Garth's Empire of the Dawn Family.

[Back door hodor]

Do you believe AA and the Last Hero to be the same person?(Brandon the Builder in this case?)

[The Fattest Leech]

35 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Rhoynar and Valyrians? Or the Andals and the Rhoynar?

The Andals, like the Rhoynar, and the Sarnori, have Dark Hair and Dark Eyes.

I know this is not what the Maesters teach. This is what i think Martin is hinting at in his other clues. 

For exp. House Hoare is said to be black of hair and black of heart due to their Andal taint. 

The First Men were likely the Valyrians or pre-Valyrians rather. Part of which is mentioned and hinted at in the Gardener section of TWOIAF in which they first mention Serwyn of the Mirror shield having served in the King's Guard to a Targaryen King. Then turns around a page or two later and even list the Gardener King he served. Hinting among other places that the OG first men were Valyrians and that chivalry came from them.

The Andals tell lots of lies, like they built the round towered castle and that first men built in square. Even though the buildings of Braavos and Pentos are square and the Andals didn't leave a single ruined castle in Essos. Let alone a castle with round towers. 

The Eyrie was even built out of jealousy of the castles of the first men. after that Arryn king had seen them.

(Quoter broken) 

Aah, that makes better sense. I misread what you wrote earlier and thought you meant the Rhoynar were tied to the Valyrians in some other way. 

Interesting take in the following bits with the Andals telling lots of lies. 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

(Quoter broken) 

Aah, that makes better sense. I misread what you wrote earlier and thought you meant the Rhoynar were tied to the Valyrians in some other way. 

Interesting take in the following bits with the Andals telling lots of lies. 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149257-andal-lies/#comment-8083144

This is a short thread i did once collecting some of the Andal lies and using quotes

The part about the Falcon crown is interesting given Arty's earliest possible date is 2000 years ago. Yet he is being crowned 1300 years ago? This also happens to be when the Andals took Old Town and the Starry Sept was built. 

Almost indicating Artys lived the whole time, till being crowned after the Andals took Old Town. This is an interesting picture IMO

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

When the Andals came, the Hightowers were amongst the first lords of Westeros to welcome them. "Wars are bad for trade," said Lord Dorian Hightower, when he set aside his wife of twenty years, the mother of his children, to take an Andal princess as his bride. His grandson Lord Damon (the Devout) was the first to accept the Faith. To honor the new gods, he built the first sept in Oldtown and six more elsewhere in his realm. When he died prematurely of a bad belly, Septon Robeson became regent for his newborn son, ruling Oldtown in all but name for the next twenty years and ultimately becoming the first High Septon. The boy he raised and trained, Lord Triston Hightower, raised the Starry Sept in his honor after his passing.

 

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

The Lord's Sept joined in a moment later, then the Seven Shrines from their gardens across the Honeywine, and finally the Starry Sept that had been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon landed at King's Landing. 

 

 

This is all 1300 years ago. Also at the same time 1300 years ago.

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

 

 

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

It was not until some thousand years before the Conquest, when the fugitive Manderlys came to the North and swore their oaths at the Wolf's Den, that the problem of the defense of the White Knife—the river that provides access into the very heart of the North—was resolved with the creation of White Harbor.

 

So the Manderly's were banished North at that time and Glass Candles brought to Old Town. The Only people going to Old Town in force 1300 years ago were the Andals.

[AlaskanSandman]

19 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Do you believe AA and the Last Hero to be the same person?(Brandon the Builder in this case?)

No, and Yes. I go back and forth on that part. As you can see by my tree, i think there are two main branches to the family at odds. The Targaryen/ Gardener line which is the main line. Then there is the Bastard Stark Line. . With two added bastard branches from House Lannister and House Arryn..

Now firstly, i can't decide when and how the Lannister and Arryn Branch split. For Instance. Lann's mother is rumored to be Florys the fox or Rowan Gold Tree, but who was the Andal father? Same problem for Artys. One parent must be an Andal at least no?

Im not sure if Brandon the Bloody Blade was the first Andal (as a bastard branch) or if it was his son Brandon the Builder. Think of the bastard Orys Baratheon to Aegon Targaryen.

Now, back to AA and LH. Are both a Stark? or is there multiple roles to fill. Brandon the Builder may have been AA while his brother or cousin was the LH. 

I think the past narrative dictates the present, as much as i think the present dictates the past.

AA and LH both had magic swords. But which swords? Ice and Lightbringer sound like different swords. Ice sounds like it could refer to the crystal blades used by the Others and blazoned on the Warrior son's shields. 

Lightbringer sounds different though as it should give off heat and light. Which a ice sword shouldnt do.

That being said. Dawn has a star in its pummel while Lady Forlorn has a heart in its' pummel. Are these reference to the star that fell and the heart that was pierced? Are these swords a reference to AA? Sounds like it.

LH and his sword are given no star or heart symbolism. Just that the Hero met the COTF and then Bran the Builder is Building the wall supposedly. 

So alternatively, it could both be Brandon or not him.

Again, the Ancient sword Ice sounds like the Others blade which is described similarly to the warriors son's blade. 

It would not surprise me if the legends were wrong about something. 

It is up in the air even what was happening when AA stabbed Nissa Nissa. Was he making a magic sword, bringing about dragons, or something else? Turning Nissa Nissa to fire or ice?

By trying to realign the myths, the goal is to try and figure out what martin is saying. Though when stuck, something else is missing usually. Either im not considering another clue or moving wheel. A myth or an anecdote about some historical thing. 

[asongofheresy]

Interesting topic! You have some great threads here are my ideas

• God on Earth - Symeon Star Eyes 

Symeon was a Great Knight that put Star Sapphires in his eyes after he went blind. I think that's a major clue that he was an Other and went beyond the Wall where he witnessed Hellhounds fighting (protectors of Underworld). Star Sapphires are unique gemstones that exhibits asterism, a star with six points is visible - clue to Faith talking about six figures but hiding the seventh? Aegon's relationship to Seven and Six Sentinel Cherry Trees around the Bakkalon figure is important too. Star Sapphires have different colors blue, pink, orange, lavender, black and grey. It is interesting there is no Targaryen whose eye color resembles lavender or pinkish purple gemstones. Although most Star shappires has white stars on it there is a rare type with gold stars. Gold is the prominent color of the Reach. I think Symeon went to Land of Always Winter. 

