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Curled Finger

Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

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5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So many interesting possibilities here... I tend to think that the story about Sandor having "the girl" - a Stark girl - is not true, only something Brienne chose to tell Jaime to get him to go w/ her w/o asking too many questions.

But what happens next? Will she tell Jaime the truth once they're away from prying ears? Or will she bring him to LSH and the BwB to try and negotiate Pod and Hunt's release? Will she try to reason w/ LSH? As naive as Brienne can be, I would think she's come to understand that reason is not going to work w/ LSH... 

There are so many variables... but of one thing I'm dead certain: Brienne will not betray Jaime, nor will she kill him. And if it comes to that, if she brings Jaime to LSH and is ordered to kill him, she won't do it. And no, I don't think her vows to Catelyn will matter at all. Firstly because when Brienne and Catelyn exchanged vows, Catelyn swore she'd never ask Brienne to dishonour herself, and to trap Jaime and kill him, would be dishonourable given the circumstances. Secondly, because Brienne made her vows to Catelyn, and LSH is not Catelyn.

“And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise.” As she clasped the other woman’s hands between her own, Catelyn could not help but smile. How many times did I watch Ned accept a man’s oath of service? She wondered what he would think if he could see her now”

I also think Jaime may end up leading the BwB... :wideeyed:

 

Ah, my sister, these are the same things I considered when reading this.  If I've learned 1 thing and nothing else, it is GRRM WILL TRICK YOU.   It's his thing.  

Clearly we are being led to believe Brienne is lying and leading Jamie into a trap.  We don't see Brienne leave the company of LSH.   We don't know if Pod and Hyle are even alive.  What we do know is there is a whole LOT of talk about the Hound and Brienne is on quest to keep JAMIE"S VOW to Cat.   (Yes, I'm skirting Brienne's own vow here)

I've almost got this one visualized.  But that is the tale of Brienne and Jamie (and the Hound and the BWB) that I know and want.   That doesn't make it wrong; it's only how I interpret things.  This is a perfect vehicle for reintroducing The Hound to the story and eliminating a POV.  I'm sure either Jamie or Brienne will die here...but not for long and Jamie taking over leadership of this faction of the BWB is nearly palpable.   

You just rock on with your bad self @kissdbyfire--you made my day!

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9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah, my sister, these are the same things I considered when reading this.  If I've learned 1 thing and nothing else, it is GRRM WILL TRICK YOU.   It's his thing.  

Clearly we are being led to believe Brienne is lying and leading Jamie into a trap.  We don't see Brienne leave the company of LSH.   We don't know if Pod and Hyle are even alive.  What we do know is there is a whole LOT of talk about the Hound and Brienne is on quest to keep JAMIE"S VOW to Cat.   (Yes, I'm skirting Brienne's own vow here)

I've almost got this one visualized.  But that is the tale of Brienne and Jamie (and the Hound and the BWB) that I know and want.   That doesn't make it wrong; it's only how I interpret things.  This is a perfect vehicle for reintroducing The Hound to the story and eliminating a POV.  I'm sure either Jamie or Brienne will die here...but not for long and Jamie taking over leadership of this faction of the BWB is nearly palpable.   

You just rock on with your bad self @kissdbyfire--you made my day!

One other possibility: together J & B kill LSH and whomever tries to defend her/it.

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What's interesting to me is even with this lie Jaime would know he is riding to his death. The Hound is holding the girl & will kill her unless Brienne brings Jaime. Jaime knows he can't fight The Hound with one arm. Yet he comes anyway. Could the lie be told as a warning to Jaime? Letting him know he is riding to his possible death? 

Also interesting though is that Brienne could have told him the truth right there. Or she could have just told him she needed him to come with her. Maybe what she said is the truth in some manner or maybe some time has passed & things have occurred off page? I can't think of a way that Sandor Clegane could actually be holding Sansa though & I wouldn't think he would hold her hostage, threatening to kill her unless he gets Jaime. 

