Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

[Curled Finger]

13 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

My thanks. Alas, by the time I get around to sitting in my favorite chair and discussing my favorite book the conversation has progressed exponentially! I'll have to catch up...

No worries, my friend.  We are still discussing the OP and I'm still catching up with early comments.  Welcome back and Happy New Year!  

[Curled Finger]

Utilizing the Interactive GOT Map, The Lands of Ice and Fire, @kissdbyfire's excellent timeline device complete with DATES, A Search of Ice and Fire and of course, AFFC and ADWD, I believe I have a much better grip on where people are now.  I searched a few websites to see what the average speed a horse can travel is and settle on 30 miles per day for Jamie with his retinue and as much as 50 miles per day for Brienne alone.  (Of course, I also found a type of Arabian horse that runs an annual race to the tune of 100 miles in an average of 17 hours)  Recap...

LOCATIONS:

Jamie leaves KL by the Kings Road.   He and Uncle Kevan discuss Beric Dondarrion and Sandor Clegane. Stops at Hayford Castle for the night.  It then takes 6 days to reach Sow's Horn where he meets up with Bonifer Hastings and hears more news about The Hound.  Next stop Harrenhall.   

On 4/15 Jamie reaches Darry.  Strongboar swears to Lady Amerie he will return to kill The Hound for her.  Merritt Frey was found hung at Oldstones (between Fair Market south and Hag's Mire north). Black Walder Rivers has taken hounds out to track down Dondarrion, Thoros and a hooded woman.   Black Walder questions peasants at Hag's Mire and Fair Market.  He is told the BWB vanished into The Neck. 

4/20 Brienne is in the Salt Pans and makes her was to the Quiet Isle.

5/3  Brienne is attacked at the Crossroads Inn.

5/8  Jamie is near Riverrun--more news of the BWB.

5/9  Parlay with the Blackfish

5/10 Jamie threatens Edmure Tully and Ryman Frey is dismissed from command.  Blackfish disappears from Riverrun.

5/17  Brienne's trial

5/20  Jamie burns Cersei's letter 

5/23  Jamie leaves Raventree Hall and makes camp at Pennytree for the night.   Brienne shows up claiming the hound has the girl and Jamie must come with her alone.  

Some undisclosed time later Kevin tells Cersei that Jamie has disappeared into the Riverlands with a woman.  This is ADWD Cersei I.  

The BWB/LSH hideout is just north of the Red Fork between the Blue and Red Forks.   This is maybe 30 miles north of Pennytree.   It would only take Brienne a day to get from the hideout to Pennytree.   What's she been doing for 5 days? 

Daven mentions he laid a bridge across the Red Fork in AFFC.  

Certainly changes my head canon a bit.  Thoughts?  

[divica]

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Utilizing the Interactive GOT Map, The Lands of Ice and Fire, @kissdbyfire's excellent timeline device complete with DATES, A Search of Ice and Fire and of course, AFFC and ADWD, I believe I have a much better grip on where people are now.  I searched a few websites to see what the average speed a horse can travel is and settle on 30 miles per day for Jamie with his retinue and as much as 50 miles per day for Brienne alone.  (Of course, I also found a type of Arabian horse that runs an annual race to the tune of 100 miles in an average of 17 hours)  Recap...

LOCATIONS:

Jamie leaves KL by the Kings Road.   He and Uncle Kevan discuss Beric Dondarrion and Sandor Clegane. Stops at Hayford Castle for the night.  It then takes 6 days to reach Sow's Horn where he meets up with Bonifer Hastings and hears more news about The Hound.  Next stop Harrenhall.   

On 4/15 Jamie reaches Darry.  Strongboar swears to Lady Amerie he will return to kill The Hound for her.  Merritt Frey was found hung at Oldstones (between Fair Market south and Hag's Mire north). Black Walder Rivers has taken hounds out to track down Dondarrion, Thoros and a hooded woman.   Black Walder questions peasants at Hag's Mire and Fair Market.  He is told the BWB vanished into The Neck. 

