The Last Jedi (Spoilers): Force-Choke or Tour-de-Force?

[Happy Ent]

20 hours ago, Buckwheat said:

C3PO is useless. I don't think his being in the movie had any comsequence that happened.

I cannot but again refer everybody to the (hilarious) cryptic crossword that I constructed for Last Jedi. The clue for 28 across reads

Quote

Gender-bending ruined tale. Which function did Threepio serve? (9)

It really doesn’t get funnier or cleverer than that.

 https://thorehusfeldt.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/useless-side-plot-with-rose-and-finn-both-acting-weird-55/

[Buckwheat]

So what I get from this is that English is useless because it does not differentiate between singular and plural nor between male and female Jedi. Right.

Happy Ent, that crossword is entirely too clever for me ... so, good job?

[felice]

9 hours ago, Buckwheat said:

So what I get from this is that English is useless because it does not differentiate between singular and plural nor between male and female Jedi. Right.

I'd call that an advantage. If you want to specify singular or plural, use "jedi knight(s)". And you can specify gender with pronouns, eg "the Jedi ignited their lightsaber" for a non-binary Jedi. Being forced to specify potentially irrelevant or unknown information whether you want to or not is more of a problem. Not that English doesn't have plenty of issues!

[Astromech]

30 minutes ago, felice said:

I'd call that an advantage. If you want to specify singular or plural, use "jedi knight(s)". And you can specify gender with pronouns, eg "the Jedi ignited their lightsaber" for a non-binary Jedi. Being forced to specify potentially irrelevant or unknown information whether you want to or not is more of a problem. Not that English doesn't have plenty of issues!

Yep, the ambiguity leads to discussion, theories, buzz, hype, exactly what Disney wants.

[Liver and Onions]

I want some Jedi porgs with tiny lightsabers (yes, lightsabers are not useful weapons for tiny combatants, but maybe they have to master the weapon as part of training and then get to design something more porg-friendly.) 

I would guess the title The Last Jedi is ambiguous in that sense- is it singular and refers to Luke? Or it is plural and includes Ben/Kylo and Rey? With no council, who decides who is a Jedi at what point? 

[Darth Richard II]

I believe Johnson confirmed the title refers to Luke at some point. With all the, eh, discussion, regarding other aspects of the film I think it got lost in the pile.

[Astromech]

30 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I believe Johnson confirmed the title refers to Luke at some point. With all the, eh, discussion, regarding other aspects of the film I think it got lost in the pile.

He did and seemed to be a bit confused by the massive internet reaction/speculation following translations of the title, especially after Luke is called "the last jedi" in the TFA title crawl, but it was one of those unintentional benefits for Disney's marketing campaign. Unless Disney is really that sinister and planned it all along.

[Buckwheat]

13 hours ago, felice said:

I'd call that an advantage. If you want to specify singular or plural, use "jedi knight(s)". And you can specify gender with pronouns, eg "the Jedi ignited their lightsaber" for a non-binary Jedi. Being forced to specify potentially irrelevant or unknown information whether you want to or not is more of a problem. Not that English doesn't have plenty of issues!

Eh. The purpose of language is to transfer information. The more information you can include in a short combination of signs, the more efficient the language.  

But anyway, that is really off-topic now.

8 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

 With no council, who decides who is a Jedi at what point? 

This is a good question. Not only that there is no council, there is nobody with a completed Jedi training left.

Maybe it says something about that in those mysterious books Rey stole.

5 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I believe Johnson confirmed the title refers to Luke at some point. With all the, eh, discussion, regarding other aspects of the film I think it got lost in the pile.

Thank you.

[Davrum]

15 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I believe Johnson confirmed the title refers to Luke at some point. With all the, eh, discussion, regarding other aspects of the film I think it got lost in the pile.

Johnson also doesn't seem to understand his own movie to be fair. I've heard him say in an interview or two that JJ is free to make out that Kylo Ren was lying when he said Rey's parents were nobodies.

Meanwhile, in Rian's own movie, it's actually not Kylo Ren who tells Rey her parents were nobodies, it's Rey who tells Kylo Ren.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Davrum said:

Johnson also doesn't seem to understand his own movie to be fair. I've heard him say in an interview or two that JJ is free to make out that Kylo Ren was lying when he said Rey's parents were nobodies.

Meanwhile, in Rian's own movie, it's actually not Kylo Ren who tells Rey her parents were nobodies, it's Rey who tells Kylo Ren.

No, that is entirely reasonable. Rey's biggest fear is that they're nobodies. They were worthless, didn't love her, and sold her up. And Ren is exploiting that fear. In the very same scene he says that 'you're no one, you're not important - but not to me'. It's all a bit of negging and emotional manipulation designed to get her to see him as her only hope for someone who cares about her and make her dependent on him. 

She doesn't know for certain. 

[Corvinus85]

10 hours ago, Buckwheat said:

This is a good question. Not only that there is no council, there is nobody with a completed Jedi training left.

Maybe it says something about that in those mysterious books Rey stole.

Yoda tells Luke he can't be a Jedi until he faces Vader. Maybe force ghost Luke can tell Rey something similar.

