Curled Finger Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 21 minutes ago, Cridefea said: Yes probably someone mentioned it! Anyhow yes we should discuss it... I was re-reading the chapter and Brienne description of the cave is very similar to the one in Jaime's dream. oh great! now I see the "web" and I've also seen old threads @Curled Finger mentioned! I was thinking, if there is a plan to capture Jaime, were they already looking for Brienne? Because I was wondering how they already knew what LSH wanted to do with Brienne... or they talked to her while Brienne was unconscious... have to check the timeline. Great old threads, huh? Did you see my very 1st post ever in 1 of them? I wish everyone on the forum understood that there is a person behind the words on the screen (Thank you, @Lady Dacey). Don't get me wrong, diversity is great. Even conflict is great sometimes. So long as we can choose our words with kindness and understanding. Of course, Riverlands Web group took that to an entirely unique level in answering every single post and providing safe conversational guest right. No one ever felt stupid with those folks. Not even me with my very 1st post. And I see you are as taken with our old friend @Wizz-The-Smith as we all are. When do you ever get arms like that with brains and manners? I think the BWB may well have known about Brienne traveling and asking about Sansa. If not I think she was on their radar and they took her as a matter of convenience. Remember, the Inn is acting as an orphanage of sorts. Some folks think Willow and Gendry have set up house there in hopes of finding Arya. I can see the merit in that. Further, Gendry may have reported that Brienne was injured trying to fight the brutes off. It's pretty clear someone at or near the Inn ratted Brienne out. The BWB was coming for her injured or not. And, my clever friend, isn't it curious that Septon Meribald and Dog were both released whereas little Pod was not? All in all I think it's probable that the BWB was making plans for Jamie and Brienne fell into their hands. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 8 hours ago, divica said: I don t know if you have seen PJ vídeos about deeper dorne, but you should. Among several things (some I like others I don t) he makes this connections. oberyn has the same interests as qyburn-studied at the citadel, joined a sellsword company (many believe he founded the brave companions), his daughter is close to marwin and qyburn likes marwin, both are said to know a lot about poisons and practice black magic... Then he talks about how the first thing the brave companions do when they see Jamie is cut his hand without any need to. And one of the parts I like most. It was the acts of the brave companion against septons that lead to the new rise in power of the fatih of the seven (which is true). And then he talks about it seems like someone sent a mensage in a dream (using a glass candle) to lancel for him to join the faith (because of the way lancel describes his dream)... So if you want to study a possible connection between FM in the brave companions and then with marwin I think they are spying in doran's scheme and preparing themselves to stop it if they want. I knew you like Preston. I just knew it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 On 1/2/2018 at 5:06 PM, RedGrace that was promised said: Does this thread have any connection with Brienne's possible ancestor Dunk and Arlan of Pennytree? You are more than welcome to bring it up, RedGrace. We are discussing everything Riverlands here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 15 hours ago, Lady Dacey said: Do you really believe he's saying what he means? That it's nothing to him what fate Brienne chooses? I don't think so. This is his chapter, we get insight on his thoughts... my interpretation was quite different. I think that quote is one of those wonderful "can be taken several ways" quotes. @Haus Berlin--where is that guy?--told me early on that he believed Jamie was pushing Brienne into herself. Brienne was distraught when Jamie sent her on quest. It's Haus' 2nd post I think. Very well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 8 hours ago, Zapho said: Oh, absolutely. Jaime has very much become the Knight in Shining Armor in Brienne's phantasies. I think he might even have replaced Renly somewhat in that role. Brienne is as naive as early Sansa in some respects. And she's also not too bright (the way she kept asking about Sansa on her way was not an example of refined cunning). It's quite possible that she has been hoodwinked into thinking that the BwB will eventually see in him what she sees herself. Or ... ... Brienne could also have accepted that she has to kill Jaime. If she was convinced it was her duty - because Jaime betrayed his oath - she would put her personal feelings aside and act on it. Her touching Oathkeeper for reassurance wouldn't be out of place in this scenario either. She would definitely feel conflicted about it and need to remind herself of the oaths sworn. btw: Someone upthread mentioned an oath Brienne swore to Jaime. When did that happen? I only recall their oaths to Lady Cat. Brienne swore to keep him safe while on the mission and to kill him should he try to betray his own oath. What did I miss? No oath that I recall, only that time in the bath house where Jamie was determined to confess his sin of kingslaying. I think at that point Brienne began to trust Jamie and see into his better self. He earned her respect. Brienne believes in Jamie. You didn't miss a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 6 hours ago, Chris Mormont said: You are all reading too much into this. Brienne is lying to get Jamie to come with her. She uses the Hound because she knows that the Hound taking one of the girls hostage would be plausible. Also Jamie wouldn't wonder why Brienne wouldn't fight someone like the Hound, since he is probably one of the best fighters in the 7Ks. Also, the Hound is someone who Jamie would feel comfortable with meeting, figuring he would want a ransom and not vengeance or revenge since to the best of my knowledge, Jamie never did anything to him. My guess is that she will reveal the truth once they leave Jamie's camp in order to prepare a counter to the ambush that awaits them. Her thoughts are it is the only way to save Podrick . No my friend, we're just having fun and enjoying the conversation. Welcome, @Chris Mormont! Do you think Brienne came up with the story about the girl and the Hound all herself? (I'm not sure--just gleaning intel!) Remember, Brienne is injured quite badly when she goes to Jamie. His first words to her are something along the lines of "You are injured!" I had to do a quick reread of Jamie's last AFFC and the ADWD chapter for our timeline. I was surprised to be reminded of the many times Jamie thinks the Hound would whip him while he's traveling through the Riverlands. No, I don't recall any conflict between Jamie and the Hound, but Jamie works for the Crown and Sandor Clegane is a traitor for abandoning his post during the Battle of the Blackwater. Does it need to be a personal thing? I'm with you, I think somehow Brienne will be able to clue Jamie in on what's going on. Go get a nice hot adult beverage, pull on some comfy pants and read back a bit if you haven't already. No one here will jump you for not agreeing and I like it that you felt comfortable enough to share your thoughts with us. Feel free to jump in where ever you please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 6 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: 'A forum gang of theorists'........I like the sound of that. No, Stoneheart doesn't know that Oathkeeper has been forged from Ice. That has always bugged me a little, surely Brienne should've mentioned that, instead she only mentions how Jaime has changed [saved her from rape, saved her from the bear, sent her to find Sansa etc.] And this after Jaime says how fitting it is that she will be serving the Stark's with Ned's own steel, baffling. I have to think that Brienne has since relayed this info though, we have a gap between the hanging and the Pennytree scene where there had to have been conversation/planning, it would be odd if Brienne hasn't told LSH by now. If Brienne, for whatever reason, hasn't told Stoneheart yet then there is a chance it may be identified by other means. The blade was re-forged by Tobho Mott and would have his mark/signature, therefore Gendry would be able to recognise his work and they may be able to put two and two together. Alternatively, Thoros got his steel from Mott, perhaps he might recognise Mott's work. Of the other quotes I supplied, the Brotherhood also visited the whores at the Peach, Thanks Wizz-- @Cridefea will astound you with some of her inquiries. She and I have been together since the last big sword conversation and she knows her stuff. To the business at hand...I never got the impression the BWB noted anything other than the lionshead pommel about Oathkeeper. But this is a big fat conspiracy and they could well have known it was at the very least VS. Then again, Tywin was out trying to buy up VS swords from "impoverished houses" and I gather it was a fairly well known fact. You bring up some very nice possibilities in Mr. Mott's work here with both Thoros and Gendry in a position to identify the blade. As to why Brienne may not give up anything about the sword, she does consider it Jamie's sword and my just be protecting his property. Either way, I'm with you and don't think the BWb knows ... yet! Personally I think the BWB should all go back to the Peach for a weekend. Could improve their dispositions a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Quote 2) The Hand's Tourney. I think there was a lot of foreshadowing in the Hand's Tourney ... The Hound is eventually declared the overall winner of the tournament when he steps in to defend Ser Loras from Ser Gregor's violence after the semi-final joust. Ser Loras had defeated Ser Gregor and The Hound had defeated Jaime Lannister in the semi-finals. The other victors are a commoner named Anguy (from the Dornish Marches) in the archery and Thoros of Myr in the melee. Anguy and Thoros both join the BwB. They both seem to be part of the faction that splits off from the BwB after Ser Beric gives way to Lady Stoneheart. 