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Who would be the best King from the WoFK

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4 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Joffrey sucks but with Tywin as his Hand the realm would prosper. 

Tywin couldn't handle his own family. That's why his own son killed him.

You say as if this combo didn't get the chance to rule the 7 Kingdoms. It's not even hypothetical-it's a fact they did. How the realm "would" prosper? 

Edited by The Sunland Lord

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On January 3, 2018 at 3:27 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

I wouldn't place too much trust in Noye's evaluations. For a smith he showed little knowledge of metals. Copper is lots more expensive (worth more) than iron, for one thing. He also says that Stannis is iron, hard but brittle. Iron is actually pretty malleable and relatively soft unless it has been given a high carbon content, as in cast iron. And then he says Robert is great, and he turned out to be a lazy, womanizing drunk, though a charming one. 

He's a badass, though, killing Mag the Mighty one-handed. I'll give him that.

And he has'nt seen them since they were literal children-Renly scarce more than a toddler

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On 1/4/2018 at 0:27 AM, Light a wight tonight said:

I wouldn't place too much trust in Noye's evaluations. For a smith he showed little knowledge of metals. Copper is lots more expensive (worth more) than iron, for one thing. He also says that Stannis is iron, hard but brittle. Iron is actually pretty malleable and relatively soft unless it has been given a high carbon content, as in cast iron. And then he says Robert is great, and he turned out to be a lazy, womanizing drunk, though a charming one. 

He's a badass, though, killing Mag the Mighty one-handed. I'll give him that.

I think you have to look at it from a medieval blacksmiths perspective. He forges weapons, what metals are of value then? 

Steel by far is the most worth when forging weapons. It is hard and flexible, both good qualities in swords. Cast Iron (you are correct there, pure iron is malleable but cast iron is what Noye is describing as black and hard and brittle) can be processed to a usable weapon. But copper, that is way to soft to be a usable weapon by itself, and is actually of lower worth than both Steel and cast iron in a medieval society. 

Also, Robert showed great charisma and leading capabilities in his younger years. Adding to his remarkable fighting abilities he was a pretty great person. But by GoT he has fallen pretty low and steel is not symbolic for ruling. I guess all metals are useless when not used for their original purpose. 

Main uses of these metals in a medieval setting was:

Steel - weapons, armor; aka fighting
Iron - tools and horseshoes etc.; aka commoner use in everyday life (Steel is better but not affordable for a regular person)
Copper - coins and decorative objects (mostly); aka economy and luxuries

Edited by Mainstroke

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A simple way to measure this would be by ranking their prowess in regards to the law, economy, military and politics, for example. 

Law: Arguable. Joffery clearly at the bottom. 

Economy: Stannis > Renly > Robb > Joffery > Balon

Military: Stannis > Balon > Robb > Renly > Joffery

Politics: Renly > Stannis > Robb > Balon > Joffery

As far as I'm concerned, Stannis seems like the most balanced option. Likely the most open to social reform, given that he gave a smuggler such a prestigious position. 

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2 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

A simple way to measure this would be by ranking their prowess in regards to the law, economy, military and politics, for example. 

That is a very good idea, but I have to say that your assessment of which characters next seems to be rather dubious. 

2 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

Law: Arguable. Joffery clearly at the bottom. 

Why would Joffrey clearly be at the bottom?

Renly is rebelling against the laws of the land, Robb as well but has a more justifiable reason while Stannis is at least convinced that he is right. 

I get that Joffrey is a despicable little shit, but I'm not really sure how he would clearly at the bottom in regards to law? From his perspective he was within his lawful right to execute Ned.

2 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

Economy: Stannis > Renly > Robb > Joffery > Balon

Stannis wanted to ban one of the major business' in the land. He also appointed a smuggler as his chief adviser who has zero experience of rule.  Why is he at the top? Why is Robb above Joffrey? We have seen nothing of Robb's thoughts on economy, a few Northern Lords have complained about not having enough men to bring in the harvest. Robb, for obvious reasons, has put his war ahead of the economy but I'm not sure that qualifes him to be ahead of either Joffrey or Balon. In fact the Iron Islands has the worst resources in the seven kingdoms and yet Balon has been able to rebuild their entire fleet. 

