Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

This fórum gives the blackfyres a realy bad reputation. Has anyone ever sugested that the balckfyres sent BR to the cotf and are responsible for the others apearing now?

divica, let's just start a separate thread for those things, OK? 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome Faera.  Thanks so much for the vote of confidence.   We are sort of still sussing possibilities out. If you love that little Crannogman and you're in with our carousel of conspiracy you will have to start calling him our little Crannogman.   No worries about catching up.   @Widow's Watch flashed out a list of names of the attendees addressed in the OP to keep us straight.   Our ideas are running the gamut from our little CM was in love with Ashara to 3 possible conspiracy theories to N or B + A =? so we are having fun.   We've got the suggestion that some of these pairings were distractions or information exchanges designed to 1) break the North/Riverlands/Stormlands/Vale alliance  2) depose Aerys and 3) Blackfyres!  There are some smaller but really interesting ideas here about Rickard and Hoster's real intentions and the real Stark Robert Baratheon loved.   We've got an interesting side discussion about Richard Lonmouth going to.   As our friend, @The Fattest Leech says, pull on your comfy pants and come on in.   Just occurred to me it's Saturday night and I've not seen hide nor hair of Leech or @kissdbyfire--I do hope they aren't  getting Bloodraven drunk again. 

Gods damn right I am. Not sure about that rap scallion @kissdbyfire, but ol’Mushroomeye and I have a fine fire wine flowing. 

I peeked at this thread earlier today. Congrats @Curled Finger, my curly friend, for having another fantastic thread.

Of course I have ideas about some of this (aka crackpot) but I will have to respond tomorrow. 

I cant keep up with the wit and wisdom here. I live it and hope I don’t embarrass myself later 

Last I heard, Kissd was with Wylla Manderly giving swirlies to some Frey boys who were acting like the collective consciousness of their Frey father-grandpa. 

[Springwatch]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How about because out little Cranngoman fell in love with the maid with dancing purple eyes himself?  Where are the symbolism people?   Surely this long description of her means something?   As you say he tells the story after many facts including Robert's Rebellion.   The things Meera tells Bran about were very important to the person who told her the story.  Including the Knight of Skulls and Kisses.  

Always nice to meet a fellow fan of symbolism! Here's one for you.

The Lonmouth arms - all those skulls and kisses - are out-of-the-ballpark bizarre, the most extreme we've seen so far; but the character bearing those arms is insignificant. So there's a huge mismatch between the 'big' symbolism and the 'small' story behind it.

A way through this is to take Lonmouth as Rhaegar's squire, his agent, his right-hand-man, his bannerman, his representative. Rhaegar's story is 'big enough', and sure enough, the time of skulls and kisses is approaching.

The drinking game is good here too. All our drunkards have huge capability for bloodshed, especially when they drink wine, especially red wine. Robert drinks 'Rhaegar' under the table.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Well give it up!   Let's have it all and let's talk about it.  

It's long and I've been trying to write it up by pulling quotes, but I keep getting distracted by shiny objects. I promise I'll PM you a link when it's done.

For what it's worth, I think Rhaegar might have visited both Winterfell and the Wall. If Rhaegar believed a threat was coming from north of the Wall, then I imagine he would have gone there to assess the situation himself. 

I can't wrap my mind around him not having taken interest in the north and the Wall if he thought the war for the dawn was nigh.

And I don't think Lyanna or her father were nailed to Winterfell.

[Faera]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome Faera.  Thanks so much for the vote of confidence.   We are sort of still sussing possibilities out. If you love that little Crannogman and you're in with our carousel of conspiracy you will have to start calling him our little Crannogman.   

"Our little crannogman" indeed! In all seriousness, the way Ned always thinks of him as "the little crannogman" and then Meera starts doing the same in this story, it really feels like a term of endearment he was known to.

Quote

No worries about catching up.   @Widow's Watch flashed out a list of names of the attendees addressed in the OP to keep us straight.   Our ideas are running the gamut from our little CM was in love with Ashara to 3 possible conspiracy theories to N or B + A =? so we are having fun...

