Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Haha i got you Well i would still love to see a fully drawn up theory! I love trying to look at the story from new angles and see how these narratives are supposed to over lap and connect That's the hands down best reason for hanging out here with everyone in the forum, Brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 10 hours ago, Megorova said: 195 miles is even further than 50 leagues. And @Faera on page 11 gave us a quote from TWOIAF book: "Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved". So it's not 50 leagues, and not even 20, but less than 10 or approximately 10, and that's 30-35 miles from Harrenhal. Map in the end of this post. In radius of 30-35 miles from Harrenhal there is Rushing Falls on western side of lake, and ruins of Whitewalls on eastern side of lake. Whitewalls are not on any map, because the castle was destroyed by Targaryens after Second Rebellion of Blackfyres. Though where the castle was located we can get an overview from third novel from Dunk & Egg series, The Mystery Knight. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Whitewalls "The castle was the site of the wedding tourney at Whitewalls in 211 AC. While journeying from Stoney Sept to the kingsroad, Ser Duncan the Tall and Prince Aegon Targaryen took Ned's ferry across the Gods Eye to attend the festivities. The Second Blackfyre Rebellion failed at the tourney, and Lord Ambrose Butterwell forfeited Whitewalls to the Iron Throne. Lord Brynden Rivers, Hand of the King to Aerys I Targaryen, ordered the castle pulled apart and its earth salted.[1] " If they were traveling from Stoney Sept, then they arrived to western shore of God's Eye, there they were chased away from unnamed inn (which probably was the same inn where Hot Pie is currently staying), and next day crossed the lake on a ferry to Whitewalls. Aside from Rushing Falls, that unnamed inn, and ruines of Whitewalls, there's absolutely nothing else, not ten leagues from Harrenhal. Kingsroad also could be in that radius, though if Lyanna was going to Riverrun, she was supposed to go to River Road after Darry castle. If Rhaegar met her on Kingsroad near God's Eye, then she was traveling to King's Landing, or to God's Eye. The island in the middle of God's Eye is further from Harrenhal than 10 leagues. So that leaves either Rushing Falls or Whitewalls. https://storage.googleapis.com/junglecms-wp-bucket/1/2017/09/godseey.png P.S. Haven't you thought that "ten leagues from Harrenhal" may have been given not by GRRM, but rather by his co-authors of that book, and that GRRM himself didn't gave any specifications about where exactly Lyanna was kidnapped? Megorova, I'm getting a little distressed at your nitpicking my distances in miles:leagues. I'm trying to follow the suggestions of several posters of more than a single topic. It may surprise you to know that I am hosting another topic that was active this weekend. If I've miscalculated fine, everyone is entitled to an honest mistake and correction. 195 miles is about 65 leagues. I found the nearest location on the map that fit the criteria being discussed at the time. How about you make your suggestions without all the patronizing lessons? The statement "ten leagues from Harrenhal" comes from GRRM regardless who actually wrote the words. Mr. Martin has expressed his confidence in his co-authors of the World Book and that's all the endorsement I require. You are aware those co-authors have allowed all of us to discuss Martin's amazing work in this immense network of readers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 10 hours ago, Widow's Watch said: I tent to stop short at Yoren because of his description in the books and Jon's own reaction to seeing him, like his ideals about the Night's Watch get sucked right out of him before he even arrives at Castle Black. Sansa feels sorry for Jon when she sees Yoren because she thought all the men of the Night's Watch were like Benjen. Tyrion describes him as stooped and sinister. We don't know what Yoren looked like in 281 and 15 years later he may not have looked the same, people do change. Maybe he bathed and washed his clothes more frequently and didn't have the twisted shoulders. But I think for a tourney that has all these great lords, the crown prince there, it's not someone like Yoren or bloody Mance Rayder who may or may not have been born of a wildling mother you want. I think for a tourney of this magnitude, you want, but someone like Denys Mallister instead who is highborn, well-spoken, a knight, someone who in his youth entered the lists. He's from the riverlands and he might have known a lot of the people who were attending the tourney. I'd be really surprised if Yoren or Mance were anywhere near that tourney. Yoren is dead, so we won't be finding out anything from him. Yoren's description sort of discounted him in my mind, too. But I'm glad to have another suspect for our black brother here in Denys Mallister. Good call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 10 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Wow! I do life stuff for 48 hours and I missed almost 10 pages! You are on fire @Curled Finger. I have to find some reading time. Last weekend we neared 20 pages in the Brienne topic. There was a flow to it. It was an easy conversation to pick up at many points. This one, not so much. We are trying to determine where Lyanna was kidnapped, which is way off topic, but I love my new timeline. We've