• Pearl Emperor - House Stark 

Although most will think pearls are supposed to be white we are never told Pearl Emperor had white eyes and we know black or rather grey pearls are a thing and in our story they are not distinguished by their color unlike white pearls. And white pearls seem to be related to White Pearl Color Emperor that lived after Gemstone Emperors - will talk about them! So our Pearl Emperor is Brandon of the Bloody Blade, our Azor Ahai (I am also interested in Gave Greywolf figure) - BotBB is known for his Bloody Blade and the fact he killed so many CotF that Blue Lake turned to Red. Blue/Red Lake is associated with Rose of the Red Lake who was a skinchanger warged to cranes. It is interesting Crane's sigil is Light Blue with Gold Cranes so Symeon Star Eyes had gold stars too. She is the Nissa Nissa/Jonquil of Brandon and I think lake changed color after her sacrifice to create Lady Forlorn. Forlorn means sorrowful, mournful, forsaken, heartbroken, blue, melancholic. Lady Forlorn is a blood thirsty lady with ruby heart and resembles Ice according to Sansa, a Stark with bird association. It is possible Starks loses their blue lady while fighting Andals during Theon's time - I don't know for certain if Lady Forlorn is VS sword. The name Nissa Nissa is also related to water nymphs and Irish myth Neassa whose original name was Assa (means gentle and Neassa means not gentle). Neassa was forced into marriage at swordpoint and become vengeful. Lyanna covered in gore and said to sad in Theon's dream, Jon saying Val will kill her husband on wedding night. It is possible Rose was the Other Queen of NK. Remember HotU and the Blue Heart corrupted. 

• Jade Emperor - House Hightower 

Like pearl, I think color of the Jade Emperor is grey, grey-green, grey-blue rather than Imperial Jade, there seems to another Color Coded Emperor that is named Green Jade, specifically mentioned. House Hightower's sigil is interestingly grey. Their house word is We Light The Way, in darkness? During Long Night? They are the founder of the Citadel and they live in an island called Battle Isle - Battle of what? Dawn? They have tied to Targaryens right from the start. They seem to harbor a dislike for magic though they are associated with glass candless and mysterious black stone. I believe Daeryssa was a descendant of Hightower and they had a dragon Urrax. Which makes me more curious about identity of Urrathon the Night Walker with Glass candles from Qarth. Maester Walys whom I suspect to be child of Maester Walgrave, a Florent sigil with blue flowers + fox hence red wolf cloak of Connington, and Malora Hightower has grey eyes and long face. He is also the Maester mind behind Southorn Ambitions, Archmaester Walgrave thaught Maester Cresset at the Citadel he is also connected to raveny of Citadel which makes it interesting Aegon's return is heralded by white ravens which means Winter. I believe House Hightower is also connected to Ser Wyn of the Mirror Shield a King's Guard for Greenhand that was haunted by ghosts of all knights he killed - maybe a victim of wights? Why also means white and Wynafrei Whent is related to your ei/ai/as name thread. Jade can be green, white, orange, yellow, lavender, grey and black. Though grey Jade is more grey-blue. Most valuable Jade is emerald in color and semi transparent. Jade is referred as Dream Stone and Stone of the Heavens. 

Quote

 

PS ignore the quote please:( 

• Tourmaline emperor - Tourmaline Brotherhood of Qarth and Durrandons 

Tournaline can be in any color really green, pink, green, yellow, colorless, purple, brown, red etc. and dichotomy of two shades is the reason I picked House Durrandon, remember Renly's eyes? Are they blue or green? Are they clear blue like Robert's or deep blue like Stannis'? It is obvious Baratheon features are Durrandon features as Orys had black eyes. There is also Melisandre tied to out Baratheon brothers with her red eyes, Edric Storm and Shireen who are both Florents (blue flower, chink of ice, greyscale being deadly North of the Wall) may end up having important parts to play. Shireen's sacrifice and rivalry between Salladhor Saan and Illyrio with Edric end up with Golden Company and legitimize at the end. It is also interesting Durrandon sigil is a crowned stag which has ties to Green Men with Antlers and Garth Greenhand in original form which would make Durran ancestor of Garth. Durran is also called Godsgrief and had a Goddess as wife, Elenei, his castle the Storm's End is built by Bran the Builder. There is also a Stormlands house called Staedmon with a sigil where a hearth is stabbed by a dagger. 

= I talked about Florents a lot but I don't know where Florys fits = 

• Onyx - Dorne

Onyx can be white, brown and black in color with parallel bandings to it. Now sadly I didn't have a definite association with Onyx at first however I believe Onyx has some relationtion to Dothraki especially to Womb of the World, Mother of the Mountains and Shrinking Sea. Alister Thorne has black eyes of Onyx and we know Dorne is related to the word Thorne/Thorn. House Thronwood is called Bloodroyal and was the most great house of Dorne before arrival of Ny Meria. Think about House Allyrion with Hand on their sigil of Godsgrace amd House Blackmont with possible skinchanging ability to again birds. House Manwoody with skull wearing a crown makes you remember Barrow Kings. Alleras has eyes of Onyx and he is most likely a Jordayne. And he is the riddle, connected to Citadel and a Maester named Mar Wyn. Citadel has green marble spinxes with onyx eyes. Dorne is currently ruled by House Martell whose members also seem to have Onyx eyes and their sigil is Sun pierced with Spear - likely House Karstark with their sun/star and Thenn using weirwood spears with bronze tips and their sigil changing to a red son has importance too. Dragon skills are Onyx too and Dorne cost lives of Daeron I and Rhaenys also claiming Meraxes. Maybe it is related to Hammer of Waters? 

• Topaz Emperor - Garth Greenhand 

Garth has green skin, green hands, green hair, green beard but doesn't have green eyes. Which means he has Golden eyes like Topaz being yellowish brown. Rowan Goldtree has Gold hair, Garth Goldenhand, Oakhearts > enemy with Dorne, Beesburry and Gold bees, Cranes and Golden cranes, Tyrells and Loras' eyes being liquid gold. Loras and Margaery looks more like each other than Cersei and Jaime. Loras is a good jouster and a good rider, Garland is even better, Margaery is associated with birds also a good rider, Willas breeds animals such as hounds, hawked and horses. Luthor Tyrell dies as he was hawking remember Varamyr's quote about skinchangers and birds. Garths antlers will also tie him to Durran and Tourmaline. Queen of Thorns, Lyanna's crown and thorns underneath,  her bethoral to Daeron Targaryen, Illyrio and Redwyne clothes, Topaz siege of Tourmaline with Rebellion. A marriage with Pearl Emperor through Maris the Maid. Giants, Wun Wun and Shireen - again Florys. 

» Is it possible Ser Wyn is of the Vines and Arbor? Wyn/Wyne is also related to vine along with white and Red may also symbolize their red hair? 

