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Brienne's Honor in Pennytree


Curled Finger

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19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Dang Zapho, what took you so long to jump in?   You've made some great points here.  I think you are the 1st to state that Jamie knows he's breaking his oaths.  That's a new and shiny one.  Sorry, I have gone back to read thrice now.   Let me ask about 1st things 1st.  Do you reject the idea that Jamie is on a redemption arc?  Or do you think his efforts are inadequate? 

Off the top of my head you've got a good grasp on how the Faceless Men could play into this.  Wish you could see the little light switch on over my head. 

Better late than never.  Thanks so much for joining in the discussion.  

Wow, this thread is moving fast. Thanx for the warm welcome, Curled Finger. :)

Do I reject the idea that Jamie is on a redemption arc? N...hm...nyet. I dunno. He's deeply conflicted and disillusioned about his life, that's for sure. What I miss is a drive to really change or at least be honest with himself. I think Haus Berlin's analysis that he gave Oathkeeper and the mission to save Sansa to Brienne because he felt sorry for her is spot on, but it's only one side of the coin. He also does it because he feels sorry for himself. Brienne exemplifies something he always wanted to be but never managed to: an honorable knight. By handing over his sword Oathkeeper to her he entrusted her with fulfilling an ideal that he has given up on. Mostly because he's learned that a knight's honor and stupidity often look very much alike (his 'realistic' outlook is spiced with bone-deep cynycism, cultivated no doubt in KL). He's full of self-loathing and he has nothing but contempt for people like Rymar Frey. But it doesn't stop him from acting dishonorable (I have no doubt that he would have acted on his threat to shoot Edmure's baby over the walls of Riverrun, e.g.). For all his thoughts about honor, valor and oaths, he has mostly given up on the idea that they have meaning for him personally. It might be a sign of depression and/or PTSD after losing his hand. The thing is that I don't think it's likely that he finds the strength to overcome it. The problem is that he is still too self-centered to be on a path of redemption. He mourns the loss of his honour, his disillusionment with Cersei is about her betraying him and his idea of a pure love between him and his female mirror (twin sister) which he still dreams about in aFfC. The incestuous relationship between Jamie and Cersei has not been one-sided, Jamie's love for her is as much narcissistic as Cersei's for him. The hints that he rationalizes it now as her having seduced him is not at all a sign that he is starting to be honest with himself, in fact, I think it's symptomatic of his other self-delusions.

I dunno if I managed to explain why I am sceptical about Jamie's chances for redemption. Maybe it helps to compare his arc to that of Sandor Clegane, who imo is undoubtedly on a redemption arc. The difference between Sandor and Jamie is that Sandor comes to realize that it is possible that genuine goodness exists and that it is worthwhile to change his life. Sandor used to be a cynic but he never lied to himself about it. In his encounters with Sansa, which were instrumental in setting him on a path of redemption, both learned to see the other one as a person rather than the Hound or the little bird. It might not be obvious from what they are saying, but their body-language and the things they talk about show that they are communicating on a personal level. I don't wanna digress too much here, an in-depth analysis of the subtext of their interaction can be found in this wonderful reread thread about Sandor: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/128194-the-will-to-change-rereading-sandor-ii/&page=1

Anyway, the point I am trying (and probably failing) to make here is that Jaime's interactions with Brienne lack this profound personal aspect. They are both unable to see the other one for who they really are. They might have been through a lot together, gained some mutual respect for each other, learned some painful personal secrets, but they don't understand each other. Especially Brienne is too naive to see that Jaime's issues run deeper than being the Kingslayer. Jaime's values have eroded for years, he's nothing left that gives meaning to his life. She won't be able to save him because she is nothing more to him than the memory of his lost ideals - a memory which he pities while mourning it.

 

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20 minutes ago, Zapho said:

Anyway, the point I am trying (and probably failing) to make here is that Jaime's interactions with Brienne lack this profound personal aspect. They are both unable to see the other one for who they really are. They might have been through a lot together, gained some mutual respect for each other, learned some painful personal secrets, but they don't understand each other. Especially Brienne is too naive to see that Jaime's issues run deeper than being the Kingslayer. Jaime's values have eroded for years, he's nothing left that gives meaning to his life. She won't be able to save him because she is nothing more to him than the memory of his lost ideals - a memory which he pities while mourning it.

I can see a redemption arc for Jaime.  He was at one time an idealist. Arthur Dayne was his hero but over the years he has become jaded.  It isn't until Jaime tells Brienne about killing Aerys that she realizes that he killed the king to save the city and everyone in it.  That's when she starts to call him Jaime instead Kingslayer.  Jaime complains that he is always swearing and oath to someone or something and that the vows he takes conflict with each other more often than not.  This is his situation in a nutshell; his honor is always compromised by one oath or another.  It's Brienne who reminds him of what he was meant to be; what really matters to a true knight.  The fact that he starts feeling some compassion for Brienne, can actually empathize with her and takes steps to strenghthen her committment, resolve as a true knight; even though she still gets on his nerves is a positive development for Jaime's character.  