Could it be some sort of test? Maybe Brienne told LSH that Jaime would come to save her daughter's life. But there would be no way for LSH to know for certain what Brienne told Jaime to get him to come, which brings me back full circle to: She could have told Jaime the truth, so why the lie? Unless it isn't one. 

Ugh. Now my head hurts :ack:

Welcome Lady and thanks for joining our headache here.  Does Jamie really think he's riding to his death?   He knows Brienne is a bad ass--he gave her a hero's sword!   That's sort of the other side in my thinking Brienne would know Jamie would know what to do.   He would trust her to kick butt.  Still, I hadn't considered "the lie" as a warning.   Excellent thought.

It's clear to me that Jamie has had a serious change of heart and that he's done everything he possibly can to keep his vow to Cat.   What bothers me is Brienne lying to her best friend.   That could be where it's going, but my absolute faith in Brienne won't let me accept that.  You're right about Sandor not holding Sansa or Arya hostage.   He wouldn't do that.   I don't think either of the Stark girls are here.  It's another girl.  Brienne only says "the girl" and allows Jamie to believe it's Sansa.  Of course, we are dealing with 2 different "Hounds" here, too.   Lem seems to be enjoying wearing that helm.   This is positively twisted with potential. Break out the Excedrin.   

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14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

"A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest.

Touching her sword seems a curious gesture.  A tell, perhaps that she is preparing to draw it.  Some comparisons:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VII

"Ser," Lancel said stiffly. He touched his sword, perhaps to remind Tyrion that he wore one. "Have a care how you speak to me, Imp." Doubtless he meant to sound threatening, but that absurd wisp of a mustache ruined the effect. 

A Storm of Swords - Arya I

She would make much better time on her own, Arya knew, but she could not leave them. They were her pack, her friends, the only living friends that remained to her, and if not for her they would still be safe at Harrenhal, Gendry sweating at his forge and Hot Pie in the kitchens. If the Mummers catch us, I'll tell them that I'm Ned Stark's daughter and sister to the King in the North. I'll command them to take me to my brother, and to do no harm to Hot Pie and Gendry. They might not believe her, though, and even if they did . . . Lord Bolton was her brother's bannerman, but he frightened her all the same. I won't let them take us, she vowed silently, reaching back over her shoulder to touch the hilt of the sword that Gendry had stolen for her. I won't.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"I insist. A true knight must defend the gentler sex."

She touched her sword hilt. "This will defend me, ser." 

"A sword is only as good as the man who wields it."

A Feast for Crows - Samwell III

Sam wanted to run, but if he did was like to trip over his own swordbelt. Do not touch your sword, he told himself. Even a finger on the hilt might be enough for one or the other of the bravos to take as a challenge. He tried to think of words that might appease them. "I'm not—" was all he managed. 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion V

The Shy Maid moved through the fog like a blind man groping his way down an unfamiliar hall.

Septa Lemore was praying. The mists muffled the sound of her voice, making it seem small and hushed. Griff paced the deck, mail clinking softly beneath his wolfskin cloak. From time to time he touched his sword, as if to make certain that it still hung at his side. Rolly Duckfield was pushing at the starboard pole, Yandry at the larboard. Ysilla had the tiller. 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion XII

"After you sign," said Inkpots, sharpening a quill.

Kasporio the Cunning touched his sword hilt. "If you would like to start the bleeding now, I will happ'ly oblige you." 

"How kind of you to offer," said Tyrion. "I think not."

 

I'd say that Brienne is preparing for violence.  The gesture does draw Jaime's attention and she reminds him that she made a promise to him.  I'm guessing that she will defend Jaime with the sword he gave her, as much as she would defend Arya or Sansa with their father's own sword.  Above all else, Brienne will always adhere to the code of a true knight. 

For a fighting man, a sword master, the gesture might not be lost of Jaime and perhaps she is warning him.  The story that she tells Jaime may be for the benefit of those who are listening.  He will have to know that there is something wrong by the injury on her face.

I get the sense that Brienne is playing along for the chance to free Pod and because Jaime must know the truth about Lady Stoneheart.