• Opal Emperor - House Dondarrion 

Lighting ridge opals with black background and galaxy like patterns that makes you remember House Dondarrion with purple lightning and white stars. Rivalry with Onyx Emperor/Dorne, relation to Tourmaline/Durrandon, Barrow King imagery with Beric, bethoral of Allyria the Amethyst Empress and Opal Emperor. Targaryen connection with Baelor Breakspear, son of Myriah and  Lady Jena. 

• The Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor - House Dayne of Starfall and High Hermitage

We know Amethyst and Bloodstone are brother and sister, we also know first Dayne followed a falling star where he found the heart of it to forge Dawn. We know Arthur Dayne is Sword of the Morning and we know there was a Sword of the Evening, Darkstar is of the Night. Now I believe story of Amethyst and Bloodstone is corrupted as there are tales of Queen of Bloodstone being a monster and also a saviour, decide, Bloodstone is also known as Heliotrope which is also a flower known as Winter Rose and it is poisonous. Although I placed Amethyst and Bloodstone together it is important to remember Bloodstone is a green colored gem with red spots sometime appearing grayish-bluish green. So there could be a connection to House Reed or Crannogman their relation to CotF maybe the villainized Queen was a Child herself, I must also mention Jyana Reed and her namesake Jyana Arryn Jewel of the Vale. 

• White Pearl Color Emperor - Unsullied 

White Pearl Emperor is distinguished as White, it is also said these Emperor's lives their lives as normal men but once they ascend to Throne they burn their manhood, Unsullied sacrifice their manhood to a Goddess, Varys being eunuch and blue flames, Varys apologizing to Kevan before killing him and Sorrowful Men. When Daenerys buys Unsullied there is a mention of white pearls. It is possible Goddess of Unsullied is Dany herself than that makes connection of Blue Heart to Daenerys more significant. 

• Jade Green Color Emperor - Lannisters 

I didn't associated Jade with Lannisters before because Lannisters aren't ancient like other Houses. They drove out Casterlys of their Castle and claim it for themselves. But Jade Color Emperor has specifically green eyes and lives in a palace covered with golden leaves so we have lesser arrivals claiming to be descendant of Garth. 

• Har Loi the Grey King 

Duh. It is obviously the Iron Born with the exception of Goodbrother and maybe Farwynds I think Farwynd could be related to Farmans? Farwynds are also Lord of Love Night, skinchanger, talks about crossing the Street Sea, remember Elissa Farman. The name Har Loi is basically Harlaw which is great if House Harlaw ends up as ruler of Iron Islands. It is interesting Goodbrothers has a hammer as a sigil and called Hammerhorn - maybe CotF tried to sperate Iron Islands from Westerlands/the Reach like Arm of the Dorne? Was there a possible passage before connected to three islands named after Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys? 

[asongofheresy]

Spoiler

fcccc another one good Gd

So I did so much editing but my brain can't stop working at the moment so I remembered Samwell Firestar who burned Old Town thus attacked Jade Emperor is that nod to Bloodstone? It is interesting like Onyx with red star and Opal with white star, Karstark and Thenn sigils we have Firestar whose sigil has a white fallen star. It is interesting House could be both Amethyst empress that fall and the Bloodstone that slayed her to use her heart for his magic sword? 

I didn't sleep for the whole night ridiculous. So if High Hermitage is connected to Bloodstone that would make castle itself Starry Sept of Wisdom. Hermitage means sanctuary, den (Wolf's Den built by Jon Stark), refuge. What if High Hermitage is another Citadel for esoteric teachings that aren't allowed by Maesters? 

= 

Lion of Night - father of God on Earth, related to Casterlys and Hrakkar of Dothrak since they believe they will ascend to heavens to join their forebears. Lion in mythology also include Chimeras, Griffin, Manticore, Spinx and Dragon there is also Hercules and Nemea Lion where he defeats the animal by strangling it and uses its own claws to skin its fur to make a cloak for himself. Onyx means claw btw.

Maiden Maid of Light - same as Maid from the Faith imo also related to Moonmaid constellation, others are Thief (Red Wanderer), Sword of the Morning, Ice Dragon and it's Other rider, Shadowcat. Maiden/Virgin deities are Artemis, Athena, Hestia, Vesta, Diana, Kumari, Hecate, Gefjon, Anat, Electryone, Astraea, Britomaris, Fulla, Umai, Medaina, Minerva, Mut, Bona Dea, Triple Goddess, Bahuchara Mata - there maybe more. Interesting names are Astraea (related to stars), Electryone (related to gemstone kehribar), Umai (if it is really about Turkic myth than she is connected to goose/swan I am not sure now) - I am not sure if virgin birth is related to the myths of Yi Ti. The Smith figure Hephaestus said to born without a father and only to mother Hera, which would make Smith related to AA and also support the idea of AA being a Thief that stole a woman? There is also Egyptian goddess Isis that was worshipped as a Moon goddess and a virgin deity, there is Finnish myth Marjatta where the girl eats lingonberry and becomes pregnant and gives birth to a King. 

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

  Reveal hidden contents

fcccc another one good Gd

So I did so much editing but my brain can't stop working at the moment so I remembered Samwell Firestar who burned Old Town thus attacked Jade Emperor is that nod to Bloodstone? It is interesting like Onyx with red star and Opal with white star, Karstark and Thenn sigils we have Firestar whose sigil has a white fallen star. It is interesting House could be both Amethyst empress that fall and the Bloodstone that slayed her to use her heart for his magic sword? 

I didn't sleep for the whole night ridiculous. So if High Hermitage is connected to Bloodstone that would make castle itself Starry Sept of Wisdom. Hermitage means sanctuary, den (Wolf's Den built by Jon Stark), refuge. What if High Hermitage is another Citadel for esoteric teachings that aren't allowed by Maesters? 

= 

Lion of Night - father of God on Earth, related to Casterlys and Hrakkar of Dothrak since they believe they will ascend to heavens to join their forebears. Lion in mythology also include Chimeras, Griffin, Manticore, Spinx and Dragon there is also Hercules and Nemea Lion where he defeats the animal by strangling it and uses its own claws to skin its fur to make a cloak for himself. Onyx means claw btw.

Maiden Maid of Light - same as Maid from the Faith imo also related to Moonmaid constellation, others are Thief (Red Wanderer), Sword of the Morning, Ice Dragon and it's Other rider, Shadowcat. Maiden/Virgin deities are Artemis, Athena, Hestia, Vesta, Diana, Kumari, Hecate, Gefjon, Anat, Electryone, Astraea, Britomaris, Fulla, Umai, Medaina, Minerva, Mut, Bona Dea, Triple Goddess, Bahuchara Mata - there maybe more. Interesting names are Astraea (related to stars), Electryone (related to gemstone kehribar), Umai (if it is really about Turkic myth than she is connected to goose/swan I am not sure now) - I am not sure if virgin birth is related to the myths of Yi Ti. The Smith figure Hephaestus said to born without a father and only to mother Hera, which would make Smith related to AA and also support the idea of AA being a Thief that stole a woman? There is also Egyptian goddess Isis that was worshipped as a Moon goddess and a virgin deity, there is Finnish myth Marjatta where the girl eats lingonberry and becomes pregnant and gives birth to a King. 