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26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It is odd isn't it that Rorge and Biter first show up with Jaqen so I wonder if the faceless men have associates so to speak.  Maybe not all acolytes become full-fledged FM but serve in another capacity.  I do wonder about Clegane's helm and whether it was forged by Tobho Mott possibly employing ancient spells.  Thoros seems to think that the helm contains the evil of those who have worn it and that wearing it will have an evil affect.  I also wonder about the Fat Man that Arya identifies.  Zollo the Fat is the one who cut off Jaime's sword hand and he's still lurking about.  Perhaps such a precise comparison between Plague Face in the HoB&W and Brienne' encounter with the the man weeping sores is meant to draw out attention to the Bloody Mummers.

The business with the glass candle in Marywn's quarters is interesting given that Qyburn also has an association with both Marwyn and the Mummer's.  When Sam enters Marwyn's chambers he notices the smell of something burnt on the brazier.  So perhaps we have blood magic used in conjunction with the glass candles to see into the flames. 

 

I don t know if you have seen PJ vídeos about deeper dorne, but you should. Among several things (some I like others I don t) he makes this connections. 

oberyn has the same interests as qyburn-studied at the citadel, joined a sellsword company (many believe he founded the brave companions), his daughter is close to marwin and qyburn likes marwin, both are said to know a lot about poisons and practice black magic...

Then he talks about how the first thing the brave companions do when they see Jamie is cut his hand without any need to. And one of the parts I like most. It was the acts of the brave companion against septons that lead to the new rise in power of the fatih of the seven (which is true). And then he talks about it seems like someone sent a mensage in a dream (using a glass candle) to lancel for him to join the faith (because of the way lancel describes his dream)...

So if you want to study a possible connection between FM in the brave companions and then with marwin I think they are spying in doran's scheme and preparing themselves to stop it if they want. 

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3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

while looking for "weeping sores" I reread Brienne's fever dream and I believe it can give us some insight into her behavior when she meets Jaime. Let's take a look:

<snip>

She believes Jaime can save her. He has already, once... Jaime, even without his swordhand, actually saved Brienne from that bear pit. 

Now things are different thought. She is being watched by dead people, people she failed to protect and people she killed herself. She feels responsible. She feels disgusted. And she reaches for oatkeeper, she calls for Jaime. She sees him as a away out. She believes in him. 

Oh, absolutely. Jaime has very much become the Knight in Shining Armor in Brienne's phantasies. I think he might even have replaced Renly somewhat in that role.

Brienne is as naive as early Sansa in some respects. And she's also not too bright (the way she kept asking about Sansa on her way was not an example of refined cunning). It's quite possible that she has been hoodwinked into thinking that the BwB will eventually see in him what she sees herself. Or ...

4 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

When we see her again she is finding Jaime. And she touches her swordhilt. She is reassuring herself. Now she has her sword and she has Jaime. She finally believes she can get out of it. I believe, like Curled Fingers, that Brienne may be trusting in Jaime's hability to beguile their captors... 

if we believe Brienne never intended to slay Jaime, "sword!" was her first lie. If she can lie (not without honor!) she may be lying to Jamie for some higher purpose. She does love him. She believes he could save her... 

... Brienne could also have accepted that she has to kill Jaime. If she was convinced it was her duty - because Jaime betrayed his oath - she would put her personal feelings aside and act on it. Her touching Oathkeeper for reassurance wouldn't be out of place in this scenario either. She would definitely feel conflicted about it and need to remind herself of the oaths sworn.

btw: Someone upthread mentioned an oath Brienne swore to Jaime. When did that happen? I only recall their oaths to Lady Cat. Brienne swore to keep him safe while on the mission and to kill him should he try to betray his own oath. What did I miss?

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18 minutes ago, divica said:

Then he talks about how the first thing the brave companions do when they see Jamie is cut his hand without any need to.

Thanks for the information.  I can't find anything about Lancel's dream in the text though.  Can you point me to something?

I always connect Jaime's words to Bran "Take my hand." and this curious gesture of Jaqen H'gar's:

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A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

When Jaime loses his sword hand, he loses his identity.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Thanks for the information.  I can't find anything about Lancel's dream in the text though.  Can you point me to something?

I always connect Jaime's words to Bran "Take my hand." and this curious gesture of Jaqen H'gar's:

When Jaime loses his sword hand, he loses his identity.

I was searching and I think he was refering to this

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"You are not wrong," said Lancel, "but my folly is behind me, ser. I have asked the Father Above to show me the way, and he has. I am renouncing this lordship and this wife. Hardstone is welcome to the both of them, if he likes. On the morrow I will return to King's Landing and swear my sword to the new High Septon and the Seven. I mean to take vows and join the Warrior's Sons."

