Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

40 minutes ago, divica said:

Maybe he sees LSH is using the BwB for her agenda and it isn t really to protect the smallfolk nor to act as kingsmen...

Right but then why does he stay? I was just throwing things out there but we were questioning why Thoros stays when he is clearly not happy with the new leadership. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's Ser Lady Brienne!   Block or no, we are totally thinking the same thing. 

Well, I say we can assume we are right until we are proven wrong

[divica]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right but then why does he stay? I was just throwing things out there but we were questioning why Thoros stays when he is clearly not happy with the new leadership. 

I think he feels responsible for LSH. She is the product of his gods power and she exists because he gave life to beric all those times. He can t leave the BwB without killing LSH and I don t know if he is ready to kill her yet or admit that she acting as his god wants.

[Curled Finger]

36 minutes ago, divica said:

I think he feels responsible for LSH. She is the product of his gods power and she exists because he gave life to beric all those times. He can t leave the BwB without killing LSH and I don t know if he is ready to kill her yet or admit that she acting as his god wants.

My own thoughts are very similar to that.   Thoros didn't expect Beric to jump up after the 1st kiss.  Imagine what he thought of the transfer of life force from Beric to Catelyn!  LSH has got to be interesting to him at the very least! 

[Bernie Mac]

45 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right but then why does he stay? I was just throwing things out there but we were questioning why Thoros stays when he is clearly not happy with the new leadership. 

His 'gods' have determined that she comes back so he is there to see what the gods have planned for the both of them. Thoros has rediscovered his religion in this regard. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, divica said:

I think he feels responsible for LSH. She is the product of his gods power and she exists because he gave life to beric all those times. He can t leave the BwB without killing LSH and I don t know if he is ready to kill her yet or admit that she acting as his god wants.

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

My own thoughts are very similar to that.   Thoros didn't expect Beric to jump up after the 1st kiss.  Imagine what he thought of the transfer of life force from Beric to Catelyn!  LSH has got to be interesting to him at the very least! 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

His 'gods' have determined that she comes back so he is there to see what the gods have planned for the both of them. Thoros has rediscovered his religion in this regard. 

That makes perfect sense. Thank you all. 

[HexMachina]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think the BwB was a pure, honorable group pre-UnCat but for me the difference lies in the fact that she alone seems to be judging the person's guilt or innocence, while previously it was R'hllor (or at least that's what they believed) LSH isn't necessarily seeking out perpetrators of the RW as much as Frey's in general. Any Frey's. Don't get me wrong I think they are a vile group & don't blame her in the slightest for wanting to exterminate the whole house but it does ring louder as vengeance than justice. Couple that with hanging Ser Hyle & Pod & I think that's where some people arrive at the conclusion the BwB is more corrupt under LSH's command. 

I don’t think she has been the sole judge though. If we look at Merret’s trial for example, she isn’t even the judge, she is a ‘witness.’ And Brienne’s trial, it seems like the other BwB members are judges as much as she is.

As for the Frey’s, I could be mistaken, I have not read FfC in a long time, it isn’t undoubtedly fresher in the mids of the rest of you. But I don’t recall any “innocent” Frey’s being targeted. Petyr Pimple, Merret, Ryman...all participants in the RW. Heir other focuses seem to have been the “Mad Dog of Saltpans” and other such criminals. It’s not like she has gone after Olyvar or Alesander or anyone else who was not a participant. Again though, it’s been a while, ma6e I’ve forgotten something.

Ser Hyle And Pod (Pod moreso) as I mentioned in my initial comment are indeed problematic and a guilt by association thing. But then that is the same situation as the pre-LSH brotherhood imo. Nobility = fair game to be attacked irrespective of their inclinations. Like I mentioned before, Brienne was set up for ambush by them despite acting kindly towards the innkeeper and his family.

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah Lyanna, you said that so much better than I could articulate.   I see the hanging of Pod bothers you as much as it bothers me.  Well, done, Lady.  

I said it again already but it bears repeating that Pod’s hanging also bothers me a lot too.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think you articulate wonderfully. Pod bothers me greatly & I'm like you. I get blocked into my own idea of who & what characters are in my own mind. It takes people like @HelenaExMachina to bring me back to reality sometimes. 

Whether or not the BwB is more corrupt Thoros doesn't like the direction they are going in & I'm also curious as to why he stays. Possibly something he has seen in his flames? Hopefully someone with more insight than me can come up with something better. 