A lot of information to read hahah we seem to differ a lil though in that my op was about the Gem Stone Emperors not being of Westeros. Except for the last son, the BloodStone Emperor, and his father Garth the Opal Emperor. Bloodstone Emperor going to war with Garth's new family in Westeros. Though this is just one interpretation. I could definitely be wrong and this is an are that Martin is more vague about.

Some of the idea comes from biblical accounts and later cultural claims to certain ancient peoples. Now none can claim a line through jesus, but we do get the Danes, who are both listed as possibly one of the Lost tribes of Israel through Dan, or also linked to Troy through Brutus. One Frankish king was said to have a sword made from the spear of destiny that pierced Jesus, Charlemagne, who wielded Joyeuse. One of Charlemagne's descendants Gisela married Rollo. A Norse Viking, who's line would go on to conquer England and be the titular family in the War of the Roses. 

 Charlemagne's paladin, Roland wielded Durendal, the sword of Hector from troy. (Joyeuse is also said to be made from this sword.- So one can imagine both swords were forged from the Spear of Destiny. The splitting of swords mirroring Ice in Asoiaf.)

Troy is also responsible for the founding of the Celts as this line may be where the Danes come from also and the Danish cross looks very much celtic. Troy is also responsible for the founding of Rome through Aeneas and his descendants, Romulus and Remus. Rome who would eventually go to conquer England and build Hadrin's Wall that our story is wrapped around by way of the Ice Wall of Westeros (England in our story). 

Now this is a long way of telling you how the tribes of Dan are possibly connected to Troy and the Celts. Based on geography of Troy and possibility of the Tribes of Israels dispersion through out the western half of the Middle-East. (One would have to assume though that the tribes of Dan gave up their semetic language from the Afro-asiatic branch and spoke the language of the people of the North who speak the Proto-Indo-European languages. Perhaps the tribes of Dan merged with the tribes of Brutus? Fantastical history through myth merged with real history? This is important to what im saying about Garth though. 

The Twelve tribes is where Jesus comes from. From the Clan of Judah. (interestingly the 12 tribes of Irael and the 12 tribes of Arabs come from the same line. The 12 tribes of Arabs is where Babylon and Zoroastrianism comes from. Both tribes coming from Abraham's sons Isaac and Ishmael. 

This is interestingly as Abraham is where Mono-Theism comes from. The tribes of Judah being one which would represent the Gem  Stone family of old, where as the tribe of Dan would represent Garth who left and ended up in Westeros. 

Now all branches tie back to Adam and the Tree of Knowledge from which the Forbidden fruit comes from. (A hardwood tree as it bears fruit rather than acorns). Which leads me into Manna, which leads to the path of the Philosophers stone and it's ability to transmute metals and more.

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    The most commonly mentioned properties are the ability to transmute base metals into gold or silver, and the ability to heal all forms of illness and prolong the life of any person who consumes a small part of the philosopher's stone.^[16] Other mentioned properties include: creation of perpetually burning lamps,^[16] transmutation of common crystals into precious stones and diamonds,^[16] reviving of dead plants,^[16] creation of flexible or malleable glass,^[17] or the creation of a clone or homunculus

Sounds almost like the Black stone/Obsidian from Asoiaf and the guilds of Alchemist like the Maesters and such.

Edit-Forgot to mention that these groups mentioned all come from the son's of Noah. Shem is the Jews and Arabs through Abrahams's sons. Ham is where the Egyptians come from. And through Joseph is where the Trojans-Romans-Danes-Franks and Greeks come from by way of the Greek Titan Lepetos. (Apparently the ancient line used to be giants or titans). So this is the Empire of the Dawn family at its root more or less.  

[AlaskanSandman]

28 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Didn't mean to put this here, meant to edit above post but since it's here, ill continue the legend to England.

So Rome who comes from Aenaeas, would eventually come North to England, possibly for gold, possibly for Tin (rare deposits in Europe) or just on Greek legends which named the Island Albion. 

Rome established rule against the Celtic kingdoms/tribes there till they pull out around 5-600Ad. Leading to the legend of Arthur and his magical sword Excalibur. (Not the sword in the stone according to all legends.) Excalibur comes from the Lady in the Lake. Depending upon legend, Arthur may have been a roman. Either way, he would be from the tribes of Dan according to legends. 

So what became of the sword made from the spear of destiny? Where did Excalibur come from. There are tales for each. Created from an Elf. Lost to some museum and wrapped in a gold band. 
 

Maybe one was the other. Where was the other sword possibly made from the same material as Roland's sword? Could the elf not have split the sword? Could not Excalibur be one of the swords?

I often wonder how much history Martin has read and how much it has inspired him. 

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A lot of information to read hahah we seem to differ a lil though in that my op was about the Gem Stone Emperors not being of Westeros. Except for the last son, the BloodStone Emperor, and his father Garth the Opal Emperor. Bloodstone Emperor going to war with Garth's new family in Westeros. Though this is just one interpretation. I could definitely be wrong and this is an are that Martin is more vague about.

Some of the idea comes from biblical accounts and later cultural claims to certain ancient peoples. Now none can claim a line through jesus, but we do get the Danes, who are both listed as possibly one of the Lost tribes of Israel through Dan, or also linked to Troy through Brutus. One Frankish king was said to have a sword made from the spear of destiny that pierced Jesus, Charlemagne, who wielded Joyeuse. One of Charlemagne's descendants Gisela married Rollo. A Norse Viking, who's line would go on to conquer England and be the titular family in the War of the Roses. 

 Charlemagne's paladin, Roland wielded Durendal, the sword of Hector from troy. (Joyeuse is also said to be made from this sword.- So one can imagine both swords were forged from the Spear of Destiny. The splitting of swords mirroring Ice in Asoiaf.)

Troy is also responsible for the founding of the Celts as this line may be where the Danes come from also and the Danish cross looks very much celtic. Troy is also responsible for the founding of Rome through Aeneas and his descendants, Romulus and Remus. Rome who would eventually go to conquer England and build Hadrin's Wall that our story is wrapped around by way of the Ice Wall of Westeros (England in our story). 