4) Cersei's champion. Cersei begs Jaime to come back to King's Landing to defend her in a Trial by Combat. Jaime burns her letter. Instead, it appears that she will be defended by Ser Robert Strong, the reborn, headless (?) Gregor Clegane. So Jaime and Ser Robert Strong are being compared, right? They were both candidates for Cersei's champion, so they might be compared on that basis. But what if we are supposed to compare Cersei and Jaime ... he might soon need a champion. Who would be comparable to Ser Robert Strong without a head? How about The Hound without a helmet? 5) Vargo Hoat. Gregor Clegane keeps reappearing in a lot of the events that I think could foreshadow Jaime and/or Brienne's future. After Vargo Hoat's Brave Companions chopped off Jaime's arm, Ser Gregor inflicted a lengthy torture on Hoat as payback from Tywin Lannister. Could the torture of Hoat foreshadow the fate of Jaime, if the BwB and Lady Stoneheart get a hold of him? Would LSH direct her followers to chop off Jaime's other arm? He already confessed to pushing Bran off the wall at Winterfell. Would she like to see Jaime lose his legs? Jaime rescued Brienne from Vargo Hoat's bear pit where she had been forced to defend herself with a blunt blade instead of a real sword. Is it now her turn to rescue him? On 1/1/2018 at 10:33 PM, Curled Finger said: Reminding us of the Hand's Tourney where so many of our moving parts in the Riverlands triumphed was beyond cool. I can't even find the words to describe how cool it was to read that. Anguy and Thoros and of course, our Hound. I'm not sure how to connect that, but surely it means something. Do you think it impacts anything that Jamie and Brienne are a team? I'm not sure I completely get the parts about Cersei and Vargo (can't you just look a little surprised?)...if you have a moment could you help me get a better grasp on those parts? The parts I do get are astonishing, so I really want to understand everything. At the tourney Renly held at Bitterbridge, Brienne beat Ser Loras in the melee. So we probably have to consider Ser Loras along with these other players, and the list of victors may take the foreshadowing to plot developments outside the scope of the Brienne / Jaime focus of this thread. (Which other living characters have won prizes in tourneys? Ser Jorah. Ser Barristan. Harrold Hardyng. Whoever wins at the upcoming Vale tourney. Maybe all these victors will add up to your twelve companions for the last hero?) With regard to the Brienne / Jaime focus of this thread, one possibility is that The Hound, Anguy and Thoros will team up. Let's say that Anguy and Thoros were given guard duty over Brienne one night. They help her escape and help her to lure Jaime away, knowing that he will be safer if he is hidden away. All four of them make their way to the Quiet Isle for safety, and meet up there with The Hound. Or the "Brienne" we see luring Jaime away from his army is a glamor, conjured by Thoros using the ruby in Oathkeeper's sheath. (He was able to take the sword when all BwB eyes were focused on the hanging torture of Brienne and her companions.) Thoros and Anguy help Jaime to escape to the Quiet Isle before Lady Stoneheart can send the real Brienne on her new mission to kill Jaime. I will add that I see The Hound as the embodiment of the Long Night. He is darkness personified. So the fact that he and Ser Loras never fought for the championship of the Hand's Tourney might answer my puzzlement about the possible "solar" wordplay in the name Loras. Night and Day are supposed to clash, and they haven't yet. Or maybe the point is that night and day never quite meet - one begins where the other ends. I was a bit too sketchy on those last two points (numbers 4 and 5 in the previous post), I can see. I'm not sure I can fully explain the foreshadowing, other than to note that it could exist. Maybe I can add some things that help others to see what I see. I think most people anticipate that a dead or reborn Gregor Clegane is Ser Robert Strong, the new member of the king's guard and Cersei's champion for her upcoming trial by combat for her sins. Cersei wanted Jaime as her champion but gets Ser Robert instead. In other words, Jaime has been displaced or replaced or maybe just matched by undead Gregor. The likely role for undead-Gregor / Ser Robert Strong as a champion in a trial by combat reflects the trial-by-combat I anticipate in Jaime's future.* The fact that Gregor / Ser Robert has no head is different from Jaime, however. Is the lack of a head a different hint from the author about the parallels in Cersei's new champion and Jaime? I tried to think of another character whose head was missing and came up with The Hound as a potential match because he left his helmet behind after the fight at the inn at the crossroads. He also happens to be closely related to Ser Gregor. But how or why would he be linked to a trial-by-combat scenario for Jaime. It was largely speculation on my part, but I guessed that he might end up serving as Jaime's champion, similar to Gregor / Ser Robert serving as Cersei's champion. But this may be too hard to believe - Jaime has been practicing his swordsmanship and is unlikely to let someone else fight his battle for him. Ser Gregor is strongly linked to Vargo Hoat because 1) they both worked for Tywin, wreaking havoc in the Riverlands, and 2) Ser Gregor tortured Vargo to death after Vargo ordered the amputation of Jaime's hand. The links of both characters to Jaime and the Lannisters are also well-established, but here are some additional details: "Hoat" and "Oath" wordplay. Vargo Hoat wears a chain decorated with coins. Lannisters are associated with money and always paying their debts. Vargo Hoat is nicknamed the Goat. There are lots of references to goats in Tyrion's arc: Shagga of the mountain clan regularly threatens to cut off Tyrion's manhood and feed it to goats. Jaime's arm us cut off and "fed" to Vargo Hoat. When Penny tells Tyrion how wonderful it is to travel from town to town and receive the applause of lowborn audiences, Tyrion says that small folk would kill a two-headed goat and eat it when they stop being amused by it. Vargo Hoat was killed, butchered and fed to prisoners as punishment for maiming Jaime. As mentioned earlier in this thread, at the Stonebridge Inn, Brienne eats goat meat (along with Ser Illifer the Pennyless and Ser Creighton Longbow). Is she symbolically partaking in the cannibalism associated with the death of Vargo Hoat? Is this foreshadowing something about the fate of Tyrion? Penny's brother, Groat, was beheaded before Tyrion took his role in the mummer jousting act. So my speculation about Vargo Hoat as a source of foreshadowing is that Lady Stoneheart's plan for Jaime might be reflected in the fate of Vargo Hoat. Is she so angry that she plans to dismember him in a way similar to the dismembering of Vargo Hoat? sweetsunray (and perhaps others) have analyzed the Ned / Catelyn arc in terms of the Isis / Osiris myth. Osiris was dismembered by his brother, who wanted to take his place as king. The body parts were found by Isis, however, sister-wife of Osiris. (Hmm. Sister-wife. Hmm.) The body was reassembled / reanimated with the help of a magic guy who was a friend of the family. If Jaime is (let's assume symbolically) dismembered, the Isis / Osiris story might offer a hint about how he would be reassembled and put back into useful service. I hope that's a little bit clearer explanation of some of the possibilities I see in the breadcrumb trail GRRM has laid out for us. *Not necessarily on the Brienne / Jaime topic, but worth noting: Gregor dashed the brains of baby Aegon against a wall. (Or so we are told many times - it may have been a different baby.) Joffrey used a trebuchet to throw antler men over a wall. Jaime threatens to use a trebuchet to throw Edmure's baby over a wall. Undead-Gregor / Ser Robert Strong picks up naked Cersei after her walk of shame and she says she feels like a baby in his arms, recalling picking up baby Joffrey in her own arms. Based on Gregor's treatment of the baby Aegon, Cersei is wrong to feel a sense of security when she is picked up like a baby by this particular humanoid. The baby-smashing threat from Jaime to Edmure could be counted as yet another similarity between Gregor and Jaime, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Seams said: At the tourney Renly held at Bitterbridge, Brienne beat Ser Loras in the melee. So we probably have to consider Ser Loras along with these other players, and the list of victors may take the foreshadowing to plot developments outside the scope of the Brienne / Jaime focus of this thread. (Which other living characters have won prizes in tourneys? Ser Jorah. Ser Barristan. Harrold Hardyng. Whoever wins at the upcoming Vale tourney. Maybe all these victors will add up to your twelve companions for the last hero?) With regard to the Brienne / Jaime focus of this thread, one possibility is that The Hound, Anguy and Thoros will team up. Let's say that Anguy and Thoros were given guard duty over Brienne one night. They help her escape and help her to lure Jaime away, knowing that he will be safer if he is hidden away. All four of them make their way to the Quiet Isle for safety, and meet up there with The Hound. Or the "Brienne" we see luring Jaime away from his army is a glamor, conjured by Thoros using the ruby in Oathkeeper's sheath. (He was able to take the sword when all BwB eyes were focused on the hanging torture of Brienne and her companions.) Thoros and Anguy help Jaime to escape to the Quiet Isle before Lady Stoneheart can send the real Brienne on her new mission to kill Jaime. I will add that I see The Hound as the embodiment of the Long Night. He is darkness personified. So the fact that he and Ser Loras never fought for the championship of the Hand's Tourney might answer my puzzlement about the possible "solar" wordplay in the name Loras. Night and Day are supposed to clash, and they haven't yet. Or maybe the point is that night and day never quite meet - one begins where the other ends. I was a bit too sketchy on those last two points (numbers 4 and 5 in the previous post), I can see. I'm not sure I can fully explain the foreshadowing, other than to note that it could exist. Maybe I can add some things that help others to see what I see. I think most people anticipate that a dead or reborn Gregor Clegane is Ser Robert Strong, the new member of the king's guard and Cersei's champion for her upcoming trial by combat for her sins. Cersei wanted Jaime as her champion but gets Ser Robert instead. In other words, Jaime has been displaced or replaced or maybe just matched by undead Gregor. The likely role for undead-Gregor / Ser Robert Strong as a champion in a trial by combat reflects the trial-by-combat I anticipate in Jaime's future.