Don't buzzkill HR + AD--it's sweet and there is definitely not enough sweet in this story, but you are right on all counts for all that's worth.

While I agree that HR+AD would be a sweet little twist, I think there would have been more hints to it. On the other hand, there really have been a few hints that of the two Stark brothers, Brandon is the sort of guy who would go after Ashara. We were discussing this a bit on the R+L=J thread that throughout the tourney there might have been a build up to B+A and his unhorsing might have endeared him to her.

Still, if AD did end up with our little CM, it is sweet to think that their daughter is now the object of affections for Ned's son, who is another Brandon.

Quote

we've got the suggestion that some of these pairings were distractions or information exchanges designed to 1) break the North/Riverlands/Stormlands/Vale alliance  2) depose Aerys and 3) Blackfyres!  There are some smaller but really interesting ideas here about Rickard and Hoster's real intentions and the real Stark Robert Baratheon loved.   We've got an interesting side discussion about Richard Lonmouth going to.   As our friend, @The Fattest Leech says, pull on your comfy pants and come on in.   Just occurred to me it's Saturday night and I've not seen hide nor hair of Leech or @kissdbyfire--I do hope they aren't  getting Bloodraven drunk again. 

Blackfyres, eh? Hm, would it have been on the cards even at that point? If (f)Aegon is a fake then he probably wouldn't have been born yet.

Varys is the reason Aerys thought to turn up in the first place, right? So, was he trying to delay any chance of a deposing of Aerys because he wanted chaos? Or was it a double bluff? Was he working with Rhaegar on the side?

Hmmmm the Stark Robert really loved? Is that the Robert loves Ned theory or something? It might be interesting if it is revealed that when they were young, Ned and Lyanna looked alike. We know Jon and Arya look alike and they are, at most, only half-siblings or cousins! Ned and Lyanna were a brother-sister combo of a cousin marriage.

I'll have to look into the Richard Lonmouth thing. I know if the theory that he was Lemoncloak but that's about it.

Quote

Though I'm taking some pride in envisioning this triple threat conspiracy I still haven't come up with anything other than to tell the tale of the KotLT and give a bit of background on the Starks--particularly their kindness in the face of the poor treatment our little CM received from the squires.   Couldn't agree more with your assessment of a certain CM sending his children in his stead.   But since you bring it up I would enjoy another option and dead is not acceptable.  

It is entirely possible a lot of things were going on and various plots and plans were in swing much like the Northern Conspiracy. It is nice to think that it is a grand conspiracy but, in reality, it is probably just various  people working towards a similar goal but not together.

Hmmmm when it comes to the Stark-Baratheon alliance, it might even be due to the bottleneck of the Targaryen family, which made Robert a genuinely possible heir to the throne. That said, the fact Rickard didn't call his banners the moment Brandon was captured suggests whatever his plan was, it was to avoid military action.

The other reason Howland probably sent Meera and Jojen is down to the latter's dream of the winged wolf in chains. Once hearing that dream, he sent them to Winterfell, on the face of it to pledge themselves but in reality to try and help the wolf. They didn't know who it would be, only that a wolf is probably a Stark. I doubt Howland sent his children realising what was going to happen. You don't sent your only kids, your heir and peacekeeper, your heiress and sickly son, etc etc into danger. Meera essentially confirmed that Howland does not have green dreams; he's more like her. He might not have had a clue what is going on with his kids, unless Big Bucket got a message to him. So many people think he must have some nefarious or grand plan but I wouldn't be surprised if the kids get home and the LCM is like, "What the Neck were you two thinking?! I said go help the winged wolf, not go beyond the Wall straight into the Others' back garden to hang out in a cave with the CotF and Brynden Rivers!" 

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It becomes not a den of conspiracies but a tragic love story.  

