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Curled Finger

Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

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2017 is nearly over and it’s time to clean a few things up.  Yah, yah, come on TWOW.  Until then all we have is what’s been written and permitted for us to read.  Not watch, read.  Some things are worth discussing over and again.  Some things just bug us and some things are difficult to understand.   It’s good to be part of a community that is willing to help each other figure it all out.  

Jamie’s got 1 chapter in A Dance With Dragons and it’s a doozie.  If you recall, our intrepid Brienne finds Jamie at Pennytree. 

He posted sentries to see that no one left the confines of the village. He sent out scouts as well, to make certain no enemy took them unawares. It was near midnight when two came riding back with a woman they had taken captive. "She rode up bold as you please, m'lord, demanding words with you."

Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …"

"A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest."

"The girl. Have you found her?"

"I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

"Where is she?"

"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."  ADWD Jamie I

I bet I go back to this at least 4 times a year.   What’s going on here?   Has Brienne learned guile?   Is she leading Jamie into a trap?  Lots of questions with some equally good answers.   What never occurred to me before was that Brienne may have been telling the truth.  We know that Jamie means Sandor Clegane and Sansa Stark—but who could Brienne mean other than Lem in the Hound’s helm?  Who could this girl be? 

We know that Lem Lemmoncloak is wearing The Hound’s Helm and the person who previously wore it committed atrocities in the Salt Pans.  We are told repeated tales of crime and wanton violence perpetrated by both the Hound as well as various factions of the BWB.   Best as I could tell, the BWB under Lady Stoneheart’s management, is north of Hags Mire enroute to the Neck.  If this is true and it is only a day’s ride from Pennytree to this location it is only another day to the neck.   Would LSH just make camp and wait?  What could LSH possibly want in the North?   Isn’t her primary focus those pesky Freys?  You have to pass the Twins to get to the neck, but it doesn’t have to be a close pass—Could there be a plan here that we’ve not yet uncovered? 

Is it possible The Hound himself, Sandor, has made his presence known to Brienne and she is conspiring with him to thwart LSH?  There are a lot of moving parts in the Riverlands.   I think we all expect something big to happen there.   With your help we may be able to come up with a plausible alternate scenario here where Brienne is not lying to her best friend.  

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Well I'm guessing LSH is keeping Podrick hostage until Brienne brings back Jaime dead or alive. It may very well be that Brienne plans to tell Jaime what's happening with LSH once they leave together. It might be that LSH has men following Brienne from a distance in case she tries to warn Jaime.

Others have suspected that tBHwB will fall on Jaime and Brienne as soon as they are a safe distance away from the Lannister camps. Then Jaime will ask for Trail by Combat. When Jaime was Robb's prisoner him and Cat talked about what happened at KL with Brandon and Rickard Stark. Could this be a possible foreshadowing? Will Cat, even in her zombie state full of hate, grant Jaime or possibly Brienne a legit Trail by Combat?  Or will the Stoneheart just laugh at the request and kill him like Aerys did Rickard?

As to why Catelyn could be heading North? There are plenty of Freys up North now a days. Perhaps she's heard about the Ramsay-Arya Wedding? 

 

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Perhaps the Elder Brother sent the Grave Digger Clegane to follow Brienne and aid her on her quest to earn his penance a little while after Brienne left? And he only caught up with her after she left LSH. Could very well be possible. 

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12 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Perhaps the Elder Brother sent the Grave Digger Clegane to follow Brienne and aid her on her quest to earn his penance a little while after Brienne left? And he only caught up with her after she left LSH. Could very well be possible. 

Since it's just you and me here I will admit something like that has crossed my mind.  There is a lot of talk about The Hound on the Quiet Isle.  If that guy is him I could see him wanting to be involved in rescuing Sansa.  

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If Brienne is not lying, could Lem Lemmoncloak be holding the girl, who helped nurse Brienne back to health after her fight with Biter, against her? I'm not sure why he would hold her and not Poderick.  It's also possible that, if Sandor is the gravedigger and he did follow Brienne, Sandor has taken one of the orphan girls from the BWB in a similar way that he took Arya from them and is holding her against Brienne for some reason.

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25 minutes ago, Beren_One_Hand said:

If Brienne is not lying, could Lem Lemmoncloak be holding the girl, who helped nurse Brienne back to health after her fight with Biter, against her? I'm not sure why he would hold her and not Poderick.  It's also possible that, if Sandor is the gravedigger and he did follow Brienne, Sandor has taken one of the orphan girls from the BWB in a similar way that he took Arya from them and is holding her against Brienne for some reason.