* The fact that Gregor / Ser Robert has no head is different from Jaime, however. Is the lack of a head a different hint from the author about the parallels in Cersei's new champion and Jaime? I tried to think of another character whose head was missing and came up with The Hound as a potential match because he left his helmet behind after the fight at the inn at the crossroads. He also happens to be closely related to Ser Gregor. But how or why would he be linked to a trial-by-combat scenario for Jaime. It was largely speculation on my part, but I guessed that he might end up serving as Jaime's champion, similar to Gregor / Ser Robert serving as Cersei's champion. But this may be too hard to believe - Jaime has been practicing his swordsmanship and is unlikely to let someone else fight his battle for him. Ser Gregor is strongly linked to Vargo Hoat because 1) they both worked for Tywin, wreaking havoc in the Riverlands, and 2) Ser Gregor tortured Vargo to death after Vargo ordered the amputation of Jaime's hand. The links of both characters to Jaime and the Lannisters are also well-established, but here are some additional details: "Hoat" and "Oath" wordplay. Vargo Hoat wears a chain decorated with coins. Lannisters are associated with money and always paying their debts. Vargo Hoat is nicknamed the Goat. There are lots of references to goats in Tyrion's arc: Shagga of the mountain clan regularly threatens to cut off Tyrion's manhood and feed it to goats. Jaime's arm us cut off and "fed" to Vargo Hoat. When Penny tells Tyrion how wonderful it is to travel from town to town and receive the applause of lowborn audiences, Tyrion says that small folk would kill a two-headed goat and eat it when they stop being amused by it. Vargo Hoat was killed, butchered and fed to prisoners as punishment for maiming Jaime. As mentioned earlier in this thread, at the Stonebridge Inn, Brienne eats goat meat (along with Ser Illifer the Pennyless and Ser Creighton Longbow). Is she symbolically partaking in the cannibalism associated with the death of Vargo Hoat? Is this foreshadowing something about the fate of Tyrion? Penny's brother, Groat, was beheaded before Tyrion took his role in the mummer jousting act. So my speculation about Vargo Hoat as a source of foreshadowing is that Lady Stoneheart's plan for Jaime might be reflected in the fate of Vargo Hoat. Is she so angry that she plans to dismember him in a way similar to the dismembering of Vargo Hoat? sweetsunray (and perhaps others) have analyzed the Ned / Catelyn arc in terms of the Isis / Osiris myth. Osiris was dismembered by his brother, who wanted to take his place as king. The body parts were found by Isis, however, sister-wife of Osiris. (Hmm. Sister-wife. Hmm.) The body was reassembled / reanimated with the help of a magic guy who was a friend of the family. If Jaime is (let's assume symbolically) dismembered, the Isis / Osiris story might offer a hint about how he would be reassembled and put back into useful service. I hope that's a little bit clearer explanation of some of the possibilities I see in the breadcrumb trail GRRM has laid out for us. *Not necessarily on the Brienne / Jaime topic, but worth noting: Gregor dashed the brains of baby Aegon against a wall. (Or so we are told many times - it may have been a different baby.) Joffrey used a trebuchet to throw antler men over a wall. Jaime threatens to use a trebuchet to throw Edmure's baby over a wall. Undead-Gregor / Ser Robert Strong picks up naked Cersei after her walk of shame and she says she feels like a baby in his arms, recalling picking up baby Joffrey in her own arms. Based on Gregor's treatment of the baby Aegon, Cersei is wrong to feel a sense of security when she is picked up like a baby by this particular humanoid. The baby-smashing threat from Jaime to Edmure could be counted as yet another similarity between Gregor and Jaime, however. Yowza! Seams, thank you so much for going into a deeper explanation for...ME! I get it all now. You had to throw that heroes hook out too, didn't you? I can't wait to get started on that research. Outine format seems to be helping me organize my thoughts. I hope you don't mind. 1. Another very interesting scenario. And glamors! Have you had a chance to look @LynnS' ideas about the Faceless Men? Glamor talk took me right there. You think there may be some double crossing here. Excellent. I have harbored the hope that Thoros really is a good guy and that he will help Brienne. Anguy could return to the fold at any time and he's another high ranking officer in the BWB. It's been mentioned that a Trial by Combat could be demanded. I don't think Jamie's dumb, he would need a champion. (Yes, I like the idea that Sandor is tracking Brienne sorry!) A full on escape would be fascinating. Question: can Thoros glamor? I know the ruby is Mel's thing, but she's also a shadow binder. I think I'm really asking if the ability to glamor stems from R'hllor, shadow binding or the stones themselves? 2. Hey now, even I get the symbolism between one ending and the other beginning without meeting. Well done. 3. I know you get so excited when you've got an idea. I really appreciate the improved breakdown of the items I didn't get the 1st time around. You indulge me. I get it and I'm right there. I think we have to go with a symbolic disassembling of Jamie. All LSH seems to do is hang people--but what do I know? How could our Golden Boy be disassembled symbolically? We have a magic guy in Thoros. It isn't every day you meet a guy who can raise the dead and we know the Riverlands is a magic place, hollow hills and all. 4. You actually gave me a chill with the explanation about Cersei in Robert Strong's arms. That was some very nice comparsions, too. You are a peach to go to all this trouble, Seams. Thanks a million! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haus Berlin Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Thanks again for your kind words, @Curled Finger. It makes writing in your third language so much easier when your reader considers your words kindly and puts effort into understanding you. I got questions to answer and do it gladly. Because I've just completed reading the last 4 Jamie chapters I have to ask if you discount his repeated thoughts about keeping his vows? Could it be that at the time Jamie gifted Brienne with Oathkeeper he had to take a stern and perhaps deceptive approach with her? Perhaps to refocus her? (Or even perhaps was reminded simply by being back in the place the vows were made? He does not make a straight line for Riverrun, which I find curious.) I share your impression that his last chapters show Jaime’s growing identification with his vows. In his third AFFC chapter he even opposes Cersei by reminding her of his vow to Catelyn, not to raise arms against Starks or Tullys, and points out that his place is with the king, as LC of the KG. Of course Cersei still wants him in the RL, saying that vows done under alcohol or pressure don’t matter and that Jaime is more useful for Tommen outside KL. Again a worried mother sets Jaime outside castle walls and again it feels for him as if wind ruffles through his hair like fingers of a woman... But how to handle this sudden freedom? Somehow he seems to share Brienne’s problem: Her big hand wrapped tight around Oathkeeper. “I will. And I will find the girl and keep her safe. For her lady mother’s sake. And for yours.” She bowed stiffly, whirled, and went. Jaime sat alone at the table while the shadows crept across the room. As dusk began to settle, he lit a candle and opened the White Book to his own page. Quill and ink he found in a drawer. Beneath the last line Ser Barristan had entered, he wrote in an awkward hand that might have done credit to a six-year-old being taught his first letters by a maester: Defeated in the Whispering Wood by the Young Wolf Robb Stark during the War of the Five Kings. Held captive at Riverrun and ransomed for a promise unfulfilled. Captured again by the Brave Companions, and maimed at the word of Vargo Hoat their captain, losing his sword hand to the blade of Zollo the Fat. Returned safely to King’s Landing by Brienne, the Maid of Tarth. When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom. Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth. Whatever he chose... Believing to take on Jaime’s job, Brienne hits the road with a renewed vow here (Jaime) so that hope doesn’t need to come from a vow to a dead person alone (Catelyn). But we don’t have Jaime writing in his book “a promise yet unfulfilled”; instead he starts to wonder about the meaning in his own life. Which is so far disconnected from the outcome of Brienne’s quest. This is Jaime’s last ASOS-chapter and only through Tyrion’s POV we get an impression what meaning Jaime might have found himself. When he frees Tyrion, feeling guilty for lying about Tysha, it seems that Jaime wants to make up for past mistakes. He thinks about telling Tommen and Myrcella the truth. And even though he knew how damaged the RL were from his first time there, it’s only the second time when he gets the idea that Brienne’s quest is connected to his own efforts – and the other way around. But sadly this is his last chapter and he has to see that his somewhat carelessly transfered quest left Brienne wounded and looking ten years older. Brienne doesn’t know that Jaime gave her this quest only for her own wellbeing. Looking for an unknown girl, she had to confront herself with thoughts as: What would I do, if I were a girl… and so far she ended up doing the complete opposite from what she thought Sansa should do for her safety. AFFC-Jaime on the contrary is about to watch out for both girls the same way: The world grew ever greyer as they drew near to Harrenhal. They rode beneath slate skies, beside waters that shone old and cold as a sheet of beaten steel. Jaime found himself wondering if Brienne might have passed this way before him. If she thought that Sansa Stark had made for Riverrun... Had they encountered other travelers, he might have stopped to ask if any of them had chance to see a pretty maid with auburn hair, or a big ugly one with a face that would curdle milk. But there was no one on the roads but wolves, and their howling held no answers. So would it be really a lie, if Brienne seeked Jaime’s help for herself? Travelling alongside Ser/My lady-Pod led Brienne not to Sansa but to this very interesting point: They had come to the crossroads, quite literally; the place where the kingsroad, the river road, and the high road all came together. The high road would take them east through the mountains to the Vale of Arryn, where Lady Sansa’s aunt had ruled until her death. West ran the river road, which followed the course of the Red Fork to Riverrun and Sansa’s great-uncle, who was besieged but still alive. Or they could ride the kingsroad north, past the Twins and through the Neck with its bogs and marshes. If she could find a way past Moat Cailin and whoever held it now, the kingsroad would bring them all the way to Winterfell. Or I could take the kingsroad south, Brienne thought. I could slink back to King’s Landing, confess my failure to Ser Jaime, give him back his sword, and find a ship to carry me home to Tarth, as the Elder Brother urged. The thought was a bitter one, yet there was part of her that yearned for Evenfall and her father, and another part that wondered if Jaime would comfort her should she weep upon his shoulder. That was what men wanted, wasn’t it? Soft helpless women that they needed to protect? “Ser? My lady? I asked, where are we going?” This is where Brienne’s quest comes to an end and it’s all about surviving herself. So yes, I think Brienne is now capable of actively reaching out for Jaime’s help. In her fever dreams she did it already. The timeline even parallels her trial with Cersei’s imprisonment and call for help. The timeline! Dear @Curled Finger, you asked me to take a look at yours on page 12 and all I can say is that I’m very content with it. Chronologization isn’t really my knack, so I used a tool that corresponds well with your depiction: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8 My idea of what happened during the five-day-gap is that: Following Brienne’s death, discord amongst the Brotherhood increases. Some openly oppose LHS’s decision to have people killed that defended them, just for their Lannister connection; that this stands against the idea of a Brotherhood without Banners. I can see Thoros sneaking out at nights, attempting to revive Brienne. Without success. He lacks the faith now. I can see LSH noticing this and loosing the taste in her mission. Part of the Brotherhood won’t stop hanging Lannisters and Freys anyway and the other part can have Brienne back, but true to her vows. So there’s nothing left she can do herself. The third night or so LSH passes her life to Brienne, who “awakes” next to a dead LSH, with Pod and Hyle still hanging in the trees. Brienne would think that Lem spared her own life to fulfill her promise to kill Jaime and that this hound is brutalized enough to kill his own leader. I can see Brienne burying the three corpses and go into hiding from Lem. But it is Thoros who comes looking for her, partly assuming that LSH’s disappearance has to do with Brienne. Brienne confronts him, thinking it was him who killed LSH after all. Thoros now knows for sure what had become of Brienne and LSH, but has to think about what it means for him, if Brienne is seen and LSH is lost. So he encourages Brienne’s fear of Lem and warns her to leave the RL which are likely to be turned into a slaughterhouse very soon, now with the Kingslayer and his army around. Brienne now feels the need to bring Jaime and herself out of danger. So she finds him, isolates him from the army and brings him to her hideout, sure that his care for Sansa expands to herself. Hiding then is not so easy. Winter is here and the BwB now not only looks for LSH but for Jaime too. No one looks for her, though and those wierwood caves can help Jaime and Brienne to come up with ideas for their future. But it’s Cersei’s decision to call the army back to KL for her safety, which changes the game for both of them. Jaime will be off to Highgarden for Tommen’s safety and Brienne will present herself to the BwB with something better than Jaime’s head: RR without bloodshed, the promise of the king’s peace and support from Highgarden. Truly it’s not so much what Brienne has to offer, but her pure existence that gains her the BwB’s company – out of horror. There was also one question from @Lady Dacey (ah, one of my favourites in the books!): Do you really believe he's saying what he means? That it's nothing to him what fate Brienne chooses? I don't think so. This is his chapter, we get insight on his thoughts... my interpretation was quite different. See, that’s the problem with Jaime and Brienne. Their low self-esteem makes it hard to get the proper meaning behind what the other said. Jaime compliments Brienne for wearing a dress that brings out her eyes and she says the dress is fake, it’s stuffed. Brienne compliments Jaime for being dressed as KG again and he says, well, I’m a cripple and I won’t prove worthy of this job. Those are the times, when being privileged as a reader feels frustrating. Take alone that The day had been a long one, and Brienne was tired. Even sitting up against the rock, with rain pattering softly all around her, she found her eyelids growing heavy. Twice she dozed. The second time she woke all at once, heart pounding, convinced that someone was looming over her. Her limbs were stiff, and her cloak had gotten tangled round her ankles. She kicked free of it and stood. Nimble Dick was curled against a rock, half-buried in wet, heavy sand, asleep. A dream. It was a dream. Perhaps she had made a mistake in abandoning Ser Creighton and Ser Illifer. They had seemed like honest men. Would that Jaime had come with me, she thought... but he was a knight of the Kingsguard, his rightful place was with his king. Besides, it was Renly that she wanted. I swore I would protect him, and I failed. Then I swore I would avenge him, and I failed at that as well. I ran off with Lady Catelyn instead, and failed her too. The wind had shifted, and the rain was running down her face. (Brienne IV, AFFC) and compare it to that “How is Cersei? As beautiful as ever?” “Radiant.” Fickle. “Golden.” False as fool’s gold. Last night he dreamed he’d found her fucking Moon Boy. He’d killed the fool and smashed his sister’s teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia. In his dreams Jaime always had two hands; one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other. “The sooner we are done with Riverrun, the sooner I’ll be back at Cersei’s side.” What Jaime would do then he did not know. He talked with his cousin for another hour before the Warden of the West finally took his leave. When he was gone, Jaime donned his gold hand and brown cloak to walk amongst the tents. If truth be told, he liked this life. He felt more comfortable amongst soldiers in the field than he ever had at court. And his men seemed comfortable with him as well. (Jaime V, AFFC) The point I tried to make is: How can someone mean what he or she said, if that someone doesn’t know about himself/ herself truly? And how then should another person succeed in understand the meaning of that someone’s words? Both Brienne and Jaime keep their Paynes around them; one who stumbles upon his own tongue, the other with no tongue at all. I think this tells us a lot about Brienne’s and Jaime’s need for communication. Jaime comes across as someone with a sharp tongue, when he really kept silent about the Mad King’s secret and lost his hand because of talking too much. This is the man who boasts to do things for love, but who can’t get out a straight answer why he cares for Brienne, when she asks him that… or he asks himself the same for that matter. As long Jaime doesn’t know the answer himself, Brienne would have a hard time to take in account how much she means to him. A pity, since in Harrenhal’s bathroom she defends Robert’s whole war with “Robert did all he did for love.”, so she likely understands one thing or another. Another thing, dear @Lady Dacey: You think “sword” starts Brienne’s career as a liar? IMO it wouldn’t be a lie; LSH herself named that sword Oathbreaker and can very well have that. And when “the girl” Jaime cares for the most is Brienne with “the hound” around, there’s also no lie. And there’s @Zapho who I want to answer: Someone upthread mentioned an oath Brienne swore to Jaime. When did that happen? I only recall their oaths to Lady Cat. Brienne swore to keep him safe while on the mission and to kill him should he try to betray his own oath. What did I miss? The oath Brienne swore to Jaime might be the one