Though considering how these movies have treated force users, and Happy Ent's theories about the films and postmodernism, I can see Rey start calling herself Jedi and no one dare say otherwise. 

[Jen'ari]

On 22/01/2018 at 7:16 PM, felice said:

I'd call that an advantage. If you want to specify singular or plural, use "jedi knight(s)". And you can specify gender with pronouns, eg "the Jedi ignited their lightsaber" for a non-binary Jedi. Being forced to specify potentially irrelevant or unknown information whether you want to or not is more of a problem. Not that English doesn't have plenty of issues!

It isn’t just a Jedi thing, the Sith have the same.

 

Also someone else mentioned about Rey calling herself Jedi, I’ve no issue with that, she’s a good character, if Kylo ever calls himself Sith though, that’s a different story, complete embarrassment to the dark side, his only saving grace is that he wasn’t as much of an embarrassment as his master.

[Davrum]

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

No, that is entirely reasonable. Rey's biggest fear is that they're nobodies. They were worthless, didn't love her, and sold her up. And Ren is exploiting that fear. In the very same scene he says that 'you're no one, you're not important - but not to me'. It's all a bit of negging and emotional manipulation designed to get her to see him as her only hope for someone who cares about her and make her dependent on him. 

She doesn't know for certain. 

She does know. She has always known. She was a little girl who'd had a life with them when they left her, not an oblivious baby.

Kylo tells her this. "You know who they are. Say it."

It's Rey who says her parents were nobodies, not Kylo. What Kylo subsequently tells her (and us in the audience) is what he saw when he was inside Rey's head. He tells her (and us) it is no longer her secret. That he now knows that she is not like him - the spawn of Force Royalty.

The notion that Rey has always known is supported by her words in the cave. "Show me my parents." She doesn't ask who her parents were. She doesn't need to. She already knows.

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, Davrum said:

She does know. She has always known. She was a little girl who'd had a life with them when they left her, not an oblivious baby.

Kylo tells her this. "You know who they are. Say it."

It's Rey who says her parents were nobodies, not Kylo. What Kylo subsequently tells her (and us in the audience) is what he saw when he was inside Rey's head. He tells her (and us) it is no longer her secret. That he now knows that she is not like him - the spawn of Force Royalty.

The notion that Rey has always known is supported by her words in the cave. "Show me my parents." She doesn't ask who her parents were. She doesn't need to. She already knows.

Or again, that's her fear. Just like Luke's fear is that he would face Vader and it would be himself. Fears aren't always literal. 

Kylo knows that Rey's biggest fear is that they're nobodies. He makes her say it. Her hope is that this isn't true. 

[DMC]

7 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Yoda tells Luke he can't be a Jedi until he faces Vader. Maybe force ghost Luke can tell Rey something similar.

You must face Kylo Ren again...because "third time's a charm" is a Jedi prophecy.

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Kylo knows that Rey's biggest fear is that they're nobodies. He makes her say it. Her hope is that this isn't true. 

I still think it'd be really lame if they reneged on this, but after watching the scene a second and third time, I could see this type of justification.  Like Kylo force-conned her.

[Bronn Stone]

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

 

I still think it'd be really lame if they reneged on this, but after watching the scene a second and third time, I could see this type of justification.  Like Kylo force-conned her.

It was my take on the first viewing.  Wasn't sure if Kylo knew it or not but didn't believe him for a second. 

[Davrum]

On 1/24/2018 at 11:59 AM, Kalbear said:

Or again, that's her fear. Just like Luke's fear is that he would face Vader and it would be himself. Fears aren't always literal. 

Kylo knows that Rey's biggest fear is that they're nobodies. He makes her say it. Her hope is that this isn't true. 

That's not how the film plays it though. Ridley delivers the line with the resignation of truth, not the trepidation of fear.

What Rey sees in the cave (that there are actually many Reys) and the demonstration of Force ability by the broom boy (who is un-named, and thus metaphorically un-special) supports the idea that Rey is just one of many in whom the Force is awakening rather than the spawn of Force royalty.

 

[Kalbear]

Now, personally, I think the most satisfying thing and the best thing is if she and Kylo are both telling the truth at that point. I would like that the most. But I can see it not being that weird to change it to something else, or add more.

Personally, that was one of the most satisfying parts of TLJ. I love that Rey had all these hopes and dreams on being born from royalty - just like every princess story ever, just like every fantasy story ever - and they're dashed, and she still has to go get fucking shit done. 

And she does, because she made herself into what she is. 

[felice]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Rey had all these hopes and dreams on being born from royalty - just like every princess story ever, just like every fantasy story ever

Did she? I thought that was just the audience. All she wanted was for her family to come back; I didn't pick up on any suggestion that she thought there was anything special about them beyond being hers. Not before that conversation with Kylo, anyway, which was leaving it a bit late.

[Corvinus85]

27 minutes ago, felice said:

Did she? I thought that was just the audience. All she wanted was for her family to come back; I didn't pick up on any suggestion that she thought there was anything special about them beyond being hers. Not before that conversation with Kylo, anyway, which was leaving it a bit late.

Remember her meeting with BB-8, when she says her origin is a secret, too? Classified... I think she believed her parents were someone of importance who had gone on a mission.