landing, only Cersei warned him not to. All this makes me think that Robert gradually got worse rather than having always been the horrible, irresponsible, "hopeless" womanizer we know him to be.

We see other examples in ASOIAF that men change their behaviour in bed when they are angry, frustrated or afraid. Theon Greyjoy, while not exactly a paragon of chivalry in his best moments, becomes violent in bed only when he is frustrated and afraid. Tyrion literally pampers Shae, yet he takes out his anger and frustration on Illyrio's servant girl in a revolting way. Robert's disturbing behaviour towards Cersei may be similar, though Cersei at least has some means to fight back. In fact, I'm not sure Cersei - consciously or subconsciously - doesn't want to keep him that way. It is not because Cersei enjoys being raped or beaten but because the consequent shame Robert feels is a weapon that Cersei can use to torment him and to keep his self-esteem low - and, last but not least, it makes her contempt for him and her cheating on him seem justified. 

All in all, Robert keeps fighting Rhaegar and in this fight he cannot win. There is no way to defeat the dead.

Quote

"Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won." 

I think this very unhealthy obsession with Rhaegar and Lyanna, perhaps coupled with a somewhat paranoid fear of the Targaryens coming back, accounts for a lot of bad things we associate with Robert. Add to this a job that bores him and makes him feel incompetent and the sense that he can do whatever he wants to because he has no boss. Sadly, if he had had to fight more wars during his reign, he could have felt more competent and more in his element.   

It is not easy to overcome serious psychological problems and alcoholism without help, but Robert certainly could have tried harder, because in his better moments I think he saw that things had gone horribly astray and perhaps deep down somewhere it actually mattered to him. 

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23 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I believe she rationalizes that just after she mentioned she slept with Jaime on the morning of her wedding IIRC

Yes but when she speaks to ned stark when he confronts her and during the conversation he asks why she hates robert so much and she tells him it was because of him whispering lyanna into her ear on their wedding night. I think she would have given it half a shot otherwise. Even if it was only because she could manipulate him and have the power she craves.

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1 hour ago, snow is the man said:

Yes but when she speaks to ned stark when he confronts her and during the conversation he asks why she hates robert so much and she tells him it was because of him whispering lyanna into her ear on their wedding night. I think she would have given it half a shot otherwise. Even if it was only because she could manipulate him and have the power she craves.

Maybe. Cersei doesn't seem to be the type to ever truly love anyone but herself, so I have my doubts about her attempts and that particular passage given her actions that day. Robert did, however, fuck up really bad by mentioning Lyanna.

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5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Cersei may be one of the consequences of that obsession, too. Cersei has taken Lyanna's place, after all, while she was also one of Rhaegar's admirers. Their whole relationship is a war, where Robert has the superior physical strength (and he uses it), but Cersei surely knows how to hurt him verbally (and probably hurts him as often as possible). It is enough to compare him unfavourably to Rhaegar, and he feels deeply offended, especially if, deep in his heart, Robert is not absolutely sure that Lyanna did not voluntarily choose Rhaegar over him. In bed, what happens between Robert and Cersei is not love-making but physical fight, the only way Robert knows to deal with a conflict.

Is he like that with all women? Was he always like that? It was mentioned upthread that Robert never has a mistress, never a lasting relationship, only whores. But before the Rebellion, he actually may have had a mistress: Mya Stone's mother, who was a commoner, yet, Robert kept visiting his daughter with her (his firstborn) even after losing interest in the mother. This implies, at least, that the relationship was a bit more than a one-night affair: He was still there when Mya was little, so that Mya actually has memories of him from early childhood, and Robert even wanted to take her to King's Landing, only Cersei warned him not to. All this makes me think that Robert gradually got worse rather than having always been the horrible, irresponsible, "hopeless" womanizer we know him to be.

Meh, Robert likes do revel in adulation and a toddler can provide that. A little girl could be so easily amused and awed. It's fun to play dad now and again. But, ultimately it was another game. He forgot about her as soon as he left. He only wanted to bring her to Kingslanding immediately after the "incident" between Joffery and the  pregnant cat.  It was less paternal love fueling his sudden desire to his bastard daughter as much as it is him needing reaffirment that he isn't responsible for his son being a little monster and to cheer himself up

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Losing Lyanna was one of these circumstances. I agree that Lyanna was more like an ideal for him than an actual person, and she also became the only woman who was denied to him, which increased her importance to the level of an obsession. 15 years after the Battle on the Trident, Robert confesses that he still kills Rhaegar every night. This is not healthy at all, and it can at least partially explain his need for whoring or drinking - anything may seem preferable to those dreams. Now, I know that these tendencies had been there before the rebellion as well. He was flawed even then, and his obsession simply intensified his worst personal qualities. Still, there is a significant difference between moderate and excessive. 

I think that's simultaneously the best dream he could ever have: on the one hand it's the greatest moment of his life but also the day he peaked. It was all down hill from there and he knows it.  Truth be told I wonder if between having one more bout with the dragon prince and bringing back Lyanna which has would he choose.

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On 1/30/2018 at 6:37 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Maybe. Cersei doesn't seem to be the type to ever truly love anyone but herself, so I have my doubts about her attempts and that particular passage given her actions that day. Robert did, however, fuck up really bad by mentioning Lyanna.

I don't think she would have loved him but she would have played the game or at least not despised him to the point where she loved it when he died. They would have at least been able to be civil.

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31 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I don't think she would have loved him but she would have played the game or at least not despised him to the point where she loved it when he died. They would have at least been able to be civil.

True. I mean getting forced to marry and cheated on is the sadly something highborn ladies are groomed since birth to accept; I'm sure if Robert kept his "activities" to discreet she wouldn't feel such resentment for her husband; but he's making her a laughing stock on how brazen he is about it. And the fact he sometimes slumbers in her bed chamber drunk to do his "husbandly duties" 

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Robert doesn't have the patience and the temperament to rule anything larger than soldiers on the battlefield for a very brief and very narrow mission.  He would have done better as a hedge knight. 

We complain about Tywin's poor family man skills for failing to see what was going on within his own household but Robert takes the award for failing to see what was right before his eyes.  His wife and the man who was supposed to give up his own life to protect his was having an affair for 17 years!   Sure, Cersei has a reason to fool around to pay him back for his infidelity.  But Jaime has no excuse to repeatedly betray the man who pardoned him and he swore to protect.  And Robert never reasoned it out.  I know the twins were careful and many others who should have caught on were fooled but Robert is the husband.  His domestic skills are poor to say the least and his rule was not much better.

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