Can you bring an Other back to life (Fire)?

[AlaskanSandman]

17 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

I think I get what your asking, your not talking about the Others who I don't think were ever human but the neverborn who were crasters children and are the one's we see commanding army's of wight and attacking the night's watch. We don't know what's done to them to make them into neverborn and seeing as there no longer made of flesh and blood I don't think they can be made back into humans.

Kind of, but in the terms you put it i would call the Great Other, which is different from the Night's King or the Corpse Queen. 

And i guess alot of this depends on how people see the Others being created and or duplicated. Because, what's happening to Crasters son's?

[AlaskanSandman]

34 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

I think I get what your asking, your not talking about the Others who I don't think were ever human but the neverborn who were crasters children and are the one's we see commanding army's of wight and attacking the night's watch. We don't know what's done to them to make them into neverborn and seeing as there no longer made of flesh and blood I don't think they can be made back into humans.

Craster and Val i think are descendants of the 9th kingdom. Cut off by the wall, to prevent the curse. 

Garth the Green ruled all of westeros before the wall went up. The Curse was placed on his Barrow, as he was the First King who led men across the arm of Dorne. Garth's war was part of the dawn age, and his death likely marked the pact and the curse. 

His son i think broke the curse by warring with his brother and becoming high king. This is Brandon of the Bloody Blade.

Thus Bloody Brandon's son's solution, was to divide the land with a giant ice wall sealed with magic. 

It didn't end the Others, it just contained them, and prevented any one else from turning into one as per the curse.

That being said, they seem to have found a way to keep reproducing as per the Corpse Queen tale, and Craster's children possibly being turned.

[Sensenmenn]

This is how I think the others work

God -  lion of night -  unkillable 

The Others - race of anti life entity's are both male and female and reproduce like normal - killed by dragon steel

Neverborn - artificially made others are all male and serve the others - killed by obsidian 

Wight - undead killed by fire

The night's king is a sad tail of a man suduced by a other female twisted into servitude and made to do bad things and then killed by his brother 

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

This is how I think the others work

God -  lion of night -  unkillable 

The Others - race of anti life entity's are both male and female and reproduce like normal - killed by dragon steel

Neverborn - artificially made others are all male and serve the others - killed by obsidian 

Wight - undead killed by fire

The night's king is a sad tail of a man suduced by a other female twisted into servitude and made to do bad things and then killed by his brother 

Well i think she was born an Other, and was the last female other born. As turning seems different that the ones born.

Though i definitely see what your saying and gives me some interesting thought to chew on.

Though this may be connected to how i think many of Garth's bastards turned to Others. Maybe the curse actually caused Garth's children to be born as Others. Marking them as different than the ones we see later, like what your saying. The ones later merely being lesser forms turned into Others, rather than being born as Others? 

Hmmm interesting

Though this still brings me back to Azor Ahai and the stabbing. Said to be linked to the creation of dragons. This is why i cant help but think there is a turning back. 

Where does Valyria (Purple) fit into this family tree after all? Which are Fire and which are Ice? This is some of the deeper meatier stuff im trying to get at and resolve.

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

9 hours ago, divica said:

Having the knowledge of the previous owner of the body is a much more interesting argument. However, when jon and bran warg into their wolves don t they have the same knowledge as the wolves? I know this doesn t happen when bran hijacks hodor, but it may be because bran is doing it wrong?

Bran experiences everything hodor does in the same way he experiences the wolves 

Brand does not experience everything Hodor does in the same way he experiences the wolves.  When skinchanging the direwolves, the skinchanger 'merge' with the direwolf, resulting in the skinchanger sharing thoughts and feelings with the direwolf.  An example of this is that while skinchanging Bran refers to castles as caves¹, armor as hardskin², and weapons as man-claws.  Another example would be when Jon felt Ghost's hunger³.  On the other hand, while Bran does have complete control over Hodor's body, Hodor's mind and thoughts hide from Bran⁴.

1.Bran VI-ACoK

Quote

He howled, a long deep shivery cry, a howl to wake the sleepers, but the piles of man-rock were dark and dead. A still wet night, a night to drive men into their holes. The rain had stopped, but the men still hid from the damp, huddled by the fires in their caves of piled stone.

2.Bran VII-ACoK

Quote

Yet as one smell drew them onward, others warned them back. He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin.

3.Jon XII-ASoS

Quote

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. 

4.Bran III-ADwD

Quote

Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

When they die their corpse turns to water, but if the weather is cold enough wouldn't that water turn back into ice? Shouldn't they turn into steam if they are killed by obsidian, which is fire in the form of glass?

[Clegane'sPup]

9 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

When they die their corpse turns to water, but if the weather is cold enough wouldn't that water turn back into ice? Shouldn't they turn into steam if they are killed by obsidian, which is fire in the form of glass?

