Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[divica]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"  ASOS Arya III  Ned Dayne to Arya.

So perhaps Allyria is one of the other Daynes?  Note that Ned doesn't call Allyria Lady.   So Ned is the brother of Arthur and Ashara and his parents are dead because he is the Lord of Starfall.  There is no description of Allyria. 

But why would ashara kill herself if she had a daughter? And take into account that the daynes like ned and that ned never thinks about other children he might have out there...

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, divica said:

I could have sworn both had purple eyes. You forgot to add that she once had a child. So maybe her child was borne still borne and she decided to become a septa? And joined the fAegon plot because she wants vengence against the starks that dishonered her and killed her borther and friend and their allies?

I could support this, but sincerelly I don t remembre lemore's character anymore...

So if she is dishonered I think rhaegar wanted to marry her to one of the starks and he said no. It would be a good move to disrupt the union of the other houses...

Oh, I should have clarified that Tyrion notes her stretch marks from child birth and thinks something about spoiled septas.  Something to that effect. 

Of course it could be just as you say--that forcing a marriage between Brandon and Ashara would have been a great way to throw the alliance into turmoil.   

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, divica said:

I could have sworn both had purple eyes. You forgot to add that she once had a child. So maybe her child was borne still borne and she decided to become a septa? And joined the fAegon plot because she wants vengence against the starks that dishonered her and killed her borther and friend and their allies?

I could support this, but sincerelly I don t remembre lemore's character anymore...

So if she is dishonered I think rhaegar wanted to marry her to one of the starks and he said no. It would be a good move to disrupt the union of the other houses...

She's a kind woman who has real concern for Tyrion. But she also famously says that Aegon isn't the only one who needs to maintain a disguise.  So presumably she could be recognized by her physical appearance.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

"I know how to use a sword," Young Griff was insisting.

"Even the bravest of your forebears kept his Kingsguard close about him in times of peril." Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. "What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore."

"I preferred her naked," said Tyrion.

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion V

Young Griff gave his father a stubborn look. "Lemore knows where her cabin is. I want to stay."

"We are sworn to protect you," Lemore said softly.

"I don't need to be protected. I can use a sword as well as Duck. I'm half a knight."

 

 

[Faera]

21 minutes ago, divica said:

You do know that septa lemore (and maybe quaithe) have purple/violet eyes? I think people think they are ashara because of that...

52 minutes ago, Faera said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure her eye colour is never mentioned, which is often the reason cited against the theory she is Ashara since it was her most defining feature.

25 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

One small thing here.  Ned Dayne is only 11 or 12.  I'm not sure if you mean that someone would have had an affair with Ashara well after the rebellion 17 years prior.  Allyria Dayne is said to be a sister to Ned, but her age fits much more closely with the rebellion.   She's 16 to 18, I believe.  She was betrothed to Beric Dondarion.   Conversations about this dishonoring of Ashara confuse me.  I have to take it from the stand point of Mr. Honor, Barristan Selmy.  Dishonor could be something far less shocking than an unwed pregnancy. 

3

That's not what I meant. Ned Dayne is the son of the older (and nameless) brother of Arthur and Ashara Dayne, of an age with Sansa and born well after the Rebellion. No, I know he doesn't have anything to do with Ashara's baby or anything. My point was that if there was a resentment or hatred towards Eddard Stark, they wouldn't have semi-named the heir to Starfall after him by calling him Edric - a name which is simply shortened to Ned all the time. 

Allyria is not Ned's sister but his aunt, the younger sister of Arthur and Ashara. We don't know how old she is but she's young enough to be betrothed to Beric Dondarrion for five years but not married, which means she was probably younger than 16 in AGoT. For this reason, some people have speculated that she might be the supposed "stillborn" daughter Ashara gave birth to, passed off as a younger sister in order to assure the girl still gets a good marriage. It wouldn't be the first time a ploy like that has been pulled in history. Thus, she might serve as a semi-parallel to Jon Snow in that families lie about the true parentage for the safety and sake of the child.