As a response to both you and Curled finger, Inwant to start by saying I’m no expert on these matters at all. Being a mod doesn’t give my thoughts any more weight, and in fact as I said before I haven’t read in some time so you all likely have more insightful views than I do on this. Having said that, I think there are a few things to consider with Thorns and the Brotherhood;

1) We speak of the BwB being splintered but we know no details about this. They were always a ‘splintered’ group, with Beric and his companions the core group and then various others - the Huntsman, Greenbeard who goes to the Reach for food, etc. While it is possible the Brotherhood has split on an ideological level now, with LSH and Edric representing two opposite factions, this might not necessarily be the case. It could be as simple as Edric deciding to leave this core group now that Beric is gone - after all, he was Beric’s squire. If this is the case, and it’s not an ideological split, then we have to face the fact that Thoros has no real alternative but to stay. What life is there for him, outside of the BWB?

2) Thoros May feel some kind of debt towards either SH or Arya because of their journeys through the Riverlands with Arya and letting her be taken by the Hound. He may be sticking with LSH as a fulfilment of this obligation. Similarly, he may feel he owes it to Beric, after witnessing his commander lay down his life to bring Catelyn back. Thoros was obviously very loyal to Beric, so he is going to want to respect his final act. 

3) As someone else mentioned, Thoros has found his religion again with the Brotherhood. Even if he may find LSH An day her actions abhorrent, she is, in his eyes, a walking miracle bestowed by his God. What right would a mere priest have to question his God’s work? 

 

Im very much enjoying reading this thread btw, I may lock it for length but please do start a v.2

[Curled Finger]

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar, it appears we did well inviting experience to share their thoughts.   Never ever entered my mind that Thoros may see LSH as a creation of his god.   Are you satisfied?  (Or are we still sharing a block and just want to sit Helena down and beg her for stories?)  I've certainly learned a thing or 2.  If the many-faced god is good to me this year, I hope to have more conversation regarding Thoros in a more focused topic.   

@HelenaExMachina, thank you for giving us your attention and time.  I feel like a baby bird given a worm.   It is not your mod status nor your post count, but your reputation among posters I respect who have suggested I turn to you for explanations that prompted the plea.   I don't care how comfortable we become here in this anonymous book club, it is still intimidating to approach the stars in the community. 

Thank you for you kind words regarding our conversation here.   I'm very proud to have interested my old friends Nevets and Wizz and kissdby fire as well as the many 1st posters and lovely people I haven't really had the opportunity to chat with before who felt comfortable enough to join us.   We've had a very friendly and patient discussion and we are very pleased you joined us, Lady.   

[HexMachina]

Well, I’m blushing  I have to say at this stage that lots of what I think about Stoneheart was influence by @LordStoneheart, who I sadly don’t think posts here anymore. He had some fantastic insights on Catelyn and some real impassioned defences of her and SH  I’m not sure if his posts were lost when the forum swapped but if not they are well worth a read

[Haus Berlin]

 

Quote

I can't begin to imagine what he could see in his flames. Maybe the only way to reach some desired conclusion is to let LSH's madness play out? I'm really grasping at straws here. 

Dear @Lyanna<3Rhaegar, I share your view. Thoros likely respects LSH as his god’s will and as an inevitable way towards something more productive. Even if the hateful hanging of people is a part of that.

I always imagined, that as a part of the endgame the Riverlands will be turned neutral and into a border along with the Vale, once not only the North’s military conflicts reach their peak so that lots of people flee into the south but also the Wall collides so that Ice Wights need to be kept in the north by Fire Wights. The Riverlands are crowded by deads and the Others are not picky when it comes to turning past crimes into their cause. All those death Freys and Lannisters in the trees, ripe to be picked and to built up, would only then serve the living, if the BwB can truly become bannerless: so to see the potential in their former enemies.

Brienne’s to many readers somewhat unattractive return to an equally unattractive place makes me wonder, if this is not actually an inner excursion we are about to accompany here. If she dies as an innocent but for the right thing, than this is her wish… so far. But what are those selfless lives, soldiers and policemen alike are so willing to give away? And what are those right things, that cost a lot of human lives? Knights, Westeros’ proto-police, were geared up to defend the weak, but instead of honouring the trust that was put into them, they became tools of terror and defense only for those of wealth or power. I don’t think Brienne is even remotely tempted to become latter. Nonetheless until now there is no such thing to be found in Westeros like the good thing. Even though Jaime proves a somewhat more instinctual relation to justice than Ned ever did, who put judicative and executive into the same hand, whereas Jaime always refused power and repurposed the KG as counterbalance to power.

