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Varysblackfyre321

If not Jon who?

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Catelyn was very adamant against Robb legitimizing Jon and naming him Robb's heir. 

But if not Jon who?

Her suggestion of some distant cousin who probably has never seen winterfell seems...not that strong to say the least. I don't think Jon is the ideal ruler/military commander, but I wonder if there truly was no one else Robb could name. 

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Considering the options Robb had at the time and the circumstances, no, there wasn't anyone else. At least, no one who would be suitable. 

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14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Considering the options Robb had at the time and the circumstances, no, there wasn't anyone else. At least, no one who would be suitable. 

How about one of his most trusted generals? Edmure perhaps?

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1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

How about one of his most trusted generals? Edmure perhaps?

Why would he name Edmure Tully his heir? Robb doesn't have Edmure in very high regard, and that's not even going into the fact that Edmure has no real ties to the north apart from his sister having married a Stark. 

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15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

How about one of his most trusted generals? Edmure perhaps?

And the North should follow Edmure because? Edmure has no direct ties to the North besides his sister being the Lady of Winterfell. Leaving the North to Edmure would likely cause a civil wat amongst the northern houses. 

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13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Why would he name Edmure Tully his heir? Robb doesn't have Edmure in very high regard, and that's not even going into the fact that Edmure has no real ties to the north apart from his sister having married a Stark. 

Well I don't know how high or low he'd hold Edmure exactly. he did agree to a marriage pact that was supposed to make up for Robb's bluster so I don't imagine too badly. And Edmure was an example of a general. I mean how about any of his other bannerman whose fought beside him and shown their worth?  

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49 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Well I don't know how high or low he'd hold Edmure exactly. he did agree to a marriage pact that was supposed to make up for Robb's bluster so I don't imagine too badly. And Edmure was an example of a general. I mean how about any of his other bannerman whose fought beside him and shown their worth?  

Edmure agreed to the marriage after he fucked up Robb's plans, as a way to make up for it. So no, Robb would never ever name Edmure, then the lord of RR, to be his heir as KitN. 

ASoS, Catelyn

“Lord Hoster’s private audience chamber was a small room above the Great Hall, better suited to intimate discussions. Robb took the high seat, removed his crown, and set it on the floor beside him as Catelyn rang for wine. Edmure was filling his uncle’s ear with the whole story of the fight at the Stone Mill. It was only after the servants had come and gone that the Blackfish cleared his throat and said, “I think we’ve all heard sufficient of your boasting, Nephew.”
Edmure was taken aback. “Boasting? What do you mean?”
“I mean,” said the Blackfish, “that you owe His Grace your thanks for his forbearance. He played out that mummer’s farce in the Great Hall so as not to shame you before your own people. Had it been me I would have flayed you for your stupidity rather than praising this folly of the fords.”
“Good men died to defend those fords, Uncle.” Edmure sounded outraged. “What, is no one to win victories but the Young Wolf? Did I steal some glory meant for you, Robb?”             “Your Grace,” Robb corrected, icy. “You took me for your king, Uncle. Or have you forgotten that as well?”
The Blackfish said, “You were commanded to hold Riverrun, Edmure, no more.”
“I held Riverrun, and I bloodied Lord Tywin’s nose—”
So you did,” said Robb. “But a bloody nose won’t win the war, will it? Did you ever think to ask yourself why we remained in the west so long after Oxcross? You knew I did not have enough men to threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock.”
“Why . . . there were other castles . . . gold, cattle . . . ”
You think we stayed for plunder?” Robb was incredulous. “Uncle, I wanted Lord Tywin to come west.”     

"We were all horsed,” Ser Brynden said. “The Lannister host was mainly foot. We planned to run Lord Tywin a merry chase up and down the coast, then slip behind him to take up a strong defensive position athwart the gold road, at a place my scouts had found where the ground would have been greatly in our favor. If he had come at us there, he would have paid a grievous price. But if he did not attack, he would have been trapped in the west, a thousand leagues from where he needed to be. All the while we would have lived off his land, instead of him living off ours.”
“Lord Stannis was about to fall upon King’s Landing,” Robb said. “He might have rid us of Joffrey, the queen, and the Imp in one red stroke. Then we might have been able to make a peace.”
Edmure looked from uncle to nephew. “You never told me.”
“I told you to hold Riverrun, “ said Robb. “What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?”

<snip>

“Edmure looked ill. “I never meant . . . never, Robb, you must let me make amends. I will lead the van in the next battle!”

<snip>

“We must win back the Freys,” said Robb. “With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires . . . apologies, honors, lands, gold . . . there must be something that would soothe his pride . . . ”
“Not something,” said Catelyn. “Someone.”

<snip>

“It must happen,” said Catelyn, though not gladly. “I have no more wish to suffer Walder Frey’s insults and complaints than you do, Brother, but I see little choice here. Without this wedding, Robb’s cause is lost. Edmure, we must accept.”
“We must accept?” he echoed peevishly. “I don’t see you offering to become the ninth Lady Frey, Cat.”
“The eighth Lady Frey is still alive and well, so far as I know,” she replied. Thankfully. Otherwise it might well have come to that, knowing Lord Walder.
The Blackfish said, “I am the last man in the Seven Kingdoms to tell anyone who they must wed, Nephew. Nonetheless, you did say something of making amends for your Battle of the Fords.”

 

ETA: apologies but something's gone wonky and all italics now vanish from my quotes. 

