Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

17 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

It's a good point - but even so, I don't reckon Oberyn was a regular on on the tourney circuit. All that show-off gallantry, and the ladies' favours, and the general knightly hypocrisy - it's just not his style.

He was also at the tourney at Storm’s End. 

[Curled Finger]

13 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Oberyn was a knight! 

  Hide contents

TWOW, Arianne I

The Bastard of Godsgrace was one of Dorne's finest swords as well, as might be expected from one who had been Prince Oberyn's squire and had received his knighthood from the Red Viper himself.

And probably a specially good one! 

Thanks for that reminder as I certainly forgot.   We lost Ser Prince too soon.  

[Lady Dacey]

24 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

How about because out little Cranngoman fell in love with the maid with dancing purple eyes himself?  Where are the symbolism people?   Surely this long description of her means something?   As you say he tells the story after many facts including Robert's Rebellion.   The things Meera tells Bran about were very important to the person who told her the story.  Including the Knight of Skulls and Kisses.  

This is Meera telling Bran a story - one she thinks he's heard before at some level. Howland and Ned were friends. Is it possible that she focuses on Ashara on Ned's account? Even if she's not Jon's mom (I don't think she is) it's not impossible she was important because of a love affair with a Stark, be it Brandon or Eddard. 

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Lady Dacey said:

This is Meera telling Bran a story - one she thinks he's heard before at some level. Howland and Ned were friends. Is it possible that she focuses on Ashara on Ned's account? Even if she's not Jon's mom (I don't think she is) it's not impossible she was important because of a love affair with a Stark, be it Brandon or Eddard. 

Of course you're right about who is telling the story.   Still, it sounds memorized, doesn't it?   I imagine this is near word for word what she was told many times.  Prior to beginning to consider what other roles Ashara could have been focused on for I thought the original story teller was in love with Ashara, much like Barristan was...that led me to believe this maid with dancing purple eyes was probably Meera and Jojen's mother for a very long time.   Jon never entered into my thinking until I came here.   Now I'm just thinking she's James Bond.  

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Oberyn may have enjoyed the tourney scene as more of a showplace for his exquisitely unique skill. 

Yes, I I could buy that. Also, Oberyn is a species of diplomat, I suppose, so he'd want to mix in high society.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

There is an old theory supposing Aerys may have taken liberties with far more ladies than Joanna Lannister.  Yikes, your Red Snake is creepy, but may be a clue.   Do we know at what point Aerys is supposed to have sworn off other women?  

In 275 AC, according to the wiki, according to the World book. Regardless, I'm not an Ashara's-baby theorist (really complicated!) - but I do believe dancing always carries that double meaning of a fight. So I'm expecting Ashara to find herself in conflict with each of those dancers in one way or another - including Ned for some reason. I'm really looking forward to hearing Ashara's story.

20 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Oberyn was a knight! 

  Reveal hidden contents

TWOW, Arianne I

The Bastard of Godsgrace was one of Dorne's finest swords as well, as might be expected from one who had been Prince Oberyn's squire and had received his knighthood from the Red Viper himself.

And probably a specially good one! 

Well, he's got the hypocrisy nailed then! Even so, my impression is that top-level jousting is a sport for jocks, and Oberyn is not a jock. If he was there, he would have some other aim in mind apart from the glory of knocking people off horses with a stick. But I can't think of a scheme for Oberyn that would fit in with Ashara's story.

[Curled Finger]

30 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yes, I I could buy that. Also, Oberyn is a species of diplomat, I suppose, so he'd want to mix in high society.

In 275 AC, according to the wiki, according to the World book. Regardless, I'm not an Ashara's-baby theorist (really complicated!) - but I do believe dancing always carries that double meaning of a fight. So I'm expecting Ashara to find herself in conflict with each of those dancers in one way or another - including Ned for some reason. I'm really looking forward to hearing Ashara's story.

Well, he's got the hypocrisy nailed then! Even so, my impression is that top-level jousting is a sport for jocks, and Oberyn is not a jock. If he was there, he would have some other aim in mind apart from the glory of knocking people off horses with a stick. But I can't think of a scheme for Oberyn that would fit in with Ashara's story.