And I could understand if PJ said that it was a very specific thing to do and someone could have used a glass candle to impersonate the father and send this mensage to Lancel. However when we see the whole text

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"You are not wrong," said Lancel, "but my folly is behind me, ser. I have asked the Father Above to show me the way, and he has. I am renouncing this lordship and this wife. Hardstone is welcome to the both of them, if he likes. On the morrow I will return to King's Landing and swear my sword to the new High Septon and the Seven. I mean to take vows and join the Warrior's Sons."
The boy was not making sense. "The Warrior's Sons were proscribed three hundred years ago."
"The new High Septon has revived them. He's sent out a call for worthy knights to pledge their lives and swords to the service of the Seven. The Poor Fellows are to be restored as well."

Lancel is having a religious crisis, the HS sends a letter asking knights to become warriors sons and he thinks it is a sign from the father. The end and PJ sucks.

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You are all reading too much into this.  Brienne is lying to get Jamie to come with her.  She uses the Hound because she knows that the Hound taking one of the girls hostage would be plausible.  Also Jamie wouldn't wonder why Brienne wouldn't fight someone like the Hound, since he is probably one of the best fighters in the 7Ks.  Also, the Hound is someone who Jamie would feel comfortable with meeting, figuring he would want a ransom and not vengeance or revenge since to the best of my knowledge, Jamie never did anything to him.

My guess is that she will reveal the truth once they leave Jamie's camp in order to prepare a counter to the ambush that awaits them.  Her thoughts are it is the only way to save Podrick .

     

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31 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I just have to say that it was established back in AGOT that Umber has a messed up shoulder.  I have a messed up shoulder as well, lots of people do.  Just because someone at the house of black and white had a messed up shoulder doesn't mean he is impersonating Umber.

Was there someone at the meeting with a messed up shoulder?  I didn't notice.

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18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Riverlands Web is a forum gang of theorists.  You can search back for their wonderful conversations.   Lots of fun.  However, Wizz can correct me, but I think the name of the group relates to the web of intrigue in the Riverlands as well.   

Yep, exactly right. 

'A forum gang of theorists'........I like the sound of that.  :P

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Agreed. Doesn't Stoneheart know Oathkeeper is in part Ice? I may be making this up, happens a lot. 

No, Stoneheart doesn't know that Oathkeeper has been forged from Ice.  That has always bugged me a little, surely Brienne should've mentioned that, instead she only mentions how Jaime has changed [saved her from rape, saved her from the bear, sent her to find Sansa etc.]  And this after Jaime says how fitting it is that she will be serving the Stark's with Ned's own steel, baffling.  :dunno:  I have to think that Brienne has since relayed this info though, we have a gap between the hanging and the Pennytree scene where there had to have been conversation/planning, it would be odd if Brienne hasn't told LSH by now.  If Brienne, for whatever reason, hasn't told Stoneheart yet then there is a chance it may be identified by other means.  The blade was re-forged by Tobho Mott and would have his mark/signature, therefore Gendry would be able to recognise his work and they may be able to put two and two together.  Alternatively, Thoros got his steel from Mott, perhaps he might recognise Mott's work. 

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I also think that Brienne has realised already that Stoneheart is not Catelyn, and she cannot hope to keep her oath to Cat w/o seriously harming Jaime - either by her own hands or by luring him into a trap and delivering him to LSH to be killed.

There. Is. No. Way. Brienne. Will. Do. This. (Imo)

Agreed

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh thank you! That's a great quote, and another important bit I had no recollection of...

I have long thought that most of the RL smallfolk support the BwB; some more actively, some more passively. I really like that some of its lords are in on it as well. 

No problem.  :cheers:

Regarding the river lords, there is a brilliant set up to confirm their BWB support which starts way back in ASOS in Arya's chapters when she is travelling with Beric and co and comes to fruition when Jaime attends the second siege of Riverrun.............[To my knowledge it was @Lady Gwynhyfvar who first posted about all this]

BWB network of friends

Arya and the BWB visit Lord Lychester's keep seeking information, the maester helps them.....

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 The small square keep was half a ruin, and so too the great grey knight who lived there.[Lord Lychester] He was so old he did not understand their questions. No matter what was said to him, he would only smile and mutter, "I held the bridge against Ser Maynard. Red hair and a black temper, he had, but he could not move me. Six wounds I took before I killed him. Six!"

The maester who cared for him was a young man, thankfully. After the old knight had drifted to sleep in his chair, he took them aside and said, "I fear you seek a ghost. We had a bird, ages ago, half a year at least. The Lannisters caught Lord Beric near the Gods Eye. He was hanged."   [ Arya IV , ASOS ]

They then meet with the Lady of the Leaves for information, Jack-be-Lucky is with her, and he is from Piper lands. [And we know Piper & Vance are supporters anyway] 

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'' My father got himself good and hanged by Lord Piper's bailiff '' [ Arya IV, ASOS ]

Another friend/ally they meet with is Lady Smallwood......

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'' Lady Smallwood welcomed the outlaws kindly enough '' [ Arya IV, ASOS ]

They then visit the Peach where they make acquaintances with the prostitutes........ 

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Greenbeard had two girls, one on each knee. Anguy had vanished with his freckle-faced wench, and Lem was gone as well. Tom Sevenstrings sat by the fire, singing. "The Maids that Bloom in Spring." Arya sipped at the cup of watered wine the red-haired woman had allowed her, listening. Across the square the dead men were rotting in their crow cages, but inside the Peach everyone was jolly. Except it seemed to her that some of them were laughing too hard, somehow.