Depending on who the they is in your post and if you are speaking of the Others, in a kinda sorta way Mr. Puddles did turn into steam.

 

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I  When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow./

 

[Clegane'sPup]

23 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Um, if you havnt read that then you really shouldn't be responding to this. 

And excuse me?? No, Ill post it here, where it belongs. This is not isolated to just the main 5 books. I discuss all of them as they are all important, Princess and the Queen, Rogue Prince, The Dragon's sons, The Dunk and Egg Tales, TWOAIF, and the main series. 

Um if you noticed I said I could not speak to the Garth stuff.

Public forum. I was merely giving suggestions.

If you are so inclined to do so I would suggest you listen to what Mr. Martin says in an interview that happened while he was promoting the world book. At approximately the five minute mark he says what ASOIAF is about.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

26 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Um if you noticed I said I could not speak to the Garth stuff.

Public forum. I was merely giving suggestions.

If you are so inclined to do so I would suggest you listen to what Mr. Martin says in an interview that happened while he was promoting the world book. At approximately the five minute mark he says what ASOIAF is about.

 

Forgive me for being dense, but im still confused hahah

Why can't you speak on Garth? Personal message?

And i listened but i dont get the reference. Dany and Jon are the fire and Ice side? Or did i miss something else? Like i said, i feel like im being a lil dense and not getting what you mean.

 

[Sensenmenn]

Just to clarify Garth the green was a first men king of the reach in the age of heros. He is not the god Emperor from the empire of the dawn which was in esose and he had nothing to do with the Other's. 

[AlaskanSandman]

47 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

Just to clarify Garth the green was a first men king of the reach in the age of heros. He is not the god Emperor from the empire of the dawn which was in esose and he had nothing to do with the Other's. 

Well as the story is told yes. 

Though others have speculated about them being the same and the families being tied. I have wondered the same and this is a look at merging those families and legends.. Which do sync up in a lot of ways.

And no, Garth was not of the Age of Heroes, his children were. Garth the Green was a first man King who led his people from the East to the West into Westeros, during the Dawn Days when the first men made war with the COTF. Before a peace was made called the Pact that ushered in the Age of Heroes. 

Edit- The idea being that his legend starts in the East where they have one telling of it, but that it carries over to the west where they have different stories about him.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 1/3/2018 at 5:19 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

So the curse was placed on Garth by shoving the obsidian possibly into his chest. This only started the curse, NOT THE OTHERSSSSSSSS. Following?

If I am following are you suggesting that Garth was stabbed in the chest with obsidian by one of the children of the forest? Thereby making the 13th lord commander of the NW the NK?

On 1/3/2018 at 5:19 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

The Grey King who activated the curse on his father Garth the Green, when the Grey King made war on his brother to become High King, which the curse prevents as it turns you into an other.

 

Now there is a Grey King, the father of Garth, who became the High King.....

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why can't you speak on Garth? Personal message?

I can't speak knowledgeably about Garth because I have not read the world book. Not sure what the personal message means.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And i listened but i dont get the reference.

I didn't hear Martin talking about what you are selling.

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 1/3/2018 at 4:51 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

 

It has long been held that they did this for protection from predators such as direwolves or shadowcats, which their simple stone weapons—and even their vaunted greenseers—were not proof against. But other sources dispute this, stating that their greatest foes were the giants, as hinted at in tales told in the North, and as possibly proved by Maester Kennet in the study of a barrow near the Long Lake—a giant's burial with obsidian arrowheads found amidst the extant ribs. 

 

arrowheads in the skeleton of a giant only means they fought the children. It in no way means that giants were turned into others or something like that

 

On 1/3/2018 at 4:51 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

No it's not

And i apologize if im being a lil course atm, im more than irritated this was moved to the stupid ass show thread. That shows sucks. Seriously. This was a question  based off the books and evidence in it. 

 

Seriously, the idea that the Other's come from humans has been around on the Last Hearth, YouTube, and more for years, before the stupid show did they're take on things. 

The others being humans turned by the children via obsidian may have been theorized here, but there is absolutely ZERO in book text to support it. The show ran with it and showed it specifically, so it is a show thing

 

On 1/3/2018 at 5:05 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

No, it's not. I amended it with the quotes from the books that im referring to, not the show. Also took out my other random musing. Was never a frickin show question if you've read anyyyyyy of my other threads. Literally nothinggggggggggggg i say is like the show. 

 Yes it is. The Obsidian dagger turning humans into others is very much a show thing. So, the thread has been moved. There is nothing wrong with its current location 

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

If I am following are you suggesting that Garth was stabbed in the chest with obsidian by one of the children of the forest? Thereby making the 13th lord commander of the NW the NK?