4/20 Brienne is in the Salt Pans and makes her was to the Quiet Isle.

5/3  Brienne is attacked at the Crossroads Inn.

5/8  Jamie is near Riverrun--more news of the BWB.

5/9  Parlay with the Blackfish

5/10 Jamie threatens Edmure Tully and Ryman Frey is dismissed from command.  Blackfish disappears from Riverrun.

5/17  Brienne's trial

5/20  Jamie burns Cersei's letter 

5/23  Jamie leaves Raventree Hall and makes camp at Pennytree for the night.   Brienne shows up claiming the hound has the girl and Jamie must come with her alone.  

Some undisclosed time later Kevin tells Cersei that Jamie has disappeared into the Riverlands with a woman.  This is ADWD Cersei I.  

The BWB/LSH hideout is just north of the Red Fork between the Blue and Red Forks.   This is maybe 30 miles north of Pennytree.   It would only take Brienne a day to get from the hideout to Pennytree.   What's she been doing for 5 days? 

Daven mentions he laid a bridge across the Red Fork in AFFC.  

Certainly changes my head canon a bit.  Thoughts?  

I think the BwB was waiting for jamie to be on the road before sending brienne.

This would mean that they had 5 days to plan how to abduct jamie and that they were very close because Brienne met jamie the first night he was out right?

And again, we are more that 2 months behind the last events of ADwD! 

[Curled Finger]

17 hours ago, hiemal said:

Spitball: The Hound and Brienne are indeed conspiring and the Hound wants to destroy LSH while Brienne's oath to Lady Cat still drives her to save her. "Girl" is a stretch, but...

I come up with 5 days between Brienne's "trial" and her arrival at Pennytree--only 1 day south on horseback.  Daven Lannister has placed a bridge across the Red Fork, which I think could only expedite Brienne's journey.   What happened for 5 days?   Watching Jamie?  Making sure he's away from Riverrun?  Waiting for his tour to take him close enough to nab him?  

Somewhere in all of this we hear Daven I think, speak of night fires in the hills or north.   He speculates these fires are the BWB/outlaws sending messages to each other.  

Not only is a member of the BWB impersonating The Hound, they take turns impersonating Beric Dondarrion.  

I'm not sure about this girl or the Hound.   We got some pretty large support for Breinne's "Hound" being the impersonator, Lem.  But there is definite interest in this also being Sandor Clegane.  Would LSH allow Brienne to travel alone?  (Lots of support for that, too.)   I assume she's on horseback, but she could be walking.   It's over 600 miles from The Quiet Isle to Riverrun.   The Grave digger has a bum leg, but he's also got that mad as hell horse waiting to get out and resume his true identity.   I say Sandor or the Grave Digger has time to make this journey to track Brienne, if this is what happened.  Jamie thinks a lot about running into the Hound. 

I don't want Brienne to change at all because I like her as is.  Still, the attack on her was brutal then add hanging on top of it and I think there is a good chance she's been changed by the experiences.  She loves Pod if not Hyle.  She will do everything in her power to execute her mission.   She also loves Jamie at least a little I think.  I'm so confused about this girl--I'm really leaning toward a code, particularly in Brienne touching the hilt of her hero's sword.   

Your spitballs are always fun.   What do you make of Brienne's last words to Jamie? 

[Cridefea]

24 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Utilizing the Interactive GOT Map, The Lands of Ice and Fire, @kissdbyfire's excellent timeline device complete with DATES, A Search of Ice and Fire and of course, AFFC and ADWD, I believe I have a much better grip on where people are now.  I searched a few websites to see what the average speed a horse can travel is and settle on 30 miles per day for Jamie with his retinue and as much as 50 miles per day for Brienne alone.  (Of course, I also found a type of Arabian horse that runs an annual race to the tune of 100 miles in an average of 17 hours)  Recap...

LOCATIONS:

Jamie leaves KL by the Kings Road.   He and Uncle Kevan discuss Beric Dondarrion and Sandor Clegane. Stops at Hayford Castle for the night.  It then takes 6 days to reach Sow's Horn where he meets up with Bonifer Hastings and hears more news about The Hound.  Next stop Harrenhall.   