Next is the Hound's trial. He is accused of killing people from houses Roote, Charlton and Bracken among others, it seems the Brotherhood are keeping close tabs on who is being killed in the Riverlands.  The Hound of course refutes these claims....

Quote

 

"Ser Andrey Charlton. His squire Lucas Roote. Every man, woman, and child in Fieldstone and Mousedown Mill."

"Lord and Lady Deddings, that was so rich."

Tom Sevenstrings took up the count. "Alyn of Winterfell, Joth Quick-bow, Little Matt and his sister Randa, Anvil Ryn. Ser Ormond. Ser Dudley. Pate of Mory, Pate of Lancewood, Old Pate, and Pate of Shermer's Grove. Blind Wyl the Whittler. Goodwife Maerie. Maerie the Whore. Becca the Baker. Ser Raymun Darry, Lord Darry, young Lord Darry. The Bastard of Bracken. Fletcher Will. Harsley. Goodwife Nolla—"

"Enough." The Hound's face was tight with anger. "You're making noise. These names mean nothing. Who were they?"

 

 
They then meet with a guy called Notch, from Goodbrook's village.
 
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''Notch was a stooped man, born in these parts. This was Lord Goodbrook's village'' [ Arya VIII, ASOS ]

And of course the BWB are also in contact with the Vance Maester.

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''Lord Vance's Maester will know more'' [ Arya VIII, ASOS ]

                                        ____________________________________________

So the supportive Houses/friends that the BWB have visited or seem to have ties with include Lychester, Vance, Roote, Goodbrook, Smallwood, Piper, Bracken and Charlton.  Now check out the text when Jaime arrives at the second siege of RR

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 To reach Ser Daven's camp they had to ride through Emmon Frey's, past the pavilions of the river lords who had bent their knees and been accepted back into the king's peace. Jaime noted the banners of Lychester and Vance, of Roote and Goodbrook, the acorns of House Smallwood and Lord Piper's dancing maiden, but the banners he did not see gave him pause. The silver eagle of Mallister was nowhere in evidence; nor the red horse of Bracken, the willow of the Rygers, the twining snakes of Paege. Though all had renewed their fealty to the Iron Throne, none had come to join the siege. The Brackens were fighting the Blackwoods, Jaime knew, which accounted for their absence, but as for the rest . . 

So it turns out that all these river lords who had bent the knee and are supposed to be in support of the crown are actually BWB supporters!!  These Houses account for a huge amount of the camp, the BWB and river lords are all over this and Jaime is surrounded. 

Of the other quotes I supplied, the Brotherhood also visited the whores at the Peach, and we know they are all over the camp as well, the Queen 'o' whores was key in the retrieval of Robb's crown.  And House Charlton are sworn to the Frey's and therefore with their retinue, an aptly placed informant for potential spying in the Frey camp!  ;)   

I hope this helps clear up how many river lords are working alongside the BWB, they really have got things covered it seems.  @Cridefea this is what I mean when talking about the 'web' created in the RL's.  :D 

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5 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Yep, exactly right. 

'A forum gang of theorists'........I like the sound of that.  :P

No, Stoneheart doesn't know that Oathkeeper has been forged from Ice.  That has always bugged me a little, surely Brienne should've mentioned that, instead she only mentions how Jaime has changed [saved her from rape, saved her from the bear, sent her to find Sansa etc.]  And this after Jaime says how fitting it is that she will be serving the Stark's with Ned's own steel, baffling.  :dunno:  I have to think that Brienne has since relayed this info though, we have a gap between the hanging and the Pennytree scene where there had to have been conversation/planning, it would be odd if Brienne hasn't told LSH by now.  If Brienne, for whatever reason, hasn't told Stoneheart yet then there is a chance it may be identified by other means.  The blade was re-forged by Tobho Mott and would have his mark/signature, therefore Gendry would be able to recognise his work and they may be able to put two and two together.  Alternatively, Thoros got his steel from Mott, perhaps he might recognise Mott's work. 

Great post!

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Deny it all you want. That sword says you're a liar. Are we supposed to believe the Lannisters are handing out gold and ruby swords to foes? That the Kingslayer meant for you to hide the girl from his own twin? I suppose the paper with the boy king's seal was just in case you needed to wipe your arse? And then there's the company you keep . . ." The big man turned and beckoned, the ranks of outlaws parted, and two more captives were brought forth. "The boy was the Imp's own squire, m'lady," he said to Lady Stoneheart. "T'other is one of Randyll Bloody Tarly's bloody household knights."

Aren t they talking about oathbreaker? If they see or know that it is a valyrian sword... People know that the lannysters didn t have valyrians swords and recently stole ice...

If all the lords at RR are supporters of the BwB I don t think the lannysters and freys will survive the wedding in RR...