I doubt very much that it was a love nest of any kind.  The ToJ is described by Ned as a round tower, so rickety that Ned, Howland and a few horses were able to tear it down and build eight cairns out of it.  If anything, it is a watchtower of a type found in Ireland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_round_tower#/media/File:WalArdm.jpg

http://gotireland.com/2012/09/04/round-towers-the-medieval-mysterious-marvels-of-ireland/

http://philipcoppens.com/roundtowers.html

Arya even describes such a tower herself:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya V

It was Gendry who thought of the lord's towerhouse and the three that Yoren had sent to hold it. They had come under attack as well, but the round tower had only one entry, a second-story door reached by a ladder. Once that had been pulled inside, Ser Amory's men could not get at them. The Lannisters had piled brush around the tower's base and set it afire, but the stone would not burn, and Lorch did not have the patience to starve them out. Cutjack opened the door at Gendry's shout, and when Kurz said they'd be better pressing on north than going back, Arya had clung to the hope that she still might reach Winterfell.

The second story doorway reached by a ladder is typical for an Irish round tower.  It's location on the border of the Prince's pass suggests that it is a watchtower.  Ned finds Lyanna in a room and then he says "they found him" with her.  There is nobody else alive at the ToJ except for Ned and Howland.  There are no rooms with beds in the ToJ.  Lyanna was found somewhere else.

Getting back to Howland's interest in Ashera; she one of two ladies who were of interest at the tournament:   Ashara and Lyanna.  I don't think Howland's interest in Ashara was romantic, but rather we are shown that she is someone of consequence to the story or of interest to the old gods whom Howland represents.  The question is why.  So really, we have two brothers (Arthur and Ned) and two sisters (Ashera and Lyanna) of importance.  Both Lyanna and Ashara will be mothers and it's their offspring that play a part in the song of ice and fire. 

Arthur Dayne becomes the 'fallen star' and is buried where he falls.  The sword is 'broken' when the man dies and whatever was held in balance has been broken as well.  So we have Ned's dream of the blood streaked sky and a storm of rose petals blue as the eyes of death. Ned hears Lyanna screaming just as the swords of the White Walkers scream in the prologue of GoT.  Lyanna is also buried beneath a round tower at Winterfell, another broken tower and Ned's dream association with the ToJ is not so unusual. 

Howland makes sure that Ned survives because his progeny are important to the old gods.  The question is who is Ashara's offspring and where is Ashera now?  IMO, Dany is her daughter and Ashera has swapped identities as Septa Lemore.      

[Megorova]

11 hours ago, Faera said:

According to Meera, excluding Ned, they were "a white sword" (i.e. a Kingsguard), "a red snake" (most likely Oberyn Martell who was known as the "Red Viper"), and the lord of Griffins (Jon Connington). Looking at these names, there is really isn't all that much to suggest that Ashara was spying on anyone or trying to enlist people because they were all people very likely on Rhaegar's side already: Jon Connington was already a part of Rhaegar's circle since they were boys and Oberyn Martell is Rhaegar's brother-in-law! The Kingsguard who took the first dance was probably Arthur, her brother.

White Sword, that danced with Ashara first, most likely was Oswell Whent. For three reasons:

1. Aside from Ned Stark, other dance partners of Ashara were people close to Rhaegar.

Just look at the other people that danced with her: Jon Connington - Rhaegar's friend, Oberyn Martell - Rhaegar's brother-in-law, and this third who is a member of Kingsguard.

Three Kingsguards that guarded Lyanna at Tower of Joy were Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent. When Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, he was escorted by Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. Which means that Oswell Whent was close to Rhaegar.

Ashara danced with this White Sword, then with Rhaegar's brother-in-law, then with Rhaegar's best friend (Jon Con), and then was asked to dance with Ned Stark.

So isn't it logical to assume that first person with whom she danced, also was someone close to Rhaegar, same as next two of her dance partners?

2. Some Kingsguards had specific nicknames, so if the first person with whom Ashara danced, wasn't given one of those specific nicknames, then it was someone less prominent.