Sure Lem could be acting bad dog and holding any girl.  So could the real Hound.  There you go, the real Hound could be doing his own thing out there.   I ask myself why she came up with this story of all the stories she could come up with.   So thanks, that was pretty good!

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I think the fake hound is definitely Lem....mainly because I believe the theory that Lem is Reagars old squire(I think his name is richard lonmouth, I'll try to find it but it's a n old one) and I think Jamie will recognize him, which could lead to ban interesting conversation....or not haha

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44 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

I think the fake hound is definitely Lem....mainly because I believe the theory that Lem is Reagars old squire(I think his name is richard lonmouth, I'll try to find it but it's a n old one) and I think Jamie will recognize him, which could lead to ban interesting conversation....or not haha

I think you're right.   The Lonmouth/Lemmoncloak idea has been around for a very long time.  If you haven't had the pleasure of listening to our friends on Radio Westeros give them a try.   If memory serves, Lady Gwen actually originated that one!  I'm really pleased to know that some of you are open to this encounter between Jamie & Brienne possibly being truthful.   I love this place sometimes. 

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Yo @Curled Finger, where might Brienne and Jaime's interaction at Pennytree take place in the time line?

If they have went off to find "Sansa" during the 48th chapter of a 72 chapter book, then where might the story pick up in TWOW? I suspect a few weeks may have gone by when we get a Jaime or Brienne POV, so their meeting with "The Hound" could perhaps be shown to us through the use of flashbacks. 

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14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

"My lord, you gave me a quest."

"The girl. Have you found her?"

"I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

 

I really don't see how this interaction could be truthful. The quest was for a Stark girl, and we're sure Brienne hasn't found Sansa or Arya. So this little piece of information that she gives Jaime cannot be "true". She knows Arya that's merried Bolton is feigned, and UnCat could attest that Willow or any other pretender isn't her daughter. For Brienne to be speaking the "truth" she must have been led on by LSH and the BWB to actually  think they have Sansa or Arya on custody. Would they do that to have the Kingslayer and Oathbreaker Jaime Lannister? Maybe. It's a possibility that she believes she's speaking the truth. 

But... I think it more likely she's lying and she knows it. Your post title doesn't say anything about truthfulness, it's about honor right? We've had the Lord Paramount of Honor and Duty (Eddard Stark) telling us on page that not all lies are without honor. I think Brienne believes bringing Jaime along will be good, and good enough to lie for. Maybe she thinks that if he confronts UnCat something good will come out of it. That they can convince her of their good intentions to honor the oath. Maybe there's something to do with Gendry, whom she wanted to go find before she was taken to be hanged? 

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."

What if "the girl" were the Lady herself? Maybe Lem has 'broken' further and gone rogue against the brotherhood, treating to kill the hangwoman? 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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So many interesting possibilities here... I tend to think that the story about Sandor having "the girl" - a Stark girl - is not true, only something Brienne chose to tell Jaime to get him to go w/ her w/o asking too many questions.

But what happens next? Will she tell Jaime the truth once they're away from prying ears? Or will she bring him to LSH and the BwB to try and negotiate Pod and Hunt's release? Will she try to reason w/ LSH? As naive as Brienne can be, I would think she's come to understand that reason is not going to work w/ LSH... 

There are so many variables... but of one thing I'm dead certain: Brienne will not betray Jaime, nor will she kill him. And if it comes to that, if she brings Jaime to LSH and is ordered to kill him, she won't do it. And no, I don't think her vows to Catelyn will matter at all. Firstly because when Brienne and Catelyn exchanged vows, Catelyn swore she'd never ask Brienne to dishonour herself, and to trap Jaime and kill him, would be dishonourable given the circumstances. Secondly, because Brienne made her vows to Catelyn, and LSH is not Catelyn.

“And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise.” As she clasped the other woman’s hands between her own, Catelyn could not help but smile. How many times did I watch Ned accept a man’s oath of service? She wondered what he would think if he could see her now”

I also think Jaime may end up leading the BwB... :wideeyed:

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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What's interesting to me is even with this lie Jaime would know he is riding to his death. The Hound is holding the girl & will kill her unless Brienne brings Jaime. Jaime knows he can't fight The Hound with one arm. Yet he comes anyway. Could the lie be told as a warning to Jaime? Letting him know he is riding to his possible death? 