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@ divica: Awesome, just awesome. These connections make one hell of a lot of sense. Any chance there is a connection to the sorcerer who cut Varys in this? Marwyn to awake the dragons? Sorry for the tangent, that's one of my pet loose ends in Planetos lore. There is just no good theory about it and it is important says my gut.

@LynnS: Redemption for Jaime is certainly a possibility. His arc takes the classic direction for it. Which makes me wary. If you look closer, there is not much character development in Jaime. The things I do for love was right at the beginning of the series. We've got the element of self-loathing (an unkind interpretation might call it hypocritical self-pity) at having to do something profoundly despicable. Yet he does it anyway. And his reasons are selfish, unlike his famous Kingslaying no-one can claim it was for the greater good. Anyway, maybe I'm biased against Jaime. This first impression stuck with me and I can't read his POV without bearing in mind that he actually said "The things I do for love". It's not just the things he did, it is the claim he does it for love that is telling. There is an element of idealization that simply is hypocritical, delusional and somewhat juvenile. He never even considers that his love is putting his sister (and their mutual children) in mortal danger, destabilizing the realm, hang a sword of Damocles over their children's heads by laying doubts over their legitimacy and so on.

His POV is certainly not as madness-tainted as Cersei's, but I don't think it's the reality check on hers that it looks like (in aFfC). It's mostly the things that are not there that are telling. It's easy to loathe Cersei while reading her POV, but it's also there that Jaime does not support her while it happens. He starts to loathe her instead of trying to bring her back and prevent her from undermining their son's position. While she goes on a grieve-induced rampage he does not do enough to stop it. Instead of taking an active part in the government and their son's education, he plays the LC of the Kingsguard. His dream of marrying Cersei and making their relationship public is as mad as anything Cersei did and again incredibly selfish. He doesn't even consider the very real implications for their children. It's once again some romanticized, idealized notion he embraces instead of taking responsibility for the mess he helped create and do something constructive. Dare I say it, he's sort of a coward. He moans about the loss of his sword hand (which is certainly traumatic) while he doesn't rise up to the challenges that don't require him swinging a sword. Deep down, I think he is unable to cope with the demands of RL. That's what his self-imposed restriction of his role as KG and only KG is really about: eschewing responsibilty. Is this too harsh a judgement? Maybe. But on the other hand is it really too much to ask of a father to do everything in his power to protect his children? And to expect him to at least consider that this is his prime responsibility? This is the vibe I miss from his POV the most. He is no father to his children and he fails miserably as a partner for his 'love'. 

To somehow wind up this rambling post, I think that Jaime has an unhealthy relationship with ideals and idealizations. He has been using them as his personal comfort zones and retreats for years. In a morbid, often self-pitying fashion. That's why I don't think that his relationship with Brienne can be the spark that kindles true redemption. Brienne embodies an idea he loves or used to love. The problem with Jaime is as ever that it is quite questionable whether he loves the idea of the idea or the real thing. 

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8 minutes ago, divica said:

Great post!

Aren t they talking about oathbreaker? If they see or know that it is a valyrian sword... People know that the lannysters didn t have valyrians swords and recently stole ice...

If all the lords at RR are supporters of the BwB I don t think the lannysters and freys will survive the wedding in RR...

Hi Divica and thanks  :)

Yes I agree that could well happen, but perhaps it would take a bit of time to come to that conclusion, I'm not sure they would have absolute confirmation that Tywin took Ned's sword after his death let alone that he had it re-forged into two blades.  The colour and size of Oathkeeper is also very different to that of Ice, that might throw LSH of the case.  She studies the blade and doesn't seem to notice.  Even though people are aware the Lannister's didn't own a Valyrian Steel blade it would be quite a jump to instantly know it is Ice having only just seen it. 

But yes, you make a very good point, if no one informs Stoneheart and crew then the clues are definitely there for them to pick up on for sure.  Or maybe they've already worked it out as you suggest.  :D  

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25 minutes ago, Zapho said:

@ divica: Awesome, just awesome. These connections make one hell of a lot of sense. Any chance there is a connection to the sorcerer who cut Varys in this? Marwyn to awake the dragons? Sorry for the tangent, that's one of my pet loose ends in Planetos lore. There is just no good theory about it and it is important says my gut.

He doesn t talk about varys wizard. But makes other intersting connections. It is a good series of videos to open your mind and help understand what is doran and oberin plan, but you have to be carefull when PJ starts to see things that aren t in the books.

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Looks like this thread has moved quite fast without my presence.  A few random thoughts

FAceless Men:  While I think it is possible that the FM are operating in Westeros, I doubt that they are in the Riverlands.  Rorge and Biter, I think, are exactly what they appear to be; very dangerous criminals.  They have certainly acted the part since their release from Yoren's wagon.   

Piper:  Lew Piper is a squire for Jaime.  He and Graeme Paege are also effectively hostages.  I suppose he could be a spy, although I don't know what he could report.  Jaime's group is a large one, and I doubt that their moves are all that secret.  With respect to Vance's suggestion that Jaime go to Raventree, that is quite logical.  That siege does need to get ended, and it is clear that it won't end without some outside intervention.  Jaime is the perfect person to end it.  

