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Why does Craster marry his daughters?


manchester_babe

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So their children aren't bastards, obviously.

My best guess is he has ample offerings to give to the Others. Perhaps he had a wildling wife, she died, and he took up incest to save his own skin. I don't believe we're told when he started offering his sons to the army of the dead, but being able to produce offspring at a walder frey type of pace is probably pretty useful in his agreement with the Others.

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3 hours ago, Blooddragon said:

To keep his bloodline pure 

This, yes. To keep the Black Blood concentrated so every Other created from his offspring retains the properties of house Hoare, free from the influence of magical control. The culmination of centuries of selective breeding and a sabotage of the Children's doomsday weapon. Too bad the rest of the plan didn't come together.

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There is no indication that Craster properly marries his daughters. It seems he just fucks them and calls that marriage. Perhaps that's enough for a wildling marriage, we don't know.

However, it is pretty clear why Craster feels a need to have multiple wives and has come to the point where his daughters have to fulfill that role - he has a pact with the Others. He gives them his sons. We don't know how often they want sons from him, but if they demand them rather often then the man has to produce children - especially sons - or a regular basis. Having sex with multiple women is the only way to accomplish that.

Considering that Craster is pretty much a hermit living outside the villages and clans the chances for him to find women willing to give him sons the conventional way are very low. His first wife/wives most likely weren't close kin but once he first made his deal with the Others the idea to use the daughters he got in his efforts to make sons to produce even more sons must have come up rather quickly.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

However, it is pretty clear why Craster feels a need to have multiple wives and has come to the point where his daughters have to fulfill that role - he has a pact with the Others.

Well, he's apparently told them something like this. Whether it ever happened seems a questionable matter for a number of reasons. 

To begin with, we have no reason to think Craster and the Others even speak a common language, or that the Others are open to negotiation of any sort on any topic.

Craster also lives quite near the Wall relative to the whole region beyond it.  It's difficult to believe that Others could be popping up so close to the Wall, so frequently, without rangers becoming aware of them long before the novels begin. 

Notice that according to LC Mormont, all the rangers do know Craster gives his sons "to the wood," so the rangers seem remarkably well informed about what's going on in this region.

Then there's the testimony of the wives, which seems... a little sketchy.  For instance:

Quote

He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton.

Sheep!  Is it, really, that Craster has been instructed by the "gods" somehow that sheep are a satisfactory substitute?  I mean, do the Others have a taste for mutton too?  Are they transforming normal sheep into murderous, blue-eyed ice-sheep, that we will see in future books?  I wonder.

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My opinion: Craster is not a good looking man. Neither is he young and strong; probably hasn't been for some time. But he likes his "pleasures", just like Walder Frey. Neither man can get enough. So he's gotten into the habit of "making" his own future wives, generation after generation of them. He may also have "exposed" the first boy baby (doesn't want competition; some illegal 20th c Mormon polygamous families expelled their sons, too), and thus attracted an Other. They began coming around for more. It became a cycle - Craster leaves out his sacrifice and the Other goes away with it. It may have gotten pretty scary when a new "sacrifice" wasn't forthcoming in time. This would explain the sheep and would not require that Craster and the Other "spoke" to one another or made any agreements.

Also, it doesn't require that Craster be a Stark.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that Craster properly marries his daughters. It seems he just fucks them and calls that marriage. Perhaps that's enough for a wildling marriage, we don't know.

Pretty much this. Wildlings steal/kidnap a woman of their fancy and call it a wife, so it wouldn't surprise me if Craster simply overpowered/raped his daughters and called it that.

Also, considering Gilly wants her baby to be a girl so she doesn't have to be sacrificed and just passively accepts that her daughter will also become Craster's wife, indicates that the girls are taught from a young age that when they begin their first bleeding they will very shortly afterwards become his wife and just accept it as normal.

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21 minutes ago, JNR said:

To begin with, we have no reason to think Craster and the Others even speak a common language, or that the Others are open to negotiation of any sort on any topic.

We definitely have reason to believe stuff like that because Craster's wives indicate that such a pact exists. In fact, they indicate that their sons are (some of) the Others. Their sources on that might be a lot better than anything we learned about the Others from any of the other characters as of yet.

In addition, we know from the Prologue that the Others can talk. That means they could (learn to) speak the Common Tongue or the Old Tongue.

Craster is the first hint that humans can reach an understanding with the Others. George didn't get around to explore on that idea as of yet but it is pretty clear that this kind of plot is going to become more and more important as the Others plot is finally moving more into the center of the story.