Now this is a long way of telling you how the tribes of Dan are possibly connected to Troy and the Celts. Based on geography of Troy and possibility of the Tribes of Israels dispersion through out the western half of the Middle-East. (One would have to assume though that the tribes of Dan gave up their semetic language from the Afro-asiatic branch and spoke the language of the people of the North who speak the Proto-Indo-European languages. Perhaps the tribes of Dan merged with the tribes of Brutus? Fantastical history through myth merged with real history? This is important to what im saying about Garth though. 

The Twelve tribes is where Jesus comes from. From the Clan of Judah. (interestingly the 12 tribes of Irael and the 12 tribes of Arabs come from the same line. The 12 tribes of Arabs is where Babylon and Zoroastrianism comes from. Both tribes coming from Abraham's sons Isaac and Ishmael. 

This is interestingly as Abraham is where Mono-Theism comes from. The tribes of Judah being one which would represent the Gem  Stone family of old, where as the tribe of Dan would represent Garth who left and ended up in Westeros. 

Now all branches tie back to Adam and the Tree of Knowledge from which the Forbidden fruit comes from. (A hardwood tree as it bears fruit rather than acorns). Which leads me into Manna, which leads to the path of the Philosophers stone and it's ability to transmute metals and more.

Sounds almost like the Black stone/Obsidian from Asoiaf and the guilds of Alchemist like the Maesters and such.

Edit-Forgot to mention that these groups mentioned all come from the son's of Noah. Shem is the Jews and Arabs through Abrahams's sons. Ham is where the Egyptians come from. And through Joseph is where the Trojans-Romans-Danes-Franks and Greeks come from by way of the Greek Titan Lepetos. (Apparently the ancient line used to be giants or titans). So this is the Empire of the Dawn family at its root more or less.  

I know about the tribe of Dan but since Jacob* also had two concubines it is possible Dan may not be counted as Matriarchal lineage - depends on his mother. Now as a Qur'anic Muslim I have slightly different beliefs than Christians and Jews, I only believe in Qur'an though I am interested in Aramaic Torah and pre-Islamic poetry - I will suggest this link about Arabia Felix to understand Quranic history better, and our views about shared characters, maybe you will be able to find some links to Asoiaf though I seriously doubt that ever happening. 

Spoiler

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609982.0;all

About Maiden Maid of Light I searched more about Astraea and Electroyne - Astraea was daughter of God of Stars and Goddess of Dawn and related to Justice. Electroyne was goddess of morning and was known to wake people up every day. She was daughter of Titan Lord of the Sun Helios and also patron of Rhodes, she had seven brothers who started the tradition of making sacrifices to Athena - another Virgin Goddess figure. 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Jova Snow said:

I know about the tribe of Dan but since Joseph also had two concubines it is possible Dan may not be counted as Matriarchal lineage - depends on his mother. Now as a Qur'anic Muslim I have slightly different beliefs than Christians and Jews, I only believe in Qur'an though I am interested in Aramaic Torah and pre-Islamic poetry - I will suggest this link about Arabia Felix to understand Quranic history better, and our views about shared characters, maybe you will be able to find some links to Asoiaf though I seriously doubt that ever happening. 

  Hide contents

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609982.0;all

About Maiden Maid of Light I searched more about Astraea and Electroyne - Astraea was daughter of God of Stars and Goddess of Dawn and related to Justice. Electroyne was goddess of morning and was known to wake people up every day. She was daughter of Titan Lord of the Sun Helios and also patron of Rhodes, she had seven brothers who started the tradition of making sacrifices to Athena - another Virgin Goddess figure. 

Ill definitely have to check that out. I love history and myth and cultural views on their legends. 

A lot of what i talk of above obviously comes down through European legends and their attempts to link their rule back to the ancients. (Not quite sure how Rome ties back to Egyptian kings though yet, though they made this claim.)

And i greatly find interesting the idea of Matriarchal vs Patriarchal lineages as x and y go unchanged down different paths. If one imagines a magical figure born of a special line xy and it being split to be re-united one day for great good or the such. Makes for great legends, historicity, and just good story telling.

I speak on all of this openly with no particular religious view guiding my thoughts and with the utter most respect for every ones views. This is more of a theoretical idea that all legends are connected in some way as we all tie back to one man or woman. Adam and Eve. Which even science says is so, though through a slightly different picture. 

So in speaking about this mythological approach to literary free licence in a fantastical retelling of sorts. And that influence on Martin's novel.

As he obviously doesn't let any one religion guide his world, and lets it be as richly layered as ours in as much as he can. Though the question of origins seems lingering still. Though i think Martin will leave his as vague as our own haha we arent meant to fully understand his as we dont understand our own in that context.  

Sorry if that seemed a lil rambling hahah 

There was an aspect of the mono-theism vs poly theism i left more vague in respects for all cultures but an interesting one none the less, especially when actually studying doctrine. Like sin and where your soul goes. A wonderful but touchy subject, understandably.

And i greatly apologize if any of this seems offensive by comparing in this context, not my intent at all. These legends are very much alive in our world and though can be influence in much literature, should still be discussed respectfully  

[AlaskanSandman]

24 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I know about the tribe of Dan but since Joseph also had two concubines it is possible Dan may not be counted as Matriarchal lineage - depends on his mother. Now as a Qur'anic Muslim I have slightly different beliefs than Christians and Jews, I only believe in Qur'an though I am interested in Aramaic Torah and pre-Islamic poetry - I will suggest this link about Arabia Felix to understand Quranic history better, and our views about shared characters, maybe you will be able to find some links to Asoiaf though I seriously doubt that ever happening. 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609982.0;all

About Maiden Maid of Light I searched more about Astraea and Electroyne - Astraea was daughter of God of Stars and Goddess of Dawn and related to Justice. Electroyne was goddess of morning and was known to wake people up every day. She was daughter of Titan Lord of the Sun Helios and also patron of Rhodes, she had seven brothers who started the tradition of making sacrifices to Athena - another Virgin Goddess figure. 

I began a long time ago trying to trace my own origins and have since had my Y chromosome tested, and want to test my X. My Y comes from Celtic while much of what i know of my X comes from Norse and Germanic tribes. 

I have studied migration routes of humans based off genes, along with language branches, mythology, Ice ages, primitive tools and the such. I find it all a very interesting subject.  Especially the America's where all split off's seem to be meeting up.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ill definitely have to check that out. I love history and myth and cultural views on their legends. 

A lot of what i talk of above obviously comes down through European legends and their attempts to link their rule back to the ancients. (Not quite sure how Rome ties back to Egyptian kings though yet, though they made this claim.)

And i greatly find interesting the idea of Matriarchal vs Patriarchal lineages as x and y go unchanged down different paths. If one imagines a magical figure born of a special line xy and it being split to be re-united one day for great good or the such. Makes for great legends, historicity, and just good story telling.