The River Lords hearts do seem to be "wolfish" , as Daven put it, so there might be some communication between them and resistance forces (such as they are).   It is hard to tell how powerful the BwB is at the moment.  They seem to have split, as some prominent member seem to be absent.

I think any mission involving Jaime would have to involve the real thing.  Jaime is too well known for a fake to work, in my opinion, and I don't see any reason for the FM to have any interest in the BwB.  In fact I think (hope) that the FM is merely a device for George to move Arya's story along.

Brienne and Jaime:  Brienne kept calling for Jaime and saying how close she was to him.  Sending her to him is a logical action even if she said nothing further.  I don't know if the story she told Jaime is hers or one she was told, but I don't think anyone is in real danger, or that the real Hound is anywhere in the vicinity.  I think it is possible that Lem could be dressed in the Hound helm with Willow as a fake hostage to fool Jaime.  

Thoros and Lem:  Thoros of Myr and Lem Lemoncloak are both high-ranking, well-known members of the BwB.  As such, it is unlikely that they would be able to simply leave and blend into the countryside.  In fact, with Thoros, I expect he is still with the group because he see no real alternative for himself.  

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18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

My old computer is acting fritzy again, which means I can’t post very easily. 

However, there is one thing that I am not sure I’ve seen mentioned here (it could have been, but this bread is moving lightening fast). Has anyone brought up the weirdwoood stump dream Jaime has? Someone probably has and I just missed it. 

Haven't seen it yet, Leech.  But it's a good time to start.   What say ye, Sai?  

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Looks like this thread has moved quite fast without my presence.  A few random thoughts

FAceless Men:  While I think it is possible that the FM are operating in Westeros, I doubt that they are in the Riverlands.  Rorge and Biter, I think, are exactly what they appear to be; very dangerous criminals.  They have certainly acted the part since their release from Yoren's wagon.   

Piper:  Lew Piper is a squire for Jaime.  He and Graeme Paege are also effectively hostages.  I suppose he could be a spy, although I don't know what he could report.  Jaime's group is a large one, and I doubt that their moves are all that secret.  With respect to Vance's suggestion that Jaime go to Raventree, that is quite logical.  That siege does need to get ended, and it is clear that it won't end without some outside intervention.  Jaime is the perfect person to end it.  

The River Lords hearts do seem to be "wolfish" , as Daven put it, so there might be some communication between them and resistance forces (such as they are).   It is hard to tell how powerful the BwB is at the moment.  They seem to have split, as some prominent member seem to be absent.

I think any mission involving Jaime would have to involve the real thing.  Jaime is too well known for a fake to work, in my opinion, and I don't see any reason for the FM to have any interest in the BwB.  In fact I think (hope) that the FM is merely a device for George to move Arya's story along.

Brienne and Jaime:  Brienne kept calling for Jaime and saying how close she was to him.  Sending her to him is a logical action even if she said nothing further.  I don't know if the story she told Jaime is hers or one she was told, but I don't think anyone is in real danger, or that the real Hound is anywhere in the vicinity.  I think it is possible that Lem could be dressed in the Hound helm with Willow as a fake hostage to fool Jaime.  

Thoros and Lem:  Thoros of Myr and Lem Lemoncloak are both high-ranking, well-known members of the BwB.  As such, it is unlikely that they would be able to simply leave and blend into the countryside.  In fact, with Thoros, I expect he is still with the group because he see no real alternative for himself.  

Yah Nevets and you were doing such a good job hosting there for a while.  That's it, you get to do the dishes!  Let's talk about stuff...

1.  Faceless Men are a mystery to me.   At 1st blush it is such an out there thought, but as folks warm up to it and bring their voices to the possibility I can see it happening.   And it creeps me out, frankly.   Either way I like to ponder a new possibility I've never seen.   Reminds me of a guy who told me some fascinating things back in an ancient TWOW topic.  Just a cool thought and idea.  I'm enjoying the debate. 

2.  Lew Piper is the guy I kept thinking was Peck Vance!   (sorry @divica!) And thank you, kind Ser, I couldn't face picking up my little phone to read another word.  Since you bring hostages into I am wondering if the conspirators haven't brought their children into the web in hopes of either getting intel or maybe influencing Jamie to go in certain directions?  Hos was right there with suggesting Pennytree, after all.  I agree entirely regarding the siege.  Jamie is the perfect guy to end it.   

3.  Yes and where could those missing prominent members be?   I don't think we've touched on that yet. 

4.  I get where you're coming from.   The faces seem a bit of a cheat to me when I watch all the theorists on youtube go nuts with Arya taking this or that face to kill this or that character.   I don't know that we need that.   While I agree the real Jamie is most likely required, I still don't know what this requirement is so I'm staying open until I knew what's going on. 

5.  Oh GADS reading your words I'm just now recalling her fever calls to Jamie.   How could I possibly forget that?  And what could she have said at unawares?  Eeek!   Could well be that there is a little drama being played out for Jamie's benefit with actors like Lem and Willow.   If so and my hero, Brienne isn't lying I will feel quite satisfied.  Now you have me wondering why go to those extremes?  What is this plan for Jamie?  Another test?  

