Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[Curled Finger]

Lord Harroway'sTown.  95 miles or 32 (ish) leagues from Harrenhall off the Red Fork.  Here is why I like this location:  

 

Alys was the daughter of Lucas Harroway, the new Lord of Harrenhal. A secret marriage took place in 39 AC, while Maegor was Hand, leading to Maegor's exile to Pentos. 

TWOIAF  Targ Kings: Maegor 

Would our author use the place of a King's secret marriage as the same site for a Prince's meeting and disappearance with a Lady?  

 

[divica]

I was listening to radio westeros.

What if aerys found out that Lyana was the knight of the laughing tree and rhaegar decided to kidnap her to saver her from her father?

However brandon heard the tale and things got out of control...

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, divica said:

I was listening to radio westeros.

What if aerys found out that Lyana was the knight of the laughing tree and rhaegar decided to kidnap her to saver her from her father?

However brandon heard the tale and things got out of control...

Ah, very good!  A save from Aerys is not a bad idea at all.   Radio Westeros ROCKS! 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Lord Harroway'sTown.  95 miles or 32 (ish) leagues from Harrenhall off the Red Fork.  Here is why I like this location:  

 

Alys was the daughter of Lucas Harroway, the new Lord of Harrenhal. A secret marriage took place in 39 AC, while Maegor was Hand, leading to Maegor's exile to Pentos. 

TWOIAF  Targ Kings: Maegor 

Would our author use the place of a King's secret marriage as the same site for a Prince's meeting and disappearance with a Lady?  

 

We had a super quick conversation in the RLJ thread on whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna boarded a ship after they took off. When we look at the map, the most plausible place they could have done that from is the Saltpans, which is closest or Maidenpool. Maidenpool is further, but Myles Mooton's family are the lords there, so it might make things that much easier. From Maidenpool, they could easily travel to Pentos.

That said, I think the Arya chapters are key to unraveling distances. Arya travels rather extensively through the riverlands, hits several important places. Arya starts out at the Inn at the crossroads, to the ruby ford, then castle Darry in Game. So we already know that these 3 places are in very close proximity to each other (not to mention they used to all be part of Darry lands before Robert's Rebellion) .Given how many days she travels from one place to the other, it can give an idea of the distance between point A and point B.

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

We had a super quick conversation in the RLJ thread on whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna boarded a ship after they took off. When we look at the map, the most plausible place they could have done that from is the Saltpans, which is closest or Maidenpool. Maidenpool is further, but Myles Mooton's family are the lords there, so it might make things that much easier. From Maidenpool, they could easily travel to Pentos.

That said, I think the Arya chapters are key to unraveling distances. Arya travels rather extensively through the riverlands, hits several important places. Arya starts out at the Inn at the crossroads, to the ruby ford, then castle Darry in Game. So we already know that these 3 places are in very close proximity to each other (not to mention they used to all be part of Darry lands before Robert's Rebellion) .Given how many days she travels from one place to the other, it can give an idea of the distance between point A and point B.

But they didn't go to Pentos, right?   There was no time.  We've also got to get them much further south and west, right?  Although hopping a ship may be precisely what they did.   Let me check Salt Pans...nope, nothing.   However, using scale method Salt Pans is roughly twice the distance east as Harroway Town is north.   That puts us at approximately 200 miles or 65 ish leagues?  Maidenpool is farther still.   I'm using Harrenhal as my starting point for all these distances.   We are just trying to determine where Lyanna disappeared from right?   I'm not seeing any route west that is remotely plausible from Harrenhal by land or water.   

We can search the towns to see if anything of note jumps out at us.   That was why I liked Harroway Town, but if it doesn't work we've got to find another place. 

[divica]

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah, very good!  A save from Aerys is not a bad idea at all.   Radio Westeros ROCKS! 

they are using some arguments for RLJ that I have never heard.

Sorry for the off topic but I never heard someone say that after ned told the KG that the last remaining targs and suposed rightful king escaped from westeros wihtout any KG, the 3 KG chosed to fight ned at the ToJ than go after the supposed rightful king. I think this says a lot. 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, divica said:

they are using some arguments for RLJ that I have never heard.