Might be Thoros saw both Jaime and Brienne in the flames and tries to make sense of it.

 

@Curled Finger

Quote

Somewhere in the middle I expect they will "combine" or become a real team or great knight.   If that makes any sense at all? 

To me it makes perfect sense. Already their first time in the Riverlands led to legendary stuff: therefore Jaime lost his hand to a wolf, therefore Brienne fought a bear naked. I am not sure if Jaime’s and Brienne’s reciprocal clarifications can top the entertainment value of those tales. More likely the mutual justification itself makes for a good story. Her current time in the Riverlands gave Brienne the image of Kingslayer’s Whore so there’s still something to improve to end up with a nice legend à la The Just Maid, Florian the Fool or Symeon Star-Eyes. The division of labor Jaime and Brienne practice sheds new light on those legends. There is no such thing like a lone hero.

[Curled Finger]

@Haus Berlin, I am just peeking in from my phone at work.  It's so nice when you rejoin us here.  Will give proper reply this evening.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/29/2017 at 9:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

2017 is nearly over and it’s time to clean a few things up.  Yah, yah, come on TWOW.  Until then all we have is what’s been written and permitted for us to read.  Not watch, read.  Some things are worth discussing over and again.  Some things just bug us and some things are difficult to understand.   It’s good to be part of a community that is willing to help each other figure it all out.  

Jamie’s got 1 chapter in A Dance With Dragons and it’s a doozie.  If you recall, our intrepid Brienne finds Jamie at Pennytree. 

He posted sentries to see that no one left the confines of the village. He sent out scouts as well, to make certain no enemy took them unawares. It was near midnight when two came riding back with a woman they had taken captive. "She rode up bold as you please, m'lord, demanding words with you."

Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …"

"A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest."

"The girl. Have you found her?"

"I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

"Where is she?"

"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."  ADWD Jamie I

I bet I go back to this at least 4 times a year.   What’s going on here?   Has Brienne learned guile?   Is she leading Jamie into a trap?  Lots of questions with some equally good answers.   What never occurred to me before was that Brienne may have been telling the truth.  We know that Jamie means Sandor Clegane and Sansa Stark—but who could Brienne mean other than Lem in the Hound’s helm?  Who could this girl be? 

We know that Lem Lemmoncloak is wearing The Hound’s Helm and the person who previously wore it committed atrocities in the Salt Pans.  We are told repeated tales of crime and wanton violence perpetrated by both the Hound as well as various factions of the BWB.   Best as I could tell, the BWB under Lady Stoneheart’s management, is north of Hags Mire enroute to the Neck.  If this is true and it is only a day’s ride from Pennytree to this location it is only another day to the neck.   Would LSH just make camp and wait?  What could LSH possibly want in the North?   Isn’t her primary focus those pesky Freys?  You have to pass the Twins to get to the neck, but it doesn’t have to be a close pass—Could there be a plan here that we’ve not yet uncovered? 

Is it possible The Hound himself, Sandor, has made his presence known to Brienne and she is conspiring with him to thwart LSH?  There are a lot of moving parts in the Riverlands.   I think we all expect something big to happen there.   With your help we may be able to come up with a plausible alternate scenario here where Brienne is not lying to her best friend.  

Brienne is only telling the lies she feels forced to tell. I don't know if she is leading Jaime into a trap, but she has already decided to do what she must to save Podrick and Hyle. I am sure she is referring to Lem. She knows that the Hound is dead. The girl is certainly not Arya or Sansa. Catelyn's mission in death is to find Arya and to avenge the betrayal of her house. 

Quote

"She asked the name of this blade of yours," said the young northman in the sheepskin jerkin.

"Oathkeeper," Brienne answered.

The woman in grey hissed through her fingers. Her eyes were two red pits burning in the shadows. She spoke again.

"No, she says. Call it Oathbreaker, she says. It was made for treachery and murder. She names it False Friend. Like you."

...

The thing that had been Catelyn Stark took hold of her throat again, fingers pinching at the ghastly long slash in her neck, and choked out more sounds. "Words are wind, she says," the northman told Brienne. "She says that you must prove your faith."

"How?" asked Brienne.