Gerold Hightower was called White Bull. Arthur Dayne - Sword of the Morning. Barristan Selmy - Barristan the Bold, and his family sigil is wheat. Jon Connington was referred to as the lord of griffins.The other three Kingsguards had no specific nicknames - Lewyn Martell, Jonothor Darry and Oswell Whent. Thought during that feast, some of Kingsguards were guarding King Aerys, so not all of them were present there, when Ashara was dancing with those four (sword, griffin, viper and wolf).

So the White Sword was one of those remaining three - Lewyn Martell, Jonothor Darry or Oswell Whent. Most likely Lord Commander Gerold Hightower was guarding King Aerys. Aerys trusted to Jonothor Darry - he was guarding Rhaella's chambers, and he was sent after Battle of the Bells, to rally remaining forces of Targaryens. And Lewyn Martell was Prince of Dorne, so probably he was also one of those, that were close to Aerys, and thus were staying with him, during that Tournament.

The only one left is Oswell Whent. So it was him, or maybe Barristan Selmy. Though if it was Barristan, then the story would have called him with some other, more specific nickname than just White Sword.

3. Harrenhal was family castle of House Whent.

That Tournament was organised by Walter Whent, older brother of Oswell, and Lord of Harrenhal. White Sword danced with Ashara first. So isn't it logical that brother of Tournament's master, was the person that went first on the dance floor, with the most beautiful lady amongst present there?

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

White Sword, that danced with Ashara first, most likely was Oswell Whent. For three reasons:

1. Aside from Ned Stark, other dance partners of Ashara were people close to Rhaegar.

Just look at the other people that danced with her: Jon Connington - Rhaegar's friend, Oberyn Martell - Rhaegar's brother-in-law, and this third who is a member of Kingsguard.

Three Kingsguards that guarded Lyanna at Tower of Joy were Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent. When Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, he was escorted by Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. Which means that Oswell Whent was close to Rhaegar.

Ashara danced with this White Sword, then with Rhaegar's brother-in-law, then with Rhaegar's best friend (Jon Con), and then was asked to dance with Ned Stark.

So isn't it logical to assume that first person with whom she danced, also was someone close to Rhaegar, same as next two of her dance partners?

The KG are all styled 'white swords' but the only one of them with a true white sword is Arthur:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I

"I make no such claim, ser. Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar's squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions. Young Lord Connington was dear to the prince as well, but his oldest friend was Arthur Dayne."

"The Sword of the Morning!" said Dany, delighted. "Viserys used to talk about his wondrous white blade. He said Ser Arthur was the only knight in the realm who was our brother's peer."

It seems more logical to me that Ashera would dance with her brother first and that Howland would call him the white sword.

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Gods damn right I am. Not sure about that rap scallion @kissdbyfire, but ol’Mushroomeye and I have a fine fire wine flowing. 

I peeked at this thread earlier today. Congrats @Curled Finger, my curly friend, for having another fantastic thread.

Of course I have ideas about some of this (aka crackpot) but I will have to respond tomorrow. 

I cant keep up with the wit and wisdom here. I live it and hope I don’t embarrass myself later 

Last I heard, Kissd was with Wylla Manderly giving swirlies to some Frey boys who were acting like the collective consciousness of their Frey father-grandpa. 

Glad to hear you were not in the black cells!  Come on back when you've had some blind fish and acorns.  

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Always nice to meet a fellow fan of symbolism! Here's one for you.

The Lonmouth arms - all those skulls and kisses - are out-of-the-ballpark bizarre, the most extreme we've seen so far; but the character bearing those arms is insignificant. So there's a huge mismatch between the 'big' symbolism and the 'small' story behind it.

A way through this is to take Lonmouth as Rhaegar's squire, his agent, his right-hand-man, his bannerman, his representative. Rhaegar's story is 'big enough', and sure enough, the time of skulls and kisses is approaching.

The drinking game is good here too. All our drunkards have huge capability for bloodshed, especially when they drink wine, especially red wine. Robert drinks 'Rhaegar' under the table.