in the LC’s camber: To find the girl and keep her safe. Sworn by touching the hilt of her sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 10 hours ago, Haus Berlin said: Thanks again for your kind words, @Curled Finger. It makes writing in your third language so much easier when your reader considers your words kindly and puts effort into understanding you. I got questions to answer and do it gladly. Because I've just completed reading the last 4 Jamie chapters I have to ask if you discount his repeated thoughts about keeping his vows? Could it be that at the time Jamie gifted Brienne with Oathkeeper he had to take a stern and perhaps deceptive approach with her? Perhaps to refocus her? (Or even perhaps was reminded simply by being back in the place the vows were made? He does not make a straight line for Riverrun, which I find curious.) I share your impression that his last chapters show Jaime’s growing identification with his vows. In his third AFFC chapter he even opposes Cersei by reminding her of his vow to Catelyn, not to raise arms against Starks or Tullys, and points out that his place is with the king, as LC of the KG. Of course Cersei still wants him in the RL, saying that vows done under alcohol or pressure don’t matter and that Jaime is more useful for Tommen outside KL. Again a worried mother sets Jaime outside castle walls and again it feels for him as if wind ruffles through his hair like fingers of a woman... But how to handle this sudden freedom? Somehow he seems to share Brienne’s problem: Her big hand wrapped tight around Oathkeeper. “I will. And I will find the girl and keep her safe. For her lady mother’s sake. And for yours.” She bowed stiffly, whirled, and went. Jaime sat alone at the table while the shadows crept across the room. As dusk began to settle, he lit a candle and opened the White Book to his own page. Quill and ink he found in a drawer. Beneath the last line Ser Barristan had entered, he wrote in an awkward hand that might have done credit to a six-year-old being taught his first letters by a maester: Defeated in the Whispering Wood by the Young Wolf Robb Stark during the War of the Five Kings. Held captive at Riverrun and ransomed for a promise unfulfilled. Captured again by the Brave Companions, and maimed at the word of Vargo Hoat their captain, losing his sword hand to the blade of Zollo the Fat. Returned safely to King’s Landing by Brienne, the Maid of Tarth. When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom. Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth. Whatever he chose... Believing to take on Jaime’s job, Brienne hits the road with a renewed vow here (Jaime) so that hope doesn’t need to come from a vow to a dead person alone (Catelyn). But we don’t have Jaime writing in his book “a promise yet unfulfilled”; instead he starts to wonder about the meaning in his own life. Which is so far disconnected from the outcome of Brienne’s quest. This is Jaime’s last ASOS-chapter and only through Tyrion’s POV we get an impression what meaning Jaime might have found himself. When he frees Tyrion, feeling guilty for lying about Tysha, it seems that Jaime wants to make up for past mistakes. He thinks about telling Tommen and Myrcella the truth. And even though he knew how damaged the RL were from his first time there, it’s only the second time when he gets the idea that Brienne’s quest is connected to his own efforts – and the other way around. But sadly this is his last chapter and he has to see that his somewhat carelessly transfered quest left Brienne wounded and looking ten years older. Brienne doesn’t know that Jaime gave her this quest only for her own wellbeing. Looking for an unknown girl, she had to confront herself with thoughts as: What would I do, if I were a girl… and so far she ended up doing the complete opposite from what she thought Sansa should do for her safety. AFFC-Jaime on the contrary is about to watch out for both girls the same way: The world grew ever greyer as they drew near to Harrenhal. They rode beneath slate skies, beside waters that shone old and cold as a sheet of beaten steel. Jaime found himself wondering if Brienne might have passed this way before him. If she thought that Sansa Stark had made for Riverrun... Had they encountered other travelers, he might have stopped to ask if any of them had chance to see a pretty maid with auburn hair, or a big ugly one with a face that would curdle milk. But there was no one on the roads but wolves, and their howling held no answers. So would it be really a lie, if Brienne seeked Jaime’s help for herself? Travelling alongside Ser/My lady-Pod led Brienne not to Sansa but to this very interesting point: They had come to the crossroads, quite literally; the place where the kingsroad, the river road, and the high road all came together. The high road would take them east through the mountains to the Vale of Arryn, where Lady Sansa’s aunt had ruled until her death. West ran the river road, which followed the course of the Red Fork to Riverrun and Sansa’s great-uncle, who was besieged but still alive. Or they could ride the kingsroad north, past the Twins and through the Neck with its bogs and marshes. If she could find a way past Moat Cailin and whoever held it now, the kingsroad would bring them all the way to Winterfell. Or I could take the kingsroad south, Brienne thought. I could slink back to King’s Landing, confess my failure to Ser Jaime, give him back his sword, and find a ship to carry me home to Tarth, as the Elder Brother urged. The thought was a bitter one, yet there was part of her that yearned for Evenfall and her father, and another part that wondered if Jaime would comfort her should she weep upon his shoulder. That was what men wanted, wasn’t it? Soft helpless women that they needed to protect? “Ser? My lady? I asked, where are we going?” This is where Brienne’s quest comes to an end and it’s all about surviving herself. So yes, I think Brienne is now capable of actively reaching out for Jaime’s help. In her fever dreams she did it already. The timeline even parallels her trial with Cersei’s imprisonment and call for help. The timeline! Dear @Curled Finger, you asked me to take a look at yours on page 12 and all I can say is that I’m very content with it. Chronologization isn’t really my knack, so I used a tool that corresponds well with your depiction: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8 My idea of what happened during the five-day-gap is that: Following Brienne’s death, discord amongst the Brotherhood increases. Some openly oppose LHS’s decision to have people killed that defended them, just for their Lannister connection; that this stands against the idea of a Brotherhood without Banners. I can see Thoros sneaking out at nights, attempting to revive Brienne. Without success. He lacks the faith now. I can see LSH noticing this and loosing the taste in her mission. Part of the Brotherhood won’t stop hanging Lannisters and Freys anyway and the other part can have Brienne back, but true to her vows. So there’s nothing left she can do herself. The third night or so LSH passes her life to Brienne, who “awakes” next to a dead LSH, with Pod and Hyle still hanging in the trees. Brienne would think that Lem spared her own life to fulfill her promise to kill Jaime and that this hound is brutalized enough to kill his own leader. I can see Brienne burying the three corpses and go into hiding from Lem. But it is Thoros who comes looking for her, partly assuming that LSH’s disappearance has to do with Brienne. Brienne confronts him, thinking it was him who killed LSH after all. Thoros now knows for sure what had become of Brienne and LSH, but has to think about what it means for him, if Brienne is seen and LSH is lost. So he encourages Brienne’s fear of Lem and warns her to leave the RL which are likely to be turned into a slaughterhouse very soon, now with the Kingslayer and his army around. Brienne now feels the need to bring Jaime and herself out of danger. So she finds him, isolates him from the army and brings him to her hideout, sure that his care for Sansa expands to herself. Hiding then is not so easy. Winter is here and the BwB now not only looks for LSH but for Jaime too. No one looks for her, though and those wierwood caves can help Jaime and Brienne to come up with ideas for their future. But it’s Cersei’s decision to call the army back to KL for her safety, which changes the game for both of them. Jaime will be off to Highgarden for Tommen’s safety and Brienne will present herself to the BwB with something better than Jaime’s head: RR without bloodshed, the promise of the king’s peace and support from Highgarden. Truly it’s not so much what Brienne has to offer, but her pure existence that gains her the BwB’s company – out of horror. There was also one question from @Lady Dacey (ah, one of my favourites in the books!): Do you really believe he's saying what he means? That it's nothing to him what fate Brienne chooses? I don't think so. This is his chapter, we get insight on his thoughts... my interpretation was quite different. See, that’s the problem with Jaime and Brienne. Their low self-esteem makes it hard to get the proper meaning behind what the other said. Jaime compliments Brienne for wearing a dress that brings out her eyes and she says the dress is fake, it’s stuffed. Brienne compliments Jaime for being dressed as KG again and he says, well, I’m a cripple and I won’t prove worthy of this job. Those are the times, when being privileged as a reader feels frustrating. Take alone that The day had been a long one, and Brienne was tired. Even sitting up against the rock, with rain pattering softly all around her, she found her eyelids growing heavy. Twice she dozed. The second time she woke all at once, heart pounding, convinced that someone was looming over her. Her limbs were stiff, and her cloak had gotten tangled round her ankles. She kicked free of it and stood. Nimble Dick was curled against a rock, half-buried in