got some very interesting ideas about the conspiracies and now even a wrench in the works regarding identities of our attendees. There are some neat ideas here. I'm not on fire, it's the good folks willing to give up some time and energy that make the discussion so interesting. I remember when you were a more frequent poster, Ser. You are a great conversationalist. I'm actually sorry to hear you have a life! Pick it up wherever you like. We haven't decided anything at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 10 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said: It was Yoren. Widowmaker 811, welcome. That's it? It was Yoren? Unwashed and all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 10 hours ago, Faera said: Yeah... I considered that a lot. Especially since it’s through the POV of a maester. Still, it’s the best we’ve got until there is a So Spake Martin that better confirms whereabouts she was. This hits the nail on the head. Whether it was 10, 20 or 50 leagues, the bottom line is that the nearest landmark Lyanna was at was Harrenhal — so, what was she doing there? Harrenhal is east of Riverrun. If she was coming from Winterfell, she would have missed the turn off at the River Road. The only way it makes sense is if she was traveling from the south (from the Crownlands) or had purposely diverted her travel party for a good reason. I’m just curious. Perhaps it’s just because the locations and distances aren’t finalised or ironed out yet but it is fun to speculate where Lyanna was and where she went after Rhaegar, Arthur and Oswell fell upon her. I also wonder how big her party was and if any of them were killed or did Lyanna just... run to Rhaegar, jump up on his horse and hightail it out of there before anyone knew what the hell happened? People would insist she was abducted whether he killed her entourage in order to take her or she leapt into his arms crying, “Take me, Prince Rhaegar!” or anything in between. Do you think it is at all possible that Rhaegar rescued Lyanna? Now that you bring it up, what did happen to her traveling companions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 10 hours ago, divica said: I always had some doubts about jon's legitimacy but after hearing that argument they vanished. Sorry, divica, replied to wrong post. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 8 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said: Pet theory: Brandon was supposed to be escorting/watching Lyanna, but he took off for an assignation and left her with the Whents. Lyanna absconded and fell in with Rhaegar. I don't think we even know what he was doing at the time do we? Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 8 hours ago, LynnS said: @Curled FingerGetting back to the OP and what may have been going on at the Tournament below the surface; we have this assessment from Selmy: It does seem that Selmy is aware that there are plots, ploys etc int the works at Harrenhal. Varys falls into the category of perfumed seneschal and there is this interesting bit from him as well: Selmy has seen this ploy of luring someone to a secret meeting as a trap before. I'm reminded that Brandon took off for some reason after receiving a message from someone. Whatever he was supposed to do or meet didn't goes as planned and he ends up at KL calling out Rhaeger where he is the arrested for treason. LynnS, you dazzle again straight from the books. It's clear to me that Selmy at least believes there was some plot or secret or conspiracy at work at Harrenhal. From Selmy's POV I rather get the impression he blames Vary's for putting the bug in Aery's ear about Rhaegar overthrowing him. Am I nuts for taking this as probably good intel considering my source? Rhaegar didn't plan an over throw he planned...something else! Now that's interesting and on topic I add. Well done. And thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said: There's something I've been wondering about a while and one of the reasons I think all these people weren't so isolated from each other as we think they might have been. This is part of a larger conversation with Brienne where Jaime wonders why no one calls Robert an oathbreaker because he tore the realm apart. Jaime could have glimpsed Lyanna at Harrenhal for sure, but with the excitement of him being sworn in as a White Sword and being sent away right after, I wonder if he noticed anything that was going on around him and if he saw her under different circumstances. Agreed. And it seems to be mainly fodder for gossip if anything. I can't begin to imagine everything that the people said after Rhaegar crowned Lyanna. It's funny though how we are given the story of Prince Aemon entering the tourney as a mystery knight and win to crown Naerys and spare her from being further humiliated by Aegon IV, how similar both stories are. I do think there's a very relevant parallel going on here. I don't recall anything at all about any QoL&B having a circuit to run after winning a title she didn't win, but was awarded by a guy who won. Am I understanding you correctly that perhaps a part of Rhaegar's awarding Lyanna was to send some message to Robert? Jamie is a pretty skeptical person. I think his quote was just a summary of his opinion of what Robert did rather than any personal knowledge of Lyanna. However, I was very clear about excluding Jamie from the dancing partners in the OP. I wonder how things might have gone had 15 year old Jamie had not become Kings Guard and he met 14 year old Lyanna? Wouldn't that be fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: All work and no play... and now I have hundreds of posts to read until I'm all caught up. And a topic on one of my favourite men of mystery, the one and only Howland Reed! You are on fire, my friend! Ah, my favorite rap scallion! How are those Frey boys? I've missed you here. This has been a hard discussion to keep on point. Who knew so many people had such different ideas about this of all things? No worries about catching up. It's enough for me to know that you know you were missed to the point we had to shout out to you and your bad, bad colleague. I've been trying to catch up for hours now and I've only been gone a little while! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Allen Poemont Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Ernest Hemingway has a great line about literature that I will paraphrase. He compares stories to an ice burg and asserts that we only really see or read about 30% of the whole and that the other 70% is underwater. As readers we are called to bring our knowledge, experience and even intuition into the process of understanding as much of what lies underwater as we can. I think it's true in life too. Nobody knows everything but we have to draw conclusions or sometimes make assumptions based on incomplete facts or awareness. We notice what we notice and think about what strikes us and try to make sense of it in the here and now, but the real work comes in the studying and the reflection and the questioning when our assumptions or beliefs are shown to be more incomplete than we realized. I think GRRM has an exceptional understanding of that process, not only for us the readers but also in how his characters interact with the world of Westerosi. I bring this up because I was thinking today about how the Meera story told to Bran is like a POV within a POV. It's mostly, I think, a story that had enormous impact on Howland Reed to the point where he told it over and over again to his children in the hope that it's importance wouldn't be lost to time and memory. However, the details are to a great extent revealed through Howland's POV and the focus is on those details that most affected him personally or that he remembered most clearly. Interestingly too, Meera and Jojen have there own personal feelings and understanding of what Howland taught them and that reflects somewhat in how they relate the story to Bran and then his feelings and understanding affect how he is hearing it and Meera changes her delivery somewhat based on that exchange. I find that skill on GRRM's part and his awareness of human interaction masterful. I remember when I first read that chapter, I got excited that it was going to be a big reveal and when I finished it, I was probably more confused than when I started. It's dense and layered with symbols and I remember feeling the mystery just got bigger, not clearer! How like life really. I'm glad Alaskan Sandman brought up the discussion on brothers and the interactions that Howland notices and the ones that don't seem to register at all. I actually started thinking about the possibility of Mance as the KotLT from that direction. I've been looking a lot at what I think GRRM is doing with the concepts of what constitutes brotherhood and sisterhood, fatherhood and motherhood etc., not only in a direct familial sense but also in a larger communal sense. I believe he wants us to examine those relationships and the impact they have on the characters, especially in their abilities to recognize and inabilities to recognize their part in the whole tapestry. In keeping with the OP though, because it is related mostly from Howland's POV funneled through his children, it gives tons of symbolic ties to other characters but it also has gaps. It's one characters perspective and so the scene where he is accosted by the squires and defended by Lyanna almost seems to be happening in a vacuum, away from all other eyes, because Howland's awareness was focused on what was happening to him. We the readers know it's happening , if not in the middle, then certainly in the vicinity of a large group of people. There were witnesses and I think enough witnesses to spread a story of a pretty young woman with enough strength, skill with a tourney sword and courage to drive off three squires and rescue a man child from a humiliating and prejudiced beat down. I have some thoughts on how that story may have affected a number of other characters but will have to come back to that another time. I wanted to comment also on the mention of a NW man giving a speech at the dinner and again suggest because it's experienced through Howland's eyes it's not surprising he only mentions a single NW. Someone upthread mentioned Denys Mallister as a possibility for that man and I got a little chill. It makes sense. He's a knight from a distinguished family and would be a most appropriate member of the Watch to give a plea to the assembled nobles at the high table, where Howland was invited to sit by the noble Stark family. It doesn't mean he was the only NW member at the tourney though, just the one Howland remembers seeing at the high table. Why did it give me a little chill? Quote A Storm of Swords - Jon I "A cloak?" "The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch," said the King-beyond-the-Wall. "One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?" He chuckled. "It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me." He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. "But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears . . . and most of all, no red. The men of the Night's Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said. "I left the next morning . . . for a place where a kiss was not a crime, and a man could wear any cloak he chose." He closed the clasp and sat back down again. "And you, Jon Snow?