Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

[Nevets]

@Curled Finger, some more thoughts.

Elder Brother:  I doubt that the Elder Brother was trying to harm Brienne; he seems to be helping her.  The information about Arya is quite valuable to her, and he could have let her continue on her wild goose chase after the Hound.  And whatever his motives for sending them to the inn, Arya was last seen.  That much is true.

Brienne:  Brienne has not been openly searching for Sansa.  She is looking for her "sister", who matches Sansa's description.   It could be that BwB sympathizers picked up on it, like Shadrich (who isn't anybody interesting, by the way).

However, Brienne is well-provisioned, well-equipped, has a valuable, Valyrian Sword, and a great deal of money.  She is also traveling with Hyle Hunt, who is a household knight to Randyll Tarly, and may be known to the BwB for that fact.  All good reasons to be suspicious, and the letter from Tommen pretty much seals her fate.

Blackfish and Jon:  Blackfish indicates his distrust for Jon at his parley with Jaime.  I don't think he would do anything to help him, nor do I think Catelyn's impression of Jon has improved any.  II am curious if either of the two men going to the NW is familiar with the contents of Robb's Will.  If so, they could pass on that information to Jon.  It may also be that they didn't feel like joining the BwB, and saw the NW as the only realistic alternative.  Plus, it forced Jaime to detach some of his troops to escort them.

Orphans Inn:  The inn may well be closed to passing travelers.  Gendry tried to send them away, but was vetoed by Willow, who mentioned the food they had with them.  The prices quoted may have also been intended to dissuade them.  In any event, there were no other customers there.   I don't think it was intended as a trap, though.  It's just that the BwB became suspicious of Brienne once they arrived.

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Nevets said:

@Curled Finger, some more thoughts.

Elder Brother:  I doubt that the Elder Brother was trying to harm Brienne; he seems to be helping her.  The information about Arya is quite valuable to her, and he could have let her continue on her wild goose chase after the Hound.  And whatever his motives for sending them to the inn, Arya was last seen.  That much is true.

Brienne:  Brienne has not been openly searching for Sansa.  She is looking for her "sister", who matches Sansa's description.   It could be that BwB sympathizers picked up on it, like Shadrich (who isn't anybody interesting, by the way).

However, Brienne is well-provisioned, well-equipped, has a valuable, Valyrian Sword, and a great deal of money.  She is also traveling with Hyle Hunt, who is a household knight to Randyll Tarly, and may be known to the BwB for that fact.  All good reasons to be suspicious, and the letter from Tommen pretty much seals her fate.

Blackfish and Jon:  Blackfish indicates his distrust for Jon at his parley with Jaime.  I don't think he would do anything to help him, nor do I think Catelyn's impression of Jon has improved any.  II am curious if either of the two men going to the NW is familiar with the contents of Robb's Will.  If so, they could pass on that information to Jon.  It may also be that they didn't feel like joining the BwB, and saw the NW as the only realistic alternative.  Plus, it forced Jaime to detach some of his troops to escort them.

Orphans Inn:  The inn may well be closed to passing travelers.  Gendry tried to send them away, but was vetoed by Willow, who mentioned the food they had with them.  The prices quoted may have also been intended to dissuade them.  In any event, there were no other customers there.   I don't think it was intended as a trap, though.  It's just that the BwB became suspicious of Brienne once they arrived.

Hi Nevets, good to see you.   I read your post twice. I think overall you're right across the board.  I do, however, believe there is an enormous intelligence exchange at work and Brienne's capture was orchestrated.  I still have a very hard time reconciling the hard treatment Brienne receives with well, Brienne.   I'm not an LSH fan.   It's hard for me to imagine her making any sacrifice for anyone else.  I am a BWB fan which makes the organization we see in AFFC so hard to swallow.   I am shadow boxing, I know.  Still looking for that rapidly diminishing honor the BWB terrorized invaders in the Riverlands with.  A smarter band of conspirators working together for the good of all people.    Do you think that the Elder Brother is not working with the BWB?  Septon Meribald?   I'm still having a hard time swallowing the new and improved BWB and I want this to make sense.   It just doesn't yet.

