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The Last Jedi (Spoilers): Force-Choke or Tour-de-Force?

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18 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

*personal pet peeve engaged*

Vader doesn't actually emphasize the word choke when he says that sentence! I don't know why I always see it written that way. And Vader has always been a sarcastic butthole, at least in 4 and 5. Although if you don't like the scene, I forgive you. :P

*disengage*

I hear the emphasis when I watch it (which was a couple days ago).  It's a terrible line.

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I don't really like Vader in any of Rogue One.  The last scene is awesome in a vacuum, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it fits very well in the overall story of 4-6 (I know fans explain this away with all kinds of concocted excuses, I just don't particularly like any of them).  And while I'm at it, I think they could have done the entire empire storyline without Tarkin or Vader at all.  They could have easily told that story with minimal screen time, and that screen time limited to holograms.  I think the story would have been better served.

But even with that, I think R1 is better than these last two simply because they nail the tone perfectly.  There are scenes here and there which could be reworked or done better, but the setting and the tone were amazing.  TLJ and TFA the tone is... off.  I don't mind it, and some of it works, but I definitely see why those complaints are valid.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I'm inclined to agree with you and that is quite disappointing. I liked Kylo Ren in TFA, but by the end of TLJ where he was basically still storming around in a strop like a teenager I had lost interest. If the whole of the New Order is going to get behind him then he needs to have a lot more gravitas and instil some fear in people. It seems rather silly having him in charge of anything.

I didn't like him in TFA, in fact, I thought he was one of the weaker elements...the story itself, lost boy w/hero parents rebels and turns to the dark side is fine, nothing really 'new' there though, but that's okay, SW is about, or was about, those timeless stories and putting a new spin on them, however the delivery didn't work for me as he wasn't menacing, I couldn't take him seriously in the scene with Rey in the chair, and he is the same at the end, no more powerful, no more scary....so I don't see evolution to a big bad.

Edited by Cas Stark

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31 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I just don't see it, he's not really scary, the characterization is nothing special, I can't understand the comparison to Heath Ledger's joker, like at all.  He isn't even particularly competent.  I have no feeling that he will possibly win in the end or even that he is very dangerous.  He carries no menace.  Even granting that Vader is one of the all time great villains in cinema history, he doesn't seem to measure up, and by measure up I don't mean he has to be 'like' Vader, Smoke was lame also.  But he should still seem like a serious, powerful antagonist.   Is his appeal then really about macro commentary on arrogant boys and deconstructing the SW 'myth' so it's somehow 'fresh' to have the arch villain be a bumbling immature loser?... If so, I count it as weak sauce.  CGI Peter Cushing is 100 times a better villain to me.

People are really making this comparison? If so, that's absurd.

I totally agree with everything you said here. I wanted to like him but he's just too damn whiney still.

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1 hour ago, aceluby said:

I hear the emphasis when I watch it (which was a couple days ago).  It's a terrible line.

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I don't really like Vader in any of Rogue One.  The last scene is awesome in a vacuum, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it fits very well in the overall story of 4-6 (I know fans explain this away with all kinds of concocted excuses, I just don't particularly like any of them).  And while I'm at it, I think they could have done the entire empire storyline without Tarkin or Vader at all.  They could have easily told that story with minimal screen time, and that screen time limited to holograms.  I think the story would have been better served.

But even with that, I think R1 is better than these last two simply because they nail the tone perfectly.  There are scenes here and there which could be reworked or done better, but the setting and the tone were amazing.  TLJ and TFA the tone is... off.  I don't mind it, and some of it works, but I definitely see why those complaints are valid.

You're definitely in the minority with regards to Vader in Rogue One, but I do agree with you.  The thing that annoyed me was Vader being portrayed at the peak of his power in that scene with the Rebels, when he is nowhere near that fast or that strong with the force at that point in time (again, he has no arms, no legs, needs help breathing...and he is 20 years older than he was in Revenge of the Sith). 

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24 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

You're definitely in the minority with regards to Vader in Rogue One, but I do agree with you.  The thing that annoyed me was Vader being portrayed at the peak of his power in that scene with the Rebels, when he is nowhere near that fast or that strong with the force at that point in time (again, he has no arms, no legs, needs help breathing...and he is 20 years older than he was in Revenge of the Sith). 

Surely his robot arms and legs are pretty decent?

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Eggegg said:

After 2 movies I'm still yet to understand the point of Phasma, other than to sell toys and look good on movie posters. Her and Finn are real wasted opportunities to delve into the mentality of being within 'The Empire', and their storylines and back story appear to have been thrown to the side due to lack of time or will to tell that story. 

 

I don't think there is a point to her. They wanted a big female stormtrooper officer to differentiate from what are normally men, and there she is.

It's a bit character in both films. I don't think she is meant to be more even though so many people here wanted her to be because oh my God it is Gwendoline Christie.