35 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I've seen the argument that Dorne is far more accepting of bastards which is true enough way south.   Starfall is much farther north and west making it possible that the region is more disposed to behave like the other kingdoms in this regard.  Allyria is called Dayne, not Sand.  I think it may be possible that Allyria really is Ashara's child but that she was raised by Ashara's parents to protect her identity or something.  Who knows?   Perhaps all children born of a Dayne at Starfall are called Dayne as a matter of course.   Whatever the case, Allyria is a convenient daughter of Dayne.    Just some food for thought. 

 

They are but they don't have any more real status than bastards elsewhere. I can still understand why the Daynes might have thought it better for Allyria to pass her off as a sister and raise her in ignorance of her real mother rather than allow her to be a known bastard with no hope of a marriage with someone like Beric Dondarrion. 

It's half the reason I don't think Jon is related to the Daynes. If he was a twin with Allyria or some such thing, there is no point of separating them. Raise him at Starfall with his sister. Ned taking Jon with him to Winterfell suggests that he was Jon's only family.

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, divica said:

But why would ashara kill herself if she had a daughter? And take into account that the daynes like ned and that ned never thinks about other children he might have out there...

Remember the daughter was supposed to have been stillborn.   To be honest much of the rumor surrounding Ashara was the inspiration for the conspiracy angle on the OP.  Personally I think Ashara was entrenched in whatever plan Rhaegar had.   I think that Arthur, Elia and Oberyn were involved, too.  I don't think Ashara jumped to her death.  I think she had to go underground just as Ned protected Jon's identity.  As our friend @Faera was musing there was a relationship between at least 1 Stark and Ashara.  Ashara seemed to be smack in the middle of whatever was going on--perhaps with Ned or Brandon or even Lyanna as well as with Elia, Rhaegar and Arthur, possibly Oberyn.   

I've got History of Westeros Dayne episode playing now, but the 1st is 90 minutes long.   I'm taking notes but it will be a while before I can say more about Allyria.   These guys are great if you've never had the chance to listen to them.   

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You haven't said who you think Ashara's baby is, if anyone.  Care to venture a guess? 

Meera Reed.

And Ned didn't went with the Dawn to Starfall. Because Ashara was already at Tower of Joy, when Ned and Howland came there. Ashara was there with her newborn daughter Meera Reed (that was conceived at Harrenhal, and whose father is Howland Reed), and wetnurse from Starfall - Wylla. The same Wylla, that Ned brought with him and newborn Jon to Winterfell. The same Wylla, that a few years later was called back by Reeds, and took their second son Ned, and brought him to Starfall, where he lived under name Edric Dayne. 

Pure speculations.

I think that if Ashara Dayne was pregnant after Harrenhal, then the baby's father was Howland Reed, and not someone else.

Though could be that there was no baby then. And Meera was concieved after TofJ, when Howland brought Ashara from Dorne to the Neck, after Lyanna's death, and introduced her to everyone as his wife Jyana.

But what is 100% definite, is that there was a wetnurse at TofJ, when Lyanna died, otherwise the baby (Jon) wouldn't have survived. Wylla came from Starfall, she served there for many years. So it's possible that it was Ashara who brought Wylla to TofJ. Ned brought Wylla to Winterfell, and then a few years later, she went back to Starfall and became wetnurse of Edric Dayne. For some reason it is not known who are Edric's parents. And also his people call him Ned. WHY? Supposedly Ned Stark killed Arthur Dayne, and caused Ashara Dayne to commit suicide, so why would Dayne's people give this nickname to their little lord? Unless little lord's father is Howland Reed, best friend of Ned Stark, and Ned Stark didn't killed Arthur Dayne, nor his sister Ashara.

Could be that rumors about Ashara, being dishonored at Harrenhal, started because during that night, someone saw her sneaking out of Ned's tent. But actually she was there to warn Lyanna or Howland Reed, about what Aerys and his people planned to do next morning. Howland was staying at Ned's tent. People saw Ashara there, in the middle of the night, sneaking out of Ned Stark's tent. And she couldn't tell them the truth, that she went there on order of Prince Rhaegar, to warn TKOTLT, that she (Lyanna) should withdraw from further participation.

