Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, Nevets said:

"Girl" is obviously Sansa.  Jaime is in the presence of others so can't use Sansa's name openly.  Brienne needs Jaime to leave his band,and the only way he will do that is if he thinks Sansa is in danger.  The Hound is a well-known threat.  Also, Brienne has heard that the "Stark girl" was with the Hound.  She may think Jaime has heard the same story.

I'm guessing the real Hound is still at Quiet Isle.  I don't think he would leave for anything other than a threat to Sansa.

There was still plenty for Ned and Robb to do as well, when they met their demises.  The thing is,if he isn't the valonqar, there isn't really anything he has to do, and his character has come to a good redemption point.  I can easily see him sacrificing himself for Brienne and her quest.  Also, his death would shake up the story a great deal, and we're overdue for a major death.  (I don't believe Jon is really dead)

I don't see LSH sending any body to the wall.  She doesn't trust Jon, and with the wall under his control, would probably assume some sort of collusion.  I have to go now, but will check in later.  Good to get back in touch.

I've reread this a couple of times.   Would it be worse to have Brienne lie or mislead?  Is there a difference on the Sin Meter?   I think we are supposed to think the girl is Sansa.   Then again there have been plenty of arguments there there is no girl, it's another girl or it's LSH herself.  I have to take the position there is a girl if there is no code or that Brienne is simply lying, which shouldn't be simple at all for her to do.  I get the need for discretion at Pennytree.  I just wonder about the small bit of story we are given.

I'm undecided about Sandor.   I think there is truth in Brienne's "hound" story somewhere, but it's likely Lem.   I won't be surprised to find Sandor at the QI or tracking Brienne, possibly thinking her a threat to Sansa.

I agree many characters have been cut down before their time.  Jamie is a very powerful man, presumed heir to Casterly Rock (it changes so often I can't even begin to separate this out from the other medium), army commander, right arm of the law.  If anyone can set the Freys up it is Jamie.  If anyone can get people moved from 1 place to another, it is Jamie.  Jamie moves about with the King's authority.  I just see plenty he can do outside of and beyond Cersei.   I hope I never read them together again.   We will have death, but I think we have to get through Myrcella and Tommen before we get to Jamie.  We are overdue for some glorious deaths and POVs need to be culled with a quickness.  

I hope we find out Jon's state of er, animation soon. I don't think he be dead either and I'm eager to get to that part of the story.   I doubt it has anything at all to do with Jamie or Brienne's stories, but stranger things have happened.   

[divica]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I've reread this a couple of times.   Would it be worse to have Brienne lie or mislead?  Is there a difference on the Sin Meter?   I think we are supposed to think the girl is Sansa.   Then again there have been plenty of arguments there there is no girl, it's another girl or it's LSH herself.  I have to take the position there is a girl if there is no code or that Brienne is simply lying, which shouldn't be simple at all for her to do.  I get the need for discretion at Pennytree.  I just wonder about the small bit of story we are given.

I'm undecided about Sandor.   I think there is truth in Brienne's "hound" story somewhere, but it's likely Lem.   I won't be surprised to find Sandor at the QI or tracking Brienne, possibly thinking her a threat to Sansa.

I agree many characters have been cut down before their time.  Jamie is a very powerful man, presumed heir to Casterly Rock (it changes so often I can't even begin to separate this out from the other medium), army commander, right arm of the law.  If anyone can set the Freys up it is Jamie.  If anyone can get people moved from 1 place to another, it is Jamie.  Jamie moves about with the King's authority.  I just see plenty he can do outside of and beyond Cersei.   I hope I never read them together again.   We will have death, but I think we have to get through Myrcella and Tommen before we get to Jamie.  We are overdue for some glorious deaths and POVs need to be culled with a quickness.  

I hope we find out Jon's state of er, animation soon. I don't think he be dead either and I'm eager to get to that part of the story.   I doubt it has anything at all to do with Jamie or Brienne's stories, but stranger things have happened.   

I think you are too fixed on the girl part. If you think sansa(girl)=pod and hound=Lem then it is a half lie. As in the situation is as she said but the people involved are not who she says (however in brienne's heart maybe they have similar places).