[Nevets]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hi Nevets, good to see you.   I read your post twice. I think overall you're right across the board.  I do, however, believe there is an enormous intelligence exchange at work and Brienne's capture was orchestrated.  I still have a very hard time reconciling the hard treatment Brienne receives with well, Brienne.   I'm not an LSH fan.   It's hard for me to imagine her making any sacrifice for anyone else.  I am a BWB fan which makes the organization we see in AFFC so hard to swallow.   I am shadow boxing, I know.  Still looking for that rapidly diminishing honor the BWB terrorized invaders in the Riverlands with.  A smarter band of conspirators working together for the good of all people.    Do you think that the Elder Brother is not working with the BWB?  Septon Meribald?   I'm still having a hard time swallowing the new and improved BWB and I want this to make sense.   It just doesn't yet.

It's possible that Brienne had attracted attention with her search for Sansa, and that LSH mentioned her oath and the fact that she left with Jaime.  It's quite possible, even likely, that they were on the lookout for her.  Her arrival at the inn with Hyle Hunt in tow probably made them suspicious, as I mentioned above.  I doubt the Elder Brother sent her there deliberately to be captured.  It is essentially an orphanage, with lots of small children around.  If Brienne and the others offer resistance,, it could easily endanger the children.  Far better to send them someplace more isolated where they can be captured or interrogated without serious risk

I think that at this point the BwB is more of a new and debased BwB.  I wouldn't be susprised if they Elder Brother and Septon Meribald have had contact with the BwB, especially in the past.

[Cridefea]

25 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Orphans Inn:  The inn may well be closed to passing travelers.  Gendry tried to send them away, but was vetoed by Willow, who mentioned the food they had with them.  The prices quoted may have also been intended to dissuade them.  In any event, there were no other customers there.   I don't think it was intended as a trap, though.  It's just that the BwB became suspicious of Brienne once they arrived.

21 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hi Cridefea.   I see you've given my impressions some thought.  And your wheels are spinning.  Mind you I have no proof, but there are far better memories at play here than yours truly, so perhaps there are quotes.  Let's speculate, shall we? 

Thoros tells Arya that the BWB includes 2 septons and a dog or is that backward?  Arya even asks incredulously about the dog or dogs.   Coincidence?  I think not.  We have some persuasive evidence that Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, squire to Rhaegar Targaryan.  There is a less persuasive theory that Elder Brother is Jonathor Darry, who you recall was a Kings Guard brother with Jamie under Aerys.   It's safe to assume that Elder Brother is more than he appears with that cryptic statement about waiting for rubies to wash up on the Quiet Isle.  There there is that convenient vow of silence some of the brothers observe not to mention a super secret entrance to the Quiet Isle.   Oh heck yes something is going on there and I  am willing to bet whatever it is has a lot to do with the BWB.   It is always worth a reread of that chapter.   Chances are very good Elder Brother nudged Brienne toward the Inn.  This orphanage the Heddle girls are running is an underground of its own.  I doubt the Inn is ever "open" for business as it serves to protect the children and possibly provide a cover for Gendry's work.  It would appear to be closed to anyone who doesn't know what it is.  Go with you initial impression, Elder Brother sent her there.   Was Meribald complicit?  No doubt.  His annual tours of the Riverlands are a cover for passing information from his home base on the other side of the kingdom.  You didn't miss a thing, Cridefea.   That's my 2 cents--get some rest.  

Sorry I'm on my way to bed again XD I always login too late to think properly, speak a decent english (and probably italian too).....so just a quick clarification.

The Inn is a way to capture people, it's open when there is someone valueble to take to LSH. 