wet, heavy sand, asleep. A dream. It was a dream. Perhaps she had made a mistake in abandoning Ser Creighton and Ser Illifer. They had seemed like honest men. Would that Jaime had come with me, she thought... but he was a knight of the Kingsguard, his rightful place was with his king. Besides, it was Renly that she wanted. I swore I would protect him, and I failed. Then I swore I would avenge him, and I failed at that as well. I ran off with Lady Catelyn instead, and failed her too. The wind had shifted, and the rain was running down her face. (Brienne IV, AFFC) and compare it to that “How is Cersei? As beautiful as ever?” “Radiant.” Fickle. “Golden.” False as fool’s gold. Last night he dreamed he’d found her fucking Moon Boy. He’d killed the fool and smashed his sister’s teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia. In his dreams Jaime always had two hands; one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other. “The sooner we are done with Riverrun, the sooner I’ll be back at Cersei’s side.” What Jaime would do then he did not know. He talked with his cousin for another hour before the Warden of the West finally took his leave. When he was gone, Jaime donned his gold hand and brown cloak to walk amongst the tents. If truth be told, he liked this life. He felt more comfortable amongst soldiers in the field than he ever had at court. And his men seemed comfortable with him as well. (Jaime V, AFFC) The point I tried to make is: How can someone mean what he or she said, if that someone doesn’t know about himself/ herself truly? And how then should another person succeed in understand the meaning of that someone’s words? Both Brienne and Jaime keep their Paynes around them; one who stumbles upon his own tongue, the other with no tongue at all. I think this tells us a lot about Brienne’s and Jaime’s need for communication. Jaime comes across as someone with a sharp tongue, when he really kept silent about the Mad King’s secret and lost his hand because of talking too much. This is the man who boasts to do things for love, but who can’t get out a straight answer why he cares for Brienne, when she asks him that… or he asks himself the same for that matter. As long Jaime doesn’t know the answer himself, Brienne would have a hard time to take in account how much she means to him. A pity, since in Harrenhal’s bathroom she defends Robert’s whole war with “Robert did all he did for love.”, so she likely understands one thing or another. Another thing, dear @Lady Dacey: You think “sword” starts Brienne’s career as a liar? IMO it wouldn’t be a lie; LSH herself named that sword Oathbreaker and can very well have that. And when “the girl” Jaime cares for the most is Brienne with “the hound” around, there’s also no lie. And there’s @Zapho who I want to answer: Someone upthread mentioned an oath Brienne swore to Jaime. When did that happen? I only recall their oaths to Lady Cat. Brienne swore to keep him safe while on the mission and to kill him should he try to betray his own oath. What did I miss? The oath Brienne swore to Jaime might be the one in the LC’s camber: To find the girl and keep her safe. Sworn by touching the hilt of her sword. Wow, Haus Berlin, that was a moving explanation. I'm honored to chat with you in your third language, Ser. I would not have known by your writing and use of English. It's very interesting to me what people from different backgrounds and cultures make of this phenomenon of Ice and Fire. It speaks to so many of us in so many different ways. Reading your thoughtful replies made feel like a small part of a coalition. We want understanding, not arms. Wow. I see I have misunderstood your position on all of this. There is nothing wrong with contrast. It makes our overall understanding much brighter. Jamie's internal monologue from his last three AFFC and only ADWD chapters really enlightened me to the depth of his struggles with himself. How easy can it be to become honorable? By your quotes, it is not easy in the least. Jamie has to constantly remind himself of the path he wants to be on: keep his vows. He repeatedly hears Tyrion's words about Cersei's cuckolding and betrayal just as he unconsciously looks for Brienne. Jamie was born to lead as heir to the wealthiest country in the realm. It could not have been the happiest or most secure growing up with Tywin pushing him to emulate Tywin and Cersei pulling him to be part of Cersei. Was there a time before his trip back to the Riverlands where Jamie was at peace with himself? Perhaps Tywin's influence is all we see in Jamie's brutal words to Edmure? Still I have to wonder who if anyone, held sway over Jamie's kindnesses and trust in Brienne? It always goes back to the hero's sword. Jamie considers Brienne a hero. It was your own post that pointed out how worried for Brienne Jamie was at Kings Landing. Once they're both out on quest he never worries about Brienne being in danger because he admires her as a hero. Through Brienne's POV we see how the trick worked and Brienne does everything she can to fulfill her oath as well as his. I don't think this is mere gratitude from Brienne. I think she admires him as a hero every bit as much as he does her. Lie or not, Brienne explicitly trusts Jamie to do the right thing for "the girl". Perhaps it is as you say and Brienne is "the girl". It doesn't matter, she still trusts him to do the right thing. This is reflected in Jamie's willingness to drop his own "mission" from HQ in Kings Landing to aid Brienne. There is a lovely sync between these friends. I say friends while thinking about Cersei's influence over Jamie for most of his life and muse now that Brienne may be his other half and true twin--in spirit. You ask: The point I tried to make is: How can someone mean what he or she said, if that someone doesn’t know about himself/ herself truly? I answer: Because we search for the answers to every mystery in each other. We must have standards to compare against and goals to strive for. Those standards and goals change with maturity. I don't believe anyone is wholly perfect but I believe they can be if they never stop trying to reach perfection. As we see in Jamie, it's often loss that propels us against different standards to different goals than those we had originally. As we see in Brienne, by most accounts a perfect knight, one learns by failure and experience. Brienne is exhalted in Jamie's eyes and Brienne is willing to take Jamie's yoke without qualm. The are 2 halves of the complete perfect knight. Brains and Brawn. Now we may be able to add honor. A clever and astute connection between our knights and their Paynes. Well done. A lovely post, Haus Berlin. You are a pleasure to read, Ser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 @CF, while you have been doing a mini-Jaime re-read, this thread inspired me to do a AFfC-based Brienne re-read. She has 8 POVs in AFfC and, so far, I have re-read only three on this go-around (chapters 4, 9 and 14 of the whole book). Some of the following observations are not directly on topic but may help to shed light on the questions at the core of this thread. A few things that have struck me so far: I think the Defiance of Duskendale may be a parallel for Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage at the inn at the crossroads. Ned would be Denys Darklyn, Catelyn would be the Myrish wife who is blamed for the whole catastrophe, Tyrion would be Aerys. Then the parallels start to be interesting. Ser Barriston single-handedly rescued Aerys, which would make Bronn the parallel figure in the contemporary story. Dontos Hollard is essentially the sole survivor of the Defiance of Duskendale, spared at the request of Ser Barristan and, later, at the request of Sansa Stark. Who is the sole survivor of the contemporary Stark "uprising"? As far as the characters know at this point in the story, Sansa is the sole surviving Stark. (Many people openly admit and others probably secretly know that Ramsay's bride, "Arya," is a convenient fake.) Is Ser Dontos supposed to be compared to Sansa? Has Sansa been turned from a knight into a fool as she survives the various threats to her safety in King's Landing and the Eyrie? Of course, her changing role isn't literally a change from knight to fool - maybe the parallel change is that she goes from being a highborn piece in the cyvasse game of arranged marriages to being a natural daughter of a lower-born lord. I can relate this back to the OP, luckily. As Brienne leaves the coastal road and turns toward Duskendale, she takes shelter in the ruins of a castle. She realizes from some remaining decorations on the stonework that this must have been the keep of House Hollard, and would have been the birthplace of Ser Dontos. Just as she makes this connection, she finally confronts Podrick Payne, who has been secretly following her. This "birth" of Pod at the birthplace of Ser Dontos might mean that we are supposed to compare Ser Dontos and Pod. We can also note that Dontos "saved" Sansa after Joffrey's death and Pod saved Tyrion's life. Another Pod/Dontos parallel is that Tywin spared young Pod after executing the knight Pod had served as squire. (The knight stole ham from the army's supply wagon and Pod ate some of it.) I think you could make a case that Ser Dontos and Pod are among the most loyal characters we have seen in the books, for what that's worth. After leaving the ruin, Brienne and Pod then proceed on an Alice-Through-the-Looking-Glass journey back along the route Brienne and Jaime and Ser Cleos Frey took when they left Maidenpool with the intent of reaching King's Landing. Brienne looks for a landmark stone wall that marked a memorable moment in the journey but finds there are lots of stone walls along the route and she can't pinpoint the one she wants. This might be a hint from the author that the two travelers have now begun an otherworldly journey where past, present and future are mingled - there is not one stone wall, there are intersecting, similar-looking stone