2 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

Military: Stannis > Balon > Robb > Renly > Joffery

Sure. 

2 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

Politics: Renly > Stannis > Robb > Balon > Joffery

Robb had many of his key men turn against him. How is he better at politics than Balon? Joffrey's government were able to keep the Arryns and Martells neutral and bring the Tyrells on side through negotiation. How exactly is he bottom?

How is Stannis second from top?

 

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8 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

None of the five were any good.  If they were, they would not be part of the WOTFK. 

They let their own personal ambition tear the kingdom apart.  All of them can be blamed but let me pick on Robb to use an example.  Robb rebelled against his king because he felt Dad got the shaft.  That's not a good reason to march an army south just to protect one Stark.  Robb should have crawled to King's Landing to make peace with his king even if it meant risking his life and his family.  I will grant that it is easy for me to say this because I don't care for the Starks.  The life of the Starks is not worth going to war over.   

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15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would Joffrey clearly be at the bottom?

Renly is rebelling against the laws of the land, Robb as well but has a more justifiable reason while Stannis is at least convinced that he is right. 

I get that Joffrey is a despicable little shit, but I'm not really sure how he would clearly at the bottom in regards to law? From his perspective he was within his lawful right to execute Ned.

Because I'm proposing that we measure each person by their prowess. Joffery's reasoning for any action he commits is "I am king!" Granted, the king can effectively do whatever the hell he wants to, as long as his actions doesn't turn vassals against him, but he hasn't shown any interest in administering the law either. When Ned is administering the law as Hand of the King, where is Joffery? Bear in mind that this will be his duty in the future. We know that Robb, for example, frequently sat or stood next to Ned so that Ned could show him how a ruler is supposed to act. Which is obviously also Roberts fault: for being a useless king and a useless role model, but this excuse didn't apply to Rhaegar, who, despite whatever controversy he stirred, still tried to break free from his father's influence.

Then there's the matter of Mycah. Where Joffery is acting totally contrary to the duties of a ruler. The feudal system still has concurring rights and duties. A king has rights and duties towards his subjects. During this event, Joffery acted conversely to his duty to protect the smallfolk. Why? Because he's a sadistic asshole, yes, but also because he has no sense of duty. He simply does not care. And that's why I rank him at the very bottom. 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis wanted to ban one of the major business' in the land. He also appointed a smuggler as his chief adviser who has zero experience of rule.  Why is he at the top? Why is Robb above Joffrey? We have seen nothing of Robb's thoughts on economy, a few Northern Lords have complained about not having enough men to bring in the harvest. Robb, for obvious reasons, has put his war ahead of the economy but I'm not sure that qualifes him to be ahead of either Joffrey or Balon. In fact the Iron Islands has the worst resources in the seven kingdoms and yet Balon has been able to rebuild their entire fleet. 

Balon is at the bottom because he advocates the old way. "We do not sow!" This system does not build up a kingdom, since he isn't contributing to the economy. Joffery follows next, because, again, he simply does not care a bit about his duties as king. Please note that even Bran has put more effort into ruling than Joffery in AGoT. Even if Bran didn't understand what was happening, he still tried. And, again, we know that Robb stood next to Ned throughout the years so as to learn his duty. By virtue of putting in some effort, he's already more adept than Joffery. Davos's appointment doesn't speak against Stannis as far as economics is concerned. On the contrary, Davos probably understands the economy better than most.

Stannis wanted to ban prostitution in King's Landing, as he did on Dragonstone, sure, but this also implies a few things. One, prostitution is not that major of an economical force so that it positively influences Westeros, or that the taxation gained is not sufficient, perhaps due to fraud. Secondly, Stannis must have taken the economical impact into account, given that he had banned it on Dragonstone previously. He must posses some inkling of understanding of economics to propose such an action, since he wouldn't (and hasn't) outright bankrupted a region due to it (I know he took a loan; this was for a different matter). 