Quote

 "You fought bravely at the inn, they tell me. Lem should not have left the crossroads. He was told to stay close, hidden, to come at once if he saw smoke rising from the chimney . . . but when word reached him that the Mad Dog of Saltpans had been seen making his way north along the Green Fork, he took the bait. We have been hunting that lot for so long . . . 

and Meribal again:

Quote

"The smallfolk call it the crossroads inn. Elder Brother told me that two of Masha Heddle's nieces have opened it to trade once again." He raised his staff. "If the gods are good, that smoke rising beyond the hanged men will be from its chimneys."

And Jeyne:

Quote

"Guest right don't mean so much as it used to," said the girl. "Not since m'lady come back from the wedding. Some o' them swinging down by the river figured they was guests too."

I think there is another quote, maybe about Freys, but I can't find it right now....

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, Nevets said:

It's possible that Brienne had attracted attention with her search for Sansa, and that LSH mentioned her oath and the fact that she left with Jaime.  It's quite possible, even likely, that they were on the lookout for her.  Her arrival at the inn with Hyle Hunt in tow probably made them suspicious, as I mentioned above.  I doubt the Elder Brother sent her there deliberately to be captured.  It is essentially an orphanage, with lots of small children around.  If Brienne and the others offer resistance,, it could easily endanger the children.  Far better to send them someplace more isolated where they can be captured or interrogated without serious risk

I think that at this point the BwB is more of a new and debased BwB.  I wouldn't be susprised if they Elder Brother and Septon Meribald have had contact with the BwB, especially in the past.

There is a quote from Thoros where he tells Arya about members of the BWB and mentions 2 septons and a dog, I think.  I was researching another thing related to the BWB when I found this.  The BWB wasn't always this ugly thing we see it has become.   I hope  LSH's little group is the only corrupt part and that the remainder is intact, doing good work for the Riverlands.  When I say it's likely Elder Brother and Septon Meribald are involved with the BWB I mean the larger better part of the BWB, not LSH.  As you point out, Elder Brother's intelligence was true.   The Inn was the last place Arya was seen.   I wonder now if there is anyway EB or SM hear what's befallen Brienne and send someone to rescue them?  That's not fully baked yet, but there have got to be some good guys left in the Riverlands.  

I hit send without mentioning your Blackfish comments.   I'm trying to be open minded so pardon my careful words here.  We see Blackfish discount Jon to Jamie.   I don't know if BF is a great actor or not, but what I do know of him I tend to think the exchange was true to his feelings.  He's not in anything to help Jon.   Anyone but Jon.   But I don't know this absolutely.  I can't fathom LSH caring for Jon then or now nor can I imagine why she would change.   I encourage the conversation in hopes of getting to understand why some people think this.  I wish I could see it, but I don't.   I also can't see how Jon being King In The North (yawn) could help the Riverlands.   These are Cat's people.   He owes them nothing.   Of course, it wasn't that long ago that I couldn't understand how anyone could see Jon being KITN.   I have come around to at least understanding now, but not embracing it.   It's the same part of me that just can't accept Ice reforged or Gendry's legitimization.   I am trying, though. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 1/2/2018 at 11:17 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

@Lady Blizzardborn has a great thread from mid 2017 and in it she has a fantastic idea about how Oathkeeper and Widows Wail May come back “together”. 

I will see if I can find it. 

ETA: I’m still looking for that thread, but the main idea I wanted to share here was *maybe* Oathkeeper And Widows Wail come back to together as the red sword of heroes (plural), and this is Jaime and Brienne fighting together. Or, something like that. 

Thanks for the shout-out. I believe I listed that as a stretch-goal, as it were, to my dragonsteel theory. Which is linked in my sig. But if it's not there, then I'll go hunting and find the correct thread.

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

Sorry I'm on my way to bed again XD I always login too late to think properly, speak a decent english (and probably italian too).....so just a quick clarification.