On 4/15 Jamie reaches Darry.  Strongboar swears to Lady Amerie he will return to kill The Hound for her.  Merritt Frey was found hung at Oldstones (between Fair Market south and Hag's Mire north). Black Walder Rivers has taken hounds out to track down Dondarrion, Thoros and a hooded woman.   Black Walder questions peasants at Hag's Mire and Fair Market.  He is told the BWB vanished into The Neck. 

4/20 Brienne is in the Salt Pans and makes her was to the Quiet Isle.

5/3  Brienne is attacked at the Crossroads Inn.

5/8  Jamie is near Riverrun--more news of the BWB.

5/9  Parlay with the Blackfish

5/10 Jamie threatens Edmure Tully and Ryman Frey is dismissed from command.  Blackfish disappears from Riverrun.

5/17  Brienne's trial

5/20  Jamie burns Cersei's letter 

5/23  Jamie leaves Raventree Hall and makes camp at Pennytree for the night.   Brienne shows up claiming the hound has the girl and Jamie must come with her alone.  

Some undisclosed time later Kevin tells Cersei that Jamie has disappeared into the Riverlands with a woman.  This is ADWD Cersei I.  

The BWB/LSH hideout is just north of the Red Fork between the Blue and Red Forks.   This is maybe 30 miles north of Pennytree.   It would only take Brienne a day to get from the hideout to Pennytree.   What's she been doing for 5 days? 

Daven mentions he laid a bridge across the Red Fork in AFFC.  

Certainly changes my head canon a bit.  Thoughts?  

I've been offline for a day and now I have 8 pages to read! 

Happy New Year everyone, btw!

Anyway Brienne+Jaime+timeline..... I really can't wait to answer, so here I am: 

In the timeline Kevin and Cersei's talk is dated 6/14 ....

[Curled Finger]

13 minutes ago, divica said:

I think the BwB was waiting for jamie to be on the road before sending brienne.

This would mean that they had 5 days to plan how to abduct jamie and that they were very close because Brienne met jamie the first night he was out right?

And again, we are more that 2 months behind the last events of ADwD! 

Jamie frequently mentions getting back to King's Landing.   I'm sure the BWB had their eyes on his every move.   If you look at the map Pennytree is almost exactly due south and not far from the hideout.  He can't actually get into the village and has to seep outside the walls.  

Jamie takes off to train with Illyn Payne every night.   His 1st night at Riverrun they actually went to an unnamed village a little east of Riverrun for privacy.   However, this stop at Pennytree does leave Jamie more accessible than he would be behind walls.  Remember how Lord Tytos offers to feed Jamie?   I think Lord Tytos is our man in this.   He's reporting on Jamie out his way.   

I was really focused on just this when rereading.   I'm not sure when Cersei gets the news about Jamie's disappearance.   Given the distances and Kevan's return to the Westerlands, it's got to be close to a month for her to get the news.  

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

I've been offline for a day and now I have 8 pages to read! 

Happy New Year everyone, btw!

Anyway Brienne+Jaime+timeline..... I really can't wait to answer, so here I am: 

In the timeline Kevin and Cersei's talk is dated 6/14 ....

3 weeks then SWEET!  Thanks Cridefea...I know no one enjoys a good timeline more than you.  Cant' wait to hear what you think.   Happy New Year from California to Italy, Dear! 

[divica]

13 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

I've been offline for a day and now I have 8 pages to read! 

Happy New Year everyone, btw!

Anyway Brienne+Jaime+timeline..... I really can't wait to answer, so here I am: 

In the timeline Kevin and Cersei's talk is dated 6/14 ....

@Curled Finger

This is HUGE! This proves jamie is mia for 3 weeks!

I think this proves that jamie is either travelling, a prisioner or assisting covertly in some mission (I don t know exactly know how...). However, I think that LSH wouldn t keep jamie prisioner several weeks and then send him to a wedding when it is convinent for her.