On 4-1-2018 at 0:20 PM, mormont said:

- Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill are phenomenally good, and so is Daisy Ridley. .

Fisher and Hamill are indeed acting very well in this film, and in Hamill's case that is really remarkably professional given how much and how often he's now told us that he was appalled by what Rian Johnson did to Luke's character ( Or "Jake Skywalker" as Mark Hamill calls this character).

Edited by Calibandar

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I distinctly recall that Phasma was originally a man until there was some spontaneous decision to have the role played by a woman instead. 

I agree that Phasma is indeed a bit character.

Darth,

There's some difficulty because  a lot of the junket interviews are already cut up by the media they belong to, and also because Hamill would do a dozen or more of them in a single sitting so you'll find him in the same outfits answering different interviewers.

That said, have seen a few full ones. Junket ones are just a few minutes, though.

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17 minutes ago, Ran said:

I distinctly recall that Phasma was originally a man until there was some spontaneous decision to have the role played by a woman instead. 

I agree that Phasma is indeed a bit character.

Darth,

There's some difficulty because  a lot of the junket interviews are already cut up by the media they belong to, and also because Hamill would do a dozen or more of them in a single sitting so you'll find him in the same outfits answering different interviewers.

That said, have seen a few full ones. Junket ones are just a few minutes, though.

Yeah, I guess I get touchy when people claim Hamil for their, uh :side". He obviously liked some stuff and hated other stuff. You know, like a normal person. :P

I read somewhere Phasma's role was actually increased in TFA during filming.

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The film needed less Phasma and more Holdo and DJ.

 

9 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm curious, for people who like Driver and his role, what makes him a good villain? 

The dude is essentially a school-shooter, anyone within his grasp and without Force capabilities is his plaything and Driver is 100% convincing in the role. Maybe even more than 100%. Earthly science doesn't appear to apply to the galaxy far, far away so I'm not sure how maths works there either.

There hasn't been a popcorn movie villain even close to as menacing since Ledger's Joker.

 

6 hours ago, Rubicante said:

You're definitely in the minority with regards to Vader in Rogue One, but I do agree with you.  The thing that annoyed me was Vader being portrayed at the peak of his power in that scene with the Rebels, when he is nowhere near that fast or that strong with the force at that point in time (again, he has no arms, no legs, needs help breathing...and he is 20 years older than he was in Revenge of the Sith). 

Vader's not extraordinarily fast in that scene compared to anything we see in A New Hope. He moves down that corridor as if he's taken his lightsaber out for a Sunday stroll to help his porridge digest. He's only fighting a bunch of anonymous, disposable Rebel redshirts after all. Dude can probably wax a platoon of those fools in his sleep.

The scene is unnecessary in narrative terms though, and essentially meaningless fan-pandering. If they wanted Vader in the film they should have had him fight someone meaningful, like Chirrut and Baze.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I feel like I'm one of like two people in the world who actually watched an UNEDITED version of that Hamil interview sometimes.

There are multiple interviews where Hamill has voiced his displeasure.

I thought this was well known and accepted among both reasonable and unreasonable people.

Some of those can be seen on Youtube. Some are in print. I encourage you to stimulate your mind young Frodo, go out into the Wilderlands and read....

There is also no discussion about Mark Hamill being claimed for one side as far as I'm concerned. He's been remarkably outspoken on how he does not like what's been done to the character, that it it feels entirely against what he ( and also George Lucas) intended and imagined for the character. Which is in itself not surprising because very few people saw this coming, it wa sby no means a natural outcome for his story, it is yet another twist, invented to invert expectations ( a theme in this film, as you will have noticed). Having been this outspoken on repeated occassion, there is certainly no doubt how he feels. We were told early on during filming that he was very displeased but then we didn't know why yet. Now that the film has screened and he has been surprised by the news that his character has also died, his opinion has not changed to the positive. Understandably.

At the same time he's also been very polite about Rian Johnson's work, hailing him as the best man for this sort of a job.

Clearly he says that despite his personal disapproval about what he invented for Luke, he feels Johnson did a terrific job with this film.

Now, could Mark Hamill ever be outspoken enough for some people? No. There are people who will always try to peddle us some sort of argument in which they're saying "see, he's also praising Rian Johnson's work, he's probably changed his mind now, and that is really all we want to hear". But that, really, reminds me of Grima Wormtongue.

Edited by Calibandar

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8 hours ago, Eggegg said:

Surely his robot arms and legs are pretty decent?

I wonder if he has those robo legs and arms removed when he hangs out in his bacta tank on Mustafar,  If so, can you imagine how long Director Krennic had to wait in order to see him?

17 hours ago, Eggegg said:

After 2 movies I'm still yet to understand the point of Phasma, other than to sell toys and look good on movie posters. Her and Finn are real wasted opportunities to delve into the mentality of being within 'The Empire', and their storylines and back story appear to have been thrown to the side due to lack of time or will to tell that story. 
 