The Inn is a way to capture people, it's open when there is someone valueble to take to LSH. 

and Meribal again:

And Jeyne:

I think there is another quote, maybe about Freys, but I can't find it right now....

Thanks Cridefea.   There is too much to discuss here without rest, Dear.   We will pick it up when you are rested! 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thanks for the shout-out. I believe I listed that as a stretch-goal, as it were, to my dragonsteel theory. Which is linked in my sig. But if it's not there, then I'll go hunting and find the correct thread.

It's always good to see you, Lady! 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

21 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's always good to see you, Lady! 

Thanks, CF. Always good to be back here.

[HexMachina]

What is so corrupt about Lady Stoneheart’s Brotherhood compared with the old brotherhood? It’s not like she targets those who aren’t criminals, or who the evidence for them being Lannister servants is pretty damning (we the reader know the truth of Brienne, but the evidence against her is pretty damning). She gives them a trial of sorts, one that is at least as fair as the ‘trial’ the Hound gets before Beric. Pod, I will grant, it’s unfair, because he is judged guilty by association with Tyrion and Brienne. They target Frey’s yes...but they are targeting perpetrators of the Ref Wedding. Is that a bad thing, really? Does it make them corrupt? They are also protecting orphans of the Riverlands so it’s not as though it’s an all consuming vengeance plot. 

And the pre-LSH Brotherhood did some awful stuff too. They were never bastions of honour and goodness, even if they did some good things for the smallfolk. Remember when Brienne was set up for ambush by them after being generous with her coin to the innkeepers and his wife, back in ASOS?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

What is so corrupt about Lady Stoneheart’s Brotherhood compared with the old brotherhood? It’s not like she targets those who aren’t criminals, or who the evidence for them being Lannister servants is pretty damning (we the reader know the truth of Brienne, but the evidence against her is pretty damning). She gives them a trial of sorts, one that is at least as fair as the ‘trial’ the Hound gets before Beric. Pod, I will grant, it’s unfair, because he is judged guilty by association with Tyrion and Brienne. They target Frey’s yes...but they are targeting perpetrators of the Ref Wedding. Is that a bad thing, really? Does it make them corrupt? They are also protecting orphans of the Riverlands so it’s not as though it’s an all consuming vengeance plot. 

And the pre-LSH Brotherhood did some awful stuff too. They were never bastions of honour and goodness, even if they did some good things for the smallfolk. Remember when Brienne was set up for ambush by them after being generous with her coin to the innkeepers and his wife, back in ASOS?

I don't think the BwB was a pure, honorable group pre-UnCat but for me the difference lies in the fact that she alone seems to be judging the person's guilt or innocence, while previously it was R'hllor (or at least that's what they believed) LSH isn't necessarily seeking out perpetrators of the RW as much as Frey's in general. Any Frey's. Don't get me wrong I think they are a vile group & don't blame her in the slightest for wanting to exterminate the whole house but it does ring louder as vengeance than justice. Couple that with hanging Ser Hyle & Pod & I think that's where some people arrive at the conclusion the BwB is more corrupt under LSH's command. 

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

What is so corrupt about Lady Stoneheart’s Brotherhood compared with the old brotherhood? It’s not like she targets those who aren’t criminals, or who the evidence for them being Lannister servants is pretty damning (we the reader know the truth of Brienne, but the evidence against her is pretty damning). She gives them a trial of sorts, one that is at least as fair as the ‘trial’ the Hound gets before Beric. Pod, I will grant, it’s unfair, because he is judged guilty by association with Tyrion and Brienne. They target Frey’s yes...but they are targeting perpetrators of the Ref Wedding. Is that a bad thing, really? Does it make them corrupt? They are also protecting orphans of the Riverlands so it’s not as though it’s an all consuming vengeance plot. 

And the pre-LSH Brotherhood did some awful stuff too. They were never bastions of honour and goodness, even if they did some good things for the smallfolk. Remember when Brienne was set up for ambush by them after being generous with her coin to the innkeepers and his wife, back in ASOS?