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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1 hour ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

It needed to be someone with Stark Blood.

 

So no one.

Like literally anyone noble house in the north has stark blood.  They're all practically cousins Thanks to thousands of years of crafting marriage alliances to consolidate power,. The Karstarks would seem the closest and the most logical choice if the whole children murder thing didn't happen and Robb didn't take lord Larstarks head if not Jon.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Like literally anyone noble house in the north.  Thanks to thousands of years of crafting marriage alliances to consolidate power, just about every house has Stark blood in them. The Karstarks would seem the closest and the most logical choice if the whole children murder thing didn't happen and Robb didn't take lord Larstarks head if not Jon.

No, that wouldn't  work either. Robb wants to avoid the chaos that would ensue if he dies w/o heir, and the chances of something like this causing the northern lords to fight among themselves is too great to risk it.

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12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, that wouldn't  work either. Robb wants to avoid the chaos that would ensue if he dies w/o heir, and the chances of something like this causing the northern lords to fight among themselves is too great to risk it.

And Jon who'd have no real political or military support, a strange boy who'd foresaken his oaths wouldn't cause an uproar? The Karstark make up the bulk of Robb's army, are(were) respected and the closest cousins the Starks have.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And Jon who'd have no real political or military support, a strange boy who'd foresaken his oaths wouldn't cause an uproar? 

Jon is not a strange boy, he is a Stark by blood - regardless of whether he is Ned's or Lyanna's - and that will carry more weight w/ the northern lords than you can imagine.

And Robb's plan was to legitimise him, name him heir and find a way to get the NW to release Jon. He even brings up what the Lannisters did to Selmy. So, in this scenario Jon wouldn't have forsaken his vows. 

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9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And Jon who'd have no real political or military support, a strange boy who'd foresaken his oaths wouldn't cause an uproar? 

Jon is Eddard Stark's natural son, raised in Winterfell same as Robb. Everyone who's visited Winterfell knows him well enough - he was hidden from the royals, but Alys Kastark remembers dancing with him at a feast... bastards aren't held in high regard in that society, but they can be respected, there are several examples of it happening. And he wouldn't be foresaking his vows, he would receive a royal decree that lifted the vows he took as Snow as he became a Stark.

Edited by Lady Dacey

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9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jon is not a strange boy, he is a Stark by blood - regardless of whether he is Ned's or Lyanna's - and that will carry more weight w/ the northern lords than you can imagine.

And Robb's plan was to legitimise him, name him heir and find a way to get the NW to release Jon. He even brings up what the Lannisters did to Selmy. So, in this scenario Jon wouldn't have forsaken his vows. 

Yeah, dude I knew what Robb's plan was.Tthe vows are for life are for life. What the Laninsters did was practically illegal to Selmy. Hell even then you can see it as the king's right to dismiss his protectors if he wants even if they are in in the Kingsguard. The NW's has no such technicality, even if the high comman said it was ok Jon would be in violation of his oaths to actually accept Robb's offer. He has Stark blood and the classical features but he is unknown. Visiting nobles may have seen him sulking across Winterfell and guest Ned favored him but how sure is it really there wouldn't still be fights over who'd suceed Robb?  A bastard is still a bastard and even if legitimized by Jon and having Stark blood I can imagine there being fallout from such a decision. 

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A Karstark is possible and much more socially, legally, and politically acceptable than Jon.  The Starks have to know that they need to bring the Karstarks back in the fold.  

This can have interesting possibilities since Karstark lands may end up with a Thenn.  It's a scandal in the making but if Stannis, Jon, and Roose are no longer in the picture the north could end up in the hands of the barbarians.  

 

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41 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah, dude I knew what Robb's plan was.Tthe vows are for life are for life. What the Laninsters did was practically illegal to Selmy. Hell even then you can see it as the king's right to dismiss his protectors if he wants even if they are in in the Kingsguard. The NW's has no such technicality, even if the high comman said it was ok Jon would be in violation of his oaths to actually accept Robb's offer. He has Stark blood and the classical features but he is unknown. Visiting nobles may have seen him sulking across Winterfell and guest Ned favored him but how sure is it really there wouldn't still be fights over who'd suceed Robb?  A bastard is still a bastard and even if legitimized by Jon and having Stark blood I can imagine there being fallout from such a decision. 

If you knew then why did you say otherwise in the post I replied to? And what does it mean when something is "practically illegal", but happens anyway? 

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23 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

A Karstark is possible and much more socially, legally, and politically acceptable than Jon.  The Starks have to know that they need to bring the Karstarks back in the fold.  

This can have interesting possibilities since Karstark lands may end up with a Thenn.  It's a scandal in the making but if Stannis, Jon, and Roose are no longer in the picture the north could end up in the hands of the barbarians.  

 

The thenn marriage will doubtless come to bite Jon in the house if he does try for kingship. Rumours will circulate that  says he's unleashed the savages in the realm and even is selling noble girls to their Chiefs.

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19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

If you knew then why did you say otherwise in the post I replied to? And what does it mean when something is "practically illegal", but happens anyway? 

I didn't. I was simply questioning Robb's choice. I wasn't asking what he planned I. And for when something illegal happens it's a crime? But while the dismissal of a Kingsguard by the king can fall into a legal grey area, the dismal of a brother from the NW cannot, the high command of the watch or lord commander can't just release a brother from his oaths, they don't have that authority.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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