The next step could be the Weeper and his goons deciding to join the Others. Or wildlings within the Tormund's group showing their true colors and doing stuff in the name of the Others. TWoIaF indicated that there are wildlings out there which keep strange and cruel gods... Not all of them may be as honest and straightforward as Craster - who never denied the fact that his gods - the Others - are going to keep him safe in winter. That's why he didn't join Mance, and that's why he sees no need to join the Watch at Castle Black. He is perfectly safe at his own keep.

Other wildlings with similar agreements might be the eyes and ears of the Others within Mance's army. And some of them might now be south of the Wall in Castle Black and elsewhere...

21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Craster also lives quite near the Wall relative to the whole region beyond it.  It's difficult to believe that Others could be popping up so close to the Wall, so frequently, without rangers becoming aware of them long before the novels begin.

The Others can obviously be very stealthy if they want to. The rangers are not everywhere nor are any of them inclined to believe any stories about the Others or interpret signs and traces they might find as things pointing towards the Others.

You also do recall that the Others got their planted wights very close to the Wall in AGoT, right? The ones who later try to kill the entire leadership of the Watch? Nobody saw them getting this close to the Wall, either.

21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Notice that according to LC Mormont, all the rangers do know Craster gives his sons "to the wood," so the rangers seem remarkably well informed about what's going on in this region.

Sure, they know that the man keeps strange gods. What they, most likely, don't know is that those gods are literally the Others, their ancient enemy. Or rather - they might also know that Craster worships the Others as gods but what they don't know is that the Others actually answered his prayers and physically came to his keep to interact with him.

Craster is his own master. It is not up to the NW to tell him what to do with his sons or daughters. If he wants to sacrifice the former and fuck the latter that's obviously fine with the Watch. It is live and let live beyond the Wall. The Watch only interferes with the wildlings when they become a threat to the Wall and the Realm. They don't tell them how to live or who to worship.

21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Then there's the testimony of the wives, which seems... a little sketchy.

That is Gilly. She is pretty young. We don't know how often Craster has sons these days, nor do we know how often she has seen the Others. But she indicates that she did see them, at least once. Jon asks her about the gods Craster worships in ACoK. And he realizes that she is describing about the Others.

The older women might know much more. They could have been even there when the Others first came to the keep - or when Craster first went out into the woods making contact with them.

Presumably this would have happened in one very bad winter some decades ago. Craster and his family at that time would have been starving, close to death, and then this opportunity presented itself - either because Craster approached the Others or the Others approached Craster.

Considering the origins of Craster it is hardly surprising that the man ended up being forced to go down that road. As the son of a crow - and not exactly the most sympathetic guy on earth - he was, most likely, never all that popular with the other wildlings. Hard winters are likely doubly hard for such people... He wouldn't have gotten much support and help from his neighbors.

21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Sheep!  Is it, really, that Craster has been instructed by the "gods" somehow that sheep are a satisfactory substitute?  I mean, do the Others have a taste for mutton too?  Are they transforming normal sheep into murderous, blue-eyed ice-sheep, that we will see in future books?  I wonder.

Could very well be that the Others also do demand blood sacrifices. And who knows? Perhaps Craster's wives are wrong about what happens to the sons? Perhaps they only believe they turn into Others without knowing that for a fact? It is not all that likely that they ever saw such a physical transformation happening. But then - perhaps they did recognize some of their sons in the Others that later came to the keep.

It is also possible that good old Craster doesn't really know what his gods want of him. He might try to pacify and satisfy them with animal sacrifices while he has no sons to offer to them. They do not necessarily have to demand that of him for him to conclude that he should do that. 

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On 1/5/2018 at 6:34 PM, manchester_babe said:

Why does Craster marry his daughters?

He doesn't want his kids to be bastards.  Besides, he's the king of his own keep and they are his subjects.  He rules.  Craster is a Stark.  Maybe the purer the Stark blood the more compatible the babies are with the white walkers.

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22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We definitely have reason to believe stuff like that because Craster's wives indicate that such a pact exists.

I think we have reason to believe Craster has told them such a pact exists... but as for what was really happening, I'll take Jeor Mormont as a superior authority. 

He says all the rangers know Craster was "giving his sons to the woods," and I take this to mean babies were probably found there, and left there by the rangers despite the disgust they very likely felt.

But none of the rangers have noticed or reported sentient ice demons that closely resemble Others from ancient myths (except that they're prepared to parley in a peaceable manner to achieve diplomatic ends). 