There are a lot of moving pieces here.  Doran says he is like the grass who hides the snake, who we know was Oberyn.   It was Aerys idea for Rhaegar to marry Elia and all these wonderful Dornish characters come with her.   There is as much love between Elia and Oberyn as our similarly fated Ned and Lyanna.  The parallels are there if told from different vantages.   What really tipped me off to a potential conspiracy with Dorne was Rhaegar taking Lyanna to Dorne for safe keeping.   Dorne?  Really?  There is much more to this story than we know. 

[divica]

I think there are too many ways to interpret harrenhall.

For exemple, we know that aerys only went there because varys convinced him. On the other hand, if we believe varys now is working for the blackfyres then he was probably also working for the blackfyres then. So Aerys going to harrenhall must be bad for the targs!

If we add little tidbits like rickard Southern amibitions (which implies more than simply marrying his kids to Southern houses because that brings little else besides better relations) and the fact that nearly all the great houses were marrying people from other great houses (which is extremelly strange!!) we must consider that people were planing some kind of rebellion and that rhaegar maybe wanted to use harrenhall to stop it.

And then we have his squire drinking with robert (maybe trying to pull him to rhaegar's side), ashara (rhaegar's best friend sister) dancing with northmen, mace and robert together (I don t know what to make of this), brandon's over the top reactions against rhaegar and at the end we may have rhaegar trying to seduce lyanna by crowning her because he was trying to break his enemies aliance.

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think George is giving us these names for a reason. I'm not sure what that reason is though...

I think that there was conspiracy of Blackfyres unfolding at the same time as that Tournament.

Last what we know about Blackfyres is that they seemingly gave up after War of Ninepenny Kings. And now we have some sort of longplanned conspiracy of Varys and Illyrio, and Young Griff is obviously their project. Though Varys arrived to Westeros many years ago, some time prior Robert's Rebellion. So if Varys is spy or agent of Blackfyres (or maybe even a Blackfyre himself), then he infiltrated court of Targaryens, all those years ago, with a purpose to overthrow their regime.

So many out of those people, that GRRM has pointed out to readers, those attendants of Tournament at Harrenhal, were supporters of Blackfyres. So when Young Griff and Golden Company will arrive to Westeros, descendants of those people will join him.

2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

This is Meera telling Bran a story - one she thinks he's heard before at some level. Howland and Ned were friends. Is it possible that she focuses on Ashara on Ned's account? Even if she's not Jon's mom (I don't think she is) it's not impossible she was important because of a love affair with a Stark, be it Brandon or Eddard. 

Or because she is Meera's and Jojen's mother. And after events at Tower of Joy, where Ashara Dayne was also present, Howland Reed took her with him to the Neck, where later they married.

The thing is, at that Tournament Howland just met Ned Stark, so why would he be watching like a hawk, just some girl with whom Ned danced? Did Howland knew at that moment that Ned fell in love with Ashara? Was Howland so observant that he immediately realised, that the person whom he just met (Ned) fell in love with that girl? Or did Ned himself shared with Howland, person whom he just met, that he fell in love just now with this girl, and that was the reason why Howland was watching every move of that girl? Even if it was like that, prior Ned danced with her, Howland was watching her all evening, noticing all people with whom she danced.

The idea that Howland was describing to his children beauty of Ashara Dayne, because Ned Stark fell in love with her at that event, is ridiculous. Howland himself fell in love with her, and that's the reason why he was telling this story to his children. Because it's a story about how their parents met. Because their mother Jyana Reed is actually Ashara Dayne.

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

that led me to believe this maid with dancing purple eyes was probably Meera and Jojen's mother for a very long time.

She is their mother. I'm 90% sure of it.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Well, he's got the hypocrisy nailed then! Even so, my impression is that top-level jousting is a sport for jocks, and Oberyn is not a jock. If he was there, he would have some other aim in mind apart from the glory of knocking people off horses with a stick. But I can't think of a scheme for Oberyn that would fit in with Ashara's story.