It's interesting (and pathetic) how similar Captain Phasma and Brienne of Tarth (exclusively from the Game of Thrones television show) are.  Both are brutes and bullies, both have had zero character development, and both can mystically teleport from one location to another over unrealistic periods of time (Phasma from trash compactor in Star Killer Base to Snoke's ship, Brienne between any two spots in Westeros over the course of one episode).  I'm probably missing some other similarities.

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23 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Popcorn for what?  Lucas has used a guide archetype dying in the first film in two trilogies already.  Given his obvious cares for thematic parellells between trilogies, no doubt the same was going to happen there.  Luke dying isn't the problem.

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28 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Popcorn for what?  Lucas has used a guide archetype dying in the first film in two trilogies already.  Given his obvious cares for thematic parellells between trilogies, no doubt the same was going to happen there.  Luke dying isn't the problem.

You may have missed all the screaming about how the new films violates Lucas vision then. (Not sarcasm, you may have actually missed it, in which case I envy thee).

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1 hour ago, Rubicante said:

both can mystically teleport from one location to another over unrealistic periods of time (Phasma from trash compactor in Star Killer Base to Snoke's ship, Brienne between any two spots in Westeros over the course of one episode).

Everyone can Fast Travel in TVesteros, that's not a Brienne-specific trait.

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

So in Lucas's original plan, the new trilogy was supposed to start with Rey learning from Luke? Well, that would have solved the issues with her showing exceptional Force skills without any training.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

You may have missed all the screaming about how the new films violates Lucas vision then. (Not sarcasm, you may have actually missed it, in which case I envy thee).

Nothing in that article remotely counters what Mark Hamill said, if that is what you are referring to.  Or do you actually think people have latched onto his comments because Luke died?  Just baffling.  I legitimately have no idea why you think this is some big revelation.

The article is amusing though.  Didn't they supposedly toss Lucas's idea after they got it?  Guess not if that's the case,

Edited by Slurktan

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14 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm curious, for people who like Driver and his role, what makes him a good villain? 

I just don't see it, he's not really scary, the characterization is nothing special, I can't understand the comparison to Heath Ledger's joker, like at all.  He isn't even particularly competent.  I have no feeling that he will possibly win in the end or even that he is very dangerous.  He carries no menace.  Even granting that Vader is one of the all time great villains in cinema history, he doesn't seem to measure up, and by measure up I don't mean he has to be 'like' Vader, Smoke was lame also.  But he should still seem like a serious, powerful antagonist.   Is his appeal then really about macro commentary on arrogant boys and deconstructing the SW 'myth' so it's somehow 'fresh' to have the arch villain be a bumbling immature loser?... If so, I count it as weak sauce.  CGI Peter Cushing is 100 times a better villain to me.

Okay, I'll bite.

Ren is interesting because this is a person who is not Mwahahaha evil like Vader liked to be, or like the Emperor was. He isn't particularly cruel like Vader could be. He isn't absolutely assured of his position in the universe. He is a young villain.

And the scariest thing about him is his unpredictability. He's not like the Joker in that he wants to cause chaos - Ren's plans are thoughtful and he uses nuance and emotional appeal to get what he wants. He is like the Joker in that his emotions are very much all over the place, and he can go from being calm and deliberate to full fledged spittle flying screaming.

The other part about him that is scary is that his evil is understandable. He's still evil, he's still an asshole, but he does so with fairly good points for him. We never understood Vader and the Emperor's viewpoint other than ultimate power and being a dick, but that isn't Ren. Ren wants to destroy the Jedi, he wants to become powerful, he wants to earn respect and fear, and he wants revenge on a very personal level for the failures that his parents and pseudo-parents were. Being able to get why he has chosen darkness while also hating his actions is a great dichotomy that is best represented in some of our favorite books and shows. Heath Ledger's Joker, by comparison - we have zero idea why he wants to do, well, anything. We have a very good idea why Ren has turned out the way he has, and we get it, even as we despise it.

Him not being perfect and failing at some things is interesting in that his reaction to it is often unbridled violence and destruction and cruelty. When he loses control - which is often - he strikes out blindly. This makes him less effective but far more unpredictable, and that unpredictability is compelling. It means that when he teams up with Rey we don't know for certain if he's  turned, if he's going to turn her, if he's going to sell her out to Snoke, etc. When he sees Luke we don't know what he is going to do or how he's going to do it. 

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8 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Nothing in that article remotely counters what Mark Hamill said, if that is what you are referring to.  Or do you actually think people have latched onto his comments because Luke died?  Just baffling.  I legitimately have no idea why you think this is some big revelation.

The article is amusing though.  Didn't they supposedly toss Lucas's idea after they got it?  Guess not if that's the case,

They tossed a lot - mostly, they had the idea to focus on the new people instead of an old Han, Leia and Luke. But Luke as the old Jedi master teaching the new one has been kicked around since, IIRC, 1995.

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