And yet Craster has obviously spent decades doing the same things we find him doing in books 2 and 3.... because he is literally the only male human being at his keep -- one man, not a young one, among many women of varying ages.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You also do recall that the Others got their planted wights very close to the Wall in AGoT, right? The ones who later try to kill the entire leadership of the Watch?

Well, I recall that there were wights found.  Wights, however, can walk.  I don't recall that the Others did any planting.

There are two scenes in canon featuring Others -- one in the prologue of AGOT, which takes place nine days ride by horse north by northwest -- which is, of course, by far the furthest north we've ever gone in canon -- and the other in the aftermath of the Fist, two books later, and quite a bit further south.

One is left with the impression that, just as in the myths, the Others have come from the uttermost north and are gradually moving south.  It seems an uncertain matter that the Others have spent decades picking up babies from Craster's keep prior to AGOT.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But she indicates that she did see them, at least once

OK, let's take a look at that.

Quote

“What color are their eyes?” he asked her.

“Blue. As bright as blue stars, and as cold.”

She has seen them, he thought.

Jon's future as a skilled prosecutor seems doubtful here.  He jumps to the conclusion that she has seen them simply because she knows what color their eyes are...

...but he somehow forgets that he himself knows their eye color too.  And Jon has never, not once in his life, seen an Other. 

He has, however, heard stories, and that's how he knows their eye color.  What stories has Craster told his daughterwives?  We can but guess.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Craster is his own master. It is not up to the NW to tell him what to do with his sons or daughters. If he wants to sacrifice the former and fuck the latter that's obviously fine with the Watch.

Agreed.  If he wants to mimic religious nutjobs that have existed since time began in GRRM's world and in ours, and to act on that basis in a manner that involves dumping babies in the woods, the Watch are not going to stop him.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could very well be that the Others also do demand blood sacrifices. And who knows? Perhaps Craster's wives are wrong about what happens to the sons? Perhaps they only believe they turn into Others without knowing that for a fact? It is not all that likely that they ever saw such a physical transformation happening.

On all this we agree.

I also note that if Craster were somehow keeping those at his keep safe by donating sons to the Others, we would logically expect the other free folk to have been murdered on a mass scale by the Others long ago -- long before AGOT began.    Because none of them were doing what Craster does (and this is almost certainly what Ygritte has in mind in claiming Craster "bears a heavy curse," that he has committed mass kinslaying).

But as many references establish, the wildlings' troubles with the Others seem to be considerably more recent than that.  So I'm not sure this pact with "the gods" exists anywhere but in Craster's mind.

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7 minutes ago, JNR said:

I think we have reason to believe Craster has told them such a pact exists... but as for what was really happening, I'll take Jeor Mormont as a superior authority. 

Mormont isn't an authority on the matter. There is no indication that either he or his people have ever investigated this matter. Craster's wives, on the other hand, might be right there, witnessing and perhaps even participating in what Craster does with his sons. They live with him. Mormont and the rangers do not. They know stuff. Mormont only suspects things or has heard rumors.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

He says all the rangers know Craster was "giving his sons to the woods," and I take this to mean babies were probably found there, and left there by the rangers despite the disgust they very likely felt.

That is entirely conjecture. There is no indication that the rangers or any members of the NW ever found proof of what Craster did to his sons - if they did, one would assume this would have come up when he and Jon talked about the entire thing. In addition, such heinous things would likely have had an effect on this whole 'Craster is a friend of the Watch' thing. It is one thing to only speculate what a man is doing with/to his own, and quite another to actually have proof of child sacrifice.

They might still not move in on Craster since that's not their job. But they would likely no longer consider the man a friend.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

But none of the rangers have noticed or reported sentient ice demons that closely resemble Others from ancient myths (except that they're prepared to parley in a peaceable manner to achieve diplomatic ends).  And yet Craster has obviously spent decades doing the same things we find him doing in books 2 and 3.

If you go back to the Prologue you'll realize that the Others are very difficult to spot. They only show up at night and when they come they use a spell or their magical armor to camouflage them. You only see them when you are very close to them. It is hardly surprising that no ranger ever saw them. And they don't leave any traces as far as we know.

The Others are very sneaky lot and it is not that the Watch has been looking for them - or was in the shape to do any grand expeditions - in the last decades.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, I recall that there were wights found.  Wights, however, can walk.  I don't recall that the Others did any planting.

Oh, I didn't mean to say the Others carried them to the weirwood grove but you should keep in mind that wights actually are low and clumsy zombies. They do not run, and they do leave traces. The idea that two wights walked hundreds of miles all by themselves without the Others shielding or protecting them during the journey isn't very likely.

In fact, if you ask me - the Others likely got Benjen's companion when they were already very close to Castle Black and then jumped on the chance to use them the way they did. 