And don t Forget that Jaime is supposed to be missing. It doesn t fit very well with him being in the riverlands acting all high and mighty... In adition, how could LSH believe she can control Jaime to do what she wants? Besides LSH believes Jaime was involved in the RW. Do you think she is interested in using him in some plot?

[Lady Dacey]

3 hours ago, divica said:

I am completly convinced that she wants to put Jaime on trial for his crimes.

Trial? I can't see that happening. The BWB under Beric used to give people trials, but since LSH was in charge that changed - Freys and Lannisters were hunted and hanged, that's pretty clear in Merret's epilogue. I mean the man wasn't even there, he's not an important Frey, he was bringing ramson... but the one he was paying for was dead already and he died too. Why would Jaime Lannister, of all people, get a trial? Jaime who has confessed to pushing Bran out of a window, who took and oath to send Sansa and Arya back but didn't - to LSH's eyes the girl in Winterfell is the real Arya and she was given by the Lannisters to Bolton's bastard of all people. Jaime is convicted already, he's sentence has been given, all the Lady wants is to actually see it through - to hang him. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

My personal favorite is Arya learning the real gift of mercy instead of all her righteous vengeance.  But that's me and highly improbable. 

Wouldn't that be beautiful? I wish we could see it 

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, divica said:

I think you are too fixed on the girl part. If you think sansa(girl)=pod and hound=Lem then it is a half lie. As in the situation is as she said but the people involved are not who she says (however in brienne's heart maybe they have similar places).

And don t Forget that Jaime is supposed to be missing. It doesn t fit very well with him being in the riverlands acting all high and mighty... In adition, how could LSH believe she can control Jaime to do what she wants? Besides LSH believes Jaime was involved in the RW. Do you think she is interested in using him in some plot?

What a juicy reply.  I am fixed on all of it truth be known--I can just explain the hound part better than the girl part.   I almost have myself convinced it was a code of some sort, with the sword touching and all. 

Jamie has disappeared with a woman for a couple of weeks, right?   Kevan tells this to Cersei. You're right, that doesn't allow for him to be negotiating deals.  It means he's being held--for what exactly?--or he's traveling...or he's really dead.  The BWB has an immense underground.  Did Cat hear Bolton tell Robb Jamie sends his regards?  Otherwise how could she know?  From what I recall, she knew Roose betrayed Robb and Walder threw the party.  One could argue Lannister guilt by association, but would she have even had time to be conscious of something abstract like that with all that was happening?  

LSH has a group of strong fighters with her.  Maybe she knows Jamie's hand's been removed and maybe not--either way once she comes into contact with him she will see the mutilation.   Maybe that will shake some reality into her but probably not.  She's still got the numbers on her side.  I don't know if she has memories or the ability to reason anything happening now out.  Being the vengeful creature she is I would say she wants his head.  But I'm not privy to her thoughts so I can't know what she wants, only the possibilities for what she can do.  Yes I think she plans something for him to do and if she doesn't you can bet her companions do.  

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

However, I don't know that all of Cat is gone from LSH just yet.

I agree with that. It's complex and nuanced, as everything GRRM creates. I see stoneheart as a twisted version of what Catelyn was becoming even before she was killed. 

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm a big Brienne fan and it disappoints (if that's the right word) me to think Brienne would lie to Jamie--t

I'm a super duper Brienne fan too, just to make it clear. If she's lying, I think there's a good reason, and that it speaks a lot about her growing up. She's very young at the begging of the series, and her internal dialog as she convinces herself to kill the mummers says a lot to me about how hard it is for her to face the hardships of the cruel world she lives in. Just like she had to get above herself to kill, I believe she could bring herself to lie, even if it would cost her. She killed men that deserved to die (right?), she may tell a lie that needs to be told. Methinks...