It is a truly odd sigil.  Interesting connections.   I wish I had the ability to suss these types of things out.  Thanks, Springwatch!   

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's long and I've been trying to write it up by pulling quotes, but I keep getting distracted by shiny objects. I promise I'll PM you a link when it's done.

For what it's worth, I think Rhaegar might have visited both Winterfell and the Wall. If Rhaegar believed a threat was coming from north of the Wall, then I imagine he would have gone there to assess the situation himself. 

I can't wrap my mind around him not having taken interest in the north and the Wall if he thought the war for the dawn was nigh.

And I don't think Lyanna or her father were nailed to Winterfell.

Good points and very interesting ideas.   I will be looking for your letter.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

"Our little crannogman" indeed! In all seriousness, the way Ned always thinks of him as "the little crannogman" and then Meera starts doing the same in this story, it really feels like a term of endearment he was known to.

While I agree that HR+AD would be a sweet little twist, I think there would have been more hints to it. On the other hand, there really have been a few hints that of the two Stark brothers, Brandon is the sort of guy who would go after Ashara. We were discussing this a bit on the R+L=J thread that throughout the tourney there might have been a build up to B+A and his unhorsing might have endeared him to her.

Still, if AD did end up with our little CM, it is sweet to think that their daughter is now the object of affections for Ned's son, who is another Brandon.

Blackfyres, eh? Hm, would it have been on the cards even at that point? If (f)Aegon is a fake then he probably wouldn't have been born yet.

Varys is the reason Aerys thought to turn up in the first place, right? So, was he trying to delay any chance of a deposing of Aerys because he wanted chaos? Or was it a double bluff? Was he working with Rhaegar on the side?

Hmmmm the Stark Robert really loved? Is that the Robert loves Ned theory or something? It might be interesting if it is revealed that when they were young, Ned and Lyanna looked alike. We know Jon and Arya look alike and they are, at most, only half-siblings or cousins! Ned and Lyanna were a brother-sister combo of a cousin marriage.

I'll have to look into the Richard Lonmouth thing. I know if the theory that he was Lemoncloak but that's about it.

It is entirely possible a lot of things were going on and various plots and plans were in swing much like the Northern Conspiracy. It is nice to think that it is a grand conspiracy but, in reality, it is probably just various  people working towards a similar goal but not together.

Hmmmm when it comes to the Stark-Baratheon alliance, it might even be due to the bottleneck of the Targaryen family, which made Robert a genuinely possible heir to the throne. That said, the fact Rickard didn't call his banners the moment Brandon was captured suggests whatever his plan was, it was to avoid military action.

The other reason Howland probably sent Meera and Jojen is down to the latter's dream of the winged wolf in chains. Once hearing that dream, he sent them to Winterfell, on the face of it to pledge themselves but in reality to try and help the wolf. They didn't know who it would be, only that a wolf is probably a Stark. I doubt Howland sent his children realising what was going to happen. You don't sent your only kids, your heir and peacekeeper, your heiress and sickly son, etc etc into danger. Meera essentially confirmed that Howland does not have green dreams; he's more like her. He might not have had a clue what is going on with his kids, unless Big Bucket got a message to him. So many people think he must have some nefarious or grand plan but I wouldn't be surprised if the kids get home and the LCM is like, "What the Neck were you two thinking?! I said go help the winged wolf, not go beyond the Wall straight into the Others' back garden to hang out in a cave with the CotF and Brynden Rivers!" 

"Little Crannogman" seems very much like a term of endearment.   It's clear he's got a fan base here.   I like that very much and am pleased you like it, too.  

Ashara has been played up as someone's love interest.  I hope we get to the bottom of that, too.  I think it likely that she and Ned became friends and helped each other.  It's hard to imagine love being a stain on someone's honor.  I was forever stumped about why Ned would return Dawn when there was so much to do.  It makes sense now, though I doubt she threw herself from a tower or died.   