walls. Brienne does a lot of recalling of old memories and meets some people from her past - Lord Tarly, Hyle Hunt, etc. But I suspect there is also a lot of foreshadowing in her travels. Another clue in Brienne's AFfC arc about the mingling of past, present and future - or death, something mysterious and magical, followed by rebirth - is that she breaks her fast one day on a drink containing three raw eggs. Usually characters who eat eggs for breakfast have three hard-boiled eggs, and they seem to represent the three heads of the god Trios. The Sailor's Wife tells Arya Stark that the first head of Trio, "devours the dying and the reborn emerge from the third, but she did not recall the purpose of the middle head." ( <-- From the wiki paraphrase, ADwD, Chapter 64.) I suspect the three mingled eggs all consumed at once is GRRM's way of telling us that Brienne is somehow transcending time or death during her quest. Ok. There's a ton of other stuff, but I'll zero in on a lye / lie passage, because that is most relevant to figuring out whether Brienne is lying to Jaime when she tells him that he needs to come with her or else The Hound will harm "the girl" who is the subject of her quest. Randall Tarly is passing judgment on various offenders in Maidenpool: He was followed by a haggard grey-faced whore, accused of giving the pox to four of Tarly's soldiers. "Wash out her private parts with lye and throw her in a dungeon," Tarly commanded. As the whore was dragged off sobbing, his lordship saw Brienne on the edge of the crowd, standing between Podrick and Ser Hyle. He frowned at her, but his eyes betrayed not a flicker of recognition. A sailor off the galleas came next. His accuser was an archer of Lord Mooton's garrison, with a bandaged hand and a salmon on his breast. "If it please m'lord, this bastid put his dagger through my hand. He said I was cheating him at dice." Lord Tarly took his gaze away from Brienne to consider the men before him. "Were you?" "No, m'lord. I never." "For theft, I will take a finger. Lie to me and I will hang you. Shall I ask to see these dice?" "The dice?" The archer looked to Mooton, but his lordship was gazing at the fishing boats. The bowman swallowed. "Might be I . . . them dice, they're lucky for me, 's true, but I . . ." Tarly had heard enough. "Take his little finger. He can choose which hand. A nail through the palm for the other." He stood. "We're done. March the rest of them back to the dungeon, I'll deal with them on the morrow." He turned to beckon Ser Hyle forward. Brienne followed. "My lord," she said, when she stood before him. She felt eight years old again. (AFfC, Brienne III) So the archer gets a relatively small punishment for cheating but he would have been hanged for lying. The prostitute of course acquired the pox from a client initially and is now punished with lye for passing along the disease to subsequent clients. Are we really seeing justice delivered fairly in Tarly's dealings with these smallfolk? We know that Tarly is not at all sympathetic with women subjected to sexual violence and harassment, as he blamed Brienne when he uncovered the high-stakes betting by Renly's bannermen to take her maidenhead by seduction or rape. Brienne does a lot of thinking in these chapters about cruel laughter and shocked stares by both smallfolk and high born people she has encountered all her life, and admits that she doesn't trust anyone any more. I'm guessing that this scene with Randall Tarly and his unjust judgments is intended to show the reader another reason that Brienne has little faith in most people. I can't quite put my little finger on whether this sense of alienation affects her willingness to lie to Jaime. In terms of foreshadowing, it's worth noting that there is a gallows next to Tarly's platform where four corpses are hanging. "One looked fresh, but the other three had plainly been there for some time." Could the three long-timers represent Brienne, Pod and Ser Hyle, strung up at the order of Lady Stoneheart? If so, the fourth, subsequent hanging might represent . . . Jaime? Are we supposed to compare the subjective judgment of Ser Randall with the judgment soon to be delivered by Lady Stoneheart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cridefea Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 On 4/1/2018 at 2:06 AM, Curled Finger said: Great old threads, huh? Did you see my very 1st post ever in 1 of them? No I haven't seen it! There are at least 7 threads, so maybe I haven't reached the right thread.... Anyway yes, it is really good when you find nice people and you are allowed to express yourself or to discuss your ideas ... On 4/1/2018 at 2:06 AM, Curled Finger said: I think the BWB may well have known about Brienne traveling and asking about Sansa. If not I think she was on their radar and they took her as a matter of convenience. Remember, the Inn is acting as an orphanage of sorts. Some folks think Willow and Gendry have set up house there in hopes of finding Arya. I can see the merit in that. Further, Gendry may have reported that Brienne was injured trying to fight the brutes off. It's pretty clear someone at or near the Inn ratted Brienne out. The BWB was coming for her injured or not. And, my clever friend, isn't it curious that Septon Meribald and Dog were both released whereas little Pod was not? All in all I think it's probable that the BWB was making plans for Jamie and Brienne fell into their hands. What do you think? Yes I'm sure they know Brienne was looking for Sansa. Maybe this is the reason why LSH wants to talk to her.... but I have the feeling I'm missing something here. If there is a plan, we have to think who Brienne met before. I was re-reading the quiet isle chapter and it seems to me that the Elder Brother tries very hard to send them at the Inn. He says to Brienne that Arya was seen alive there, for the last time. Quote "I am certain that the child was with Sandor Clegane at the inn beside the crossroads, the one old Masha Heddle used to keep, before the lions hanged her. I am certain they were on their way to Saltpans. Beyond that . . . no. I do not know where she is, or even if she lives. There is one thing I do know, however. The man you hunt is dead." Then it turned out that Meribald would never have led them there, because he thought it was closed: Quote "The smallfolk call it the crossroads inn. Elder Brother told me that two of Masha Heddle's nieces have opened it to trade once again." He raised his staff. "If the gods are good, that smoke rising beyond the hanged men will be from its chimneys." Maybe it's not important but he knows everything, included what Jaime did and his connection with Brienne. I was also wondering, if Meribald is not a collaborator of BwB, what will he do now? where will he go? on his way? or can he ask for help? Quiet Isle? And what about the Elder brother? I have to stop it now, because I'm sleepy XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 55 minutes ago, Cridefea said: No I haven't seen it! There are at least 7 threads, so maybe I haven't reached the right thread.... Anyway yes, it is really good when you find nice people and you are allowed to express yourself or to discuss your ideas ... Yes I'm sure they know Brienne was looking for Sansa. Maybe this is the reason why LSH wants to talk to her.... but I have the feeling I'm missing something here. If there is a plan, we have to think who Brienne met before. I was re-reading the quiet isle chapter and it seems to me that the Elder Brother tries very hard to send them at the Inn. He says to Brienne that Arya was seen alive there, for the last time. Then it turned out that Meribald would never have led them there, because he thought it was closed: Maybe it's not important but he knows everything, included what Jaime did and his connection with Brienne. I was also wondering, if Meribald is not a collaborator of BwB, what will he do now? where will he go? on his way? or can he ask for help? Quiet Isle? And what about the Elder brother? I have to stop it now, because I'm sleepy XD Hi Cridefea. I see you've given my impressions some thought. And your wheels are spinning. Mind you I have no proof, but there are far better memories at play here than yours truly, so perhaps there are quotes. Let's speculate, shall we? Thoros tells Arya that the BWB includes 2 septons and a dog or is that backward? Arya even asks incredulously about the dog or dogs. Coincidence? I think not. We have some persuasive evidence that Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, squire to Rhaegar Targaryan. There is a less persuasive theory that Elder Brother is Jonathor Darry, who you recall was a Kings Guard brother with Jamie under Aerys. It's safe to assume that Elder Brother is more than he appears with that cryptic statement about waiting for rubies to wash up on the Quiet Isle. There there is that convenient vow of silence some of the brothers observe not to mention a super secret entrance to the Quiet Isle. Oh heck yes something is going on there and I am willing to bet whatever it is has a lot to do with the BWB. It is always worth a reread of that chapter. Chances are very good Elder Brother nudged Brienne toward the Inn. This orphanage the Heddle girls are running is an underground of its own. I doubt the Inn is ever "open" for business as it serves to protect the children and possibly provide a cover for Gendry's work. It would appear to be closed to anyone who doesn't know what it is. Go with you initial impression, Elder Brother sent her there. Was Meribald complicit? No doubt. His annual tours of the Riverlands are a cover for passing information from his home base on the other side of the kingdom. You didn't miss a thing, Cridefea. That's my 2 cents--get some rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 8 hours ago, Seams said: @CF, while you have been doing a mini-Jaime re-read, this thread inspired me to do a AFfC-based Brienne re-read. She has 8 POVs in AFfC and, so far, I have re-read