You are right, though. You can easily argue that Renly stands above Stannis in this area, but I have yet to see Renly acting as a participant in the economy at all. We know Stannis understands loans, we know Stannis understands supply and demand, we know Stannis understands macro, micro and market economics. Renly is 'featless', though I put him above Robb due to the age difference and the fact that Renly was lord of the Storm's End, whereas Robb had not ruled the North for nearly long enough to render judgement. 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. 

Robb had many of his key men turn against him. How is he better at politics than Balon? Joffrey's government were able to keep the Arryns and Martells neutral and bring the Tyrells on side through negotiation. How exactly is he bottom?

How is Stannis second from top?

Diplomacy obviously exists internally and externally. Most seem content to follow Balon into war, so he's got internal diplomacy taken cared of, but acting as an aggressor when you bear the smallest military is surefire way to screw yourself over. There is no way for Balon to hold on to any land he manages to take. When things calm down, be it 5 years or 10 years later, he'll lose everything again. Had he allied himself with either the Iron Throne or Robb or Stannis or Renly, he would most likely have benefited far more and fallen into good (better) grace. His actions to go to war is idiotic, simply put. 

Joffery's government, sure. Not Joffery. If you want to congratulate anyone, congratulate Tywin or Cersei, even. What role, exactly, did Joffery play or put into effect? Again, I'm trying to measure each individual's prowess, not the prowess of their court. 

Robb did have many of his key men turn against him, but I still place him above a clueless Joffery and a no-sense-of-self-preservation Balon, since he, as a boy king, still managed to rally his vassals to his cause and inspire loyalty. Who would die for Joffery? 

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29 minutes ago, Seeeyeare said:

Stannis wanted to ban prostitution in King's Landing, as he did on Dragonstone, sure, but this also implies a few things. One, prostitution is not that major of an economical force so that it positively influences Westeros, or that the taxation gained is not sufficient, perhaps due to fraud. Secondly, Stannis must have taken the economical impact into account, given that he had banned it on Dragonstone previously. He must posses some inkling of understanding of economics to propose such an action, since he wouldn't (and hasn't) outright bankrupted a region due to it (I know he took a loan; this was for a different matter). 

Or he's so staunchly against something he sees as immoral he's willingly to ban it-regardless of the economic benifits it provides to a place-which would be a lot since men love whores. Just because he proposes such an action doesn't in it of itself show he has any understanding of economics, nor do we really know how the ban has hurt DS local economy. 

 

36 minutes ago, Seeeyeare said:

Then there's the matter of Mycah. Where Joffery is acting totally contrary to the duties of a ruler. The feudal system still has concurring rights and duties. A king has rights and duties towards his subjects. During this event, Joffery acted conversely to his duty to protect the smallfolk. Why? Because he's a sadistic asshole, yes, but also because he has no sense of duty. He simply does not care. And that's why I rank him at the very bottom. 

Still Robb and Renly committed the worst crime in society-treason. That alone surpasses Joffery bullying some random butcher's boy.

 

38 minutes ago, Seeeyeare said:

Because I'm proposing that we measure each person by their prowess. Joffery's reasoning for any action he commits is "I am king!" Granted, the king can effectively do whatever the hell he wants to, as long as his actions doesn't turn vassals against him, but he hasn't shown any interest in administering the law either. When Ned is administering the law as Hand of the King, where is Joffery? Bear in mind that this will be his duty in the future. We know that Robb, for example, frequently sat or stood next to Ned so that Ned could show him how a ruler is supposed to act. Which is obviously also Roberts fault: for being a useless king and a useless role model, but this excuse didn't apply to Rhaegar, who, despite whatever controversy he stirred, still tried to break free from his father's influence.