With Varys already in the mix causing his own brand of trouble it is entirely possible Blackfyres were the aim.   Didn't have to be Aegon, the plan could have changed over time.   For all we know Varys could have been working to create a power vacuum from day 1.  Or not.   It's just an interesting thought adding to the intrigue at Harrenhal. 

Oh Gads, Faera!  Not a romantic love.   Robert and Ned were like brothers.   Certainly Robert  cared more for Ned than his own brothers.   We hear him bluster about Lyanna, but he didn't know her.   I suspect that had a lot more to do with being a good brother or legal brother to Ned than any affection he could have had for Lyanna.  I looked ahead a bit before replying and see Widow's Watch is formulating some ideas which make me reexamine my faith that Robert didn't know Lyanna.   That is the danger of open conversation.   

For our purposes here all you really need to know is that Richard Lonmouth was both Rhaegar's squire and Robert's bannerman.  After RR he seems to have disappeared then we think we see him in the Riverlands.   If he is Lem we need some explanations. I put forth that he was loyal to Rhaegar because he doesn't approach Robert after the war and Robert was generous with his pardons. It's curious. 

Individual goals is possible and I could just be stuck on things that are not there.  Perhaps the symbolism gang is teaching me to look deeper?  Our friend @Seams is wont to say "could be" and opened a rabbit hole just for me! 

Rickard not calling the banners causes one to wonder why.  Avoidance of a military strike is a very good reason along with not wanting to be guilty of treason.  Let me throw in the possibility that their alliance wasn't yet ready and no single head of house (Stark, Arryn, Tully, Baratheon) was prepared to take on the perceived strength of the crown.   Instead of marriages this rebellion cemented their alliance.   Gotta love a wicked twist.  Lot of ways that could go but it is a fascinating subject.  

What in the Neck...classic!   Funny how OCM is perceived.   Most the folks I've read assume he's a greenseer himself, despite Jojen's protestations.   From my little hovel behind the Dreadfort all I see is a man with exceptional earth skills, possibly tied to the COTF or old gods, who genuinely loves the Starks.   Oh boy, did I just open a door to criticism or what?  Certainly by virtue of being a CM he's got er unusual skills and talents.  We walked with Jojen and Meera over 3 giant novels and understand Jojen has the green dreams.  What has Meera got but her faith and love and bravery?   I suspect OCM may be more like his daughter than son in gifts from the gods.

You've brought up so many interesting views here.   I hope you will stay with us and keep adding your own voice to our song! 

[aryagonnakill#2]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

But you gave it a solid shot.   I didn't know anyone thought Ashara was Lemore anymore, but that's always been my favorite. 

Do you think there is any chance Lyanna was the Stark Ashara may or may not have had a thing with? 

That's not something I had ever thought about, but actually it could make a lot of sense.  Ashara falls for Ned and wants to talk to Lyanna about him or something?  Then the two become friends, and that could explain why Lyanna was near Harrenhall to begin with.  If Lyanna stayed in the south to hang out with Ashara either at KL or Starfall it could explain a lot.  If we make a few assumptions like Ashara being the one to tell Ned where Lyanna was, and that he shouldn't bring his whole army or even a significant force, that she was the "they" with Howland.  It explains her importance to the story, and how Rhaegar even knew where to find her.  It could even have allowed Lyanna and Rhaegar to get to know each other better.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Rickard not calling the banners causes one to wonder why.  Avoidance of a military strike is a very good reason along with not wanting to be guilty of treason.  Let me throw in the possibility that their alliance wasn't yet ready and no single head of house (Stark, Arryn, Tully, Baratheon) was prepared to take on the perceived strength of the crown.   Instead of marriages this rebellion cemented their alliance.   Gotta love a wicked twist.  Lot of ways that could go but it is a fascinating subject.