 

ps and keeping prisioners doesn t seem to be LSH style... Hoever jamie is a well of information and valuable hostage...

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, divica said:

@Curled Finger

This is HUGE! This proves jamie is mia for 3 weeks!

I think this proves that jamie is either travelling, a prisioner or assisting covertly in some mission (I don t know exactly know how...). However, I think that LSH wouldn t keep jamie prisioner several weeks and then send him to a wedding when it is convinent for her.

 

ps and keeping prisioners doesn t seem to be LSH style... Hoever jamie is a well of information and valuable hostage...

It also tells us Cersei and Kevan aren't aware of any major catastrophes occurring in the Riverlands.   No Red Wedding 2.0 at Riverrun.  No massacre at the Twins? No massive wolf attack on the Westerling party.  Nothing.  OK so if not these 3 scenarios I think most of us expect, what?  More systematic hangings?  A run North?  Where are the hostages from the Twins?  Seems to me if they know about The Hound and BWB in Kings Landing they would have heard something by now?  

Jamie is a wealth of information and extremely valuable hostage--but for what reason?  There is no war to speak of in the Riverlands, only a change in management from Tully to Lannister/Frey.   

The only other possible scenario I can come up with is someone--Brienne, Jamie or LSH--is dead?  

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It also tells us Cersei and Kevan aren't aware of any major catastrophes occurring in the Riverlands.   No Red Wedding 2.0 at Riverrun.  No massacre at the Twins? No massive wolf attack on the Westerling party.  Nothing.  OK so if not these 3 scenarios I think most of us expect, what?  More systematic hangings?  A run North?  Where are the hostages from the Twins?  Seems to me if they know about The Hound and BWB in Kings Landing they would have heard something by now?  

Another important thing you mentioned. If they wanted to rescue hostages. First, we have no news of the rw hostages in KL so this means they are either on the way or in the twins.

However we also have no news of the hostages being rescued! And the BwB is pretty close to the neck... This means that either walder is keeping it a secret or they simply aren t interested in saving hostages or they atacked the transport and jamie remained their captive.

And are 3 weeks enough for the wedding to happen?

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Jamie is a wealth of information and extremely valuable hostage--but for what reason?  There is no war to speak of in the Riverlands, only a change in management from Tully to Lannister/Frey.   

If the BwB wants to revolt against the freys/lannisters jamie is a useful hostage. If they hear from Aegon Jamie is also a good hostage ( he is the kingslayer). The problem for me is: what does the BwB want? How do they plan to protect the smallfolk? And can LSH really let jamie stay alive?

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

The only other possible scenario I can come up with is someone--Brienne, Jamie or LSH--is dead?  

The most probable to to die is jamie. But it would have a huge impact on Brienne and would probably make break her oath to cat...

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

My goodness!  What is a faceless man doing with the BwB?

This implies that one of the missions that Plague Face was given during the meeting where Arya serves was to connected to Beric and Catelyn and this is probably the 'agency' responsible for her resurrection.  Also why Lem is so vicious when he wears Sandor's helm.  It is like another face, containing everything vile about the Hound when he is nearly dead. 

Lady Stoneheart is described:

She is a servant of the Stranger. Silent sisters are sometimes referred to as the Stranger's wives^[2] or death's handmaidens.^[3]

It's an interesting twist and sheds some light on the story of the Sailor's Wife who goes to the Isle of the Gods in Braavos (The House of Black and White) to pray for the return of her dead husband.

Melisadres' explanation that objects that belonged to a dead person contain a memory of them certainly seems true in the case of the Hound's helm. 

Edit:  It's possible the BwB are going to Winterfell.  There may be more faceless men there:

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

 

Poisons. She understood then. Every evening after prayer the waif emptied a stone flagon into the waters of the black pool.

The waif and kindly man were not the only servants of the Many-Faced God. From time to time others would visit the House of Black and White. The fat fellow had fierce black eyes, a hook nose, and a wide mouth full of yellow teeth. The stern face never smiled; his eyes were pale, his lips full and dark. The handsome man had a beard of a different color every time she saw him, and a different nose, but he was never less than comely. Those three came most often, but there were others: the squinter, the lordling, the starved man. One time the fat fellow and the squinter came together. Umma sent Arya to pour for them. "When you are not pouring, you must stand as still as if you had been carved of stone," the kindly man told her. "Can you do that?"