My theory is that Elia and Oberyn were in the same sort of relationship as Cersei and Jaime, and that Rhaenys and Aegon were children of Oberyn and not Rhaegar. 

Ashara Dayne saw the two of them together, that night after celebrations ended. To prevent Ashara from revealing her affair to Rhaegar, Elia has spread rumors about Ashara. And that's how Ashara was dishonored at that Tournament. Then Elia used Ashara's damaged reputation, as a pretence of sending her away from court. But later Ashara still managed to tell Rhaegar truth about Elia's infidelity. She delivered that information thru her brother Arthur Dayne. So after Rhaegar found out that Elia cheated again, he left her, and together with Arthur went after Lyanna.

I think that when Rhaegar and Elia married, she was already pregnant. He and Jon Connington found out about it, on their wedding night, when according to traditions of 7K, Jon Con brought Elia to newlyweds bedroom and undressed her.

"A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him."

So Jon Con, same as Rhaegar, knew about Elia not being a maiden prior their marriage. And her pregnancy was the reason why after their wedding they left to Dragonstone. And also why Elia supposedly was bedridden for six months after birth of Rhaenys. That's because Rhaenys actually was born several months prior official date of her birth. So to conceal her real age, they spent those additional six months at Dragonstone. Because it's easier to trick people by showing them 9-12 months old baby and convince them that it's a 6 months old baby, than to show to people a 3-6 months old baby, and make them believe that it's a newborn.

So both children (Rhaenys and Aegon) were actually Oberyn's. GRRM gave several clues that point out to this possibility:

Oberyn had blue-eyed blonde daughter, Tyene Sand, which means that Targaryen looking Aegon could be his son;

Oberyn said to Tyrion "As children Elia and I were inseparable, much like your own brother and sister.", even though at that time everyone in 7K already knew about incest between Cersei and Jaime;

Oberyn was with Elia prior her wedding, and both possible dates when she became pregnant second time. If she gave birth to Aegon in 281, then she became pregnant after Tournament at Storm's End, in which Oberyn took part, and Elia was also there. On the way there, Elia was attacked by Kingswood Brotherhood. If she gave birth to Aegon in 282, then she became pregnant after encounter with Oberyn during Tournament at Harranhal <- Ashara saw them there, and when she told about it to Rhaegar, he left Elia.

Oberyn attended both tournaments, at Storm's End and at Harrenhal, to met there with Elia.

[divica]

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

There are a lot of moving pieces here.  Doran says he is like the grass who hides the snake, who we know was Oberyn.   It was Aerys idea for Rhaegar to marry Elia and all these wonderful Dornish characters come with her.   There is as much love between Elia and Oberyn as our similarly fated Ned and Lyanna.  The parallels are there if told from different vantages.   What really tipped me off to a potential conspiracy with Dorne was Rhaegar taking Lyanna to Dorne for safe keeping.   Dorne?  Really?  There is much more to this story than we know. 

To be in accordance with my previous post.

What if rhaegar did kdnap Lyanna in order to break the aliance between starks-tullys-baratheon-arryn(?) and hid Lyanna in the ToJ? however, along the way they fel in love and bla bla bla

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

I think there are too many ways to interpret harrenhall.

For exemple, we know that aerys only went there because varys convinced him. On the other hand, if we believe varys now is working for the blackfyres then he was probably also working for the blackfyres then. So Aerys going to harrenhall must be bad for the targs!

If we add little tidbits like rickard Southern amibitions (which implies more than simply marrying his kids to Southern houses because that brings little else besides better relations) and the fact that nearly all the great houses were marrying people from other great houses (which is extremelly strange!!) we must consider that people were planing some kind of rebellion and that rhaegar maybe wanted to use harrenhall to stop it.

And then we have his squire drinking with robert (maybe trying to pull him to rhaegar's side), ashara (rhaegar's best friend sister) dancing with northmen, mace and robert together (I don t know what to make of this), brandon's over the top reactions against rhaegar and at the end we may have rhaegar trying to seduce lyanna by crowning her because he was trying to break his enemies aliance.