Or Rickard knew what was going on with Lyanna and Rhaegar was trying to undo what Brandon had done. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I doubt very much that it was a love nest of any kind.  The ToJ is described by Ned as a round tower, so rickety that Ned, Howland and a few horses were able to tear it down and build eight cairns out of it.  If anything, it is a watchtower of a type found in Ireland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_round_tower#/media/File:WalArdm.jpg

Arya even describes such a tower herself:

The second story doorway reached by a ladder is typical for an Irish round tower.  It's location on the border of the Prince's pass suggests that it is a watchtower.  Ned finds Lyanna in a room and then he says "they found him" with her.  There is nobody else alive at the ToJ except for Ned and Howland.  There are no rooms with beds in the ToJ.  Lyanna was found somewhere else.

Getting back to Howland's interest in Ashera; she one of two ladies who were of interest at the tournament:   Ashara and Lyanna.  I don't think Howland's interest in Ashara was romantic, but rather we are shown that she is someone of consequence to the story or of interest to the old gods whom Howland represents.  The question is why.  So really, we have two brothers (Arthur and Ned) and two sisters (Ashera and Lyanna) of importance.  Both Lyanna and Ashara will be mothers and it's their offspring that play a part in the song of ice and fire. 

Arthur Dayne becomes the 'fallen star' and is buried where he falls.  The sword is 'broken' when the man dies and whatever was held in balance has been broken as well.  So we have Ned's dream of the blood streaked sky and a storm of rose petals blue as the eyes of death. Ned hears Lyanna screaming just as the swords of the White Walkers scream in the prologue of GoT.  Lyanna is also buried beneath a round tower at Winterfell, another broken tower and Ned's dream association with the ToJ is not so unusual. 

Howland makes sure that Ned survives because his progeny are important to the old gods.  The question is who is Ashara's offspring and where is Ashera now?  IMO, Dany is her daughter and Ashera has swapped identities as Septa Lemore.      

You know, Lady, I was reading your post and trying to open the link because you know I dig the pictures when you blew my mind AGAIN!  Whoa!  It's only 730 AM here!  No rooms or beds?  I might need some blind fish with acorns myself to get my head around this.  I do recall reading the description of the TOJ very much as you describe.   Wouldn't even a watch tower have a place to rest?   It is in a remote location, surely sentries were expected to sleep?  If not at the TOJ where could Lyanna have been?   Shiny. 

Another connection well made.  2 sets of siblings playing parts in the overall story.  Ha! get up earlier, I was with you all the way on your explanation.  Almost.  Are Ned and Arthur both swords?  The more times I read this the more sense it makes and wouldn't that be just the sort of wicked twist our author enjoys?  2 sets of siblings, 2 children and 2 broken towers.   

For all it's worth I think Allyria must have a mom somewhere.  With you on the Septa Lemore possibility, though!  

Is it to late to change the shiny assessment to sparkly?  WOW

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

White Sword, that danced with Ashara first, most likely was Oswell Whent. For three reasons:

1. Aside from Ned Stark, other dance partners of Ashara were people close to Rhaegar.

Just look at the other people that danced with her: Jon Connington - Rhaegar's friend, Oberyn Martell - Rhaegar's brother-in-law, and this third who is a member of Kingsguard.

Three Kingsguards that guarded Lyanna at Tower of Joy were Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent. When Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, he was escorted by Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. Which means that Oswell Whent was close to Rhaegar.

Ashara danced with this White Sword, then with Rhaegar's brother-in-law, then with Rhaegar's best friend (Jon Con), and then was asked to dance with Ned Stark.

So isn't it logical to assume that first person with whom she danced, also was someone close to Rhaegar, same as next two of her dance partners?

2. Some Kingsguards had specific nicknames, so if the first person with whom Ashara danced, wasn't given one of those specific nicknames, then it was someone less prominent.

Gerold Hightower was called White Bull. Arthur Dayne - Sword of the Morning. Barristan Selmy - Barristan the Bold, and his family sigil is wheat. Jon Connington was referred to as the lord of griffins.The other three Kingsguards had no specific nicknames - Lewyn Martell, Jonothor Darry and Oswell Whent. Thought during that feast, some of Kingsguards were guarding King Aerys, so not all of them were present there, when Ashara was dancing with those four (sword, griffin, viper and wolf).