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

There are two scenes in canon featuring Others -- one in the prologue of AGOT, which takes place nine days ride by horse north by northwest -- which is, of course, by far the furthest north we've ever gone in canon -- and the other in the aftermath of the Fist, two books later, and quite a bit further south.

That doesn't sound right. The gang has passed through seven empty villages when they reach Craster's in ACoK - and Whitetree was the fourth - and George really gives the appearance that they had been on the road for days by the time they reached Whitetree and weeks by the time they reached Craster's. The Fist is farther north still, and Jon and Qhorin went further north still.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

One is left with the impression that, just as in the myths, the Others have come from the uttermost north and are gradually moving south.  It seems an uncertain matter that the Others have spent decades picking up babies from Craster's keep prior to AGOT.

It is the impression Craster's wives give us. They are our sources. Speculation whether this makes sense is pretty futile when we don't really know where the limits of the powers of the Others - the impression is that they can be very sneaky.

Here is the full exchange between Jon and Gilly:

Quote

He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That’s why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep’s gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . .”

[...]

“What gods?” Jon was remembering that they’d seen no boys in Craster’s Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself.
The cold gods,” she said. “The ones in the night. The white shadows.

[...]

“What color are their eyes?” he asked her.
Blue. As bright as blue stars, and as cold.
She has seen them, he thought. Craster lied.

Gilly is consistent here. She talks about things she has seen, things that happen at certain times and under certain circumstances - when the 'white cold' (i.d. snow and frost, most likely) comes. She also know that the Others come in the night and that they are 'white shadows'. And she knows their eye color. There is no indication that she is repeating stories she has heard here. She is talking about things that actually happened. There is no reason to believe Craster killed his animals at some altar in the woods he only visits alone.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

...but he somehow forgets that he himself knows their eye color too.  And Jon has never, not once in his life, seen an Other. 

Jon does indeed confuse the Others with the wights. That's why he concludes that Craster has lied. Mormont earlier asked Craster about wights, not Others. Until the Fist the Watch has no reason to believe the Others are truly out there. They can suspect it but they have heard no reports about them being out there.

Gilly is clearly describing and talking about the Others not the wights. The wights and the Others have the same kind of eyes but the average wight isn't a 'white shadow' nor are the wights capable to talk to or reach agreements with humans. Jon doesn't connect all the dots correctly.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

He has, however, heard stories, and that's how he knows their eye color.  What stories has Craster told his daughterwives?  We can but guess.

We have no reason to speculate about stories here. Especially since Jon himself also doesn't think about Others or stories. He thinks about wights, not Others. They are not discussing stories or rumors, they are discussing things that actually happened at Craster's Keep.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

I also note that if Craster were somehow keeping those at his keep safe by donating sons to the Others, we would logically expect the other free folk to have been murdered on a mass scale by the Others long ago -- long before AGOT began.    Because none of them were doing what Craster does (and this is almost certainly what Ygritte has in mind in claiming Craster "bears a heavy curse," that he has committed mass kinslaying).

That doesn't have to be the case. The Others might have made this bargain with Craster because they needed his sons for their own purposes. If that's the case then they may have chosen Craster specifically for this bargain because he was an isolated hermit who deliberately kept himself apart from the other wildlings. But there are hints - especially in Jon's talk with Mormont about Craster's gods - that Craster isn't the only wildling to follow Craster's 'cruel gods'. There seem to be others. And if that's true then other wildlings are likely to have given the Others their due in sons in the past decades, too.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

But as many references establish, the wildlings' troubles with the Others seem to be considerably more recent than that.  So I'm not sure this pact with "the gods" exists anywhere but in Craster's mind.

There are summer snows in the North. There are likely summer snows beyond the Wall, too. We do know that the Others are around in summer as well as in winter beyond the Wall. Gilly doesn't have a long memory but we do know from Dalla and Mance that the Others have been causing trouble for the wildlings for quite some time before Mance finally decided that they couldn't stand against them. We don't know how long but it could be easily enough years or even decades, especially if we consider the vastness of the lands. It would have begun in the farthest north, of course, but spread across all the lands beyond the Wall, and eventually a point would have been reached when most wildlings realized that they couldn't stand against them. Not by placating them with sons and other sacrifices, not by opposing them.

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On 1/5/2018 at 6:34 PM, manchester_babe said:

Why does Craster marry his daughters?

because it feels good?

I wonder if he got a change with granddaughters....

 

 

Theres thousands of keeps, villages, dwellings and yet Craster's keep is the only one on the map...

Why?

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