I speak on all of this openly with no particular religious view guiding my thoughts and with the utter most respect for every ones views. This is more of a theoretical idea that all legends are connected in some way as we all tie back to one man or woman. Adam and Eve. Which even science says is so, though through a slightly different picture. 

So in speaking about this mythological approach to literary free licence in a fantastical retelling of sorts. And that influence on Martin's novel.

As he obviously doesn't let any one religion guide his world, and lets it be as richly layered as ours in as much as he can. Though the question of origins seems lingering still. Though i think Martin will leave his as vague as our own haha we arent meant to fully understand his as we dont understand our own in that context.  

Sorry if that seemed a lil rambling hahah 

There was an aspect of the mono-theism vs poly theism i left more vague in respects for all cultures but an interesting one none the less, especially when actually studying doctrine. Like sin and where your soul goes. A wonderful but touchy subject, understandably.

And i greatly apologize if any of this seems offensive by comparing in this context, not my intent at all. These legends are very much alive in our world and though can be influence in much literature, should still be discussed respectfully  

Nothing to apologise, I didn't want to sound ignorant because I don't have knowledge about Christianity or Western beliefs about figures from Torah - as Qur'anic Nasara is different than Nazarene and Christians. But you are right George has a really layered story! 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Jova Snow said:

Nothing to apologise, I didn't want to sound ignorant because I don't have knowledge about Christianity or Western beliefs about figures from Torah - as Qur'anic Nasara is different than Nazarene and Christians. But you are right George has a really layered story! 

Oh no problems at all! There is still so much of other cultures im learning, i find asian history the hardest to learn just cause the names are hard for me to memorize haha grr

Mostly all christian speculation though i believe. I dont believe the Jewish groups would agree with all of these legends or not. Not sure there. I think they would split with these myths at the point of the Spear of Destiny and that time period.  Some of the European groups also dont share these same ideas and see their culture as being lost in the wake of these legends. That's where history gets interesting imo though. I wish so much more had been preserved of every bodies past so we knew more. And yes George has done an amazing job bridging legends and myths into a great story of his own!

[Megorova]

On 1/4/2018 at 6:57 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

The Andals, like the Rhoynar, and the Sarnori, have Dark Hair and Dark Eyes.

Andals have light hair, and blue or green eyes.

Andal families - Lannisters and Arryns; Stony Dornishmen, that live in Red Mountains and Andal adventurers - Vaiths, Yronwoods, Fowlers, Ullers, Allyrions, Qorgyles, Santagares, Jordaynes, and, possibly, some of Daynes.

Cassella Vaith had green eyes and pale whiteblond hair. Gwyneth Yronwood "At twelve years old, she is a small, scrawny girl whose dark eyes and brown hair set her apart in a house of blue-eyed blondes." Twins Jeyne and Jennelyn Fowler have yellow hair. Daemon Sand, bastard-son of Ryon Allyrion has sky blue eyes, and light sandy brown hair. Edric Dayne has pale blond hair and dark blue eyes.

So out of eight known Andal families of Dorne, we have description of four - Vaith, Yronwood, Fowler and Allyrion - and they have either blue or green eyes and blond hair, or in case with Daemon Sand - light sandy brown hair, which is NOT a dark hair.

In the World book it was said, that Andals were light-haired. The same thing was said to Bran by master Luwin, in AGOT, Bran VII: "The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests."

Also this ->

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Andals

Quote

Author George R.R. Martin has stated that the series was loosely inspired by the War of the Roses which occurred in Britain during the fifteenth century. The First Men loosely parallel the original Celtic inhabitants of Britain, while the Andals who later invaded and conquered Westeros are loosely parallel to the Anglo-Saxon invasions of Britain during the fifth and sixth centuries. Their name is also similar to the Vandals, barbarian tribes who were conquering parts of the Roman Empire at the same time as the Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxons divided up Britain into seven kingdoms, such as Mercia and Wessex, known as the "Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy". Similarly, the small kingdoms the Andals established in Westeros eventually aggregated over the centuries into "the Seven Kingdoms" such as the Westerlands, the Reach, etc. When the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain, there was some intermingling with the local Celtic population, but the overwhelming ethnic composition centuries later stemmed from the Anglo-Saxons. Similarly, the Andals intermingled with First Men they conquered: typically, the nobility tend to be predominantly from the invaders (Anglo-Saxon or Andal), while commoners descend largely from the conquered (First Men or Celts). This varies considerably from one kingdom to the next, i.e. the inhabitants of the Vale are of very pure Andal descent compared to other regions.

Celts were dark-haired and dark-eyed, while Anglo-Saxons were of lighter complexion. Anglo-Saxons were taller than Celts, and Celts had longer skulls, like Starks with their long faces.

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Andals have light hair, and blue or green eyes.

Andal families - Lannisters and Arryns; Stony Dornishmen, that live in Red Mountains and Andal adventurers - Vaiths, Yronwoods, Fowlers, Ullers, Allyrions, Qorgyles, Santagares, Jordaynes, and, possibly, some of Daynes.

Cassella Vaith had green eyes and pale whiteblond hair. Gwyneth Yronwood "At twelve years old, she is a small, scrawny girl whose dark eyes and brown hair set her apart in a house of blue-eyed blondes." Twins Jeyne and Jennelyn Fowler have yellow hair. Daemon Sand, bastard-son of Ryon Allyrion has sky blue eyes, and light sandy brown hair. Edric Dayne has pale blond hair and dark blue eyes.

So out of eight known Andal families of Dorne, we have description of four - Vaith, Yronwood, Fowler and Allyrion - and they have either blue or green eyes and blond hair, or in case with Daemon Sand - light sandy brown hair, which is NOT a dark hair.

In the World book it was said, that Andals were light-haired. The same thing was said to Bran by master Luwin, in AGOT, Bran VII: "The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests."

Also this ->

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Andals

Celts were dark-haired and dark-eyed, while Anglo-Saxons were of lighter complexion. Anglo-Saxons were taller than Celts, and Celts had longer skulls, like Starks with their long faces.

Yronwoods are First Men, many Andal married First Men families to invade Westeros - Arryns are seen as purest Andals yet we know they married many Houses of Westeros after their arrival. Andals being fair haired is a bullshit propaganda just like First Men said to have darker feature which is not true when you look at families Durrandon, Rowan, Redwyne, Hightower and Stark. While they may have dark hair they have grey/blue/green eyes and have gold, red-gold (Dondarrion), and red hair (Griffin King and possible tied to Connington). 

+ Look at TWOIAF art of Nymeria and Martell husband of her they are nearly same without any hint of fair hair / eye color for Martells. 