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Trial? I can't see that happening. The BWB under Beric used to give people trials, but since LSH was in charge that changed - Freys and Lannisters were hunted and hanged, that's pretty clear in Merret's epilogue. I mean the man wasn't even there, he's not an important Frey, he was bringing ramson... but the one he was paying for was dead already and he died too. Why would Jaime Lannister, of all people, get a trial? Jaime who has confessed to pushing Bran out of a window, who took and oath to send Sansa and Arya back but didn't - to LSH's eyes the girl in Winterfell is the real Arya and she was given by the Lannisters to Bolton's bastard of all people. Jaime is convicted already, he's sentence has been given, all the Lady wants is to actually see it through - to hang him. 

Wouldn't that be beautiful? I wish we could see it 

I'm not really sure what anyone really knows at this point.   Just because we know doesn't mean anyone else knows.  I do recall a mock trial deal she had going with her Freys, but it's not a real trial.   However, I think there may be room for trickery here, too.  Personally I just hope she sees him and her head explodes.   Next chapter.  Still, Jamie is very smart and Brienne is very strong and I am certain they could run a game on LSH and win.   If we go to true confessions, I would love to see a rescue by Sandor Clegane--hell bring all the Brothers from the QI to step in.  Hey there's a thought--Jamie's wounded and rescued sleeping it off at the QI. 

I think we all have scenarios we think LSH is perfect for: giving Jon Robb's crown and the kiss of life, killing off the Freys, being eaten by lizard lions and Arya finding her, horrified at what has become of her mother and a quick mercy kill.  I don't think there will be time for that, but I like it and it brings more than 1 lesson to fruition.  She's got to die so that there will be no more of these resurrections out of Thoros' control.   

All I'm sure of is more Freys will die and LSH has to die.  

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Trial? I can't see that happening. The BWB under Beric used to give people trials, but since LSH was in charge that changed - Freys and Lannisters were hunted and hanged, that's pretty clear in Merret's epilogue. I mean the man wasn't even there, he's not an important Frey, he was bringing ramson... but the one he was paying for was dead already and he died too. Why would Jaime Lannister, of all people, get a trial? Jaime who has confessed to pushing Bran out of a window, who took and oath to send Sansa and Arya back but didn't - to LSH's eyes the girl in Winterfell is the real Arya and she was given by the Lannisters to Bolton's bastard of all people. Jaime is convicted already, he's sentence has been given, all the Lady wants is to actually see it through - to hang him. 

Wouldn't that be beautiful? I wish we could see it 

They will hold a mock trial where they will enumerate jaime's crimes and then find him guilty. However, as long as Jaime says he wants to take the black instead of being executed if the BwB has enough honnor they must take him to the Wall.

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

What a juicy reply.  I am fixed on all of it truth be known--I can just explain the hound part better than the girl part.   I almost have myself convinced it was a code of some sort, with the sword touching and all. 

Jamie has disappeared with a woman for a couple of weeks, right?   Kevan tells this to Cersei. You're right, that doesn't allow for him to be negotiating deals.  It means he's being held--for what exactly?--or he's traveling...or he's really dead.  The BWB has an immense underground.  Did Cat hear Bolton tell Robb Jamie sends his regards?  Otherwise how could she know?  From what I recall, she knew Roose betrayed Robb and Walder threw the party.  One could argue Lannister guilt by association, but would she have even had time to be conscious of something abstract like that with all that was happening?  

LSH has a group of strong fighters with her.  Maybe she knows Jamie's hand's been removed and maybe not--either way once she comes into contact with him she will see the mutilation.   Maybe that will shake some reality into her but probably not.  She's still got the numbers on her side.  I don't know if she has memories or the ability to reason anything happening now out.  Being the vengeful creature she is I would say she wants his head.  But I'm not privy to her thoughts so I can't know what she wants, only the possibilities for what she can do.  Yes I think she plans something for him to do and if she doesn't you can bet her companions do.  

I think it must be pretty easy to find out that the brave companions brought Jaime to roose. Then it makes sense that Jaime is the one responsable for turning roose against robb and planning the RW with him as vengence against robb.

I find it quite easy to make Jaime a villain in LSH eyes. Even Jaime sending Brienne in search for sansa and arya can be seen as a means for him to capture he daughters and punish them... The only unexplainable thing is Jaime giving her a VS...

[Lady Dacey]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome Lady, it's really good to be chatting with you so much these days.

