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Brienne's Honor in Pennytree


Curled Finger

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37 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

This is one of the most unpredictable things for me to even speculate but we know for a fact Jamie Lannister is not afraid to die. I'd even make a wager imho that he is less reluctant to have to live than possibly ever. The thing is Jamie may have not cared to die  but he also wanted to get back to Cercei. Well now that relationship is so different you have to consider due to his recently fractured relationship  with his twin/soulmate he will no longer need to live and get back to Cercei as any broken heart can do.

BUT WAIT....

If Briennne is somehow threatened to be killed or something, then that changes a lot. Jamie may not give a rat's tail to live or die. But surely our redemption path golden boy wouldn't stand for a woman he knows is very young and in quite a few ways innocent.

THERE'S MORE... 

Is Briennne for real about to straight up hand over the man who confided his greatest story to her, a man who has clearly grown on her since being called Wench every sentence Jamie said at the beginning. We've seen a bit of a mutual respect/saving one another already. Could she really hand him over to the executioner?

 

Ah Brother, so good to have you here. I really enjoyed your post--as usual.  You had me thinking maybe Brienne is "the girl" she speaks of and Lem is going to harm her.   Brilliant! You bet your patooti Golden Boy would step up to save her.   Nah, no way our girl is handing her boy over to be hurt or killed.   She believes in him with every fiber of her soul.  Which leads me to believe she expects him to figure a way out of the situation.   I can hear her saying to herself "Jamie will know what to do.   Jamie will know what to do..." She's between the devil and the deep blue sea.   She's got to play this as straight as she possibly can.  Sure it's possible she lied, but that is so not her.  I am not even sure she could spin a story by herself.   As someone above noted, if her captors gave her the story it would make no sense as they would know Jamie would go, making the capture a farce.  I guess someone travelling with Brienne could have fed her a story?  

Glad you are enjoying the conversation.   I hope you feel free to jump in wherever you like.   

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52 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But we do know how events align... we don't precise dates but there are several proposed timelines that are pretty good. Here's one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit

And Harwin may be the HM or not, it doesn't change anything because he may have left the BwB long ago - we don't know. I don't think anyone knows for sure where exactly LSH and the BwB are, or even if they're all still together. 

But my point was, if LSH and/or the BwB are indeed near Pennytree in ADwD Jaime I, they won't be able to turn up at the Wall early on in Winds. and I think we will get to see these characters soon. OTOH, Pennytree is really near RR. 

Not necessarily. Jeyne Poole was dispatched north to become Ramsay's new chew toy from KL, and on horseback w/ a retinue of Bolton men led by Steelshanks. And I very much doubt there's anything LSH/BwB don't know about what's going on in the Riverlands. 

Like I said above, Pennytree is very close to RR. Tom of Sevenstreams is already there btw.

LSH may just want to chop off his head, or she may want to use him first and then chop off his head. 

As to the bold, I'm not sure I understand... Jaime was on his way to RR when Brienne got to him. And it's his cousin who is getting married to a Frey. I'm not saying he's just going to turn up there, but even if he did I'm sure he wouldn't be crashing the party. I think it's exactly because he is expected to attend that LSH may try to use him somehow - before chopping off his head, of course!

 

Brilliant

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40 minutes ago, divica said:

In that timeline there are 3 months of difference between jamie's chapter and jon's last chapter. More than enough time for the BwB to travel.

 I may have misunderstood something here... Are you suggesting the BwB (w/ or sans LSH) and Jaime left for the Wall soon after Brienne and Jaime's encounter in Dance?

40 minutes ago, divica said:

It is possible, but it is also unlikable. Even more unlikely if we take into acount that they would need to find out she wasn t arya from a considerate distance. I doubt the boltons were paroling arya...

I disagree. It's a group of Bolton men, crossing the Riverlands w/ a girl. Everyone knows of the Boltons' involvement in the RW. I think it's more likely that they did hear/see something. 

40 minutes ago, divica said:

In a cersei chapter we find out that jamie is missing. So he couldn t have received a letter inviting him to the marriage nor anounced to anyone he was coming. So, yeah he is crashing the party lol. However no one will deny entrance to him... I just don t see them using jamie.

We don't know whether he "received an invitation", and I'm not even sure it works like that, where people receive invitations w/ RSVP etc. It's his cousin, and he was going to Riverrun, that much we do know. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

 

Uh, I'm flattered. I really just accidentally discovered this site existed a few weeks ago. I'm still trying to understand and make sense of the "fandom". There's a lot that has been on my mind about these books, and I've just found out there are other nut cases like me out there willing to discuss it all and beyond! I'm not the only crazy one that should be making dinner but is actually dissecting a fantasy universe - I love you all already. 