6.  You could be underestimating Lem and Thoros.  They were right arms of the Lightning Lord.  I really think Thoros is watching LSH but I don't know what for.   He's so unhappy with her.   Do they refrain from putting her out of her misery for Harwyn?  Hallis?  Are they really searching for Arya under all this?   I don't get it.   When Brienne comes around and she begins to ask questions did it strike you as way out of character for Lem and the other man to be almost playful in answering her?  They seem very lighthearted to me (maybe I just don't understand) but they say things like "No I was the Lightning Lord yesterday, it's your turn today"--paraphrased.   What do you make of that?  Then again I could be overestimating the entire thing because I don't understand.   Feel free to straighten me out.  

I see several mini plots in the Riverlands, beneath the large and small conspiracies.   If that gravedigger is someone we know he's got to come to light eventually, right?   Brienne and Jamie's honor, individually and collectively.  LSH.   Lem.  Thoros.    The missing BWB.  The helm.  The Blackfish.   The Wedding.   The spies.  The crowns.  3 sets of hostages.   There is just so much happening here.    I like your format and hope you don't mind that I answered you in kind.   It's such an easier way to keep the thoughts straight.   

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19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

My old computer is acting fritzy again, which means I can’t post very easily. 

However, there is one thing that I am not sure I’ve seen mentioned here (it could have been, but this bread is moving lightening fast). Has anyone brought up the weirdwoood stump dream Jaime has? Someone probably has and I just missed it. 

Yes probably someone mentioned it! Anyhow yes  we should discuss it... I was re-reading the chapter and Brienne description of the cave is very similar to the one  in Jaime's dream.

5 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Yep, exactly right. 

'A forum gang of theorists'........I like the sound of that.  :P

No, Stoneheart doesn't know that Oathkeeper has been forged from Ice.  That has always bugged me a little, surely Brienne should've mentioned that, instead she only mentions how Jaime has changed [saved her from rape, saved her from the bear, sent her to find Sansa etc.]  And this after Jaime says how fitting it is that she will be serving the Stark's with Ned's own steel, baffling.  :dunno:  I have to think that Brienne has since relayed this info though, we have a gap between the hanging and the Pennytree scene where there had to have been conversation/planning, it would be odd if Brienne hasn't told LSH by now.  If Brienne, for whatever reason, hasn't told Stoneheart yet then there is a chance it may be identified by other means.  The blade was re-forged by Tobho Mott and would have his mark/signature, therefore Gendry would be able to recognise his work and they may be able to put two and two together.  Alternatively, Thoros got his steel from Mott, perhaps he might recognise Mott's work. 

Agreed

No problem.  :cheers:

Regarding the river lords, there is a brilliant set up to confirm their BWB support which starts way back in ASOS in Arya's chapters when she is travelling with Beric and co and comes to fruition when Jaime attends the second siege of Riverrun.............[To my knowledge it was @Lady Gwynhyfvar who first posted about all this]

BWB network of friends

Arya and the BWB visit Lord Lychester's keep seeking information, the maester helps them.....

They then meet with the Lady of the Leaves for information, Jack-be-Lucky is with her, and he is from Piper lands. [And we know Piper & Vance are supporters anyway] 

Another friend/ally they meet with is Lady Smallwood......

They then visit the Peach where they make acquaintances with the prostitutes........ 

Next is the Hound's trial. He is accused of killing people from houses Roote, Charlton and Bracken among others, it seems the Brotherhood are keeping close tabs on who is being killed in the Riverlands.  The Hound of course refutes these claims....

 
They then meet with a guy called Notch, from Goodbrook's village.
 

And of course the BWB are also in contact with the Vance Maester.

                                        ____________________________________________

So the supportive Houses/friends that the BWB have visited or seem to have ties with include Lychester, Vance, Roote, Goodbrook, Smallwood, Piper, Bracken and Charlton.  Now check out the text when Jaime arrives at the second siege of RR

So it turns out that all these river lords who had bent the knee and are supposed to be in support of the crown are actually BWB supporters!!  These Houses account for a huge amount of the camp, the BWB and river lords are all over this and Jaime is surrounded. 

Of the other quotes I supplied, the Brotherhood also visited the whores at the Peach, and we know they are all over the camp as well, the Queen 'o' whores was key in the retrieval of Robb's crown.  And House Charlton are sworn to the Frey's and therefore with their retinue, an aptly placed informant for potential spying in the Frey camp!  ;)   

I hope this helps clear up how many river lords are working alongside the BWB, they really have got things covered it seems.  @Cridefea this is what I mean when talking about the 'web' created in the RL's.  :D 

oh great! now I see the "web" and I've also seen old threads  @Curled Finger mentioned! I was thinking, if there is a plan to capture Jaime, were they already looking for Brienne? Because I was wondering how they already knew what LSH wanted to do with Brienne... or they talked to her while Brienne was unconscious...  have to check the timeline.