 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It's clear you're thinking about this.   Every time we open ourselves to possibility the story becomes more amazing.  I look forward to more of your thoughts and possibilities

Uh, I'm flattered. I really just accidentally discovered this site existed a few weeks ago. I'm still trying to understand and make sense of the "fandom". There's a lot that has been on my mind about these books, and I've just found out there are other nut cases like me out there willing to discuss it all and beyond! I'm not the only crazy one that should be making dinner but is actually dissecting a fantasy universe - I love you all already. 

[divica]

12 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not really sure what anyone really knows at this point.   Just because we know doesn't mean anyone else knows.  I do recall a mock trial deal she had going with her Freys, but it's not a real trial.   However, I think there may be room for trickery here, too.  Personally I just hope she sees him and her head explodes.   Next chapter.  Still, Jamie is very smart and Brienne is very strong and I am certain they could run a game on LSH and win.   If we go to true confessions, I would love to see a rescue by Sandor Clegane--hell bring all the Brothers from the QI to step in.  Hey there's a thought--Jamie's wounded and rescued sleeping it off at the QI. 

I think we all have scenarios we think LSH is perfect for: giving Jon Robb's crown and the kiss of life, killing off the Freys, being eaten by lizard lions and Arya finding her, horrified at what has become of her mother and a quick mercy kill.  I don't think there will be time for that, but I like it and it brings more than 1 lesson to fruition.  She's got to die so that there will be no more of these resurrections out of Thoros' control.   

All I'm sure of is more Freys will die and LSH has to die.  

My problem with Jamie being rescued is what will he do next? And are we going to see another book of brienne wandering the riverlands looking for the stark girls?
I think brienne needs a strong hint about where sansa is and Jamie needs a new purpose. And he won t be rescuing hostages because he isn t going to act against his house without being forced to.

In the near future I can only imagine Jaime protecting his kids in KL or going to the Wall because he won t be acting against his house there.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

One other possibility: together J & B kill LSH and whomever tries to defend her/it.

Do you think that's possible? Jamie sure does hate archers and Anguy would be on the westori national team probably. Len lemoncloak seems quite formidable and sevenstreams would have been killed for sure if he couldn't handle himself.

Ill have to reread the chapter but Merritt Frey had quite an audience and no doubt Jamie and Brienne bring out a bigger crowd.

I will say that the hound called them pathetic and Jamie + Brienne is a formidable partnership especially with the stamina (and obvious elite skill) but it just seems hard to think LSH would allow any situation for j me to escape. 

[Lady Dacey]

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

'm not really sure what anyone really knows at this point.   Just because we know doesn't mean anyone else knows.  I do recall a mock trial deal she had going with her Freys, but it's not a real trial.   However, I think there may be room for trickery here, too.  Personally I just hope she sees him and her head explodes.   Next chapter.  Still, Jamie is very smart and Brienne is very strong and I am certain they could run a game on LSH and win.   If we go to true confessions, I would love to see a rescue by Sandor Clegane--hell bring all the Brothers from the QI to step in.  Hey there's a thought--Jamie's wounded and rescued sleeping it off at the QI. 

Sorry, I didn't get it, what do we know that not everyone knows? I missed it (I'm not a native speaker, maybe that's it).

now, I'm not advocating that Jaime will be hanged, and neither that Brienne is driving him to his death. Not at all. I'm just saying I don't think LSH wants to give the guy a trial. I don't see this a single being her objective. Which brings us to: what is her objective? I mean we don't even know if she's the one who has sent Brienne to fatch Jaime. I like the idea that she's 'the girl' in danger. I don't think Clagane is coming back just yet, in this scenario. I believe the Hound Brienne refers too is the mythical Hound, Lem (or whoever wears the helm now). 

In my 'headcannon' the Lady is somewhat like Beric, remembering little of her former life, clinging to the last things she experienced before she passed, but still possessing some essencially 'Catelyn' quality, like @The Fattest Leech said. So I believe UnCat retains her devotion to her children, but in a twisted way, framed by the violence and anger or her last moments (just like Beric retained his vows to the King, and his own sense of justice). I agree with you @Curled Finger when you say she is capable of scheming, but not reasoning. Maybe, if she believes Jaime is an asset, she'll keep him alive a while (I believe that might have been what she did to Brienne when she realized she could bring in Jaime, and that's what she'll do to Jaime once she realizes that he can... what? I don't know).