Sorry for the off topic but I never heard someone say that after ned told the KG that the last remaining targs and suposed rightful king escaped from westeros wihtout any KG, the 3 KG chosed to fight ned at the ToJ than go after the supposed rightful king. I think this says a lot. 

Honestly, divica, I've read the series easily 5 times all the way through and keep them handy for reference.   As you know I spent last weekend reading some AFFC and ADWD chapters.   I spend a lot of time in the books.  I think I've learned more about possibility between History of Westeros, Radio Westeros and this here little book club than from the books.   They are long and my memory is not what it was.  I know you enjoy other YouTube videos and I would be pleased to recommend Secrets of the Citadel for your listening pleasure.   Her videos are much shorter and she does a very good job with smaller topics.   Let me know if you enjoy her.    

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 11:26 AM, LynnS said:

A brother from the Night's Watch -- possibly Mance Rayder

I've been following this trail for a few weeks now. I think it is Mance. I did a reread tonight and the mention of the NW man giving a speech jumped right out at me. I never noticed it so clearly before. I'm beginning to really believe Mance is the KoTLT.

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

I've been following this trail for a few weeks now. I think it is Mance. I did a reread tonight and the mention of the NW man giving a speech jumped right out at me. I never noticed it so clearly before. I'm beginning to really believe Mance is the KoTLT.

Hi Edgar, welcome!  I think it could certainly be Mance, though I admit this is the 1st time I've ever seen that as a possibility.   I can't go all in on it without something.   A mention from Mance, Barristan recalling the black brother singing--just something.   I'm not great with foreshadowing or symbolism so I beg your pardon for not being able to dazzle you with something or worse yet, if I'm way off, so take it at your own risk.   Because of all the other important people in attendance at Harrenhal I'm thinking it should be Mance as another king-to-be noted and mentioned by our little Crannogman.   If you've got anything to add we would love to hear it.  

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

I've been following this trail for a few weeks now. I think it is Mance. I did a reread tonight and the mention of the NW man giving a speech jumped right out at me. I never noticed it so clearly before. I'm beginning to really believe Mance is the KoTLT.

Oh?  Why so?  At the very least, it would be interesting to hear his thoughts on the whole affair if he was the Black Brother.  It seems that sending singing brothers out to recruit has a history in the NW. 

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

I've been following this trail for a few weeks now. I think it is Mance. I did a reread tonight and the mention of the NW man giving a speech jumped right out at me. I never noticed it so clearly before. I'm beginning to really believe Mance is the KoTLT.

Ah geez, sorry I misunderstood what you wrote.   Mance is a pretty big guy isn't he?  How are you tying Mance into the KoTLT? 

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

I've been on a crazy weeks long reflection on the books that started with a good thread on the Night's Watch. Unfortunately the holidays got in the way of my getting all my thoughts down, so I'm just starting to get back to it now. I kind of came to this realization that so much of what happens in all the books revolves around the nature of secrets and the nature of lies and the power of both to effect events almost regardless of intention.I really think all the characters have in some way told half truths, withheld knowledge in order to protect someone, told outright lies to manipulate others, resisted looking at truths about themselves etc. but also revealed things sometimes in a veiled manner or even the master manipulators, like LF or Varys have given up some vital truth almost unwittingly. So, I've been trying to do some rereading with more of an eye for looking between the lines and trying to really study the emotional responses and states of the characters. It's hard to fully get down my point but one of the things that stuck out to me is GRRM's masterful use of what I call the riddle or repetition of three. I think Lyanna had three men in a sense: she was betrothed to Robert, was most likely impregnated by Rhaegar, but I think it's possible she was in love with the mystery man who was the KotLT, a man who almost intuitively recognized the true nobility of what she did in defending HR and selflessly honored her by riding in the tournament as her champion and was aided by the gods in achieving a minor miracle in winning. A noble trial by combat in a way. I think, if you're interested in looking at it, a reread of Jon and Mance's first meeting in ASoS is a great illustration in the subtle use GRRM employs in how people reveal and conceal truth in an attempt to protect themselves or gain insight into the other person. It's from Jon's POV so we get more first hand knowledge of how he's attempting to give Mance enough but not too much, but Mance is also doing the same to Jon. Jon uses the truth of how he felt at the feast of Winterfell to convince Mance of his lie about truly wanting to desert being true. I think Mance gives Jon a story about why he deserted and the truth is his motivation of wanting to live "where a kiss is not a crime" but I think the details of the story are veiled. I think the woman who mended his wounds is the same woman who mended HR's wounds in the Meera story to Bran. There are other hints too, in that chapter. There is a great physical description of Rattleshirt as a slight smallish man and we know Mel's glamours work best when they use a power of suggestion rather than an outright illusion. Then, of course, Jon mistakes the tall warrior looking Styr as the King, when in fact, the King is a man of middling height who plays a lute. GRRM is a tricksy bird! I've never been a proponent of Mance=Rhaegar but their are definitely some parallels and I think that may be why.