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4 hours ago, Zapho said:

@ divica: Awesome, just awesome. These connections make one hell of a lot of sense. Any chance there is a connection to the sorcerer who cut Varys in this? Marwyn to awake the dragons? Sorry for the tangent, that's one of my pet loose ends in Planetos lore. There is just no good theory about it and it is important says my gut.

@LynnS: Redemption for Jaime is certainly a possibility. His arc takes the classic direction for it. Which makes me wary. If you look closer, there is not much character development in Jaime. The things I do for love was right at the beginning of the series. We've got the element of self-loathing (an unkind interpretation might call it hypocritical self-pity) at having to do something profoundly despicable. Yet he does it anyway. And his reasons are selfish, unlike his famous Kingslaying no-one can claim it was for the greater good. Anyway, maybe I'm biased against Jaime. This first impression stuck with me and I can't read his POV without bearing in mind that he actually said "The things I do for love". It's not just the things he did, it is the claim he does it for love that is telling. There is an element of idealization that simply is hypocritical, delusional and somewhat juvenile. He never even considers that his love is putting his sister (and their mutual children) in mortal danger, destabilizing the realm, hang a sword of Damocles over their children's heads by laying doubts over their legitimacy and so on.

His POV is certainly not as madness-tainted as Cersei's, but I don't think it's the reality check on hers that it looks like (in aFfC). It's mostly the things that are not there that are telling. It's easy to loathe Cersei while reading her POV, but it's also there that Jaime does not support her while it happens. He starts to loathe her instead of trying to bring her back and prevent her from undermining their son's position. While she goes on a grieve-induced rampage he does not do enough to stop it. Instead of taking an active part in the government and their son's education, he plays the LC of the Kingsguard. His dream of marrying Cersei and making their relationship public is as mad as anything Cersei did and again incredibly selfish. He doesn't even consider the very real implications for their children. It's once again some romanticized, idealized notion he embraces instead of taking responsibility for the mess he helped create and do something constructive. Dare I say it, he's sort of a coward. He moans about the loss of his sword hand (which is certainly traumatic) while he doesn't rise up to the challenges that don't require him swinging a sword. Deep down, I think he is unable to cope with the demands of RL. That's what his self-imposed restriction of his role as KG and only KG is really about: eschewing responsibilty. Is this too harsh a judgement? Maybe. But on the other hand is it really too much to ask of a father to do everything in his power to protect his children? And to expect him to at least consider that this is his prime responsibility? This is the vibe I miss from his POV the most. He is no father to his children and he fails miserably as a partner for his 'love'. 

To somehow wind up this rambling post, I think that Jaime has an unhealthy relationship with ideals and idealizations. He has been using them as his personal comfort zones and retreats for years. In a morbid, often self-pitying fashion. That's why I don't think that his relationship with Brienne can be the spark that kindles true redemption. Brienne embodies an idea he loves or used to love. The problem with Jaime is as ever that it is quite questionable whether he loves the idea of the idea or the real thing. 

You and our new friend, @Haus Berlin remind me a bit of my own er, disapproval and mistrust of Cat.   You don't trust Jamie.   I get that completely.  And to be honest, it's good to have opposing ideas when the characters at issue are major characters.   Jamie's been a jerk.  His talk with Edmure drives that home.  Still I have to consider how he treated Tytos as well and there was honor and kindness in that.   I digress.   Jamie is developing slowly and is conflicted about pretty much everything.   Do I think the Jamie we have now is capable of heading back to Cersei and storming Riverrun?   Yes.  He constantly thinks about not taking up arms against the Tullys and what a pain in the neck Brienne is.  Then we see him in person allowing himself to threaten people and take hostages, be rude and arrogant and downright mean.   I balance that with the nightly beatings he's subjecting himself to.   He wants to be a knight.   A good knight.  Can he do it?   Pretty tall order for a guy missing his sword hand.  Even he knows this.

Seems to me Jamie has been manipulated by Cersei his entire life.   But he was a good brother to Tyrion.   I wonder if Jamie's affection for Tyrion isn't part of her loathing for him.   She wants all his attention and love.   I think it's pretty telling in Cersei's POV about Jamie.   She doesn't want him until she can turn to no one else.  I've never ever thought theirs was a love story.   Not even close.   That one is about power and domination and selfishness.   And madness.  I'm not sure Jamie could do more to straighten Cersei out.   Do you have any ideas?   

Between Brienne's admiration and Cersei's rejection Jamie has to find himself.    While I agree he's got a very long way to go, don't count him out yet.  He's not afraid to die.  He's willing to face the Hound without a sword hand or even much ability to fight anymore at all because his friend tells him a girl they swore to keep safe was in danger.   That gives me a lot of hope for Jamie.  I expect him to be a very different man when his last words are spoken.  

I'm not trying to persuade you.   These are simply the ways I deal with Jamie since I hated his stinking guts in the beginning.  I have to constantly remind myself that this is about war and the ugliness and futility of war.  And I'm really enjoying your opinions here.   I'm pleased you feel so comfortable here that you're not ill at ease in voicing your opinions.   

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