Hola, divica, welcome to another discussion.  I'm not so focused on figuring out everything that happened at Harrenhal as trying to determine what the little Crannogman was telling his children and Bran by extension.   Having arrived fresh from his time on the Isle of Faces and learning mysteries we can't know yet I find his impressions to be important if enigmatic.  Only because you ask I will venture a few guesses as to your questions.   I don't begin to believe I've uncovered anything here.  

The manner in which Varys convinced Aerys to attend the tourney was clever.  Stir that cauldron of paranoia and suspicion with a liberal helping of madness.  Why would Varys do this with heirs and grand heirs?  Either Varys is an idiot or his reach is far more influencing than we are led to believe.   Deposing Aerys was great.   Certainly Rhaegar and Varys need the mad king out of the way.   But how could Varys know how to get rid of the entire line of Targs?  Was he perhaps also in league with Rhaegar?  Did he help interpret prophecy with Rhaegar, maybe even nudge him toward a she wolf to fulfill that prophecy?   

I really like @aryagonnakill#2's idea that the drinking game was a distraction, but it could have been initial contact only getting a feel for Robert's politics or even a simple opinion of the king.  Perhaps Mace was doing the same thing? 

Your conclusion that Rhaegar was working to break alliances rather than securing his own conspiracy is as good an idea as any other and deserves to be examined very closely.   

 

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

To be in accordance with my previous post.

What if rhaegar did kdnap Lyanna in order to break the aliance between starks-tullys-baratheon-arryn(?) and hid Lyanna in the ToJ? however, along the way they fel in love and bla bla bla

Why not, divica?  It makes sense if Rhaegar isn't working to establish support for his own power grab, but to destroy the other alliance.   It fits if this is the case.  We do need to look at this as an option.  

[Lady Dacey]

19 minutes ago, divica said:

If we add little tidbits like rickard Southern amibitions (which implies more than simply marrying his kids to Southern houses because that brings little else besides better relations) and the fact that nearly all the great houses were marrying people from other great houses (which is extremelly strange!!) we must consider that people were planing some kind of rebellion and that rhaegar maybe wanted to use harrenhall to stop it.

 

I like this! It makes sense to explore it

[Springwatch]

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

There are a lot of moving pieces here.  Doran says he is like the grass who hides the snake, who we know was Oberyn.   It was Aerys idea for Rhaegar to marry Elia and all these wonderful Dornish characters come with her.   There is as much love between Elia and Oberyn as our similarly fated Ned and Lyanna.  The parallels are there if told from different vantages.   What really tipped me off to a potential conspiracy with Dorne was Rhaegar taking Lyanna to Dorne for safe keeping.   Dorne?  Really?  There is much more to this story than we know. 

My first thought is that if Rhaegar publicly disrespected Elia, Oberyn would have given him hell for it - so any part of a conspiracy depending on Oberyn would fall apart. But Starfall is a long way from Sunspear - maybe Ashara's family feel independent enough to conspire on their own account.

[Roswell]

23 minutes ago, divica said:

I think there are too many ways to interpret harrenhall.

For exemple, we know that aerys only went there because varys convinced him. On the other hand, if we believe varys now is working for the blackfyres then he was probably also working for the blackfyres then. So Aerys going to harrenhall must be bad for the targs!

If we add little tidbits like rickard Southern amibitions (which implies more than simply marrying his kids to Southern houses because that brings little else besides better relations) and the fact that nearly all the great houses were marrying people from other great houses (which is extremelly strange!!) we must consider that people were planing some kind of rebellion and that rhaegar maybe wanted to use harrenhall to stop it.

And then we have his squire drinking with robert (maybe trying to pull him to rhaegar's side), ashara (rhaegar's best friend sister) dancing with northmen, mace and robert together (I don t know what to make of this), brandon's over the top reactions against rhaegar and at the end we may have rhaegar trying to seduce lyanna by crowning her because he was trying to break his enemies aliance.