I think maybe Brienne revealed to LSH that the Arya that married Bolton is fArya? What could this have caused? 

 

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, divica said:

My problem with Jamie being rescued is what will he do next? And are we going to see another book of brienne wandering the riverlands looking for the stark girls?
I think brienne needs a strong hint about where sansa is and Jamie needs a new purpose. And he won t be rescuing hostages because he isn t going to act against his house without being forced to.

In the near future I can only imagine Jaime protecting his kids in KL or going to the Wall because he won t be acting against his house there.

It all comes down to what you see playing out.   I am of the mind that 12 heroes need to take 12 swords north of the Wall.  Jamie and Brienne are 2 of those heroes.   No interaction with Dany as the killer of her father?  No Jamie fulfilling his duties to Rhaegar?  No reconciliation or reveal with Bran?  No locating either Stark girl?  I see lots for Jamie and Brienne to do all the way to the end.   They are becoming true knights and I need 12 true knights for a special quest.  That could be wishful thinking as much as reality.   I'm not writing it, I'm just enjoying the hell out of it.  If you don't see any future for a character there is no reason to ponder possibilities.   It's like that with Mel for me.   I don't like her, I don't trust her and I wish she would go away.  It's really difficult for me to predict where she's going or to even find a story line she could have any part in.  Maybe Brienne will knock her out and lock her in an ice cell.  

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Sorry, I didn't get it, what do we know that not everyone knows? I missed it (I'm not a native speaker, maybe that's it).

now, I'm not advocating that Jaime will be hanged, and neither that Brienne is driving him to his death. Not at all. I'm just saying I don't think LSH wants to give the guy a trial. I don't see this a single being her objective. Which brings us to: what is her objective? I mean we don't even know if she's the one who has sent Brienne to fatch Jaime. I like the idea that she's 'the girl' in danger. I don't think Clagane is coming back just yet, in this scenario. I believe the Hound Brienne refers too is the mythical Hound, Lem (or whoever wears the helm now). 

In my 'headcannon' the Lady is somewhat like Beric, remembering little of her former life, clinging to the last things she experienced before she passed, but still possessing some essencially 'Catelyn' quality, like @The Fattest Leech said. So I believe UnCat retains her devotion to her children, but in a twisted way, framed by the violence and anger or her last moments (just like Beric retained his vows to the King, and his own sense of justice). I agree with you @Curled Finger when you say she is capable of scheming, but not reasoning. Maybe, if she believes Jaime is an asset, she'll keep him alive a while (I believe that might have been what she did to Brienne when she realized she could bring in Jaime, and that's what she'll do to Jaime once she realizes that he can... what? I don't know).

I think maybe Brienne revealed to LSH that the Arya that married Bolton is fArya? What could this have caused? 

 

The problem is that LSH doesn t believe in Brienne and believes even less in jamie. And if it was jamie that told Brienne that fArya is fake then she won t believe at all!

And to me the biggest problem with LSH keeping jamie alive to use in some scheme is that by now she should hate jamie. 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

21 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

2017 is nearly over and it’s time to clean a few things up.  Yah, yah, come on TWOW.  Until then all we have is what’s been written and permitted for us to read.  Not watch, read.  Some things are worth discussing over and again.  Some things just bug us and some things are difficult to understand.   It’s good to be part of a community that is willing to help each other figure it all out.  

Jamie’s got 1 chapter in A Dance With Dragons and it’s a doozie.  If you recall, our intrepid Brienne finds Jamie at Pennytree. 

He posted sentries to see that no one left the confines of the village. He sent out scouts as well, to make certain no enemy took them unawares. It was near midnight when two came riding back with a woman they had taken captive. "She rode up bold as you please, m'lord, demanding words with you."

Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …"

"A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest."

"The girl. Have you found her?"

"I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

"Where is she?"