On behalf of all the good guys here at the forum we welcome you and look forward to many crazy conversations with you. 

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1 hour ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Do you think that's possible? Jamie sure does hate archers and Anguy would be on the westori national team probably. Len lemoncloak seems quite formidable and sevenstreams would have been killed for sure if he couldn't handle himself.

Ill have to reread the chapter but Merritt Frey had quite an audience and no doubt Jamie and Brienne bring out a bigger crowd.

I will say that the hound called them pathetic and Jamie + Brienne is a formidable partnership especially with the stamina (and obvious elite skill) but it just seems hard to think LSH would allow any situation for j me to escape. 

LSH will definitely not allow Jamie to escape.  I wonder if that's why we see Thoros so unhappy with his homies these days...

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51 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Wow, I would have never known English wasn't your 1st language.   You write quite well.  As to stuff we know as readers that LSH may not know...well, how about the mutilation of Jamie's hand, fArya, Sansa's, Sandor's and Gendry's secret identities, Thoros' displeasure at her leadership...there is a great deal we can't be sure she knows.   We only guess she might know.  It's like Kevan telling Cersei Jamie has disappeared.   It could mean many things but what it mostly means is a reliable source hasn't seen Jamie anywhere.    I don't know that Cat doesn't know that Arya is really Jeyne Poole.   I don't know that LSH knows that Jeyne Westerling is being moved to the Westerlands.   

I was never a Cat fan.   That said, I'm not one to get all goofy about it either.   The eyes glimmering under the hood tells me there was a candle lighting the cave, not that she was crying or sentimental.   Truth is I don't think she was a good mother on any count.  If anything she's moist eyed over her lost chance at a throne--no different than Cersei.   Sorry, that's the honest truth.  That crown twirling is creepy.   Of all the memorabilia she could have had from Robb, why this temporary crown?  It's a symbol of power or maybe even loss of power, but I don't think it is a symbol of Robb.  So she can scheme and that's what crown twirling looks like to me, scheming.   Jamie Lannister is a valuable hostage no matter who has him.   His family is the wealthiest and most powerful in the realm.   I am hoping there is some moment of truth or something for LSH when she sees the stump.  Why Jamie?  I say for access.  That's 1 thing he could give to a twisted person with nothing but bloodlust left.   

We don't know LSH knows Arya is Jeyne.   Remember, the BWB is underground.  It's not easy to get to them much less run up and tell them what's going on.   It's possible Brienne tried to tell LSH the truth and they shut her down like every other thing Brienne tried to tell them.  LSH may need to hear this isn't Arya from Jamie to make it real.  We just don't know what's really going on here.  

My mother tongue is Portuguese, I'm Brazilian :) reading in English is a favorite pastime not to get rusty with the language. 

Got it what you said about them not knowing what we know. Yeah sure. We're all making assumptions here right? What she might know and how it might have made her act like this or that. I do think UnCat know very little, tough. I believe it's unlikely no one heard about the northern merriage (fArya to Bolton) but it's very very unlikely the BWB knows Arya isn't really Arya. Nearly impossible. It's very public knowledge that Bolton has merried the Stark of Winterfell, right? And very few people know it's all fake, and those who know are all lords and won't be sharing this information. 

Cat was definitely a terrible mother, I agree. She was devoted tough. In her own head she was doing all she could to have her children safe.

But let's go back to Brienne and Jaime! 

We can see that Jaime has a very pragmatic view of vows. It's not that they are completely meaningless to him - not at all, they never were. In an ideal situation, he'd keep his vows alright... It's that he's constantly making decisions taking into account the outcome rather than the promise that was made or the oath that taken. If Jaime's arch is one of redemption, it's not at all about abandoning pragmatism - it's about favoring a different outcome than he would before. If he was interested in his own gain (it's ok to kill a king to guarantee the end of the war, it's also ok to kill a child not to get caught) he's now trying to figure out right from wrong, choosing the outcome that allows him to keep up with as many obligations and vows as possible (serve his king in the Riverlands without taking up arms against Starks or Tullys) even if he has to talk about infants in trebuchets to accomplish that (I seriously doubt that was ever a real threat, right?).

Brienne on the other hard is anything but pragmatic. She's an idealist, she's naive. Vows are more important than practical outcomes - at least until the last time we were inside her head. 

I think it's ironic that in this very short interaction between these two characters that are so different and have archs' that are so intertwined they actually are playing each other's part: Brienne is "lying" to get Jaime to do something, and Jaime is following her without so much as a question, puting his oath, his vows (and maybe his love for this woman) before anything remotely practical. 

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45 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

It VERY unlikely that the BWB knows that 'Arya' is actually fArya. When Theon first meets her he tells us she's traveling inside a wheelhouse exactly to remain out of sight. 