"With your sword. Oathkeeper, you call it? Then keep your oath to her, milady says."

"What does she want of me?"

"She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister."

Jaime. The name was a knife, twisting in her belly. "Lady Catelyn, I . . . you do not understand, Jaime . . . he saved me from being raped when the Bloody Mummers took us, and later he came back for me, he leapt into the bear pit empty-handed . . . I swear to you, he is not the man he was. He sent me after Sansa to keep her safe, he could not have had a part in the Red Wedding."

Lady Catelyn's fingers dug deep into her throat, and the words came rattling out, choked and broken, a stream as cold as ice. The northman said, "She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose."

...

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.

She screamed a word.

Brienne VIII, Feast 42

Of course, we learn later in an SSM, that the word was sword. Thus we can assume that Brienne has gone forth to kill the kingslayer, and that Lady Stoneheart, Thoros, Jeyne Heddle, Lem, and Jack-be-Lucky hold Hyle Hunt and Podrick Payne hostage.

Then at Pennytree...

Quote

He sent out scouts as well, to make certain no enemy took them unawares. It was near midnight when two came riding back with a woman they had taken captive. "She rode up bold as you please, m'lord, demanding words with you."

Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what' s happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …"

"A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest."

"The girl. Have you found her?"

"I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth. "Where is she?"

"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."

Jaime, Dance 48

It would appear, then, that Brienne lied to Jaime to separate him from his men so that she could kill the kingslayer. I see four other options: She might be leading Jaime into a trap for Lem and Jack. She might intend to lead Jaime back so that the two of them can plead their defense together, possibly standing trial by battle, against each other or against Lem. She might be hoping Jaime will help her rescue Hyle and Podrick. Or Jaime might see through Brienne's attempted guile  So, which of the five is it? (Or is there another option?)

1) Brienne lied to Jaime to separate him from his men so that she could kill the kingslayer.

2) Brienne is leading Jaime into a trap for Lem and Jack.

3) Brienne intends to lead Jaime back so that the two of them can plead their defense together, possibly standing trial by battle, against each other or against Lem.

4) Brienne is hoping Jaime will help her rescue Hyle and Podrick.

5) Jaime discovers Brienne is leading him into a trap, feels betrayed, and escapes (possibly killing Brienne). 

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

 

Dear @Lyanna<3Rhaegar, I share your view. Thoros likely respects LSH as his god’s will and as an inevitable way towards something more productive. Even if the hateful hanging of people is a part of that.

I always imagined, that as a part of the endgame the Riverlands will be turned neutral and into a border along with the Vale, once not only the North’s military conflicts reach their peak so that lots of people flee into the south but also the Wall collides so that Ice Wights need to be kept in the north by Fire Wights. The Riverlands are crowded by deads and the Others are not picky when it comes to turning past crimes into their cause. All those death Freys and Lannisters in the trees, ripe to be picked and to built up, would only then serve the living, if the BwB can truly become bannerless: so to see the potential in their former enemies.

Brienne’s to many readers somewhat unattractive return to an equally unattractive place makes me wonder, if this is not actually an inner excursion we are about to accompany here. If she dies as an innocent but for the right thing, than this is her wish… so far. But what are those selfless lives, soldiers and policemen alike are so willing to give away? And what are those right things, that cost a lot of human lives? Knights, Westeros’ proto-police, were geared up to defend the weak, but instead of honouring the trust that was put into them, they became tools of terror and defense only for those of wealth or power. I don’t think Brienne is even remotely tempted to become latter. Nonetheless until now there is no such thing to be found in Westeros like the good thing. Even though Jaime proves a somewhat more instinctual relation to justice than Ned ever did, who put judicative and executive into the same hand, whereas Jaime always refused power and repurposed the KG as counterbalance to power.

Might be Thoros saw both Jaime and Brienne in the flames and tries to make sense of it.

 

@Curled Finger

To me it makes perfect sense. Already their first time in the Riverlands led to legendary stuff: therefore Jaime lost his hand to a wolf, therefore Brienne fought a bear naked. I am not sure if Jaime’s and Brienne’s reciprocal clarifications can top the entertainment value of those tales. More likely the mutual justification itself makes for a good story. Her current time in the Riverlands gave Brienne the image of Kingslayer’s Whore so there’s still something to improve to end up with a nice legend à la The Just Maid, Florian the Fool or Symeon Star-Eyes. The division of labor Jaime and Brienne practice sheds new light on those legends. There is no such thing like a lone hero.