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 45 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said: Ernest Hemingway has a great line about literature that I will paraphrase. He compares stories to an ice burg and asserts that we only really see or read about 30% of the whole and that the other 70% is underwater. As readers we are called to bring our knowledge, experience and even intuition into the process of understanding as much of what lies underwater as we can. I think it's true in life too. Nobody knows everything but we have to draw conclusions or sometimes make assumptions based on incomplete facts or awareness. We notice what we notice and think about what strikes us and try to make sense of it in the here and now, but the real work comes in the studying and the reflection and the questioning when our assumptions or beliefs are shown to be more incomplete than we realized. I think GRRM has an exceptional understanding of that process, not only for us the readers but also in how his characters interact with the world of Westerosi. I bring this up because I was thinking today about how the Meera story told to Bran is like a POV within a POV. It's mostly, I think, a story that had enormous impact on Howland Reed to the point where he told it over and over again to his children in the hope that it's importance wouldn't be lost to time and memory. However, the details are to a great extent revealed through Howland's POV and the focus is on those details that most affected him personally or that he remembered most clearly. Interestingly too, Meera and Jojen have there own personal feelings and understanding of what Howland taught them and that reflects somewhat in how they relate the story to Bran and then his feelings and understanding affect how he is hearing it and Meera changes her delivery somewhat based on that exchange. I find that skill on GRRM's part and his awareness of human interaction masterful. I remember when I first read that chapter, I got excited that it was going to be a big reveal and when I finished it, I was probably more confused than when I started. It's dense and layered with symbols and I remember feeling the mystery just got bigger, not clearer! How like life really. I'm glad Alaskan Sandman brought up the discussion on brothers and the interactions that Howland notices and the ones that don't seem to register at all. I actually started thinking about the possibility of Mance as the KotLT from that direction. I've been looking a lot at what I think GRRM is doing with the concepts of what constitutes brotherhood and sisterhood, fatherhood and motherhood etc., not only in a direct familial sense but also in a larger communal sense. I believe he wants us to examine those relationships and the impact they have on the characters, especially in their abilities to recognize and inabilities to recognize their part in the whole tapestry. In keeping with the OP though, because it is related mostly from Howland's POV funneled through his children, it gives tons of symbolic ties to other characters but it also has gaps. It's one characters perspective and so the scene where he is accosted by the squires and defended by Lyanna almost seems to be happening in a vacuum, away from all other eyes, because Howland's awareness was focused on what was happening to him. We the readers know it's happening , if not in the middle, then certainly in the vicinity of a large group of people. There were witnesses and I think enough witnesses to spread a story of a pretty young woman with enough strength, skill with a tourney sword and courage to drive off three squires and rescue a man child from a humiliating and prejudiced beat down. I have some thoughts on how that story may have affected a number of other characters but will have to come back to that another time. I wanted to comment also on the mention of a NW man giving a speech at the dinner and again suggest because it's experienced through Howland's eyes it's not surprising he only mentions a single NW. Someone upthread mentioned Denys Mallister as a possibility for that man and I got a little chill. It makes sense. He's a knight from a distinguished family and would be a most appropriate member of the Watch to give a plea to the assembled nobles at the high table, where Howland was invited to sit by the noble Stark family. It doesn't mean he was the only NW member at the tourney though, just the one Howland remembers seeing at the high table. Why did it give me a little chill? Oh heck yes--I was surprised by our friend @AlaskanSandman's really insightful analysis of the interplay or lack of interplay between Ned and Robert. I see you were inspired as well. A good conversation can be so revealing. Your quote was the passage that made me how much more to Mance Rayder there really was. He understands this red silk is the prized possession--the great effort made on his behalf. Who gets gifts like that now? Mance seems to prize that silk as much as the woman did and her grandmother before her. There is much more to this character than his