Not necessarily, he's shown quite frequently he's totally interested in administrating "Justice" for the crimes he sees being commited in his city specificly against him.

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21 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Still Robb and Renly committed the worst crime in society-treason. That alone surpasses Joffery bullying some random butcher's boy.

 

Not necessarily, he's shown quite frequently he's totally interested in administrating "Justice" for the crimes he sees being commited in his city specificly against him.

To "be above the law" does not make one lawful. We have several instances in our own world of people with diplomatic immunity committing crimes. 

I would also place Joffrey at the very bottom of law since he has no inkling of what the laws of the land actually is. Administering "justice" on a whim is not lawful, it is a despicable boy's sadistic relief. I'm fairly sure he would let a person he likes run around killing and raping freely shielding him from all repercussions, not a splendid act of upholding the law...

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18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is a very good idea, but I have to say that your assessment of which characters next seems to be rather dubious. 

Why would Joffrey clearly be at the bottom?

Renly is rebelling against the laws of the land, Robb as well but has a more justifiable reason while Stannis is at least convinced that he is right. 

I get that Joffrey is a despicable little shit, but I'm not really sure how he would clearly at the bottom in regards to law? From his perspective he was within his lawful right to execute Ned.

:rolleyes::laugh:

An inexhaustive list of Joffrey's views on laws, actions, and what he generally does:

  • Lied about Mycah, Arya attacking him
  • Beats Sansa for her brother's "crimes" (obviously open to individual interpretation)
  • Demanding protesters be killed for throwing poop at him
  • Orders Ser Dontos drowned in wine for being drunk
  • Dismisses Barristan from the KG
  • Tries to kill Bran for being a cripple
  • Demand all traitorous families, including people who've not fought nor could if they wanted to, be killed to a person

People's opinion of Joffrey:

  • Joffrey is truly a little shit - Jon
  • About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I'd stake my soul on it. - Robert
  • The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned? - Robert
  • Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. - Tywin
  • "Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third." - Tyrion
  • Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt. And because he deserved to die - Jaime

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Or he's so staunchly against something he sees as immoral he's willingly to ban it-regardless of the economic benifits it provides to a place-which would be a lot since men love whores. Just because he proposes such an action doesn't in it of itself show he has any understanding of economics, nor do we really know how the ban has hurt DS local economy. 

Is there any indication that it hurt Dragonstone? If no evidence is provided that it has, why should we assume that the banning of prostitution has had a tremendous effect on the economy? No one in their right mind would place a ban on something that is sure to destroy an economy. 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Still Robb and Renly committed the worst crime in society-treason. That alone surpasses Joffery bullying some random butcher's boy.

What constitutes as 'the worst crime' depends on your perspective. Some say it's the breaking of guest's right. Some say kingslaying. The winners determine who is right and who is wrong. If you hold that Robb and Renly are treasonous, you also hold that Robert and his entire (supposed) line is founded on treason. 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Not necessarily, he's shown quite frequently he's totally interested in administrating "Justice" for the crimes he sees being commited in his city specificly against him.

Can you name an example? Does he understand where his right to administer the law stems from? Because shouting "I am king!" is not really a source of law. Sure, he may get away with it, but that also contributes to his nigh 0% approval rating.

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27 minutes ago, Seeeyeare said:

Is there any indication that it hurt Dragonstone? If no evidence is provided that it has, why should we assume that the banning of prostitution has had a tremendous effect on the economy? No one in their right mind would place a ban on something that is sure to destroy an economy. 

Destroy? Well, no it probably didn't do that but it is an extremely lucrative buisness, that many poor women opt to for a living and many men go to for entertainment-removing such a buisness always hurts a place's economy. Hell to pay   Stannis's didn't care.  He thought it was wrong and whatever benefit could have from it wouldn't justify it. 

 

31 minutes ago, Seeeyeare said:

What constitutes as 'the worst crime' depends on your perspective. Some say it's the breaking of guest's right. Some say kingslaying. The winners determine who is right and who is wrong. If you hold that Robb and Renly are treasonous, you also hold that Robert and his entire (supposed) line is founded on treason. 