Edited by LynnS

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1 hour ago, Cridefea said:

It is an half truth... The "Hound" part is true, he's going to kill someone if Jaime don't go with Brienne alone. We know he's not Sandor, but technically Lem's The Hound now. And this is one of the reasons why I think the other part is a lie. It's her style. We know Brienne in AFfC, she really can't lie (and yes, it's something about honor too). So maybe an half truth it's easier for her to make up. I don't think it's a LSH or BwB's idea, it's too unbelievable. And here we are:

yes this is what i find really interesting. Jaime knows he can't fight the Hound, and probably he also knows it's a lie, but he goes.  We know he goes, even if we don't know what he answers her. He knows something is wrong with Brienne and he acts. There could be a time when she explains the truth, without the sentry to listen... but i don't think there will be time before leaving.

 

It's good to see you posting!  I don't know.  This Hound could be Lem or Sandor.  If Lem, we have to lean toward Brienne lying, but if Sandor we are looking at a code of some sort.  Brienne's just not a really clever or imaginative person.  Someone would almost have to tell her what to say in my opinion.  Thankfully, Jamie is clever and imaginative, so he may be astute to a danger or set up.   Or he's just hell bent to keep his vow and rescue Sansa, Hound or no.  Hard to say about Jamie.   

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36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'll throw a crackpot into this discussion:

The Hound is Lem, true enough, but the girl is none other than Podrick Payne. Yes, Podrick is a girl, which they discover when trying to revive her from near-hanging.

I laughed out loud at that.  You people are all on fire today!

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16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Touching her sword seems a curious gesture.  A tell, perhaps that she is preparing to draw it.  Some comparisons:

I'd say that Brienne is preparing for violence.  The gesture does draw Jaime's attention and she reminds him that she made a promise to him.  I'm guessing that she will defend Jaime with the sword he gave her, as much as she would defend Arya or Sansa with their father's own sword.  Above all else, Brienne will always adhere to the code of a true knight. 

For a fighting man, a sword master, the gesture might not be lost of Jaime and perhaps she is warning him.  The story that she tells Jaime may be for the benefit of those who are listening.  He will have to know that there is something wrong by the injury on her face.

I get the sense that Brienne is playing along for the chance to free Pod and because Jaime must know the truth about Lady Stoneheart.

It's good to have you here, LynnS.  I actually went to sleep last night thinking about Brienne touching Oathkeeper.   Thank you so much for bringing some clarity to what that was all about.  

One thing--I'm a little unclear what you mean about the bolded.  Do you mean he knows or should know?   Come on, you know I dig it when you explain things. 

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25 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

One other possibility: together J & B kill LSH and whomever tries to defend her/it.

I forgot her northman.   I don't think Thoros is any more interested in LSH's plans or ideas beyond Frankenstein watching his monster, but she does have supporters among the BWB.   Oh that's ghastly, Ser.   I guess if J & B kill LSH and her supporter we will finally know which one is actually with her and which one is hanging out in a hooded cloak at Winterfell.

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One of my half-baked speculations is that Brienne took Jaime to the Quiet Isle.

The tide drowned the bwb members who were dogging her heels. There are a few possibly foreshadowing elements : Jaime's weirwood dream where he and Brienne have their feet in sand and water, Jaime stepping into what he thinks is blood but turns out to be snow transformed into water after his Joanna dream/vision (he might have followed Brienne even though he knew she was lying, thinking she'll lead him to slaughter, but just ends up with wet feet instead). Besides, water seems to be a frequently present element during Jaime and Brienne's significant moments (their trip down the Red Fork, their conversation after the Inn of the kneeling man, their duel, the bath scene).

Once Jaime is safely at the Quiet Isle, Brienne can return to the bwb with the head of a random blond hanged man (plenty of those in the forest) and present it as Jaime's ("I hanged him like a common outlaw"). It's been pointed out both in Jaime and Brienne's chapters that all hanged men look similar.