silly last name. I'm enjoying this character's prism as see through your eyes, Edgar. I'm so glad you decided to join us here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 4 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said: However, the details are to a great extent revealed through Howland's POV and the focus is on those details that most affected him personally or that he remembered most clearly Just so. This isn't a continuous story of events or a complete picture. It's not clear to me how long Howland was at the Tourney but he only saw part of it. So the details about Robert don't tell us anything about his relationship to Ned or the Starks. All we hear is that in one particular moment he was chumming it up with Rhaegar's squire. This lack of information is misleading. The other character barely mentioned is Aerys. You would expect some observations about him, but again we're given very little. Martin is showing us only what is in the right hand and concealing what is in the left. We don't even find out that anything political may have been going on underneath until Selmy tells us later on. The tourney takes place during the false spring; it represents a false start to something, the road not taken: Quote A Feast for Crows - Jaime I "Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey." Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return." Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun. But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men. Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and here they were. And tonight his own road would take him to his niece's chambers and face-to-face with Cersei. What is it that Rhaegar laments? What was the road not taken and what does it have to do with the Tournament? Rhaegar's fate is essentially the same as Kevan Lannister. They both intend to make changes and both lose their lives over those intentions. I fail to see how Lyanna fits into Rhaegar's plan for a change in government at all. Yet we are told that everything went awry at the tournament. We're told of betrayals in Tyrion's POV: Quote A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI "For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ." "How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended. The pivoltal event seems to be Rhaegar's choice to give Lyanna the crown of roses. Barristan can only see this through the lens of his own feelings towards Ashera; while Kevan thinks this act affects the Lannisters, a mere contest of beauty. What we are told is who was in Tywin Lannister's way regarding his ambitions for the throne. If the Knight of the Laughing Tree had never shown up; would the outcome have been the same? Certainly there would have been others who witnessed Lyanna trouncing the squires and everyone present would know that the Stark girl has bested three men. What I find difficult to believe is that Howland wasn't able to defend himself against three unruly squires while Lyanna saved the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 7 hours ago, Curled Finger said: The little Crannogman meddling is a new one, too. Are you implying that Howland Reed is the one who put all the things that happened at Harrenhal in effect? Also new. I think so, and who would he be praying to? Inside those tree's listening to him? Bloodraven. bloodraven-nights-king-and-last-hero/ It's taken me some time to try to work through everything (Some of my older threads need minor corrections), to try to get to this point of seeing the picture a little more clearly ( I think? who knows). But this works off of every thread i have ever done, finally bridging most of my idea's into one explaining the main plot. Leaving out no loose ends hopefully. Though i do not explain the past legends in here at all really, as i didn't want it to be too long, or confuse people. Im just gonna fix a couple mistakes in my tree, delete the old post from my signature, and add in the updated ones. Not much has changed, but a little has when finally figuring out the ancient families. Needless to say i was trying to bridge too much and missed that they were two separate families started by Garth, East and West. Ill get to that all more in an updated Empire of the Dawn thread though. Most of it all did help me understand the current narrative more and better see the parallels, especially the ones that applied to the current story and how it may end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 7 hours ago, Curled Finger said: That's the hands down best reason for hanging out here with everyone in the forum, Brother! Everything i think happened at Harrenhal has not changed in all my time of theorizing either. The above theory on Bloodraven and his plan, ties into all of this. The Three Heads of the Dragon, Fire and Ice and Fertility. All of it. In it, the out come of Harrenhal and subsequent dishonor of Harrenhal due to Howland Reeds meddling changing Rheagar's original plan, and instead, getting him to crown Lyanna Stark, instead of Ashara Dayne. Which is why Bran is told the story, so he can learn the truth in the Trees. The only part i was wrong about was F/Aegon. I started to think he was the right Aegon based on the clues in the Three heads and the roles each plays. Untill i realized they were facing another triple sibling group, Cersei, Jamie, and Tryion. Tyrion who is fire and Ice like Aegon, and are switching sides in the war. So F/aegon is a proxy stand in for the real Aegon of Fire, but since he