This society(and most societies) treason does take the take the cake. It's not 

 

33 minutes ago, Seeeyeare said:

an you name an example? Does he understand where his right to administer the law stems from? Because shouting "I am king!" is not really a source of law. Sure, he may get away with it, but that also contributes to his nigh 0% approval rating.

Certianly-executing Ned Stark for treason. He understands due to his blood which has granted him the position of King  he's a right to administrate Justice 

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7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Destroy? Well, no it probably didn't do that but it is an extremely lucrative buisness, that many poor women opt to for a living and many men go to for entertainment-removing such a buisness always hurts a place's economy. Hell to pay   Stannis's didn't care.  He thought it was wrong and whatever benefit could have from it wouldn't justify it. 

You'll need to properly analyse the effect of prostitution on an economy such as King's Landing's. It's obvious that it would have adverse effects on the local economy. The question remains if it serves as proof of Stannis's supposed incompetence as far as economics is concerned. I see no such indication. 

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

This society(and most societies) treason does take the take the cake. It's not 

So then Robert committed the worst crime imaginable, according to you. Why is he exempt?

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Certianly-executing Ned Stark for treason. He understands due to his blood which has granted him the position of King  he's a right to administrate Justice 

This is a rather shallow understanding of law. 

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4 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

This is a rather shallow understanding of law. 

For his context of a feudal society not completely. Ask any lord what gives them the right to declare one of their legally recognized subjects guilty or innocent of a crime they're accused of and they'll say their blood gives them that right. Stannis, Eddard, Robb, their ability to actually decide if one of their subjects is guilty or innocent rests entirely on who their family is and their place in it. Now, is it that simple? Not really for a monarch in a feudal society. Though supposedlbly having a divine right to rule he or she can be replaced if enough the powers(major houses), of the society decide his rule is not their benifit.  

 

4 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

rt committed the worst crime imaginable, according to you. Why is he exempt?

Did I say he was?

 

4 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

You'll need to properly analyse the effect of prostitution on an economy such as King's Landing's. It's obvious that it would have adverse effects on the local economy. The question remains if it serves as proof of Stannis's supposed incompetence as far as economics is concerned. I see no such indication. 

This is what we mostly have of his track record on something involving him and economics. And it shows he's willingly to let the feeling of "it just feels wrong" to cost the community a lot of people rely on to make ends meet and brings in a lot of money to which the goverment can task. If you can point to something else involving economics and Stannis please do so, but if not what we have of him doesn't really show him in a good light.

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On 12/31/2017 at 11:33 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Because Noye had the right of it, "And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day".

The same Noye that only knew Renly when he was six and is completely wrong about both Robert and Stannis to boot?

Quote

Renly is too vain and too interested in himself to be a good king.

Don't see how that it is different from any of the other claimants.

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15 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

For his context of a feudal society not completely. Ask any lord what gives them the right to declare one of their legally recognized subjects guilty or innocent of a crime they're accused of and they'll say their blood gives them that right. Stannis, Eddard, Robb, their ability to actually decide if one of their subjects is guilty or innocent rests entirely on who their family is and their place in it. Now, is it that simple? Not really for a monarch in a feudal society. Though supposedlbly having a divine right to rule he or she can be replaced if enough the powers(major houses), of the society decide his rule is not their benifit.  

Then we have Ned executing a deserter. Clearly his decision to execute the man doesn't stem from his rights as a feudal lord, but the fact that deserting is in itself punishable. Then you have punishment of slavery, which again, doesn't stem just from your right as a lord.  We have examples of law that does stem from the mere fact that someone is lord, and that would be first night. Though it may be a tradition, it was definitely treated as law, until it was rendered illegal. And we have the faith of the seven's duel by combat, etc. So at this point, we already have evidence of rights and duties and we have evidence of the fact that a lord's (and monarch's) rights have limits. 