Hi Helena, welcome back!  Everything you stated is unquestionably true.  As I was explaining to Nevets, I know I get blocked into little ideological corners with my own feelings about characters and situations.  You remind us of the men in cages Arya sees and that was awful. That is the pre-LSH Brotherhood.  I am often blinded by the noble mission statement of the BWB as seen through Thoros' eyes.   It is Thoros' own words to Brienne that makes me believe there is a corruption within LSH's cell.  I just can't understand why he's with her at all.  Do you have any ideas? 

I may be clouded by LSH here.  In my defense I don't recall the old BWB hanging little boys.  Certainly Brienne does look tainted by the Lannisters if nothing else.  

Side note: You are considered an authority on many things here, Lady.   I would really appreciate your thoughts on Thoros' changed perceptions if you have time.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think the BwB was a pure, honorable group pre-UnCat but for me the difference lies in the fact that she alone seems to be judging the person's guilt or innocence, while previously it was R'hllor (or at least that's what they believed) LSH isn't necessarily seeking out perpetrators of the RW as much as Frey's in general. Any Frey's. Don't get me wrong I think they are a vile group & don't blame her in the slightest for wanting to exterminate the whole house but it does ring louder as vengeance than justice. Couple that with hanging Ser Hyle & Pod & I think that's where some people arrive at the conclusion the BwB is more corrupt under LSH's command. 

Ah Lyanna, you said that so much better than I could articulate.   I see the hanging of Pod bothers you as much as it bothers me.  Well, done, Lady.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah Lyanna, you said that so much better than I could articulate.   I see the hanging of Pod bothers you as much as it bothers me.  Well, done, Lady.  

I think you articulate wonderfully. Pod bothers me greatly & I'm like you. I get blocked into my own idea of who & what characters are in my own mind. It takes people like @HelenaExMachina to bring me back to reality sometimes. 

Whether or not the BwB is more corrupt Thoros doesn't like the direction they are going in & I'm also curious as to why he stays. Possibly something he has seen in his flames? Hopefully someone with more insight than me can come up with something better. 

[Curled Finger]

38 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think you articulate wonderfully. Pod bothers me greatly & I'm like you. I get blocked into my own idea of who & what characters are in my own mind. It takes people like @HelenaExMachina to bring me back to reality sometimes. 

Whether or not the BwB is more corrupt Thoros doesn't like the direction they are going in & I'm also curious as to why he stays. Possibly something he has seen in his flames? Hopefully someone with more insight than me can come up with something better. 

We share a block here.   All we can do is ask those with more experience in study to help us understand a bigger picture.   Thanks for adding your interest in Helena's take here.   

Ah Thoros' flames.  What could he be seeing to compel him to stay in a situation he's so unhappy with?  I don't think the entire BWB is more corrupt, only LSH's cell group.  Lem turned mad dog--or is he really?  You may consider Elder Brother, Blackfish and Septon Meribald to be "good guys" or at least characters you can trust.  We began here examining Brienne's ability to lie.   Through much conversation it's probable she may have in one way or another.  Whether touching her sword's hilt or with words outright, our valiant, honorable and noble knight has broken character.  I have to apply this to everything happening in the one place I believed real honor still existed.   Rather than be disappointed in Brienne perhaps we should view this as a triumph.   Deception is not necessarily a bad thing.  I keep going back to Bran and Hodor combined to be a great knight.  Jamie's desire to change is a break in character as may be Brienne's more cunning approach.  Somewhere in the middle I expect they will "combine" or become a real team or great knight.   If that makes any sense at all? 

[divica]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

We share a block here.   All we can do is ask those with more experience in study to help us understand a bigger picture.   Thanks for adding your interest in Helena's take here.   