So after Harrenhal Ashara wasn't pregnant. She became pregnant only after events at TofJ, nearly two years later. Or between Lyanna's kidnapping and her death at TofJ. Could be that Howland was searching Lyanna, and went to visit Starfall, where he and Ashara had an affair, and she became pregnant. So after events at TofJ, either Howland went to Starfall, and took from there pregnant Ashara, or she was together with Lyanna at TofJ. Either way, they went to the Neck, and sometime later, in 283, Jyana gave birth to Meera.

[divica]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Remember the daughter was supposed to have been stillborn.   To be honest much of the rumor surrounding Ashara was the inspiration for the conspiracy angle on the OP.  Personally I think Ashara was entrenched in whatever plan Rhaegar had.   I think that Arthur, Elia and Oberyn were involved, too.  I don't think Ashara jumped to her death.  I think she had to go underground just as Ned protected Jon's identity.  As our friend @Faera was musing there was a relationship between at least 1 Stark and Ashara.  Ashara seemed to be smack in the middle of whatever was going on--perhaps with Ned or Brandon or even Lyanna as well as with Elia, Rhaegar and Arthur, possibly Oberyn.   

I've got History of Westeros Dayne episode playing now, but the 1st is 90 minutes long.   I'm taking notes but it will be a while before I can say more about Allyria.   These guys are great if you've never had the chance to listen to them.   

I found them recently. They desserve more viewers. Although their vídeos are pretty long they do a thorough analyses of the topic they are speaking about. I think they are similar to PJ but without too much crackpot theories and as they have long vídeos they can have a more global view that PJ can t.

Another interesthing question. Do we have any idea if robert had any animosity towards ashara and arthur? What you are right and she had to hide from robert? If they were involved in rhaegar schemes it might be possible...

And if ned protected her somehow it even explains why the daynes like him.

[Curled Finger]

19 minutes ago, Faera said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure her eye colour is never mentioned, which is often the reason cited against the theory she is Ashara since it was her most defining feature.

That's not what I meant. Ned Dayne is the son of the older (and nameless) brother of Arthur and Ashara Dayne, of an age with Sansa and born well after the Rebellion. No, I know he doesn't have anything to do with Ashara's baby or anything. My point was that if there was a resentment or hatred towards Eddard Stark, they wouldn't have semi-named the heir to Starfall after him by calling him Edric - a name which is simply shortened to Ned all the time. 

Allyria is not Ned's sister but his aunt, the younger sister of Arthur and Ashara. We don't know how old she is but she's young enough to be betrothed to Beric Dondarrion for five years but not married, which means she was probably younger than 16 in AGoT. For this reason, some people have speculated that she might be the supposed "stillborn" daughter Ashara gave birth to, passed off as a younger sister in order to assure the girl still gets a good marriage. It wouldn't be the first time a ploy like that has been pulled in history. Thus, she might serve as a semi-parallel to Jon Snow in that families lie about the true parentage for the safety and sake of the child.

They are but they don't have any more real status than bastards elsewhere. I can still understand why the Daynes might have thought it better for Allyria to pass her off as a sister and raise her in ignorance of her real mother rather than allow her to be a known bastard with no hope of a marriage with someone like Beric Dondarrion. 

It's half the reason I don't think Jon is related to the Daynes. If he was a twin with Allyria or some such thing, there is no point of separating them. Raise him at Starfall with his sister. Ned taking Jon with him to Winterfell suggests that he was Jon's only family.

Yes, I saw I was in error and posted the quote.   A thousand apologies.  However, I do appreciate a good straightening out and your correcting my understanding of your original post.  That's why I like to ask rather than state!  You also bring up a good point about Edric's nick name and how it relates to the general Dayne feeling toward Ned Stark.   Good job explaining the possible reason for Allyria's supposed "hiding".   

For all it's worth, I don't really think there are any twins.  Kids born in close chronology to each other, but not twins.   I think Dany is Rhaella and Aerys' child.  Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child.  Faegon is likely Illyrio and Sera's child.  Meera and Jojen are Howland's children with Dyana.  Allyria is just the right age in the right place to be Ashara and ?'s child.  I'm not married to it by any stretch of the imagination. 