switches to the side of Ice anyways, its all ok. Now what i say in that thread is equally important to all of this, because dead Mel wiped out both Stannis and Renly effectively. Dead Jon, and Daenerys will kill F/aegon, then Daenerys will be kill by Jon. Jon who will get to die when Bloodraven finally does, when the Night's King does. So i still think Daenerys is the Dayne Heiress. As she must be one of the Three Heads of Rhaegar's dragon. Aegon (Proxy stand in that is actually F/aegon Blackfyre the crow and cousin to the raven) with be the (believed) brother of Daenerys at war with her and her other brother (Stannis, Renly, and Melisandre fighting for the throne). In which Daenerys is metaphorically Mel, Nissa Nissa, the sister who inherited the throne, and the Fertility side to Ice and Fire. The onlyyyy thing that ever changed in my theories was aligning the past figures as the was quite a trick to figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 21 hours ago, LynnS said: I'm not taking that bet. If Mance was the KotLT; it's his wish to give Lyanna the crown of roses; not Rhaegar's. But it does lead to a misunderstanding about Rhaegar's purpose in giving the roses as Mance's proxy and inspires a kidnapping plot later. Something that ends up being a sad tale for another time. Mance may well be another version of Barristan Selmy. Id take that bet, but your more right than you know haha at least i think so Quote A Storm of Swords - Jon I "A cloak?" "The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch," said the King-beyond-the-Wall. "One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?" He chuckled. "It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me." He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. "But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears . . . and most of all, no red. The men of the Night's Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said. "I left the next morning . . . for a place where a kiss was not a crime, and a man could wear any cloak he chose." He closed the clasp and sat back down again. "And you, Jon Snow?" So Jon and Dany share his blood, and the woman in the Village Queen's Crown healed him. Alysanne. They then had a daughter together. Which would explain Mance and the Blue Winter Rose crown. Mance may have been the Knight in the Laughing Tree who met Rheagar and gave him the crown to give to Lyanna upon winning. Mance may have even glamoured him self as Rhaegar. Quote A Feast for Crows - Jaime I "Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey." Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return." Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom. The Tourney of Harrenhal So this would mean you are right, that he was there and involved, but that it is not his kid. Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna thanks to Howland Reed and Mance Rayder. Mance Rayder who hooked up with a descendant of Alysanne possibly in Queen's Crown or that village north of the Wall with the creepy tree. Mance may also be a descendant. This would still mean that they broke Rhaegar's original plan and who he would have crowned otherwise. Which i still think is Ashara Dayne, mother of Daenerys the Dayne Heiress. One of three heads (children) of Rheagar's dragons. Well, F/aegon is actually a proxy for Rhaegar's child that is actually a Blackfyre who will side with Cersei and Jamie against Jon, Dany, and Tyrion (son of Joanna and Aerys). bael-queen-alyssane @Curled Finger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: Id take that bet, but your more right than you know haha at least i think so I don't want to take your money. Crowning someone doesn't just 'honor' the woman it gives prestige to the house she represents, that fights to win that honor for her. That's one of the things that is off about it. None of the Starks entered the jousting. So what a strange thing for Rhaegar to do. Unless crowning Lyanna serves some other political purpose or Rhaegar thinks that the KoTLT fought for House Stark. Even so, it's awkward for the Starks given Aerys outrage over the whole thing. How would Rhaegar not understand that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 23 minutes ago, LynnS said: I don't want to take your money. Crowning someone doesn't just 'honor' the woman it gives prestige to the house she represents, that fights to win that honor for her. That's one of the things that is off about it. None of the Starks entered the jousting. So what a strange thing for Rhaegar to do. Unless crowning Lyanna serves some other political purpose or Rhaegar thinks that the KoTLT fought for House Stark. Even so, it's awkward for the Starks given Aerys outrage over the whole thing. How would Rhaegar not understand that? Hhahaha good, cause i might have had to pay you working out a new thread, may take a min though. I think your actually right, and that Daenerys was the child born to Ashara and Rhaegar at the Tower of Joy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 41 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said: Hhahaha good, cause i might have had to pay you working out a new thread, may take a min though. I think your actually right, and that Daenerys was the child born to Ashara and Rhaegar at the Tower of Joy. R+A=D - yes.... Tower of Joy - No... Why would Ashera seclude herself at the ToJ when Starfall is available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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