I admit that it's a rather unlikely scenario because it's all too easy and would make Brienne look very suspicious. But what can I say? I want Jaime, Brienne, Pod and Hyle to all survive.

Anyway, that would mean Brienne lied to Jaime in Pennytree, but ironically she would end up actually taking Jaime to the Hound.

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@Curled Finger, I was not arguing Sandor out of this equation but rather just mostly sticking to Jaime and Brienne. I am sure Sandor will be back, and honestly I can hardly wait! No idea when/how/where, and it may very well be in the middle of this mess we have here!

Also, I think Pod and Hunt are alive. Or at least were alive when Brienne left LSH, after all, they are Stoneheart's leverage t get Brienne to do what she wants. 

59 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

One other possibility: together J & B kill LSH and whomever tries to defend her/it.

I can totally see this happening.

@LynnS, interesting that you bring up Brienne touching her sword... I think that's very meaningful but in a different way. While I agree Brienne is ready for violence, I've always taken her touching the sword and thinking, "Oathkeeper" to mean she is conflicted about her vows - to Cat and to Jaime - but at the same time putting Jaime first. He gave her the hero sword, he entrusted her with his honour, and she loves him. 

I can't wait to see how it will all unfold...

ps: how the hell does "different" becomes "dream fervent" for crying out loud??? Dumb autocorrect.

Edited by kissdbyfire
May the others take you, damn autocorrect!

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4 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

One of my half-baked speculations is that Brienne took Jaime to the Quiet Isle.

The tide drowned the bwb members who were dogging her heels. There are a few possibly foreshadowing elements : Jaime's weirwood dream where he and Brienne have their feet in sand and water, Jaime stepping into what he thinks is blood but turns out to be snow transformed into water after his Joanna dream/vision (he might have followed Brienne even though he knew she was lying, thinking she'll lead him to slaughter, but just ends up with wet feet instead). Besides, water seems to be a frequently present element during Jaime and Brienne's significant moments (their trip down the Red Fork, their conversation after the Inn of the kneeling man, their duel, the bath scene).

Once Jaime is safely at the Quiet Isle, Brienne can return to the bwb with the head of a random blond hanged man (plenty of those in the forest) and present it as Jaime's ("I hanged him like a common outlaw"). It's been pointed out both in Jaime and Brienne's chapters that all hanged men look similar.

I admit that it's a rather unlikely scenario because it's all too easy and would make Brienne look very suspicious. But what can I say? I want Jaime, Brienne, Pod and Hyle to all survive.

Anyway, that would mean Brienne lied to Jaime in Pennytree, but ironically she would end up actually taking Jaime to the Hound.

Oh man, Joy Hill, you've got it like I do!   You tied a lot of things together in that so it's obvious you are another one really thinking about this.   I don't think Brienne would have time to go back to the QI, but I think our Grave Digger has had plenty of time to catch up to Brienne.  Who knows, perhaps he's had time to catch up to the Hound?  (Lem) 

We are told LSH is north of Hag's Mire which is roughly a day's ride from Pennytree, according to Brienne.  LSH is getting awfully close to the Twins and is rumored to be headed toward the Neck.  We don't know if Lem is with her.   My only point here is that we are led to believe Brienne has to meet up with LSH north of Pennytree.  It is GRRM, so it could be a trick and our heroes end up heading back southeast toward the QI. 

I did enjoy your ironic ending.   

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Curled Finger, I was not arguing Sandor out of this equation but rather just mostly sticking to Jaime and Brienne. I am sure Sandor will be back, and honestly I can hardly wait! No idea when/how/where, and it may very well be in the middle of this mess we have here!

Also, I think Pod and Hunt are alive. Or at least were alive when Brienne left LSH, after all, they are Stoneheart's leverage t get Brienne to do what she wants. 

I can totally see this happening.

 

No, I completely understand.   I was just enjoying sharing my little spin on events with you.  Your original post was so close to what I really think about all of this--I was just taking it a step farther.  I sure hope at least Pod is alive..for the gender reveal if nothing else.  Truth be told I would enjoy watching Jamie have to listen to Hyle try to pick up on Brienne.   Oh to Hell with it--I hope all the good guys are alive.  