 

A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

 

Little Walder pushed him stumbling past the long tables where the men of the garrison were eating. He could feel their eyes upon him. The best places, up near the dais, were occupied by Ramsay's favorites, the Bastard's Boys. Ben Bones, the old man who kept his lordship's beloved hunting hounds. Damon, called Damon Dance-for-Me, fair-haired and boyish. Grunt, who had lost his tongue for speaking carelessly in Lord Roose's hearing. Sour Alyn. Skinner. Yellow Dick. Farther down, below the salt, were others that Reek knew by sight if not by name: sworn swords and serjeants, soldiers and gaolers and torturers. But there were strangers too, faces he did not know. Some wrinkled their noses as he passed, whilst others laughed at the sight of him. Guests, Reek thought, his lordship's friends, and I am brought up to amuse them. A shiver of fear went through him.

At the high table the Bastard of Bolton sat in his lord father's seat, drinking from his father's cup. Two old men shared the high table with him, and Reek knew at a glance that both were lords. One was gaunt, with flinty eyes, a long white beard, and a face as hard as a winter frost. His jerkin was a ragged bearskin, worn and greasy. Underneath he wore a ringmail byrnie, even at table. The second lord was thin as well, but twisted where the first was straight. One of his shoulders was much higher than the other, and he stooped over his trencher like a vulture over carrion. His eyes were grey and greedy, his teeth yellow, his forked beard a tangle of snow and silver. Only a few wisps of white hair still clung to his spotted skull, but the cloak he wore was soft and fine, grey wool trimmed with black sable and fastened at the shoulder with a starburst wrought in beaten silver.

Holy Cow, @LynnS!  Just wow.  Now I'm not very good at making these sort of connections so you have to pardon my slow dawning here.   I get the similarities between some of the characters.  The man at Winterfell wearing the ringmail at the table reminds me of Roose at the Red Wedding!  I even get why a faceless man would be hired to be at Winterfell.   There is wealth still in the North and the Iron Bank is backing Stannis.  Right frickin on with your bad self on that one.  

Why the BWB though?  There is nothing left in the Riverlands to support that sort of commission?  I'm not getting the magical connection, either.  Well, LynnS.   It looks like you got stuck walking me through this fascinating idea.   Make me understand why the faceless men would be there with the BWB and how they figure into Beric/LSH's transfer of life fire?  

Your connections are beautiful.   I get that these folks could be those tricksy folks.  The idea alone is brilliant and I want to know how you got on this path.  

Yah, I know I bug.   Think of me as your very own 5 year-old asking for another story!  

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I come up with 5 days between Brienne's "trial" and her arrival at Pennytree--only 1 day south on horseback.  Daven Lannister has placed a bridge across the Red Fork, which I think could only expedite Brienne's journey.   What happened for 5 days?   Watching Jamie?  Making sure he's away from Riverrun?  Waiting for his tour to take him close enough to nab him?  

Somewhere in all of this we hear Daven I think, speak of night fires in the hills or north.   He speculates these fires are the BWB/outlaws sending messages to each other.  

Not only is a member of the BWB impersonating The Hound, they take turns impersonating Beric Dondarrion.  

I'm not sure about this girl or the Hound.   We got some pretty large support for Breinne's "Hound" being the impersonator, Lem.  But there is definite interest in this also being Sandor Clegane.  Would LSH allow Brienne to travel alone?  (Lots of support for that, too.)   I assume she's on horseback, but she could be walking.   It's over 600 miles from The Quiet Isle to Riverrun.   The Grave digger has a bum leg, but he's also got that mad as hell horse waiting to get out and resume his true identity.   I say Sandor or the Grave Digger has time to make this journey to track Brienne, if this is what happened.  Jamie thinks a lot about running into the Hound. 