I do enjoy reading your posts, Haus.  As usual, so well done, Ser.  I've bolded the lines I wanted to address.  

The first took my thoughts immediately to Melisandre's burning people for the sake of her god.  I wonder if these hangings are somehow justified in Thoros' mind along the same lines?   I don't recall his burning anyone, but I've only just begun the reread with AGOT.  

You make an excellent observation on the politics of valor.  These BWB poor knights, the citizen's watch, if you will, do seem to be defending something not related to power, but in a more base capacity or simple humanity.  It is very interesting now that you draw the eye to the really shoddy gear and support the BWB has.  It's very hard to clean a room without soap.  I wonder if because these poor knights don't have the trappings they may be more susceptible to confusing the lines between justice and revenge? 

Another well drawn conclusion, Ser.  Yes, I can see Jamie and Brienne being the stuff of legends.  

Our very own moderator has threatened to lock our topic for length.   It's only a few pages long!   Helena has suggested we begin a version 2.   Should this come to pass I hope you will continue to join us in the next conversation.  You are such a pleasure to read. 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Brienne is only telling the lies she feels forced to tell. I don't know if she is leading Jaime into a trap, but she has already decided to do what she must to save Podrick and Hyle. I am sure she is referring to Lem. She knows that the Hound is dead. The girl is certainly not Arya or Sansa. Catelyn's mission in death is to find Arya and to avenge the betrayal of her house. 

Brienne VIII, Feast 42

Of course, we learn later in an SSM, that the word was sword. Thus we can assume that Brienne has gone forth to kill the kingslayer, and that Lady Stoneheart, Thoros, Jeyne Heddle, Lem, and Jack-be-Lucky hold Hyle Hunt and Podrick Payne hostage.

Then at Pennytree...

Jaime, Dance 48

It would appear, then, that Brienne lied to Jaime to separate him from his men so that she could kill the kingslayer. I see four other options: She might be leading Jaime into a trap for Lem and Jack. She might intend to lead Jaime back so that the two of them can plead their defense together, possibly standing trial by battle, against each other or against Lem. She might be hoping Jaime will help her rescue Hyle and Podrick. Or Jaime might see through Brienne's attempted guile  So, which of the five is it? (Or is there another option?)

1) Brienne lied to Jaime to separate him from his men so that she could kill the kingslayer.

2) Brienne is leading Jaime into a trap for Lem and Jack.

3) Brienne intends to lead Jaime back so that the two of them can plead their defense together, possibly standing trial by battle, against each other or against Lem.

4) Brienne is hoping Jaime will help her rescue Hyle and Podrick.

5) Jaime discovers Brienne is leading him into a trap, feels betrayed, and escapes (possibly killing Brienne). 

Holy Cow, is it really you, Lost Melnibonean?   What a delight to have you with us.  

How about a combination of a few of the choices you've laid out?   It's been my feeling that this is a lie Brienne has forced herself to tell (much as I hate myself for thinking this).   I always assumed that Brienne would expect Jamie would know how to fix the situation and help rescue Pod & Hyle (if they still live).  I believe our sparkling @LynnSis the one who brought Brienne's touching of the hilt of her sword to be a tip off to a lie to Jamie.  This makes a lot of sense in both telling Jamie to prepare himself for something very bad as well as separate him from his men.   Not exactly a trap, but so close.   

I honestly have no idea what will happen next.   Whether there will be trial by combat or secret escapes or unexpected saves from Grave Diggers--I just don't know.   I personally would like to see Lady Stone Heart just burst into flames.   It will no doubt be like so much else and be a combination of many things that resolve this um, meeting.  

Of course, if I get my wish and she does just self immolate, who will lead the BWB?  

It really is good to see you here.   Thanks so much for dropping in! 

[Lost Melnibonean]

32 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Holy Cow, is it really you, Lost Melnibonean?   What a delight to have you with us.  

How about a combination of a few of the choices you've laid out?   It's been my feeling that this is a lie Brienne has forced herself to tell (much as I hate myself for thinking this).   I always assumed that Brienne would expect Jamie would know how to fix the situation and help rescue Pod & Hyle (if they still live).  I believe our sparkling @LynnSis the one who brought Brienne's touching of the hilt of her sword to be a tip off to a lie to Jamie.  This makes a lot of sense in both telling Jamie to prepare himself for something very bad as well as separate him from his men.   Not exactly a trap, but so close.   