 

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

Also, Mance reveals to Jon in that chapter that one of his duties as a NW was to accompany the LC on a trip to Winterfell as a young man and on that trip he sees Jon and Robb playing as boys, so I don't think it's a great leap to think it's possible he made other trips too. Possibly as a group of wandering crows, especially one who might have the ability, like Dareon under Jon's command, to instill a passion for the calling of men to serve through the power of song.

[Curled Finger]

25 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

I've been on a crazy weeks long reflection on the books that started with a good thread on the Night's Watch. Unfortunately the holidays got in the way of my getting all my thoughts down, so I'm just starting to get back to it now. I kind of came to this realization that so much of what happens in all the books revolves around the nature of secrets and the nature of lies and the power of both to effect events almost regardless of intention.I really think all the characters have in some way told half truths, withheld knowledge in order to protect someone, told outright lies to manipulate others, resisted looking at truths about themselves etc. but also revealed things sometimes in a veiled manner or even the master manipulators, like LF or Varys have given up some vital truth almost unwittingly. So, I've been trying to do some rereading with more of an eye for looking between the lines and trying to really study the emotional responses and states of the characters. It's hard to fully get down my point but one of the things that stuck out to me is GRRM's masterful use of what I call the riddle or repetition of three. I think Lyanna had three men in a sense: she was betrothed to Robert, was most likely impregnated by Rhaegar, but I think it's possible she was in love with the mystery man who was the KotLT, a man who almost intuitively recognized the true nobility of what she did in defending HR and selflessly honored her by riding in the tournament as her champion and was aided by the gods in achieving a minor miracle in winning. A noble trial by combat in a way. I think, if you're interested in looking at it, a reread of Jon and Mance's first meeting in ASoS is a great illustration in the subtle use GRRM employs in how people reveal and conceal truth in an attempt to protect themselves or gain insight into the other person. It's from Jon's POV so we get more first hand knowledge of how he's attempting to give Mance enough but not too much, but Mance is also doing the same to Jon. Jon uses the truth of how he felt at the feast of Winterfell to convince Mance his lie about truly wanting to desert. I think Mance gives Jon a story about why he deserted and the truth is his motivation of wanting to live "where a kiss is not a crime" but I think the details of the story are veiled. I think the woman who mended his wounds is the same woman who mended HR's wounds in the Meera story to Bran. There are other hints too, in that chapter. There is a great physical description of Rattleshirt as a slight smallish man and we know Mel's glamours work best when they use a power of suggestion rather than an outright illusion. Then, of course, Jon mistakes the tall warrior looking Styr as the King, when in fact, the King is a man of middling height who plays a lute. GRRM is a tricksy bird! I've never been a proponent of Mance=Rhaegar but their are definitely some parallels and I think that may be why.

 

You know, Edgar, I expected something silly, but you surprise me.   That's not silly at all.   It will take some time to really think about this but my knee jerk reaction is probably not Mance, but maybe someone.  There is enough mystery to the KotLT to continue to discuss the identity.  

Why not Mance?  He's big and that's really it.  We don't have our little Crannogman mentioning the black brother doing anything but soliciting service from knights.  You suppose the woman who cared for HR's wounds and Mance's wounds are likely to be the same.   Why?  Lyanna was just a child.   Though I can see where under the supervision and protection of her brothers Lyanna would be permitted to attend a tourney.   Mance receives his wounds far north of The Wall.   I can't get her there.  