No. Just that he was possibly stabbed in the chest as some part of the curse on his Barrow. One that would make any other seeking to rise as high as he did, would grow corpse like in appearance. 

 

2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Now there is a Grey King, the father of Garth, who became the High King.....

The Grey King would be the son of Garth the Green. Garth sounds to have lived for a verryyyy long time during the Dawn Age. The Grey King lived only 1007 years, like how Durran lived 1000 years. This is like the God on Earth (10,000 years) and his sons who lived 1000 years. 

3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I can't speak knowledgeably about Garth because I have not read the world book. Not sure what the personal message means.

Oh, i thought there was a reason you couldnt state on the forum so i was saying maybe personal message me haha 

Garth is actually mentioned out side of the World Book in the main ASIOAF series. We just learn more in TWOIAF. Likely as martin has a hard time working in information as it has to be organic to the story. Really great book honestly, and full of interesting legends, tales, and histories. Its a good read. 

6 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I didn't hear Martin talking about what you are selling

Oh haha well yea, he wouldn't. Firstly Martin like Hp Love Craft and his writting style. Which is to hint at the past while never fully spelling it all out at once. On top of that GRRM likes to hide hints in his story early such as the Red Wedding. 

What im talking about would fall under the Maester's conspiracy really. It's part of them hiding the true history as Martin is to reveal later (though he has laid many clues already) that the maesters and the citidel are secretly opposing the Targaryens and Valryians. They are also hiding the Andal ties and involvement in the past and what really happened. 

Alot of clues are in the ASOIAF series, while others are laid out in TWOIAF. 

Exp. We are given 2 dates for the Andal invasion at 4k and 2k years ago, yet we're also told Alyssa Arryn supposedly lived 6k years ago. Which is before the Andals are said to have invaded. So martin seems to be trying to tell us something using his pov narrative. Not every one is to be believed. 

This is how he builds mystery before any big reveal. So he wouldn't tell this all up front. He would tell the myths first. Then the truth last.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

arrowheads in the skeleton of a giant only means they fought the children. It in no way means that giants were turned into others or something like that

 

The others being humans turned by the children via obsidian may have been theorized here, but there is absolutely ZERO in book text to support it. The show ran with it and showed it specifically, so it is a show thing

 

 Yes it is. The Obsidian dagger turning humans into others is very much a show thing. So, the thread has been moved. There is nothing wrong with its current location 

Well that's what we're first told yes. But it also possibly works into other clues he has laid in the books.

And that would be a matter of opinion really. Obviously if people were theorizing it years before, then there must have been sufficient evidence to them to suspect as much. 

No it's not. Cause the entire set up and situation i talk about is not at all possible in that show. Its just not. The show cut out wayyyy to much for them to even be the same. What im saying about the books involves three generations of people and involving one being cursed while it effected the next generations. Not just some guy strapped to a pole and turned. Way different.

[AlaskanSandman]

14 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

arrowheads in the skeleton of a giant only means they fought the children. It in no way means that giants were turned into others or something like that

 

The others being humans turned by the children via obsidian may have been theorized here, but there is absolutely ZERO in book text to support it. The show ran with it and showed it specifically, so it is a show thing

 

 Yes it is. The Obsidian dagger turning humans into others is very much a show thing. So, the thread has been moved. There is nothing wrong with its current location 

Look at it like this Dorian. The Others never are mentioned before the Long Night. Meaning, they did not exist before the Long Night. 

So, they either created them out of nothing, or they used a pre-existing something (humans) and used magic to turn them. It's really not a hard logical leap and yes the evidence is in the books. Not every things needs to be spelled out word for word that this is indeed what happened. What would be the fun even in a book like that?

[divica]

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Look at it like this Dorian. The Others never are mentioned before the Long Night. Meaning, they did not exist before the Long Night. 

So, they either created them out of nothing, or they used a pre-existing something (humans) and used magic to turn them. It's really not a hard logical leap and yes the evidence is in the books. Not every things needs to be spelled out word for word that this is indeed what happened. What would be the fun even in a book like that?

It isn t that easy.

Don t Forget that the others also attacked essos. And If the others could use boats I think the Wall would be useless... (this sounds so ridiculous lol)

However, even if they can use boats. Why would they go to essos before conquering westeros?

[ravenous reader]

@AlaskanSandman I'm glad to find your thread back in the general ASOIAF instead of show section (don't let Dorian the Difficult dissuade you from your metaphorical task )

Spoiler

(...although I'll never understand the pedantic hoopla about keeping the show and book separate as if 'never the twain shall meet..,' when clearly that 'virginity' was lost long ago!   Of course the two tellings influence each other reciprocally and therefore analysis of the show's choices can definitely shed light on GRRM's thinking and vice versa.  It makes more sense to analyze D&D's script than to seek for clues to foreshadowing in Norse mythology and the like  -- whether one likes it or not, GRRM has directly confided key plot and symbolic elements to the fools, although he's not responsible for the contorted writing they sometimes come up with to account for these appointed milestones; so be it).

