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The Last Jedi (Spoilers): Force-Choke or Tour-de-Force?

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I guess where we differ here is our opinions of the heroics they do get to show. I seem to rate them more highly than you do even if they are smaller scale. I’m happy for more experienced leadership to get the galaxy saving/fleet saving stuff because I don’t feel like Finn, Rey and Rose are getting shortchanged. Ymmv though 

Sure, all's fair in love and (Star) War(s) and I'm certainly not trying to talk anyone out of loving either of the new films.

I just can't help but chuckle at the fact that while it's the old man who gets the glorious, galaxy-inspiring, super-magical final act the young girl is so side-lined the movie explicitly makes a joke about how her last act in the film is to clear a few rocks out of the way.

Makes it double-pathetic that so many whiny manbabies are wailing that this movie is anti-male.

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23 hours ago, Davrum said:

Sure, all's fair in love and (Star) War(s) and I'm certainly not trying to talk anyone out of loving either of the new films.

I just can't help but chuckle at the fact that while it's the old man who gets the glorious, galaxy-inspiring, super-magical final act the young girl is so side-lined the movie explicitly makes a joke about how her last act in the film is to clear a few rocks out of the way.

Makes it double-pathetic that so many whiny manbabies are wailing that this movie is anti-male.

Well I certainly won’t disagree there :cheers: 

Though, isn’t the “lifting rocks” joke a callback to earlier when Luke asks what she thinks the Force is?

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Well I certainly won’t disagree there :cheers: 

Though, isn’t the “lifting rocks” joke a callback to earlier when Luke asks what she thinks the Force is?

Yep, it's definitely a callback, but because it's cut against the galaxy-inspiring majesty of what Luke is doing out front it also plays as kind of a shrug towards mundanity. (It's a real word, trust me.)

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On 1/8/2018 at 5:00 PM, Rubicante said:

My question is "How do you show a correct turn to the dark side?".  Anakin's turn is too fast, and we pretty much get no explanation as to why Kylo Ren was drawn to the dark side in the first place (aside from his uncle "sensing the dark" and for a moment contemplating killing Kylo).  Are three movies enough to show a proper turn?

See: The cartoon 'The Clone Wars' filling in all these blanks for why he would be having doubts and be susceptible for falling. It doesn't cover the fall itself, so you still have the parts of the on screen execution that don't work, and I still can't buy him slaughtering the younglings, but it does succeed at making the premise of the movie work.

On 1/9/2018 at 10:25 AM, Derfel Cadarn said:

I don't really buy why havibg taken out Vader, Yoda didn't rematch Sidious with Obi-Wan by his side. Barring of course continuity with the OT.  

I'm pretty sure that (again its from TCW) the retcon answer is that Yoda is given insight from the Force that they cannot win. Their task is to survive and train Skywalkers children and that one of them will achieve victory. Which they ultimately do, but now how Yoda and OBW thought. Force visions are tricky like that.

ETA: To further explain this suppose they do go back and take out Palpatine. At that point you have a couple of Jedi, who have just been declared traitors to the state on the heels of an "attempted coup", openly assassinating the lawful head of state of the republic who had just delivered an end to the war that the jedi had been unable to end (as far as the public can see it). Victory over Palpatine in this fashion may have defeated that individual Sith, but it doesn't necessarily serve the greater good and it doesn't serve balance. Even in martial victory there was no victory there for Yoda and OBW, and the act of fighting was how they had lost before that.

Edited by karaddin
ETA

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Finally saw it. Didn’t dislike it, but was somewhat disappointed. It was just unfocused. And it didn’t know when to end. Also, the answers to the two big mysteries of this trilogy better not be nobody and fucking nobody.

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On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 4:30 PM, Ran said:

@dbunting

In general the surviving-exposure-to-vacuum thing is generally based on the real science that shows you could remain conscious for about 15 seconds, and potentially survive almost 2 minutes beyond that (but not conscious).

Checked the Doctor Who episode @Seli mentions and, assuming that the scene which was in slow-motion for dramatic effect was going at a 2:1 ratio, Bill goes 15 seconds (30 seconds of screen time) before going unconscious, which is pretty neat and shows Doctor Who's writers did their research.

Ok, but the temp in space is supposedly around -270 deg. Wouldn't a body basically freeze, especially when she opened her eyes? I am no scientist and have no desire to research this, but seems impossible and I only raised this in my post because I don't remember any other scene similar to it in the series.

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30 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Ok, but the temp in space is supposedly around -270 deg. Wouldn't a body basically freeze, especially when she opened her eyes? 