I didn't remember that. She leaves KL on horseback, so what we don't know here is where they decided it was too risky to let her be seen. I think there's a good chance she only took the wheelhouse to go from Barrowtown to Winterfell. But let's say she was hidden the whole way... It's a group of people, going a long way, They would have to make several stops even if they make camp every night to avoid inns and such. And people talk... All that;s needed is for one man to say, "We're taking Arya Stark north" - they don't even have to mention the wedding. But even if no one mentions the name Arya, it's a group of Bolton men, and I believe the BwB would find a way to learn as much as possible about them.

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 I may have misunderstood something here... Are you suggesting the BwB (w/ or sans LSH) and Jaime left for the Wall soon after Brienne and Jaime's encounter in Dance?

I am saying that if LSH and the BwB were 1 day away from jamie's location then it is possible they headed north a few days after that chapter. Is it impossible?

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. It's a group of Bolton men, crossing the Riverlands w/ a girl. Everyone knows of the Boltons' involvement in the RW. I think it's more likely that they did hear/see something. 

As someone posted above it seems that fAria traveled in a covered wagon. So it would be very difficult to see her. I am not saying it is impossible, just that the whole objective of the transport is that nobody sees arya... Besides it isn t as if there are a lot of people able to recognize arya... If it did happen I think we would some kind of clue of an accident during fAria trip in some pov.

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We don't know whether he "received an invitation", and I'm not even sure it works like that, where people receive invitations w/ RSVP etc. It's his cousin, and he was going to Riverrun, that much we do know. 

If nobody knows where he is he can t receive invitations. And I agree that there isn t reservations for this kind of thing in westeros. But if Jamie disapears for enough time for the news to reach cersei then I think we can agree nobody knows if he is going to be at the wedding and probably he isn t expected.

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3 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

My mother tongue is Portuguese, I'm Brazilian :) reading in English is a favorite pastime not to get rusty with the language. 

Got it what you said about them not knowing what we know. Yeah sure. We're all making assumptions here right? What she might know and how it might have made her act like this or that. I do think UnCat know very little, tough. I believe it's unlikely no one heard about the northern merriage (fArya to Bolton) but it's very very unlikely the BWB knows Arya isn't really Arya. Nearly impossible. It's very public knowledge that Bolton has merried the Stark of Winterfell, right? And very few people know it's all fake, and those who know are all lords and won't be sharing this information. 

Cat was definitely a terrible mother, I agree. She was devoted tough. In her own head she was doing all she could to have her children safe.

But let's go back to Brienne and Jaime! 

We can see that Jaime has a very pragmatic view of vows. It's not that they are meaningless to him - not at all, they never were. It's that he's constantly making decisions taking into account the outcome rather than the promise that was made or the oath that taken. If Jaime's arch is one of redemption, it's not at all about abandoning pragmatism - it's about favoring a different outcome than he would before. If he was interested in his own gain (it's ok to kill a king to guarantee the end of the war, it's also ok to kill a child not to get caught) he's now trying to figure out right from wrong, choosing the outcome that allows him to keep up with as many obligations and vows as possible (serve his king in the Riverlands without taking up arms against Starks or Tullys) even if he has to talk about infants in trebuchets to accomplish that (I seriously doubt that was ever a real threat, right?)z

Brienne on the other hard is anything but pragmatic. She's an idealist, she's naive. Vows are more important than practical outcomes - at least until the last time we were inside her head. 

I think it's ironic that in this very short interaction between these two characters that are so different and have archs' that are so intertwined they actually are playing each other's part: Brienne is "lying" to get Jaime to do something, and Jaime is following her without so much as a question, puting his oath, his vows (and maybe his love for this woman) before anything remotely practical. 

Yep.  This is the beauty of this tale.  A change of roles between Jamie and Brienne makes the possibility of a lie much easier to swallow.  

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1 minute ago, Lady Dacey said:

Uh, I have a question I'm not sure is ralated to this topic... Tom in Riverrun. Do you guys belive he abandoned the Brotherhood, or he's there on a mission? 

He's on mission.   A singer is a perfect thing to place at a wedding...or a siege. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

 

Uh, I'm flattered. I really just accidentally discovered this site existed a few weeks ago. I'm still trying to understand and make sense of the "fandom". There's a lot that has been on my mind about these books, and I've just found out there are other nut cases like me out there willing to discuss it all and beyond! I'm not the only crazy one that should be making dinner but is actually dissecting a fantasy universe - I love you all already. 

 

20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

On behalf of all the good guys here at the forum we welcome you and look forward to many crazy conversations with you. 