You brought up some interesting ideas here.  I have always taken "southron ambitions" seriously because those engagements were irregular and can't be called subtle.  It would not be lost on anyone what the outcome of those engagements would create:  a shift in the balance of power.   Everyone knows the Targaryens can't allow Rickard Stark to back them into a corner like that.  That is an excellent observation, the Targaryens sent their loyal allies to buddy up with the Stark allies to drive a wedge between them.  I like it. 

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Why not, divica?  It makes sense if Rhaegar isn't working to establish support for his own power grab, but to destroy the other alliance.   It fits if this is the case.  We do need to look at this as an option.  

If we look at this

Quote

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell

It certainly seems like a group of people that rhaegar could persuade to kidnapp Lyanna because he believed he needed to do it to break a secret rebelion. And if the dornish KG was presente in this party it is even more believable.

And why would you think that varys is on rhaegar's side when varys ruined his harrenhall plan? I think you might suppose he was on aerys side at the time, but never rhaegar's. Which is even weirder if he is really worried about the smallfolk... But this event might be what changed him... It all depends if he is a blackfyre supporter or not.

And him manipulating rhaegar with profecy would be beautiful. But I think it is more likely that rhaegar visited the gosht of harrenhall and she gave him a new profecy that changed everything...

 

[Curled Finger]

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think that there was conspiracy of Blackfyres unfolding at the same time as that Tournament.

Last what we know about Blackfyres is that they seemingly gave up after War of Ninepenny Kings. And now we have some sort of longplanned conspiracy of Varys and Illyrio, and Young Griff is obviously their project. Though Varys arrived to Westeros many years ago, some time prior Robert's Rebellion. So if Varys is spy or agent of Blackfyres (or maybe even a Blackfyre himself), then he infiltrated court of Targaryens, all those years ago, with a purpose to overthrow their regime.

So many out of those people, that GRRM has pointed out to readers, those attendants of Tournament at Harrenhal, were supporters of Blackfyres. So when Young Griff and Golden Company will arrive to Westeros, descendants of those people will join him.

Megorova, welcome to the discussion.   It's nice to see you here.   Looks like page 4 is where our Blackfyre theories are coming to light.   Just a few thoughts regarding your post...The War of the Ninepenny Kings is where so many of the older generation made their friendships and likely sparked their alliance conspiracy.   I think the Blackfyres are a thing that would cause turmoil in an already mentally incapacitated Targaryan king.  Who was around during this time who could foster some of perhaps unreasonable madness?  Yes, some very clever one who had actively infiltrated the court, as you say.  It may be time to add potential Blackfyre affiliation/sympathy to the list of names our Widow's Watch compiled.   

[divica]

17 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I like this! It makes sense to explore it

Another thing.

If rickard ambition was to make Lyanna queen through robert (because of his targ ancestry) it makes sense that if everything fails rhaegar focuses in separating lyanna and robert because that would break the aliance. So maybe kidnapping Lyanna was a good idea...

[Curled Finger]

13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

My first thought is that if Rhaegar publicly disrespected Elia, Oberyn would have given him hell for it - so any part of a conspiracy depending on Oberyn would fall apart. But Starfall is a long way from Sunspear - maybe Ashara's family feel independent enough to conspire on their own account.

Not if Elia and Oberyn were complicit in Rhaegar's plan.  They may not see this "smoke and mirrors" of crowning Lyanna QoL&B as any more than fulfilling that part of the plan.   Barristan lost that final contest with Rhaegar--I think he fell from his horse or dropped his weapon.  It's been discussed in other places that Rhaegar wasn't that great a jouster. It's unlikely Selmy would throw a match so perhaps his or even Rhaegar's advancement was unforeseen.   Perhaps the plan was for Oberyn or Arthur or some other contestant to crown Lyanna?   Perhaps that crowning wasn't intended at all, but an effort to force the Storm Lord into appreciating what he had in his betrothed and Elia was aware of the statement her husband was attempting to make?   Our little Crannogman never mentions Lyanna and Robert together.  

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

Another thing.

If rickard ambition was to make Lyanna queen through robert (because of his targ ancestry) it makes sense that if everything fails rhaegar focuses in separating lyanna and robert because that would break the aliance. So maybe kidnapping Lyanna was a good idea...