Not immediately, because space is a vacuum and vacuum's are weird. The temperature would kill her very quickly, but not as quickly as the vacuum; and the vacuum would take around 15 seconds, like Ran said.

TLJ is not the first movie to take advantage of this fact and have people survive the vacuum of space very briefly; see also: Quill in the first Guardians of the Galaxy.

ETA: Here's a 2007 article about it http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/08/can_you_survive_in_space_without_a_spacesuit.html

Edited by Fez

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1 hour ago, dbunting said:

Ok, but the temp in space is supposedly around -270 deg. Wouldn't a body basically freeze, especially when she opened her eyes? I am no scientist and have no desire to research this, but seems impossible and I only raised this in my post because I don't remember any other scene similar to it in the series.

She surrounded herself with the Force ;)

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I'm really surprised people are so hung up on the vacuum/Leia scene. Only slightly more believable durations have happened in properties that don't have space magic to explain it all away. I just assumed that in addition to force pulling on the ship to drag herself back into the airlock, her subconscious survival instincts used a kind of force...force field to pull all the escaping air in the area close to hear so she's in an invisible bubble. It would still get cold (which is why she starts to frost over) but doesn't have the other problems associated with vacuum exposure. That doesn't seem even a tiny stretch compared to other situations force users have survived - Anakin should have been dead before Sidious even arrived after losing 3 limbs and being left cooking by lava.

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22 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

That's actually the canon reason per the Visual dictionary.

Works for me. I mean, it is Star Wars. I'll have to check out that visual dictionary, though. The Snoke entry looked interesting from the pieces I gathered for internet articles.

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Well the film is only going to make 1.6 billion and be the 6th hjighest grossing ilm of all time, so it's obvious a massive failure and Disney will have to close and cancel all Star Wars films. *rolls eyes*

 

Sorry. It's been a  day.

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26 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well the film is only going to make 1.6 billion and be the 6th hjighest grossing ilm of all time, so it's obvious a massive failure and Disney will have to close and cancel all Star Wars films. *rolls eyes*

 

Sorry. It's been a  day.

I guess all those “bought reviews” from critics really paid off!

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7 hours ago, dbunting said:

Ok, but the temp in space is supposedly around -270 deg. Wouldn't a body basically freeze, especially when she opened her eyes?

A vacuum is a really good insulator, so it takes time to cool down. And if you're close to a star, then that will be heating you faster than you're cooling (nobody is going to freeze sharing Mercury's orbit). Leia was presumably already in Crait's solar system, since they weren't using Lightspeed.

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On 11.1.2018. at 8:51 AM, Myshkin said:

Finally saw it. Didn’t dislike it, but was somewhat disappointed. It was just unfocused. And it didn’t know when to end. Also, the answers to the two big mysteries of this trilogy better not be nobody and fucking nobody.

What are supposedly the two big mysteries of this trilogy?

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22 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

What are supposedly the two big mysteries of this trilogy?

I know Myshkin very, very well, so can confidently claim to speak for him when I answer that the two big mysteries were clearly "Who is going to eat a porg?" and "Who will wield a lighsaber nunchuku?"

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12 hours ago, dbunting said:

Ok, but the temp in space is supposedly around -270 deg. Wouldn't a body basically freeze, especially when she opened her eyes? I am no scientist and have no desire to research this, but seems impossible and I only raised this in my post because I don't remember any other scene similar to it in the series.

She was in a (near) vacuum, which is a very good insulator.

So a big source of heat transfer would be due to radiative cooling which is relatively slow. Another would be evaporative cooling of liquids, which would be a lot faster but also limited mostly to exposed surface.  A first approach to radiative cooling is treating it as a black body problem. Which people of course have done before (https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/67503/how-fast-would-body-temperature-go-down-in-space) where someone comes to 12 minutes to hypothermia in a very simplified model.

Still loss of pressure and oxygen would be the more dangerous aspects.

 

Of course all that is only relevant in a universe where space magic and advanced technology do not exist.

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1 hour ago, Seli said:

Still loss of pressure and oxygen would be the more dangerous aspects.

… and just to put some useful analogies into that explanation:

The oxygen problem is clear, it’s the same as if I submerged Leia into water, ensuring death by asphyxiation. But Leia can be exposed to space for short periods, just as she (or I) can be submerged.

The pressure differential corresponds, roughly speaking, to quickly moving from 10 meters below water to the water’s surface. This leads to bubbles forming in your bloodstream. Again, this is not pleasant and potentially lethal, known as diver’s sickness or decompression, but perfectly survivable even by non-Force users.


I thought the scene was fine, and a good use of well-established, canonical Force skills (telekinesis) used by a lvl 70 Force user with non-aggressive outcome, completely in character with Leia.

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