I don't want Brienne to change at all because I like her as is.  Still, the attack on her was brutal then add hanging on top of it and I think there is a good chance she's been changed by the experiences.  She loves Pod if not Hyle.  She will do everything in her power to execute her mission.   She also loves Jamie at least a little I think.  I'm so confused about this girl--I'm really leaning toward a code, particularly in Brienne touching the hilt of her hero's sword.   

Your spitballs are always fun.   What do you make of Brienne's last words to Jamie? 

"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."  ADWD Jamie I

Hmmmmm- the million dollar question is where does Brienne see her loyalty, her duty, and her honor- with what remains of her sworn Lady Stark or her friend the Kingslayer. I hope, and even suspect, that she has chosen to honor life and has plans beyond leading Jaimie to his death. So- perhaps Brienne will forsake what remains of Catelyn Stark , making Oathkeeper into Oathbreaker, as LSH gurgled. In that case deception might be a necessary precursor?

Or the "her" refers to Podrick and the "Hound" to Lem.

[Curled Finger]

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I certainly don't wish several resurrections on poor Brienne after what they did to Beric but Brienne would make an excellent leader for the BwB. 

As for Cat she has always been sort of here nor there to me. I didn't particularly like her & some of her decisions irritated me to say the least but I didn't start really disliking her until she became LSH. Which I think is a character we are meant to dislike. 

I'm so hung up on what possible mission she may have for Jaime that it is driving me nuts! Lol 

I don't think Brienne is changed but I think she is learning some hard truths. Much the same as Sansa had to regarding "true" knights. I really like the idea that another poster (I can't remember who) put forth about it being very ironic that Brienne is lying to Jaime & walking him into his potential death while the usually wary Jaime takes her at her word with no question. I don't think Brienne will let Jaime go down without a fight & certainly don't think her arc will take her to where Jaime is in the beginning of the series but rather they will meet somewhere in the middle.

If you're not still dancing and reveling we've got our timeline pretty straight now.  We are discussing missions.   @Cridefea and @divica determine 3 weeks from Brienne's arrival at Pennytree to Cersei learning Jamie disappeared with a woman.   Neither Kevan nor Cersei mention another thing about the Riverlands.   No bloody weddings or murdered Walder Frey or word of hostages headed north or south.   Nothing.   So you're absolutely right to home in on Jamie's mission.   By the same token we don't hear that Jamie is dead or that the BWB has been captured so something's going on.  

I'm so confused about Brienne's mindset.  She's been plenty traumatized, but she's also very strong willed.  I don't know.   And that's driving me nuts!   

[Curled Finger]

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh brilliant! It's going to be so incredibly helpful, can't wait to see what you come up w/.

That timeline I linked above has a travel speed calculator or chart or whatever. It's quite neat b/c they give you a few different options, like group on foot/horseback travelling slowly/ fast etc. 

Yeah, I want all these answers too! And I especially the Blackfish ... has he found (or was found by) the BwB or has he gone farther North and joined Mormont or Glover? Gods, so many questions, so many blanks that need to be filled...

Here's to getting all most of the answers in 2028! Happy New Year everyone! 

It's ready when you are! 

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Holy Cow, @LynnS!  Just wo

LOL!  This opens up a whole bunch of questions for me.  The man with plague face is the same man Arya sees at the FM conference and he seems important to the brotherhood hierarchy in some way.  He's is the one who questions Arya about who she is.

I don't think his appearance with the BwB is about a commission.  They serve Him of Many Faces and this has more to do with the conflict between ice and fire than a hit job.  So the purpose of the BwB is aligned with the FM agenda at this point.  This could be why LSH has replaced Beric and why Thoros is so ambivalent.  It wasn't his god who resurrected Beric in the first place.  LSH is a servant of the Stranger now and Brienne's comment to Gendry that these strangers are friends of no one (the faceless god) tells us that we are in the company of at least one faceless man.  

This may also explain why Lem is so brutal when he wears Sandor's helm.  It is essentially another kind of mask which contains the memory of Sandor's most brutal self.  As the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle; he has been shorn of that part of himself.   Recall that Arya has memories of the faces she wears.  