Ah Thoros' flames.  What could he be seeing to compel him to stay in a situation he's so unhappy with?  I don't think the entire BWB is more corrupt, only LSH's cell group.  Lem turned mad dog--or is he really?  You may consider Elder Brother, Blackfish and Septon Meribald to be "good guys" or at least characters you can trust.  We began here examining Brienne's ability to lie.   Through much conversation it's probable she may have in one way or another.  Whether touching her sword's hilt or with words outright, our valiant, honorable and noble knight has broken character.  I have to apply this to everything happening in the one place I believed real honor still existed.   Rather than be disappointed in Brienne perhaps we should view this as a triumph.   Deception is not necessarily a bad thing.  I keep going back to Bran and Hodor combined to be a great knight.  Jamie's desire to change is a break in character as may be Brienne's more cunning approach.  Somewhere in the middle I expect they will "combine" or become a real team or great knight.   If that makes any sense at all? 

I think some comments ago someone proved that the reports about the hound are from the time rogue used the helmet. Lem seems to be inocent.

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

I think some comments ago someone proved that the reports about the hound are from the time rogue used the helmet. Lem seems to be inocent.

You're right.   We haven't seen Lem do anything specifically awful.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

We share a block here.   All we can do is ask those with more experience in study to help us understand a bigger picture.   Thanks for adding your interest in Helena's take here.   

Ah Thoros' flames.  What could he be seeing to compel him to stay in a situation he's so unhappy with?  I don't think the entire BWB is more corrupt, only LSH's cell group.  Lem turned mad dog--or is he really?  You may consider Elder Brother, Blackfish and Septon Meribald to be "good guys" or at least characters you can trust.  We began here examining Brienne's ability to lie.   Through much conversation it's probable she may have in one way or another.  Whether touching her sword's hilt or with words outright, our valiant, honorable and noble knight has broken character.  I have to apply this to everything happening in the one place I believed real honor still existed.   Rather than be disappointed in Brienne perhaps we should view this as a triumph.   Deception is not necessarily a bad thing.  I keep going back to Bran and Hodor combined to be a great knight.  Jamie's desire to change is a break in character as may be Brienne's more cunning approach.  Somewhere in the middle I expect they will "combine" or become a real team or great knight.   If that makes any sense at all? 

I can't begin to imagine what he could see in his flames. Maybe the only way to reach some desired conclusion is to let LSH's madness play out? I'm really grasping at straws here. 

As for our Maid of Tarth I refuse to believe she will break character to the point of dishonoring herself or Jaime. I think she has learned a hard lesson that poor Ned desperately needed to but never did. Sometimes there is honor in a lie. I love the idea of Jaime & Brienne becoming the "True Knight" & can see that happening. Brienne, sometimes unknowingly, has taught Jaime so much & now it's time for Jaime to teach Brienne a little. I hope desperately The Wench & The Kingslayer walk away from LSH as Brienne & Ser Jaime with both their heads & their honor in tact. 

[divica]

16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I can't begin to imagine what he could see in his flames. Maybe the only way to reach some desired conclusion is to let LSH's madness play out? I'm really grasping at straws here. 

Maybe he sees LSH is using the BwB for her agenda and it isn t really to protect the smallfolk nor to act as kingsmen...

[Curled Finger]

49 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I can't begin to imagine what he could see in his flames. Maybe the only way to reach some desired conclusion is to let LSH's madness play out? I'm really grasping at straws here. 

As for our Maid of Tarth I refuse to believe she will break character to the point of dishonoring herself or Jaime. I think she has learned a hard lesson that poor Ned desperately needed to but never did. Sometimes there is honor in a lie. I love the idea of Jaime & Brienne becoming the "True Knight" & can see that happening. Brienne, sometimes unknowingly, has taught Jaime so much & now it's time for Jaime to teach Brienne a little. I hope desperately The Wench & The Kingslayer walk away from LSH as Brienne & Ser Jaime with both their heads & their honor in tact. 

That's Ser Lady Brienne!   Block or no, we are totally thinking the same thing.