Hear, hear! :cheers:

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I didn't remember that. She leaves KL on horseback, so what we don't know here is where they decided it was too risky to let her be seen. I think there's a good chance she only took the wheelhouse to go from Barrowtown to Winterfell. But let's say she was hidden the whole way... It's a group of people, going a long way, They would have to make several stops even if they make camp every night to avoid inns and such. And people talk... All that;s needed is for one man to say, "We're taking Arya Stark north" - they don't even have to mention the wedding. But even if no one mentions the name Arya, it's a group of Bolton men, and I believe the BwB would find a way to learn as much as possible about them.

O, yeah, of course!! I believe the BWB know that 'Arya' went north, that that's pretty much public knowledge. I just don't think they know it's acuatlly Jeyne, not Arya - that would be too much, I think... who could have known Arya well enough to look at Jeyne at an inn and say "that's not Stoneheat's daughter!" and report back to the Lady? 

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3 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Uh, I have a question I'm not sure is ralated to this topic... Tom in Riverrun. Do you guys belive he abandoned the Brotherhood, or he's there on a mission? 

He's a spy! 

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I didn't remember that. She leaves KL on horseback, so what we don't know here is where they decided it was too risky to let her be seen. I think there's a good chance she only took the wheelhouse to go from Barrowtown to Winterfell. But let's say she was hidden the whole way... It's a group of people, going a long way, They would have to make several stops even if they make camp every night to avoid inns and such. And people talk... All that;s needed is for one man to say, "We're taking Arya Stark north" - they don't even have to mention the wedding. But even if no one mentions the name Arya, it's a group of Bolton men, and I believe the BwB would find a way to learn as much as possible about them.

But someone would need to inform the BwB, then locate someone who knows arya, then make that person travel to where the transport is and then find a way for him/her to see "arya" up close. It is possible, but doesn t sound easy and I would expect some clue it happened somewhere.

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I didn't remember that. She leaves KL on horseback, so what we don't know here is where they decided it was too risky to let her be seen. I think there's a good chance she only took the wheelhouse to go from Barrowtown to Winterfell. But let's say she was hidden the whole way... It's a group of people, going a long way, They would have to make several stops even if they make camp every night to avoid inns and such. And people talk... All that;s needed is for one man to say, "We're taking Arya Stark north" - they don't even have to mention the wedding. But even if no one mentions the name Arya, it's a group of Bolton men, and I believe the BwB would find a way to learn as much as possible about them.

I think your scenario likely, but I can't prove it.  I think pieces of information are getting to LSH, but just pieces not whole stories.  I think there are fragments of the big stories, Cersei's arrest, the Bolton wedding, Stannis march?, most of the Riverlands scuttle butt.  Would they find out about the Vale Tourney?  Jon's Death?   Alys Karstark's marriage?  Wildlings at the Wall? The GNC?  I think there is some, but not all, such as the Bolton wedding, but not necessarily to whom.  (Here goes, I couldn't resist..) That's why Hallis Mollen is in Winterfell.   Information may be precisely what LSH wants from Jamie.   Before she kills him in a most distasteful and painful manner. 

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7 minutes ago, divica said:

But someone would need to inform the BwB, then locate someone who knows arya, then make that person travel to where the transport is and then find a way for him/her to see "arya" up close. It is possible, but doesn t sound easy and I would expect some clue it happened somewhere.

The BWB has a spy at Winterfell...well I think they do any way!   Remember, the BWB is supported my many lords and mildly influential people.   They have access to information, but I'm not sure how much. 

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7 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

O, yeah, of course!! I believe the BWB know that 'Arya' went north, that that's pretty much public knowledge. I just don't think they know it's acuatlly Jeyne, not Arya - that would be too much, I think... who could have known Arya well enough to look at Jeyne at an inn and say "that's not Stoneheat's daughter!" and report back to the Lady? 

I think the second LSH hears of this "Arya Stark" she will find a way to take a look. We'll soon find out! :D

 

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10 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

O, yeah, of course!! I believe the BWB know that 'Arya' went north, that that's pretty much public knowledge. I just don't think they know it's acuatlly Jeyne, not Arya - that would be too much, I think... who could have known Arya well enough to look at Jeyne at an inn and say "that's not Stoneheat's daughter!" and report back to the Lady? 

Harwyn, Lem, Thoros--any of them.  They held Arya hostage for a while, too, remember? 

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14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:
14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Harwyn, Lem, Thoros--any of them.  They held Arya hostage for a while, too, remember? 

It's possible, of course. I was thinking more on the line of information coming in from supporters, people at inns and stuff, broken pieces of information from those who wouldn't know Arya. If the brotherhood actually followed Bolton's men to peek at Arya they would certainly know. 

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