Why did you settle on Mance of all the people there?  Your explanation of your reasons for looking for this are outstanding.  As I say, not at all what I anticipated.  

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Also, Mance reveals to Jon in that chapter that one of his duties as a NW was to accompany the LC on a trip to Winterfell as a young man and on that trip he sees Jon and Robb playing as boys, so I don't think it's a great leap to think it's possible he made other trips too. Possibly as a group of wandering crows, especially one who might have the ability, like Dareon under Jon's command, to instill a passion for the calling of men to serve through the power of song.

This is why I'm open to the black brother being Mance.  As I say there is a synchronicity to all the future kings being in attendance.  Fascinating, really.  

[divica]

35 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

This is why I'm open to the black brother being Mance.  As I say there is a synchronicity to all the future kings being in attendance.  Fascinating, really.  

wouldn t he be too young to be on a mission like this at the time?

And is there anything mance can t do well?

He sings, he plays, he is a master swordsman, he climbs, he is a king, he is a scout... Seriousy, the man desserves a song. He is a legend!

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

Thanks Curled Finger. I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the books and trying to examine some of the ways I maybe miss things by clinging to assumptions I may have or in some sense, maybe what I want to be true, based on my emotional attachment to characters and my hopes for what they will do or be. I've found it very insightful. I believe in using text and quotes to back up my ideas but it's a lot of work and tonight I'm a little short on time, but I wanted to a least write down some of what I've been thinking about because it helps flesh it out some in my mind. I've also been trying to trust my intuition a bit more and relying on the spirit of questioning and being open to possibilities in the connections you can make sometimes, just by daydreaming and wondering. If something strikes me I go back and try to reread with those things in mind. It can be really helpful and I sensed this thread had that spirit. A lot of whys and what do you thinks and a lot less arguing, which I find way more useful in my quest in unraveling the ASoIaF colossus. I agree I like that synchronicity too about all the once and future Kings being there. I think GRRM is saying something there and I really believe he is a master at weaving parallels and themes and he wants us to follow as many of the ones that strike us as we can. I also think he is a master not only at subverting literary tropes but also has a fantastic handle on human nature and the ways we interact with each other and the ways we try to control people and situations and environments around us, sometimes for selfish reasons and sometimes for noble reasons, but ultimately how we have so little control over the big picture. Best laid plans of mice and men, so to speak. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Also, Mance reveals to Jon in that chapter that one of his duties as a NW was to accompany the LC on a trip to Winterfell as a young man and on that trip he sees Jon and Robb playing as boys, so I don't think it's a great leap to think it's possible he made other trips too. Possibly as a group of wandering crows, especially one who might have the ability, like Dareon under Jon's command, to instill a passion for the calling of men to serve through the power of song.

I have wondered about Mance as well.  We're told that he flew down from the Wall for a woman and I wondered which side of the Wall. 

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

10 minutes ago, divica said:

wouldn t he be too young to be on a mission like this at the time?

And is there anything mance can t do well?

He sings, he plays, he is a master swordsman, he climbs, he is a king, he is a scout... Seriousy, the man desserves a song. He is a legend!

Lol. Right? I must admit on my first read I sort of dismissed him too, largely because I think I thought his name was a little silly and took on the Westerosi assumption that the King Beyond the Wall is no real King at all. I think I was wrong on both accounts. I'm not sure if we have a set year for his birth, but I tend to think he's maybe a few years younger than Eddard. It would stand to reason, if that's the case, that he would have been around a mid to later teen maybe at the Tourney of Harrenhal and that as he is cuurently a middle aged man of middling height as KBtW, he may have been smallish as a youth, somewhat like Loras or even Jon.

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"The Shadow Tower will never again seem as fearsome," the king said with sadness in his voice. "Qhorin was my enemy. But also my brother, once. So . . . shall I thank you for killing him, Jon Snow? Or curse you?" He gave Jon a mocking smile.

The King-beyond-the-Wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey. There was no crown on his head, no gold rings on his arms, no jewels at his throat, not even a gleam of silver. He wore wool and leather, and his only garment of note was his ragged black wool cloak, its long tears patched with faded red silk.

"You ought to thank me for killing your enemy," Jon said finally, "and curse me for killing your friend."

 

A little text before bed.