It's a great line of thought, divica.  We need to get beyond our own morality to try to understand what was really going on here.   

[aryagonnakill#2]

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hola, divica, welcome to another discussion.  I'm not so focused on figuring out everything that happened at Harrenhal as trying to determine what the little Crannogman was telling his children and Bran by extension.   Having arrived fresh from his time on the Isle of Faces and learning mysteries we can't know yet I find his impressions to be important if enigmatic.  Only because you ask I will venture a few guesses as to your questions.   I don't begin to believe I've uncovered anything here.  

The manner in which Varys convinced Aerys to attend the tourney was clever.  Stir that cauldron of paranoia and suspicion with a liberal helping of madness.  Why would Varys do this with heirs and grand heirs?  Either Varys is an idiot or his reach is far more influencing than we are led to believe.   Deposing Aerys was great.   Certainly Rhaegar and Varys need the mad king out of the way.   But how could Varys know how to get rid of the entire line of Targs?  Was he perhaps also in league with Rhaegar?  Did he help interpret prophecy with Rhaegar, maybe even nudge him toward a she wolf to fulfill that prophecy?   

I really like @aryagonnakill#2's idea that the drinking game was a distraction, but it could have been initial contact only getting a feel for Robert's politics or even a simple opinion of the king.  Perhaps Mace was doing the same thing? 

Your conclusion that Rhaegar was working to break alliances rather than securing his own conspiracy is as good an idea as any other and deserves to be examined very closely.   

 

I have to take that back actually, lol.  TKOTLT had not yet made her appearance, so Rhaegar would not have been seeking out Lyanna at that time.

I believe that is simply a nod to who Robert was, and in combination with how Lyanna cried when Rhaegar played the harp it shows why she made her decision to leave with him.  I highly doubt he was being included in a conspiracy.  At the very least if he was being included it would've been when he was sober, not during a drinking contest.  I picture this

Lonmouth whispering "Say, what are your feelings on Aerys?"

Robert yelling "Aerys! Love the guy!"  "I've banged tons of wenches while Aerys has been king, I dare say Aerys has the best wenches!" lol, that last part was a political joke Americans will get.  But the point is you don't discuss treason in a drinking contest.

I believe the fact that Rickard, Tywin, Hoster, and Jon were not there says that they were the conspirators.  Had Jon Aryn, and Lyanna's family rebelled once Lyanna was Roberts wife, he likely would've sided with them, and his habits were I think widely known, Lyanna knew of his bastard-Mya.

@divica I always thought that Varys warning Aerys was because Aerys was the crazy guy, and Rhaegar up until running off with Lyanna was the sane one.  He would've assumed it would be easier to put the Blackfyres in power under Aerys than under Rhaegar.  I Dare say he was right.  Had Rhaegar become king I doubt Rickard would've been that mad he ran off with his daughter, and in any event Rhaegar probably wouldn't have burnt a man for the crime of answering a summons, then demanded the heads of two people who were practically Jon Aryns sons, from Jon Aryn. People like to say Jon started the rebellion when he called his banners, but come on who is going to kill their own children?

I believe Varys comments to Kevan in the epilogue of Dance spells this out for us.  He kills Kevan to elevate Cersei, because Cersei is the incompetent leader, and it will be easier for Aegon to take over under Cersei than under Kevan.  Same thing he did with Rhaegar and Aerys.

As to the red snake, I looked through the known house symbols and there is no such sigil.  It is strange that Howland refers to everyone else by their sigils, but then again Oberyn is referred to as the Red Viper, so that seems to be a dead match.

I really don't know what to think about Ashara.  If she was supposed to be the Reeds parents then they should be unusually tall for Crannogmen, or something should stick out as any sort of clue, and if your going to go out on a limb like that there has to be some sort of evidence for it.  My best guess is that Ashara told Ned where Lyanna was at the TOJ, so she had a part to play in the end of the revolution.  It is even possible the "they found him" refers to Howland and Ashara, though a simple servant is probably more likely.