"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."  ADWD Jamie I

I bet I go back to this at least 4 times a year.   What’s going on here?   Has Brienne learned guile?   Is she leading Jamie into a trap?  Lots of questions with some equally good answers.   What never occurred to me before was that Brienne may have been telling the truth.  We know that Jamie means Sandor Clegane and Sansa Stark—but who could Brienne mean other than Lem in the Hound’s helm?  Who could this girl be? 

We know that Lem Lemmoncloak is wearing The Hound’s Helm and the person who previously wore it committed atrocities in the Salt Pans.  We are told repeated tales of crime and wanton violence perpetrated by both the Hound as well as various factions of the BWB.   Best as I could tell, the BWB under Lady Stoneheart’s management, is north of Hags Mire enroute to the Neck.  If this is true and it is only a day’s ride from Pennytree to this location it is only another day to the neck.   Would LSH just make camp and wait?  What could LSH possibly want in the North?   Isn’t her primary focus those pesky Freys?  You have to pass the Twins to get to the neck, but it doesn’t have to be a close pass—Could there be a plan here that we’ve not yet uncovered? 

Is it possible The Hound himself, Sandor, has made his presence known to Brienne and she is conspiring with him to thwart LSH?  There are a lot of moving parts in the Riverlands.   I think we all expect something big to happen there.   With your help we may be able to come up with a plausible alternate scenario here where Brienne is not lying to her best friend.  

This is one of the most unpredictable things for me to even speculate but we know for a fact Jamie Lannister is not afraid to die. I'd even make a wager imho that he is less reluctant to have to live than possibly ever. The thing is Jamie may have not cared to die  but he also wanted to get back to Cercei. Well now that relationship is so different you have to consider due to his recently fractured relationship  with his twin/soulmate he will no longer need to live and get back to Cercei as any broken heart can do.

BUT WAIT....

If Briennne is somehow threatened to be killed or something, then that changes a lot. Jamie may not give a rat's tail to live or die. But surely our redemption path golden boy wouldn't stand for a woman he knows is very young and in quite a few ways innocent.

THERE'S MORE... 

Is Briennne for real about to straight up hand over the man who confided his greatest story to her, a man who has clearly grown on her since being called Wench every sentence Jamie said at the beginning. We've seen a bit of a mutual respect/saving one another already. Could she really hand him over to the executioner?

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, divica said:

Well, there are a lot of people that think harwin is the hooded man and we don t know how the events in AFfC alligns themselves with ADwD. I think that within 2 months the BwB can go from the neck to the Wall. If by jon's last chapter they have traveled half the distance or more I don t think it is impossible. It all comes down to the timeline.

But we do know how events align... we don't precise dates but there are several proposed timelines that are pretty good. Here's one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit

And Harwin may be the HM or not, it doesn't change anything because he may have left the BwB long ago - we don't know. I don't think anyone knows for sure where exactly LSH and the BwB are, or even if they're all still together. 

But my point was, if LSH and/or the BwB are indeed near Pennytree in ADwD Jaime I, they won't be able to turn up at the Wall early on in Winds. and I think we will get to see these characters soon. OTOH, Pennytree is really near RR. 

2 hours ago, divica said:

Can they know it? They would need word from someone in winterfell that has seen fArya to know. I don t think it is possible.

Not necessarily. Jeyne Poole was dispatched north to become Ramsay's new chew toy from KL, and on horseback w/ a retinue of Bolton men led by Steelshanks. And I very much doubt there's anything LSH/BwB don't know about what's going on in the Riverlands. 

2 hours ago, divica said:

That might have been the original plan. But walking around the riverlands with Jaime is a huge danger. The sooner they either kill or get rid of him the better.

Like I said above, Pennytree is very close to RR. Tom of Sevenstreams is already there btw.

2 hours ago, divica said:

And I simply can t imagine LSH wanting to use Jaime in some clever plot. She wants revenge/justice(?). She has already released Jaime once and things went very wrong. She can t force Jaime to act the way she wants (for her Jaime has to be some kind of monster, there is no way she thinks she can manipulate him by threatning brienne and once again things could go very wrong).

At most I can see LSH sending a few members of the BwB to somehow poison people at the wedding. 