I honestly have no idea what will happen next.   Whether there will be trial by combat or secret escapes or unexpected saves from Grave Diggers--I just don't know.   I personally would like to see Lady Stone Heart just burst into flames.   It will no doubt be like so much else and be a combination of many things that resolve this um, meeting.  

Of course, if I get my wish and she does just self immolate, who will lead the BWB?  

It really is good to see you here.   Thanks so much for dropping in! 

I like that. 

[divica]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I like that. 

If it means something I think she will try to switch swords with jamie to give him a better fighting chance and simbolize that she is breaking her oath to him.

She could say something about the hound wanting to fight him and that he should take the VS to gain na advantage...

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Sorry for popping in & out at random but I just read this passage : 

Quote

“How far did Black Walder track this hooded woman and her men?”
      
      
      “His hounds picked up their scent again north of Hag’s Mire,” the older woman told him. “He swears that he was no more than half a day behind them when they vanished into the Neck.”
      
      
      “Let them rot there,” declared Ser Kennos cheerfully. “If the gods are good, they’ll be swallowed up in quicksand or gobbled down by lizard-lions.”

“Or taken in by frogeaters,” said Ser Danwell Frey. “I would not put it past the crannog men to shelter outlaws.”

While Jaime & Co are supping at Darry on his way to River Run. Could LSH have went to talk to Howland Reed? If so why? Could he have told her about Jon's parentage? If so that could lend credence to the idea that LSH is heading to the wall to crown Jon. She would have lost much of her hate for him realizing he wasn't her beloved Ned's bastard. A long shot, I know but thought it was worth mentioning 

[divica]

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry for popping in & out at random but I just read this passage : 

While Jaime & Co are supping at Darry on his way to River Run. Could LSH have went to talk to Howland Reed? If so why? Could he have told her about Jon's parentage? If so that could lend credence to the idea that LSH is heading to the wall to crown Jon. She would have lost much of her hate for him realizing he wasn't her beloved Ned's bastard. A long shot, I know but thought it was worth mentioning 

Did she already have robb's crown then?

[Seams]

On 1/8/2018 at 10:28 PM, Curled Finger said:

I believe our sparkling @LynnSis the one who brought Brienne's touching of the hilt of her sword to be a tip off to a lie to Jamie.  This makes a lot of sense in both telling Jamie to prepare himself for something very bad as well as separate him from his men.   Not exactly a trap, but so close.  

Found this yesterday in my meanderings through the wiki. From the description of the Bravo, a type of swordsman commonly found in the free cities:

It is said amongst the Braavosi that the night belongs to bravos and courtesans. When night falls, good citizens of Braavos retreat indoors, closing shutters and barring doors.[5] Bravos swagger through Braavos in their parti-colored finery, looking to pick fights and prove their skills.[5]

Most will fight with little cause or no cause. Anyone carrying a sword after dark in Braavos can be challenged to a duel. Simply placing a finger on the hilt of a sword while facing a bravo is akin to challenging them.[5] Bravos never bother anyone without a sword.[5]

[Nevets]

I think she is lying to get Jaime away from his men, and because she can't talk openly in front of them.  I don't believe she is leading Jaime into a trap, or if so, does not intend for the trap to be sprung.  My guess is that she either has a plan or is hoping that Jaime can help to devise one.

I think the BwB may be holding on to Jaime for some future purpose, such as a rescue of prisoners.  They could either hold Jaime hostage and threaten to kill him if the prisoners aren't released, or, alternatively, Jaime could order the prisoners turned over to him.  This last option might work against the Freys, with the Northern prisoners, as they wouldn't necessarily know that the men with him weren't Lannisters'.

I don't think he's dead because his body hasn't shown up, and there is no reason for the BwB to hide the fact that he's dead.

@HelenaExMachina, my main problem with the current BwB is that they seem mainly focused on revenge killings.  Their main purpose was to protect the smallfolk from the rampaging armies.  Well, they are mostly gone.  The Bolton forces have left, and the Lannisters are mostly gone, and those that are left are either in garrison and/or are relatively well-behaved.  

Killing Freys may hold some satisfaction, but I don't really think it accomplishes much, and I think most of the Freys participated in the RW essentially because they were told to.  That may make them stupid or cowards, but hardly venal or villainous.  You want to kill Lothar or Black Walder, be my guest.  But, otherwise, all you do is prolong the violence.