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Andals have light hair, and blue or green eyes.

Andal families - Lannisters and Arryns; Stony Dornishmen, that live in Red Mountains and Andal adventurers - Vaiths, Yronwoods, Fowlers, Ullers, Allyrions, Qorgyles, Santagares, Jordaynes, and, possibly, some of Daynes.

Cassella Vaith had green eyes and pale whiteblond hair. Gwyneth Yronwood "At twelve years old, she is a small, scrawny girl whose dark eyes and brown hair set her apart in a house of blue-eyed blondes." Twins Jeyne and Jennelyn Fowler have yellow hair. Daemon Sand, bastard-son of Ryon Allyrion has sky blue eyes, and light sandy brown hair. Edric Dayne has pale blond hair and dark blue eyes.

So out of eight known Andal families of Dorne, we have description of four - Vaith, Yronwood, Fowler and Allyrion - and they have either blue or green eyes and blond hair, or in case with Daemon Sand - light sandy brown hair, which is NOT a dark hair.

In the World book it was said, that Andals were light-haired. The same thing was said to Bran by master Luwin, in AGOT, Bran VII: "The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests."

Also this ->

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Andals

Celts were dark-haired and dark-eyed, while Anglo-Saxons were of lighter complexion. Anglo-Saxons were taller than Celts, and Celts had longer skulls, like Starks with their long faces.

Anglo-saxon is german, who have dark hair. I think your thinking of the Nordic Vikings from Scandinavia that had the light colored hair and eyes. Only East Germany is known for blue eyes and light hair.

I agree with Jova Snow on this. I think this is something we are led to believe, but based on clues, suggest otherwise. 

Just like the bit about First Men not building Round towers and it coming from Andals. Even though Andals show no signs of building round towers till coming to Westeros.           

Edit- Look up a picture of Alfred the Great of England.       

Edit Edit- Not everyyyy one is brunette of the West but  predominately, especially back in the day. Polish on the other hand is very much blonde and blue eyes. My mom's side is Swiss (Oops correction, speaking only of her male side) German- Neuenschwander.

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

+ Look at TWOIAF art of Nymeria and Martell husband of her they are nearly same without any hint of fair hair / eye color for Martells. 

The Andal Invasion into Dorne has happened 2 or 4 thousands years ago, that's when was established House Martell, by its founder, Morgan Martell. Mors Martell has married with Nimeria 1000 years ago. So between arrival of Martells into Dorne, and arrival of Nimeria there, has passed 1-3 thousands years. And in the World Book it was mentioned, that in Dorne the influence of Andals was lesser, than in any other region of Westeros. Thus, even if founder of House Martell was blue-eyed blond, then by the time of Nimeria's arrival, members of House Martell have already lost their original Andal traits, because they were frequently intermarrying with local dark-haired and dark-eyed people from First Men families. When Andals arrived into Westerlands, many of them were intermarrying with locals, members of great Houses and even smallfolk. So eventually there was formed a big genetic pool of Andal "blond" genes in Westerlands. So even when blond Andal-Lannisters were marrying with members of not-Andal local families, among those people, with whom they were intermarrying, many of them were already also a carriers of "blond" Andal genes. So Lannisters have remained blond. In Dorne with Martells has happened the opposite thing - fairly quickly their descendants have lost their original Andal-genes, and weren't getting them from marriages with locals, because when Andals came to Dorne, they weren't spreading their genes there, as intensive, as they did it in Westerlands. So in 200 or so years after establishment of House Martell, its members had nothing left of their original genetic pool, and have lost all Andal traits. That's why Nimeria's husband isn't blond.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Edit- Look up a picture of Alfred the Great of England.     

On some pictures Alfred the Great is portrayed as blond, on some as dark-haired.

Look at the pictures of Anglo-Saxon kings here, nearly all of them, from 880 to 1300 are portrayed as light-haired. And the painters did had dark paint, so they could have painted those kings with dark hair, if that was the case, and they were dark-haired. But they didn't, because nearly all of those Anglo-Saxon kings, in span of 400+ years, were mostly people with blond hair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_monarchs

This site has lots of interesting info about celts and saxons, including about their looks, and pictures of their kings:

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/celts_1.html

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/saxon_21.htm

Out of 15 kings, whose pictures are available in thru that second link, 13 are portrayed as blond.

5 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Yronwoods are First Men, many Andal married First Men families to invade Westeros

Yes, they are originally First Men. Though they are Stony Dornishmen, and it seems, that Stony Dornishmen are light-haired, because they have a lot of Andal blood. It seems, that Andals liked to settle in the mountains. Just look at The Vale and Arryns, Lannisters on their Casterly Rock, and Stony Dornishmen, who are, probably, "stony" because they live in the mountains.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dornishmen#Ethnicity

 

So, unless GRRM will say otherwise, I'm using as a basis, information from the World Book - that Andals were fair-haired (and Lannisters are the best example of that).

[AlaskanSandman]

37 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The Andal Invasion into Dorne has happened 2 or 4 thousands years ago, that's when was established House Martell, by its founder, Morgan Martell. Mors Martell has married with Nimeria 1000 years ago. So between arrival of Martells into Dorne, and arrival of Nimeria there, has passed 1-3 thousands years. And in the World Book it was mentioned, that in Dorne the influence of Andals was lesser, than in any other region of Westeros. Thus, even if founder of House Martell was blue-eyed blond, then by the time of Nimeria's arrival, members of House Martell have already lost their original Andal traits, because they were frequently intermarrying with local dark-haired and dark-eyed people from First Men families. When Andals arrived into Westerlands, many of them were intermarrying with locals, members of great Houses and even smallfolk. So eventually there was formed a big genetic pool of Andal "blond" genes in Westerlands. So even when blond Andal-Lannisters were marrying with members of not-Andal local families, among those people, with whom they were intermarrying, many of them were already also a carriers of "blond" Andal genes. So Lannisters have remained blond. In Dorne with Martells has happened the opposite thing - fairly quickly their descendants have lost their original Andal-genes, and weren't getting them from marriages with locals, because when Andals came to Dorne, they weren't spreading their genes there, as intensive, as they did it in Westerlands. So in 200 or so years after establishment of House Martell, its members had nothing left of their original genetic pool, and have lost all Andal traits. That's why Nimeria's husband isn't blond.

On some pictures Alfred the Great is portrayed as blond, on some as dark-haired.