only three on this go-around (chapters 4, 9 and 14 of the whole book). Some of the following observations are not directly on topic but may help to shed light on the questions at the core of this thread. A few things that have struck me so far: I think the Defiance of Duskendale may be a parallel for Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage at the inn at the crossroads. Ned would be Denys Darklyn, Catelyn would be the Myrish wife who is blamed for the whole catastrophe, Tyrion would be Aerys. Then the parallels start to be interesting. Ser Barriston single-handedly rescued Aerys, which would make Bronn the parallel figure in the contemporary story. Dontos Hollard is essentially the sole survivor of the Defiance of Duskendale, spared at the request of Ser Barristan and, later, at the request of Sansa Stark. Who is the sole survivor of the contemporary Stark "uprising"? As far as the characters know at this point in the story, Sansa is the sole surviving Stark. (Many people openly admit and others probably secretly know that Ramsay's bride, "Arya," is a convenient fake.) Is Ser Dontos supposed to be compared to Sansa? Has Sansa been turned from a knight into a fool as she survives the various threats to her safety in King's Landing and the Eyrie? Of course, her changing role isn't literally a change from knight to fool - maybe the parallel change is that she goes from being a highborn piece in the cyvasse game of arranged marriages to being a natural daughter of a lower-born lord. I can relate this back to the OP, luckily. As Brienne leaves the coastal road and turns toward Duskendale, she takes shelter in the ruins of a castle. She realizes from some remaining decorations on the stonework that this must have been the keep of House Hollard, and would have been the birthplace of Ser Dontos. Just as she makes this connection, she finally confronts Podrick Payne, who has been secretly following her. This "birth" of Pod at the birthplace of Ser Dontos might mean that we are supposed to compare Ser Dontos and Pod. We can also note that Dontos "saved" Sansa after Joffrey's death and Pod saved Tyrion's life. Another Pod/Dontos parallel is that Tywin spared young Pod after executing the knight Pod had served as squire. (The knight stole ham from the army's supply wagon and Pod ate some of it.) I think you could make a case that Ser Dontos and Pod are among the most loyal characters we have seen in the books, for what that's worth. After leaving the ruin, Brienne and Pod then proceed on an Alice-Through-the-Looking-Glass journey back along the route Brienne and Jaime and Ser Cleos Frey took when they left Maidenpool with the intent of reaching King's Landing. Brienne looks for a landmark stone wall that marked a memorable moment in the journey but finds there are lots of stone walls along the route and she can't pinpoint the one she wants. This might be a hint from the author that the two travelers have now begun an otherworldly journey where past, present and future are mingled - there is not one stone wall, there are intersecting, similar-looking stone walls. Brienne does a lot of recalling of old memories and meets some people from her past - Lord Tarly, Hyle Hunt, etc. But I suspect there is also a lot of foreshadowing in her travels. Another clue in Brienne's AFfC arc about the mingling of past, present and future - or death, something mysterious and magical, followed by rebirth - is that she breaks her fast one day on a drink containing three raw eggs. Usually characters who eat eggs for breakfast have three hard-boiled eggs, and they seem to represent the three heads of the god Trios. The Sailor's Wife tells Arya Stark that the first head of Trio, "devours the dying and the reborn emerge from the third, but she did not recall the purpose of the middle head." ( <-- From the wiki paraphrase, ADwD, Chapter 64.) I suspect the three mingled eggs all consumed at once is GRRM's way of telling us that Brienne is somehow transcending time or death during her quest. Ok. There's a ton of other stuff, but I'll zero in on a lye / lie passage, because that is most relevant to figuring out whether Brienne is lying to Jaime when she tells him that he needs to come with her or else The Hound will harm "the girl" who is the subject of her quest. Randall Tarly is passing judgment on various offenders in Maidenpool: He was followed by a haggard grey-faced whore, accused of giving the pox to four of Tarly's soldiers. "Wash out her private parts with lye and throw her in a dungeon," Tarly commanded. As the whore was dragged off sobbing, his lordship saw Brienne on the edge of the crowd, standing between Podrick and Ser Hyle. He frowned at her, but his eyes betrayed not a flicker of recognition. A sailor off the galleas came next. His accuser was an archer of Lord Mooton's garrison, with a bandaged hand and a salmon on his breast. "If it please m'lord, this bastid put his dagger through my hand. He said I was cheating him at dice." Lord Tarly took his gaze away from Brienne to consider the men before him. "Were you?" "No, m'lord. I never." "For theft, I will take a finger. Lie to me and I will hang you. Shall I ask to see these dice?" "The dice?" The archer looked to Mooton, but his lordship was gazing at the fishing boats. The bowman swallowed. "Might be I . . . them dice, they're lucky for me, 's true, but I . . ." Tarly had heard enough. "Take his little finger. He can choose which hand. A nail through the palm for the other." He stood. "We're done. March the rest of them back to the dungeon, I'll deal with them on the morrow." He turned to beckon Ser Hyle forward. Brienne followed. "My lord," she said, when she stood before him. She felt eight years old again. (AFfC, Brienne III) So the archer gets a relatively small punishment for cheating but he would have been hanged for lying. The prostitute of course acquired the pox from a client initially and is now punished with lye for passing along the disease to subsequent clients. Are we really seeing justice delivered fairly in Tarly's dealings with these smallfolk? We know that Tarly is not at all sympathetic with women subjected to sexual violence and harassment, as he blamed Brienne when he uncovered the high-stakes betting by Renly's bannermen to take her maidenhead by seduction or rape. Brienne does a lot of thinking in these chapters about cruel laughter and shocked stares by both smallfolk and high born people she has encountered all her life, and admits that she doesn't trust anyone any more. I'm guessing that this scene with Randall Tarly and his unjust judgments is intended to show the reader another reason that Brienne has little faith in most people. I can't quite put my little finger on whether this sense of alienation affects her willingness to lie to Jaime. In terms of foreshadowing, it's worth noting that there is a gallows next to Tarly's platform where four corpses are hanging. "One looked fresh, but the other three had plainly been there for some time." Could the three long-timers represent Brienne, Pod and Ser Hyle, strung up at the order of Lady Stoneheart? If so, the fourth, subsequent hanging might represent . . . Jaime? Are we supposed to compare the subjective judgment of Ser Randall with the judgment soon to be delivered by Lady Stoneheart? Seams, this is some nice connecting. How in the world did you make this comparison? The lie/lye things you picked up on are really interesting. Randyll Tarly is as hard as LSH, agreed one does seem to reflect the other. Brienne's 2nd journey is personally transformative. I don't know about death in the literal sense, but it's clear Brienne experiences are stripping and building her for something much bigger. I'm thinking back to @Haus Berlin's doubt of Jamie and Brienne. Could it be that their current adventures are teaching them those elusive truths about themselves and each other. Could finding themselves be more important than finding Sansa? Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Just to add to the conspiracy Does anyone remember that after edmure enters RR there were 2 importante men at riverun that decided to go to the Wall? And that Edmure was present in robb's will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 11 minutes ago, divica said: Just to add to the conspiracy Does anyone remember that after edmure enters RR there were 2 importante men at riverun that decided to go to the Wall? And that Edmure was present in robb's will... That's very juicy! How do you see it play out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 1 minute ago, Curled Finger said: That's very juicy! How do you see it play out? Given that the 2 dudes are suposed to be very good swordsmen (1 was master of arms at rr and the other something similar) I think it makes sense that the blackfish sent them to the Wall to protect jon while he does something in the riverlands. Either rescuing hostages or going to the neck to plan with howland reed and the other northmen that were present at the signing of the will. I am really impressed how there are so many vídeos of people making all these conections that I never even thought of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 4 minutes ago, divica said: Given that the 2 dudes are suposed to be very good swordsmen (1 was master of arms at rr and the other something similar) I think it makes sense that the blackfish sent them to the Wall to protect jon while he does something in the riverlands. Either rescuing hostages or going to the neck to plan with howland reed and the other northmen that were present at the signing of the will. I am really impressed how there are so many vídeos of people making all these conections that I never even thought of. I love YouTube and you've got made a nice little theory here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 This thread only gets better! I hope to come back later for more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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