I've got History of Westeros playing, asearchoficeandfire, wiki and the interactive map open in an effort to curb my misstatements.  You were pretty fast in replying.   Do you also have an arsenal of information at your fingertips or have you committed it all to memory? 

[Curled Finger]

13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Meera Reed.

And Ned didn't went with the Dawn to Starfall. Because Ashara was already at Tower of Joy, when Ned and Howland came there. Ashara was there with her newborn daughter Meera Reed (that was conceived at Harrenhal, and whose father is Howland Reed), and wetnurse from Starfall - Wylla. The same Wylla, that Ned brought with him and newborn Jon to Winterfell. The same Wylla, that a few years later was called back by Reeds, and took their second son Ned, and brought him to Starfall, where he lived under name Edric Dayne. 

Pure speculations.

I think that if Ashara Dayne was pregnant after Harrenhal, then the baby's father was Howland Reed, and not someone else.

Though could be that there was no baby then. And Meera was concieved after TofJ, when Howland brought Ashara from Dorne to the Neck, after Lyanna's death, and introduced her to everyone as his wife Jyana.

But what is 100% definite, is that there was a wetnurse at TofJ, when Lyanna died, otherwise the baby (Jon) wouldn't have survived. Wylla came from Starfall, she served there for many years. So it's possible that it was Ashara who brought Wylla to TofJ. Ned brought Wylla to Winterfell, and then a few years later, she went back to Starfall and became wetnurse of Edric Dayne. For some reason it is not known who are Edric's parents. And also his people call him Ned. WHY? Supposedly Ned Stark killed Arthur Dayne, and caused Ashara Dayne to commit suicide, so why would Dayne's people give this nickname to their little lord? Unless little lord's father is Howland Reed, best friend of Ned Stark, and Ned Stark didn't killed Arthur Dayne, nor his sister Ashara.

Could be that rumors about Ashara, being dishonored at Harrenhal, started because during that night, someone saw her sneaking out of Ned's tent. But actually she was there to warn Lyanna or Howland Reed, about what Aerys and his people planned to do next morning. Howland was staying at Ned's tent. People saw Ashara there, in the middle of the night, sneaking out of Ned Stark's tent. And she couldn't tell them the truth, that she went there on order of Prince Rhaegar, to warn TKOTLT, that she (Lyanna) should withdraw from further participation.

So after Harrenhal Ashara wasn't pregnant. She became pregnant only after events at TofJ, nearly two years later. Or between Lyanna's kidnapping and her death at TofJ. Could be that Howland was searching Lyanna, and went to visit Starfall, where he and Ashara had an affair, and she became pregnant. So after events at TofJ, either Howland went to Starfall, and took from there pregnant Ashara, or she was together with Lyanna at TofJ. Either way, they went to the Neck, and sometime later, in 283, Jyana gave birth to Meera.

Did you happen to take a look @LynnS's pictures in the post upthread?  This Tower of Joy looks very unlikely as the place for Jon's birth.  I'm having a really hard time reconciling Jon's birth at Starfall, but I admit it's a new idea too.  

You've got a timeline!   What are you using? 

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, divica said:

I found them recently. They desserve more viewers. Although their vídeos are pretty long they do a thorough analyses of the topic they are speaking about. I think they are similar to PJ but without too much crackpot theories and as they have long vídeos they can have a more global view that PJ can t.

Another interesthing question. Do we have any idea if robert had any animosity towards ashara and arthur? What you are right and she had to hide from robert? If they were involved in rhaegar schemes it might be possible...

And if ned protected her somehow it even explains why the daynes like him.