Look at the pictures of Anglo-Saxon kings here, nearly all of them, from 880 to 1300 are portrayed as light-haired. And the painters did had dark paint, so they could have painted those kings with dark hair, if that was the case, and they were dark-haired. But they didn't, because nearly all of those Anglo-Saxon kings, in span of 400+ years, were mostly people with blond hair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_monarchs

This site has lots of interesting info about celts and saxons, including about their looks, and pictures of their kings:

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/celts_1.html

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/saxon_21.htm

Out of 15 kings, whose pictures are available in thru that second link, 13 are portrayed as blond.

Yes, they are originally First Men. Though they are Stony Dornishmen, and it seems, that Stony Dornishmen are light-haired, because they have a lot of Andal blood. It seems, that Andals liked to settle in the mountains. Just look at The Vale and Arryns, Lannisters on their Casterly Rock, and Stony Dornishmen, who are, probably, "stony" because they live in the mountains.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dornishmen#Ethnicity

 

So, unless GRRM will say otherwise, I'm using as a basis, information from the World Book - that Andals were fair-haired (and Lannisters are the best example of that).

Sorry, im not counting the dark hair to lighter brown haired to sandy blonde Anglo-saxon with the blonde blue eyed Norwegian Vikings. Anglo Saxons did not look like the Vikings. Sorry. Celtic people had reddish hair. Germans have dark hair to lighter brown or sandy  blonde. The Norwegians have blonde hair. The Danes are caught in between main land Germany and Norway on a little strip of land.  No one in my German family has blonde hair except the Swiss sides. Most all my German friends would agree.

According to you all of England should be blond and maybe red heads but no brunettes then?

Most German's i know of Blonde hair come from the East near Berlin. 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

The Andal Invasion into Dorne has happened 2 or 4 thousands years ago, that's when was established House Martell, by its founder, Morgan Martell. Mors Martell has married with Nimeria 1000 years ago. So between arrival of Martells into Dorne, and arrival of Nimeria there, has passed 1-3 thousands years. And in the World Book it was mentioned, that in Dorne the influence of Andals was lesser, than in any other region of Westeros. Thus, even if founder of House Martell was blue-eyed blond, then by the time of Nimeria's arrival, members of House Martell have already lost their original Andal traits, because they were frequently intermarrying with local dark-haired and dark-eyed people from First Men families. When Andals arrived into Westerlands, many of them were intermarrying with locals, members of great Houses and even smallfolk. So eventually there was formed a big genetic pool of Andal "blond" genes in Westerlands. So even when blond Andal-Lannisters were marrying with members of not-Andal local families, among those people, with whom they were intermarrying, many of them were already also a carriers of "blond" Andal genes. So Lannisters have remained blond. In Dorne with Martells has happened the opposite thing - fairly quickly their descendants have lost their original Andal-genes, and weren't getting them from marriages with locals, because when Andals came to Dorne, they weren't spreading their genes there, as intensive, as they did it in Westerlands. So in 200 or so years after establishment of House Martell, its members had nothing left of their original genetic pool, and have lost all Andal traits. That's why Nimeria's husband isn't blond.

On some pictures Alfred the Great is portrayed as blond, on some as dark-haired.

Look at the pictures of Anglo-Saxon kings here, nearly all of them, from 880 to 1300 are portrayed as light-haired. And the painters did had dark paint, so they could have painted those kings with dark hair, if that was the case, and they were dark-haired. But they didn't, because nearly all of those Anglo-Saxon kings, in span of 400+ years, were mostly people with blond hair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_monarchs

This site has lots of interesting info about celts and saxons, including about their looks, and pictures of their kings:

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/celts_1.html

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/saxon_21.htm

Out of 15 kings, whose pictures are available in thru that second link, 13 are portrayed as blond.

Yes, they are originally First Men. Though they are Stony Dornishmen, and it seems, that Stony Dornishmen are light-haired, because they have a lot of Andal blood. It seems, that Andals liked to settle in the mountains. Just look at The Vale and Arryns, Lannisters on their Casterly Rock, and Stony Dornishmen, who are, probably, "stony" because they live in the mountains.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dornishmen#Ethnicity

 

So, unless GRRM will say otherwise, I'm using as a basis, information from the World Book - that Andals were fair-haired (and Lannisters are the best example of that).

Sorry, popping in while working so typing quick and generalizing a lil bit. As the blonde hair thing is a lil more complicated than either of us are explaining. But i do get your general point without derailing. I just think the Andals are not Blonde, and that there is no reason to believe they are. Unless they are Valyrian who likely came from the first men, every one else around them is brunette or Black hair. Rhoyne, Sarnor, Ib, the Dothraki, all have dark hair.

[Megorova]

42 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Sorry, im not counting the dark hair to lighter brown haired to sandy blonde Anglo-saxon with the blonde blue eyed Norwegian Vikings. Anglo Saxons did not look like the Vikings. Sorry. Celtic people had reddish hair. Germans have dark hair to lighter brown or sandy  blonde. The Norwegians have blonde hair. The Danes are caught in between main land Germany and Norway on a little strip of land.  No one in my German family has blonde hair except the Swiss sides. Most all my German friends would agree.

According to you all of England should be blond and maybe red heads but no brunettes then?

Most German's i know of Blonde hair come from the East near Berlin. 

You're talking about modern day Germans, while I meant this sort of Northerners/ Nordic Aryans/Germans ->

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race

This is totally racist, so let's not delve too much into this discussion (of Nazi's theories about pureness of races). But they were counting as pureblooded, those people, that were blue-eyed blonds. And who were those people? -> They were from the same region, from where before them came Anglo-Saxons. North-Western Europe - old days Germany, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark <- those lands, that previously were inhabited by blond blue-eyed people. Anglo-Saxons were migrans from Germanic tribes, but those Germanic tribes were NOTHING like modern-day Germans. That was 1500 years ago, and since then, people of the world have mixed and mingled their genes. So the genetic pool of people, that nowadays inhabit the same lands, from which in the 5th century to Britain had arrived Anglo-Saxons, have nearly nothing left of that original genetic pool.

Modern day Germans are not the same, as Anglo-Saxons of the 5th century.

There's no pure Anglo-Saxons in modern world, same as there's no pure Andals in modern Westeros.

GRRM has said many times, that in modern Westeros, there's no people, that are pure Andals, or First Men, or Rhoynars -> they are all mixes of those three races + who knows how many other races from Essos, such as Valyrians, Dothraki, Ghiskary, Summer Islanders, etc. The only indication of what the original Andals looked like, is info from the World Book, and what the maesters say - Andals were fair-haired. Readers can disregard, what maesters are saying, and can think, that maesters are lying about many things, but until GRRM will confirm or disprove something, we should take into consideration, what he did said in his books, using maesters as his "speakers". Thus, so far, what maesters have said about Andals, is the only known information. It's not a matter of whether this information is reliable or not. Because, for now, it's the only information, that is known.