And the last we know Jaime is missing, so it would be very weird for him to desapear for a while and come back at a frey wedding uninvited.

LSH may just want to chop off his head, or she may want to use him first and then chop off his head. 

As to the bold, I'm not sure I understand... Jaime was on his way to RR when Brienne got to him. And it's his cousin who is getting married to a Frey. I'm not saying he's just going to turn up there, but even if he did I'm sure he wouldn't be crashing the party. I think it's exactly because he is expected to attend that LSH may try to use him somehow - before chopping off his head, of course!

 

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It all comes down to what you see playing out.   I am of the mind that 12 heroes need to take 12 swords north of the Wall.  Jamie and Brienne are 2 of those heroes.   No interaction with Dany as the killer of her father?  No Jamie fulfilling his duties to Rhaegar?  No reconciliation or reveal with Bran?  No locating either Stark girl?  I see lots for Jamie and Brienne to do all the way to the end.   They are becoming true knights and I need 12 true knights for a special quest.  That could be wishful thinking as much as reality.   I'm not writing it, I'm just enjoying the hell out of it.  If you don't see any future for a character there is no reason to ponder possibilities.   It's like that with Mel for me.   I don't like her, I don't trust her and I wish she would go away.  It's really difficult for me to predict where she's going or to even find a story line she could have any part in.  Maybe Brienne will knock her out and lock her in an ice cell.  

For Jaime to do a lot of those things he has to go north. And while Brinne can travel incognito, Jamie can t go nearly anywhere without being recognised... And a lot of people hate lannisters...

But what I was saying is that if jamie escapes LSH what are his motivations to go to his next place?

[divica]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But we do know how events align... we don't precise dates but there are several proposed timelines that are pretty good. Here's one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit

And Harwin may be the HM or not, it doesn't change anything because he may have left the BwB long ago - we don't know. I don't think anyone knows for sure where exactly LSH and the BwB are, or even if they're all still together. 

But my point was, if LSH and/or the BwB are indeed near Pennytree in ADwD Jaime I, they won't be able to turn up at the Wall early on in Winds. and I think we will get to see these characters soon. OTOH, Pennytree is really near RR. 

In that timeline there are 3 months of difference between jamie's chapter and jon's last chapter. More than enough time for the BwB to travel.

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not necessarily. Jeyne Poole was dispatched north to become Ramsay's new chew toy from KL, and on horseback w/ a retinue of Bolton men led by Steelshanks. And I very much doubt there's anything LSH/BwB don't know about what's going on in the Riverlands. 

It is possible, but it is also unlikable. Even more unlikely if we take into acount that they would need to find out she wasn t arya from a considerate distance. I doubt the boltons were paroling arya...

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

As to the bold, I'm not sure I understand... Jaime was on his way to RR when Brienne got to him. And it's his cousin who is getting married to a Frey. I'm not saying he's just going to turn up there, but even if he did I'm sure he wouldn't be crashing the party. I think it's exactly because he is expected to attend that LSH may try to use him somehow - before chopping off his head, of course!

In a cersei chapter we find out that jamie is missing. So he couldn t have received a letter inviting him to the marriage nor anounced to anyone he was coming. So, yeah he is crashing the party lol. However no one will deny entrance to him... I just don t see them using jamie.

[Lady Dacey]

12 minutes ago, divica said:

Jamie can t go nearly anywhere without being recognised...

I'd disagree. Without his golden hand, a beard and a shaved head he could easily travel incognito. He's said that himself, actually. Even Cersei took a moment to realize it was him! Only high lords would be able to recognize him, and you don't really come across a lot of lords on the road. Common people wouldn't recognize him without his golden locks or his golden or withe armor... if he'd lose them, it would be ok. 

[Lady Dacey]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

 

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But we do know how events align... we don't precise dates but there are several proposed timelines that are pretty good. Here's one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit

And Harwin may be the HM or not, it doesn't change anything because he may have left the BwB long ago - we don't know. I don't think anyone knows for sure where exactly LSH and the BwB are, or even if they're all still together. 