Also interesting though is that Brienne could have told him the truth right there. Or she could have just told him she needed him to come with her. Maybe what she said is the truth in some manner or maybe some time has passed & things have occurred off page? I can't think of a way that Sandor Clegane could actually be holding Sansa though & I wouldn't think he would hold her hostage, threatening to kill her unless he gets Jaime. 

Could it be some sort of test? Maybe Brienne told LSH that Jaime would come to save her daughter's life. But there would be no way for LSH to know for certain what Brienne told Jaime to get him to come, which brings me back full circle to: She could have told Jaime the truth, so why the lie? Unless it isn't one. 

Ugh. Now my head hurts :ack:

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9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What's interesting to me is even with this lie Jaime would know he is riding to his death. The Hound is holding the girl & will kill her unless Brienne brings Jaime. Jaime knows he can't fight The Hound with one arm. Yet he comes anyway. Could the lie be told as a warning to Jaime? Letting him know he is riding to his possible death? 

Also interesting though is that Brienne could have told him the truth right there. Or she could have just told him she needed him to come with her. Maybe what she said is the truth in some manner or maybe some time has passed & things have occurred off page? I can't think of a way that Sandor Clegane could actually be holding Sansa though & I wouldn't think he would hold her hostage, threatening to kill her unless he gets Jaime. 

Could it be some sort of test? Maybe Brienne told LSH that Jaime would come to save her daughter's life. But there would be no way for LSH to know for certain what Brienne told Jaime to get him to come, which brings me back full circle to: She could have told Jaime the truth, so why the lie? Unless it isn't one. 

Ugh. Now my head hurts :ack:

Brienne doesn't get to talk to Jaime alone when she arrives; she's brought to him by two sentries:

ADwD, Jaime

“He posted sentries to see that no one left the confines of the village. He sent out scouts as well, to make certain no enemy took them unawares. It was near midnight when two came riding back with a woman they had taken captive. “She rode up bold as you please, m’lord, demanding words with you.”
Jaime scrambled to his feet. “My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon.” Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what’s happened to her face? “That bandage … you’ve been wounded …”
“A bite.” She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. “My lord, you gave me a quest.”
“The girl. Have you found her?”


“I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.
“Where is she?”
“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.”

 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What's interesting to me is even with this lie Jaime would know he is riding to his death. The Hound is holding the girl & will kill her unless Brienne brings Jaime. Jaime knows he can't fight The Hound with one arm. Yet he comes anyway. Could the lie be told as a warning to Jaime? Letting him know he is riding to his possible death? 

Also interesting though is that Brienne could have told him the truth right there. Or she could have just told him she needed him to come with her. Maybe what she said is the truth in some manner or maybe some time has passed & things have occurred off page? I can't think of a way that Sandor Clegane could actually be holding Sansa though & I wouldn't think he would hold her hostage, threatening to kill her unless he gets Jaime. 

Could it be some sort of test? Maybe Brienne told LSH that Jaime would come to save her daughter's life. But there would be no way for LSH to know for certain what Brienne told Jaime to get him to come, which brings me back full circle to: She could have told Jaime the truth, so why the lie? Unless it isn't one. 

Ugh. Now my head hurts :ack:

Were I Jaime, I would assume the Hound wanted a ransom, not to fight.

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It is an half truth... The "Hound" part is true, he's going to kill someone if Jaime don't go with Brienne alone. We know he's not Sandor, but technically Lem's The Hound now. And this is one of the reasons why I think the other part is a lie. It's her style. We know Brienne in AFfC, she really can't lie (and yes, it's something about honor too). So maybe an half truth it's easier for her to make up. I don't think it's a LSH or BwB's idea, it's too unbelievable. And here we are:

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What's interesting to me is even with this lie Jaime would know he is riding to his death. The Hound is holding the girl & will kill her unless Brienne brings Jaime. Jaime knows he can't fight The Hound with one arm. Yet he comes anyway. Could the lie be told as a warning to Jaime? Letting him know he is riding to his possible death? 

yes this is what i find really interesting. Jaime knows he can't fight the Hound, and probably he also knows it's a lie, but he goes.  We know he goes, even if we don't know what he answers her. He knows something is wrong with Brienne and he acts. There could be a time when she explains the truth, without the sentry to listen... but i don't think there will be time before leaving.