It's a pity the following observations were edited away in your original post; I think it's a great catch!

Quote

On 1/3/2018 at 7:15 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

The Night's King is played down by Martin when talking about the books but not said to not exist. He said the Night's King is no more likely to exist than Bran the Builder. Since Bran the Builder likely is the Night's King, that's kind of really just a play on words. Just leaves open whether or not Bran the Builder is still alive then. 

As you've correctly interpreted, saying the NK is 'no more likely' to exist than BtB is the same thing as saying they're 'just as likely' to exist as each other, suggesting that their respective 'existences' may be more equivalent than we think, perhaps even literally equivalent, because they're just two aspects of the very same person, LOL!  The Targaryeans may not be the only ones with two faces to the coin, a 'taint' in the gene pool, and a moral taboo at the heart (pun intended) of their power:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

"Taint?" Dany bristled.

"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

'How it will land' after being 'tossed into the air'...  As the wonderful @evita mgfs once pointed out, Bran like his forbear and namesake is the 'fallen star(k)'.

On 1/3/2018 at 5:19 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

This question comes to me given that Azor Ahai stabs Nissa Nissa, but what if it was to turn her into an Other, or back from being an Other?

I think he turned her into an Other; he's a villain not a hero (or perhaps, more accurately, he's a fallen hero); and I think he raped/murdered her (euphemistically referred to as 'chasing and stealing' her), just as we saw demonstrated by the Varamyr-Thistle interaction in the ADWD Prologue.  He did not forge Lightbringer 'for love', just as the motive for Petyr chucking Lysa out the moondoor into the 'bloody blue' had nothing to do with love. 

At its essence, the 'Lightbringer forging' requires the face-to-face murder of a spouse (basically, a kinslaying) at point-blank range (Dany's snuffling-out of sorcerously-lobotomised Drogo via pillow is another example, though it make me unpopular to voice the glaring parallel).  The subtext indicates AA/BtB was a greenseer who abused his power, committing abominations.  The principal challenge of Bran's arc is to avoid the temptation of walking in the footsteps of his ancestor, as he crosses the perilous narrow bridge across that abyss.

Quote

I was wondering if any one has given thought to this idea of it going the other way with transformations?

If you think of the transformation in question as being analogous to 'Snow White' in suspended animation merely 'sleeping' in her glass coffin under a spell, as suggested by @GloubieBoulga (as we expect will be the case for Jon Snow preserved in his ice cell, as foreshadowed in Bran's so-called 'coma dream'); then I suppose it's conceivable that the spell may be reversed and the prisoner liberated from his/her incarceration intact. 

If, however, your model of the 'frozen fire' or 'burning ice' implies a cost, as in the Varamyr 'plunging bodiless into the ice-cold lake' having suffered a 'true death,' which means that he can never return to his own human form, that dead flesh having fallen away forever irretrievably; then it's not possible to truly convert the 'undead' back to the 'living' side of the equation.  Being 'immortal' is not the same thing as being 'alive'.  Let that sink in for a moment!  

Quote

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

It has long been held that they did this for protection from predators such as direwolves or shadowcats, which their simple stone weapons—and even their vaunted greenseers—were not proof against. But other sources dispute this, stating that their greatest foes were the giants, as hinted at in tales told in the North, and as possibly proved by Maester Kennet in the study of a barrow near the Long Lake—a giant's burial with obsidian arrowheads found amidst the extant ribs. 

That's also an excellent catch!

If the 'giant's ribs' are a metaphor for the weirwood/weirnet (like the 'ribs of Nagga'), then what do you think the presence of obsidian or frozen fire in their midst signifies?

[AlaskanSandman]

20 minutes ago, divica said:

It isn t that easy.

Don t Forget that the others also attacked essos. And If the others could use boats I think the Wall would be useless... (this sounds so ridiculous lol)

However, even if they can use boats. Why would they go to essos before conquering westeros?

Well there is nothing to connect the creatures around the Grey Waste to the Others. Plus we only ever hear about them in TWOIAF and GRRM has said that Essos does not connect to Westeros. 

So while i do wonder about them too. I suspect them as being different possibly. Even if not, it still works with what im saying.

Garth and his family are from Essos. So at what point these stories are happening in the east or the west, we are not sure. 

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 

Ahh, i gotta go do some stuff atm but well met!!!!

I feel like im talking at a wall sometimes hahaha it's so refreshing when i get to speak to people who are looking at the books in the same open minded way!

I greatly look forward to getting back on later and responding to all of this  

Thank you!!!!