There may be some purpose for the Faceless Men of BwB to move to Winterfell and meet up with more of their number there.  The Shrouded Man sounds like a FM when he meets up with Theon and names him Kinslayer. It's reminiscent of the Alchemist asking Pate if he knows who he is yet.

From Theon's description of the strangers at Winterfell; at least two of them could be FM:  'yellow teeth' and 'forked beard'.  The man with the crooked nose is the Alchemist, now at the Citadel disguised as Pate. 

There is a larger plot at work here that involves the FM.  How Brienne will face this challenge is a big question. I doubt she will be allowed to put an end the LSH or the Hound if Him of Many Faces is involved .

Edit:  The raison d'etre of the brotherhood has changed.  They have become a plague on the surrounding population.

[divica]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Holy Cow, @LynnS!  Just wow.  Now I'm not very good at making these sort of connections so you have to pardon my slow dawning here.   I get the similarities between some of the characters.  The man at Winterfell wearing the ringmail at the table reminds me of Roose at the Red Wedding!  I even get why a faceless man would be hired to be at Winterfell.   There is wealth still in the North and the Iron Bank is backing Stannis.  Right frickin on with your bad self on that one.  

Why the BWB though?  There is nothing left in the Riverlands to support that sort of commission?  I'm not getting the magical connection, either.  Well, LynnS.   It looks like you got stuck walking me through this fascinating idea.   Make me understand why the faceless men would be there with the BWB and how they figure into Beric/LSH's transfer of life fire?  

Your connections are beautiful.   I get that these folks could be those tricksy folks.  The idea alone is brilliant and I want to know how you got on this path.  

Yah, I know I bug.   Think of me as your very own 5 year-old asking for another story!  

I won t comment on them being responsable for ressurecting cat because I don t really agree. I think that it was all beric because he she was ned's wife.

However, I think we have the answer for the rest in arya's povs. The faceless men do a lot of spying in braavos. So why wouldn t they do it in the rest of the world?

They need to know the state of the world and have contacts in order to conduct their assassinations and whatever plots the house of the undying might have. So it is quite funny and interesting to have random faceless men in several places spying for the house of undying.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Everytime I think about Jaime I imagine him staring at his blank page in that white book. At the time, it felt as if it were a part of Jaime's personality coming to the fore. Of all his exploits and infamous endeavours it was the blank page that bothered him most. During his conversations with Cat, he seemed resigned to the Kingslayer tag and discussed his deeds with a somewhat refreshing openness.  

Then, in chapter 72 of asos, Jaime really sheds some light on things. A lot happens. He has that falling out with Cersei and it's clear that the two of them are no longer one. He's pushing to make their relationship known and she essentially rejects it on the grounds that they are not Targaryens. He's given up on his father too. We start to see Jaime as his own man. He gives Brienne the quest to 'return Sansa to safety'... ambiguous enough? I mean I don't want to go too far into it but would you describe LSH, the bwb or even the Riverlands in general as 'a safe place'? Where in Westeros could be considered safe? This may give us an insight into what Brienne thinks is best for Sansa as it's her interpretation of the vow that will matter. If it's 'safer' for Sansa to remain where she is then suffice to say her quest was over before it begun.

He then moves on to his white book. Another big insight into Jaime. He records his capture, release, recapture and maiming and safe escort by Brienne to KL. He then looks at the blank space remaining on his page and tells himself that he can fill it with 'whatever he chose'....  As of now he can add the successful negotiations of surrender but compare that to the exploits of Dayne and Selmy and I don't think Jaime would be satisfied. I think he may be interested in becoming the man who defeated 'The Hound'. I think Sandor would eat him for breakfast. But some clown in his helm would suffice. 

I cannot see Martin taking this opportunity away from Jaime just yet. It is within his MO to subvert the expectation, but it would be a poor choice and very anti-climactic to remove him from the game when he has this 'blank space' to fill. And overall, the version of Brienne we've come to know and love is a simple one. Most, if not all of her actions are motivated by honor and chivalry. I just can't see her going through with something malevolent, even if Pod's life is at stake.