But my point was, if LSH and/or the BwB are indeed near Pennytree in ADwD Jaime I, they won't be able to turn up at the Wall early on in Winds. and I think we will get to see these characters soon. OTOH, Pennytree is really near RR. 

In that timeline there are 3 months of difference between jamie's chapter and jon's last chapter. More than enough time for the BwB to travel.

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not necessarily. Jeyne Poole was dispatched north to become Ramsay's new chew toy from KL, and on horseback w/ a retinue of Bolton men led by Steelshanks. And I very much doubt there's anything LSH/BwB don't know about what's going on in the Riverlands. 

It is possible, but it is also unlikable. Even more unlikely if we take into acount that they would need to find out she wasn t arya from a considerate distance. I doubt the boltons were paroling arya...

 

It VERY unlikely that the BWB knows that 'Arya' is actually fArya. When Theon first meets her he tells us she's traveling inside a wheelhouse exactly to remain out of sight. 

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Sorry, I didn't get it, what do we know that not everyone knows? I missed it (I'm not a native speaker, maybe that's it).

now, I'm not advocating that Jaime will be hanged, and neither that Brienne is driving him to his death. Not at all. I'm just saying I don't think LSH wants to give the guy a trial. I don't see this a single being her objective. Which brings us to: what is her objective? I mean we don't even know if she's the one who has sent Brienne to fatch Jaime. I like the idea that she's 'the girl' in danger. I don't think Clagane is coming back just yet, in this scenario. I believe the Hound Brienne refers too is the mythical Hound, Lem (or whoever wears the helm now). 

In my 'headcannon' the Lady is somewhat like Beric, remembering little of her former life, clinging to the last things she experienced before she passed, but still possessing some essencially 'Catelyn' quality, like @The Fattest Leech said. So I believe UnCat retains her devotion to her children, but in a twisted way, framed by the violence and anger or her last moments (just like Beric retained his vows to the King, and his own sense of justice). I agree with you @Curled Finger when you say she is capable of scheming, but not reasoning. Maybe, if she believes Jaime is an asset, she'll keep him alive a while (I believe that might have been what she did to Brienne when she realized she could bring in Jaime, and that's what she'll do to Jaime once she realizes that he can... what? I don't know).

I think maybe Brienne revealed to LSH that the Arya that married Bolton is fArya? What could this have caused? 

 

Wow, I would have never known English wasn't your 1st language.   You write quite well.  As to stuff we know as readers that LSH may not know...well, how about the mutilation of Jamie's hand, fArya, Sansa's, Sandor's and Gendry's secret identities, Thoros' displeasure at her leadership...there is a great deal we can't be sure she knows.   We only guess she might know.  It's like Kevan telling Cersei Jamie has disappeared.   It could mean many things but what it mostly means is a reliable source hasn't seen Jamie anywhere.    I don't know that Cat doesn't know that Arya is really Jeyne Poole.   I don't know that LSH knows that Jeyne Westerling is being moved to the Westerlands.   

I was never a Cat fan.   That said, I'm not one to get all goofy about it either.   The eyes glimmering under the hood tells me there was a candle lighting the cave, not that she was crying or sentimental.   Truth is I don't think she was a good mother on any count.  If anything she's moist eyed over her lost chance at a throne--no different than Cersei.   Sorry, that's the honest truth.  That crown twirling is creepy.   Of all the memorabilia she could have had from Robb, why this temporary crown?  It's a symbol of power or maybe even loss of power, but I don't think it is a symbol of Robb.  So she can scheme and that's what crown twirling looks like to me, scheming.   Jamie Lannister is a valuable hostage no matter who has him.   His family is the wealthiest and most powerful in the realm.   I am hoping there is some moment of truth or something for LSH when she sees the stump.  Why Jamie?  I say for access.  That's 1 thing he could give to a twisted person with nothing but bloodlust left.   

We don't know LSH knows Arya is Jeyne.   Remember, the BWB is underground.  It's not easy to get to them much less run up and tell them what's going on.   It's possible Brienne tried to tell LSH the truth and they shut her down like every other thing Brienne tried to tell them.  LSH may need to hear this isn't Arya from Jamie to make it real.  We just don't know what's really going on here.