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5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

No, I completely understand.   I was just enjoying sharing my little spin on events with you.  Your original post was so close to what I really think about all of this--I was just taking it a step farther.  I sure hope at least Pod is alive..for the gender reveal if nothing else.  Truth be told I would enjoy watching Jamie have to listen to Hyle try to pick up on Brienne.   Oh to Hell with it--I hope all the good guys are alive.  

I would looooove to see this. Let him try, I say! Brienne's heart is taken!! :commie:

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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16 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's good to have you here, LynnS.  I actually went to sleep last night thinking about Brienne touching Oathkeeper.   Thank you so much for bringing some clarity to what that was all about.  

One thing--I'm a little unclear what you mean about the bolded.  Do you mean he knows or should know?   Come on, you know I dig it when you explain things. 

LOL!  Jaime has to be confronted with the fact of LSH's existence; that she has been raised from the dead.  The dead don't just come back in your dreams to confront you about your oaths.   Brienne has chosen the sword over the noose or chosen to die by her sword and I think Jaime will be judged in a trial by combat and Lem will lose.  The could open up questions about Sandor Clegane's whereabouts.  So I like the idea that Brienne will take Jaime to the Quiet Isle.  I can't think of a better way for Jaime to purge himself in confession with Elder Brother.  

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I would looooove to see this. Let him try, I say! Brienne's heart is taken!! :commie:

 

Can't you just hear Roy Dotrice as Jamie with that sarcastic, disdainful voice? He will forever be Jamie's voice to me.   Still this will be hysterical if we ever get to read/hear it.   

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1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Can't you just hear Roy Dotrice as Jamie with that sarcastic, disdainful voice? He will forever be Jamie's voice to me.   Still this will be hysterical if we ever get to read/hear it.   

Oh hell yes!!!! Sadly we won't get Roy reading TWoW or ADoS or anything anymore and that makes me so sad... :crying:

 

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4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  Jaime has to be confronted with the fact of LSH's existence; that she has been raised from the dead.  The dead don't just come back in your dreams to confront you about your oaths.   Brienne has chosen the sword over the noose or chosen to die by her sword and I think Jaime will be judged in a trial by combat and Lem will lose.  The could open up questions about Sandor Clegane's whereabouts.  So I like the idea that Brienne will take Jaime to the Quiet Isle.  I can't think of a better way for Jaime to purge himself in confession with Elder Brother.  

Gotta admit @Joy Hillreally brought a lot to the QI idea and direction.   I was bouncing this off a friend yesterday and hadn't planned to post the topic as I didn't think there would be any support for the conversation. (Last 3 topics have gone no where)  Ha, you folks sure tricked me didn't you?   I love a discussion that encourages ideas.   Used to get a lot of that in the sword topics and to be honest, I have a lot of the same questions and confusions as many new readers.  I'm so pleased to engage so much discussion from such a diverse pool of readers.  Jamie and Brienne are quite a team and I can't wait to see them back in action together. 

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh hell yes!!!! Sadly we won't get Roy reading TWoW or ADoS or anything anymore and that makes me so sad... :crying:

 

Since this topic relies so heavily on possibility...are you certain Roy Dotrice won't be reading TWOW?   I remember articles about a Polish translator reading TWOW maybe 2 years ago.  Just saying it never hurts to hope and that is yet one more thing we don't know for sure.   

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2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Since this topic relies so heavily on possibility...are you certain Roy Dotrice won't be reading TWOW?   I remember articles about a Polish translator reading TWOW maybe 2 years ago.  Just saying it never hurts to hope and that is yet one more thing we don't know for sure.   

I remember some talk about a Polish translator being asked to leave his schedule clear so that s/he would be ready to work on TWoW... that was... a couple of years ago? Lost track... 

But if we ever get TWoW by Dotrice... wow, that would be the best surprise EVER!

 

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