Quote
"Jaime is still in the riverlands, somewhere."
"Somewhere?" She did not like the sound of that.
"He took Raventree and accepted Lord Blackwood's surrender," said her uncle, "but on his way back to Riverrun he left his tail and went off with a woman."
"A woman?" Cersei stared at him, uncomprehending. "What woman? Why? Where did they go?"
"No one knows. We've had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar's daughter, Lady Brienne."
 - Cersei ADwD -

 

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8 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Were I Jaime, I would assume the Hound wanted a ransom, not to fight.

Yes, that's true. But there are strange rumors about the Hound and what he's doing. Jaime thinks he's not Sandor.

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7 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Yo @Curled Finger, where might Brienne and Jaime's interaction at Pennytree take place in the time line?

If they have went off to find "Sansa" during the 48th chapter of a 72 chapter book, then where might the story pick up in TWOW? I suspect a few weeks may have gone by when we get a Jaime or Brienne POV, so their meeting with "The Hound" could perhaps be shown to us through the use of flashbacks. 

Hola Leo!  I had to read your post a couple of times to get the cobwebs out of my mind.  Yep, leave it to you...You bring up an excellent point.  And ruined my entire day.   I'm thinking about these chapters and time lines and 1st thought was "He won't tell us".  OK now that I've been jump started today you're right.   They've gone (or not--we don't actually see them leave) on quest.  You know the timelines give me a headache.   

Ah the flashback.  I reckon we will get more of those than ever before in TWOW.   Preston Jacobs has a series about Jon's stabbing wherein he lays out a 70 day scenario for Jon's story at least, in ADWD.   I don't know if it's right or not or exactly where Pennytree occurs in this.   Thanks to your point here, I am very loosely guessing it would be end of the 1st month to 2 weeks into the 2nd month.  I believe Jamie lies down under a crescent moon, if that is of any help determining when.   Rather than me boring you with my musings about when how about you tell me what you think?  I don't think I know anyone more suited than you to make an imaginative guess.   

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6 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I really don't see how this interaction could be truthful. The quest was for a Stark girl, and we're sure Brienne hasn't found Sansa or Arya. So this little piece of information that she gives Jaime cannot be "true". She knows Arya that's merried Bolton is feigned, and UnCat could attest that Willow or any other pretender isn't her daughter. For Brienne to be speaking the "truth" she must have been led on by LS and the BWB to actually they have Sansa or Arya. Would they do that to have the Kingslayer and Oathbreaker Jaime Lannister? Maybe. It's a possibility that she believes she's speaking the truth. 

But... I think it more likely she's lying and she knows it. Your post title doesn't say anything about truthfulness, it's about honor right? We've had the Lord Paramount of Honor and Duty (Eddard Stark) telling us on page that not all lies are without honor. I think Brienne believes bringing Jaime along will be good, and good enough to lie for. Maybe she thinks that if he confronts UnCat something good will come out of it. That they can convince her of their good intentions to honor the oath. Maybe there's something to do with Gendry, whom she wanted to go find before she was taken to be hanged? 

What if "the girl" were the Lady herself? Maybe Lem has 'broken' further and gone rogue against the brotherhood, treating to kill the hangwoman? 

Welcome Lady, it's really good to be chatting with you so much these days.  No the title doesn't say the word "truth" in it and you've brought up some great points about truth and honor.  Perhaps you can chalk that up to my being a Brienne fan and forgive the wording.  Brienne hasn't got an ounce of guile in her person (at least her former person).   While she is enmeshed in this awful circumstance of literal do or die it's fairly clear that she's going to have to get herself dirty.   I pondered this.  Would she really lie to Jamie and lead him to danger?   No I can't see that, but I can see her thinking he would know how to fix the problem.   I'm thinking this "hound" and girl are different people making her lie less dire.   However, I'm not sold on it.  I lean toward this, but we also have a plethora of Hound gossip and we believe Brienne's come in contact with Sandor himself.   Could he be tracking her in hopes of finding Sansa?  

Of course, if Brienne is lying we have leaps and bounds of character development.  If she isn't lying entirely, we may have a rare good guy getting a break here.  As to "the girl"--heck yes I think it could be LSH herself and I can't wait to read Jamie's reaction to seeing her!  

Lady, if you have a moment go back and read your post.   It's clear you're thinking about this.   Every time we open ourselves to possibility the story becomes more amazing.  I look forward to more of your thoughts and possibilities.  

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I'll throw a crackpot into this discussion:

The Hound is Lem, true enough, but the girl is none other than Podrick Payne. Yes, Podrick is a girl, which they discover when trying to revive her from near-hanging.

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