So the White Sword was one of those remaining three - Lewyn Martell, Jonothor Darry or Oswell Whent. Most likely Lord Commander Gerold Hightower was guarding King Aerys. Aerys trusted to Jonothor Darry - he was guarding Rhaella's chambers, and he was sent after Battle of the Bells, to rally remaining forces of Targaryens. And Lewyn Martell was Prince of Dorne, so probably he was also one of those, that were close to Aerys, and thus were staying with him, during that Tournament.

The only one left is Oswell Whent. So it was him, or maybe Barristan Selmy. Though if it was Barristan, then the story would have called him with some other, more specific nickname than just White Sword.

3. Harrenhal was family castle of House Whent.

That Tournament was organised by Walter Whent, older brother of Oswell, and Lord of Harrenhal. White Sword danced with Ashara first. So isn't it logical that brother of Tournament's master, was the person that went first on the dance floor, with the most beautiful lady amongst present there?

Now we're on track.   Your assumptions about the dancing partners are precisely what I was thinking in the OP.  Without verification we really can't know who Ashara's White Sword was, but for all it's worth I was thinking Whent the likely suspect, too.   

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The KG are all styled 'white swords' but the only one of them with a true white sword is Arthur:

It seems more logical to me that Ashera would dance with her brother first and that Howland would call him the white sword.

Excellent point about the literal white sword.  

[Curled Finger]

13 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

That's not something I had ever thought about, but actually it could make a lot of sense.  Ashara falls for Ned and wants to talk to Lyanna about him or something?  Then the two become friends, and that could explain why Lyanna was near Harrenhall to begin with.  If Lyanna stayed in the south to hang out with Ashara either at KL or Starfall it could explain a lot.  If we make a few assumptions like Ashara being the one to tell Ned where Lyanna was, and that he shouldn't bring his whole army or even a significant force, that she was the "they" with Howland.  It explains her importance to the story, and how Rhaegar even knew where to find her.  It could even have allowed Lyanna and Rhaegar to get to know each other better.

It's not my idea that Lyanna was the Stark.  There was a topic about this years ago and I thought it was brilliant.   You are right there with the logic in it.   I'm not sure why Selmy would call a woman by her last name, but we do get used to the tricks GRRM plays on us, don't we?  With the information available to us I think a relationship between Ashara and Lyanna makes a great deal of sense, particularly at the TOJ or Starfall or wherever Ned actually found Lyanna.  

You haven't said who you think Ashara's baby is, if anyone.  Care to venture a guess? 

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Or Rickard knew what was going on with Lyanna and Rhaegar was trying to undo what Brandon had done. 

You're all just on fire this morning with all these new ideas!   Now we're talking possibility.  

[LynnS]

56 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know, Lady, I was reading your post and trying to open the link because you know I dig the pictures when you blew my mind AGAIN!  Whoa!  It's only 730 AM here!  No rooms or beds?  I might need some blind fish with acorns myself to get my head around this.  I do recall reading the description of the TOJ very much as you describe.   Wouldn't even a watch tower have a place to rest?   It is in a remote location, surely sentries were expected to sleep?  If not at the TOJ where could Lyanna have been?   Shiny. 

I don't think it does.  It's very old and rickety enough to pull down.  This is typical of many Irish round towers and they are all built with same basic design.  We even get an exact description of one such tower in Arya's POV.  This is not a tower built with a castle, religious building or fortification of any kind in association with it.  The fact that Ned buries the KG at the foot of the tower calls to mind that graveyards are also associated with such towers.  There is just enough space for someone to squeeze in.  The fact that it is easily torn down by two men suggests that it is run down to the point of being of no more use than a landmark.  Do we really think that Lyanna gave birth in such a place or that Rhaegar would have kept her there?  Did the place really smell of blood and roses? It's stretching credulity.