In short, I don't think Brienne would lure a cripple to their death to save her own skin. I think it's because she wants to keep her oath to Jaime (hence the touching of the pommel during their meet) who - unlike the others she's sworn to - is actually alive. And she wants to keep Pod alive. So she has her work cut out for her - that's for sure. And that brings me back to Jaime's conversation with Cat whilst serving time as her prisoner. 
 

Quote

"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other."

No matter what you do....

[Curled Finger]

16 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think it is possible that LSH is keeping Jaime around for some sort of mission, but I can't think what that would be.  I doubt he would go along with anything that would result in loss of Lannister lives, or their men (he is a Lannister, after all).  He's not that interested in his own life, or Brienne's.  And I doubt Brienne would do that either.  That eliminates infiltrating Riverrun for Red Wedding 2.0.  

It is possible she might be interested in using Jaime to rescue Edmure and/or Jayne.  The main problem with that is it has only been a few days since they left for Casterly Rock,so timing is an issue.  In that case, they might hope that Jaime would be willing and able to trick Forley Prester into turning them over to him.  Might work, might not.  It's the only thing I can think of.  I just now thought of it, which is why I didn't mention it earlier.

It's possible they could be headed north after fArya.  It's possible they are aware of the betrothal, and I seriously doubt anyone would have been able to get a good enough look at her to tell it wasn't Arya.  But the BwB is mostly Riverlanders who would have no interest in going North.  While they might have sent someone to Winterfell, it is unlikely that person could communicate considering the distance and the weather.  Given Catelyn's demonstrated distrust and hostility towards Jon, it is doubtful they would have any interest in the NW or the Wall.

Podrick a girl?  Nah.  Given the relaxed attitude towards nudity, especially in private and semi-private settings, I don't think he could have hidden that fact from Tyrion and Brienne, both POV's.  And we've been given no hint, like we have about Alleras. 

I just reread Jamie's last 3 chapters from Feast.   He thinks about Brienne a lot.  He slaps Red Ronnet in the mouth for calling Brienne a name.  He even thinks about traveling the same places she may have before him.   I think her life matters to him far more than his own.  

You couldn't be more right about Jamie's mission, whatever it is.   We've got our timeline now.   We know Jamie disappears and Cersei hears nothing else about the Riverlands.   Could be Kevan coming in from the Westerlands just doesn't know yet...but it is strange.  I'm not sure what route the hostages going to the Westerlands is traveling, but if they are headed in from the north there is another piece of intel that simply may not have reached Kevan or Cersei.  However, that is an EXCELLENT mission idea!  Jamie would certainly be most useful in that. 

I'm waiting for Pod's gender reveal either way.  Hehehehehehe...

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, divica said:

I won t comment on them being responsable for ressurecting cat because I don t really agree. I think that it was all beric because he she was ned's wife.

I think plague faces' appearance among the BwB compelled Beric to give the kiss to LSH.  It's a death for life exchange.  I've always questioned how Thoros could raise Beric in the cave of brotherhood when the GoHH tells Thoros that he has no power in that place but he might be able to recognize a FM when he sees one. 

[divica]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think plague faces' appearance among the BwB compelled Beric to give the kiss to LSH.  It's a death for life exchange.  I've always questioned how Thoros could raise Beric in the cave of brotherhood when the GoHH tells Thoros that he has no power in that place. 

Maybe. But before thinking outside the box I think we need to think inside the box. 

Ned is known for being good and honorable  which might mean this new beric idolizes him. Then we have the northern begging thoros to revive cat. As thoros refused beric might have decided to sacrífice himself because he could change what happened to ned stark's wife and right a wrong.

 

And as I said earlier, doesn t it sound very belivable that the faceless men spy several places and people in order to have contacts, find secrets and keep in contact with what happens in the world? They do it in Braavos.

And it could even become one of the easter eggs in grrm books... find the hidden faceles spy in each place lol