That is, again, not to say that a monarch couldn't do whatever he pleases, but then he had to make very sure of it that he didn't infuriate his subjects, both vassals and the common folk. Joffery's understanding is limited to that of a tyrant's. And from the rebellion it caused, it's clear to see it. 

Quote

Did I say he was?

How can you commit treason against someone who is in position by way of treason? At that point, all legitimacy of rule has already diminished. So what exactly were you arguing, then? 

Quote

 

This is what we mostly have of his track record on something involving him and economics. And it shows he's willingly to let the feeling of "it just feels wrong" to cost the community a lot of people rely on to make ends meet and brings in a lot of money to which the goverment can task. If you can point to something else involving economics and Stannis please do so, but if not what we have of him doesn't really show him in a good light.

It wouldn't be the first time people implemented legislature that adversely effected a nation's economy. The ban against alcohol in 1920s America  gave rise to another black market good and reduced tax astoundingly. Nonetheless, economists still believed that a rise of other products would make up for the ban, like soft drinks. This action doesn't diminish from the fact that they were economists, however, or that they understood economics.  I only see this as Stannis prioritising whatever sense of mystery 'whatever' above the economy, but not necessarily an absence of understanding of economics. 

Edited by Seeeyeare
Correction

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3 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

Then we have Ned executing a deserter. Clearly his decision to execute the man doesn't stem from his rights as a feudal lord, but the fact that deserting is in itself punishable

Clearly, the reason he's able to pass judgment on the deserter stems from it being his right as a feudal lord. 

 

4 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

Then you have punishment of slavery, which again, doesn't stem just from your right as a lord. 

Are you referring to Mormont-poacher fiasco? If so, Eddard would be the only one besides king who could pass judgement on whether or not Jorah is guilty of the crimes he was accused. If say a peasant decides Jorah is guilty of selling people to be enslaved, and kills Jorah(regardless of the evidence), he'd be seen as having committed murder since it's not his or her place to pass judgment on a lord and administer what they see as justice.

 

4 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

Though it may be a tradition, it was definitely treated as law, until it was rendered illegal.

It was treated as something(at least if we could believe Roose), something that a lord can partake in. I'm sure it wasn't mandatory.

 

4 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

And we have the faith of the seven's duel by combat, etc

And????

 

5 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

So at this point, we already have evidence of rights and duties and we have evidence of the fact that a lord's (and monarch's) rights have limits. 

Sure they do. That wasn't really in dispute

 

5 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

That is, again, not to say that a monarch couldn't do whatever he pleases, but then he had to make very sure of it that he didn't infuriate his subjects, both vassals and the common folk.

Ol? Like, where did I state anything that disputes that idea?

 

5 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

How can you commit treason against someone who is in position by way of treason? At that point, all legitimacy of rule has already diminished. So what exactly were you arguing, then? 

Quote

I was arguing Renly's and Robb's crime far surpass the bullying of Mychach. So, it'd be impossible to commit treason against the crown while a Baratheon(with Targs still living) wears it? Ok that's something to ponder.

 

5 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:
Quote

 

It wouldn't be the first time people implemented legislature that adversely effected a nation's economy. The ban against alcohol in 1920s America  gave rise to another black market good and reduced tax astoundingly. Nonetheless, economists still believed that a rise of other products would make up for the ban, like soft drinks. This action doesn't diminish from the fact that they were economists, however, or that they understood economics.  I only see this as Stannis prioritising whatever sense of mystery 'whatever' above the economy, but not necessarily an absence of understanding of economics. 

Maybe those economists were poor ones? And since the prositution ban is the only thing apparently we can measure Stannis by in terms of economics, he certianly shouldn't be placed at the top for it shows either he doesn't understand how banning such a thing can hurt the economy and/or doesn't care.

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6 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

ffery's understanding is limited to that of a tyrant's. And from the rebellion it caused, it's clear to see i

In terms of administrating law? Meh, it's the understanding of a typical feudal lord. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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