Well queue Aziz & Ashaya up and listen to the Dayne episodes!   They are just getting to Harrenhal.  (They believe the dishonor was that Ashara was not crowned QoL&B)  

I don't have any recollection of Robert and Ashara (or Arthur) being anywhere but Harrenhal together.  HoW is making the connection that Ashara likely spent more time on Dragonstone than court.  However, despite my total loving the whole conspiracy thing I do secretly believe she was involved in the later pairing of Lyanna and Rhaegar.   I think she was the one hiding Lyanna.  She may have had to take cover after from Robert after Lyanna died or Rhaegar died.   Either way she would have been in a great deal of danger by association. 

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Interesting premise, but Jon Connington was not a Kings Guard.  One cannot have lands or titles as a Kings Guard.  Jon Connington was Lord of Griffin's Roost, another Baratheon bannerman, and a very close friend of Rhaegar's.  Jon Con served as Hand to Aerys for 10 minutes or so.   Just so we are all on the same page! 

Yes, I forgot. I though that he was also a member of KG, but he was only Rhaegar's squire.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

She's a kind woman who has real concern for Tyrion. But she also famously says that Aegon isn't the only one who needs to maintain a disguise.  So presumably she could be recognized by her physical appearance.

Could be that she's mother of fAegon, and prior taking name septa Lemore, her name was Jeyne Swann. And the boy's father is Barristan Selmy.

And Barristan's mother was a Blackfyre. She came to 7K together with Aenys Blackfyre to attend Great Council, but he left her at Selmy's castle. Their castle is located in Dornish Marches, and marchen lords were supporters of Blackfyres. Thus Aenys left her in safe place, with people to whom he trusted. She was either his sister, or his daughter. And after Aenys' death, she stayed with Selmy's family. Then she either died, while giving birth to Barristan, or she was taken back to Essos, when Bittersteel and his Golden Company came to Westeros, with their Fourth Rebellion.

In his childhood Barristan served as squire to Manfred Swann. Then in 281 he saved lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from Kingswood Brotherhood. So could be that after he saved her, they had sex. Thus their child would be about the same age as Aegon, son of Elia Martell. Thus Young Griff is not Aegon, he is a fake.

When Barristan Selmy and septa Lemore will met, he may recognise her as lady Swann.

[divica]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Could be that she's mother of fAegon, and prior taking name septa Lemore, her name was Jeyne Swann. And the boy's father is Barristan Selmy.

And illyrion is so fond of fAegon why? and the GC betrayed their contract to support Aegon why?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Remember the daughter was supposed to have been stillborn.   To be honest much of the rumor surrounding Ashara was the inspiration for the conspiracy angle on the OP.  Personally I think Ashara was entrenched in whatever plan Rhaegar had.   I think that Arthur, Elia and Oberyn were involved, too.  I don't think Ashara jumped to her death.  I think she had to go underground just as Ned protected Jon's identity.  As our friend @Faera was musing there was a relationship between at least 1 Stark and Ashara.  Ashara seemed to be smack in the middle of whatever was going on--perhaps with Ned or Brandon or even Lyanna as well as with Elia, Rhaegar and Arthur, possibly Oberyn.   

I've got History of Westeros Dayne episode playing now, but the 1st is 90 minutes long.   I'm taking notes but it will be a while before I can say more about Allyria.   These guys are great if you've never had the chance to listen to them. 

There is no doubt in my mind that Ned and Ashara fell in love or to doubt what Ned Dayne's aunt tells him about it.  It would certainly account for Ned bitter feelings having to kill the brother he so admires and honor Brandon's marriage contract to the Tully's instead.  

We are told that Ashera jumped from the Sword Tower and that her body was never found.  So presumed dead.  If you want to go into hiding in this story; the world must think you dead so nobody comes looking.  That's exactly what we are told about Bran.

We also given these odd accusations from Cersei that Ned stole a child from Ashera and another accounting of Ned sending a woman away by ship.  Presumed to be his lover because of the exchange of coin.  Given that he tells Cersei that she must cross the sea and go into hiding; I'm guessing this isn't a new one on him.  I'd add Ned's insistance that a word is spoken about Ashera at Winterfell ever and these things add up.

I think it highly unlikely that Ned is the father of Ashera's child.  I don't think it's out of the question that Rhaegar is the father of her daughter. Ashera is after all Elia's lady in waiting and likely went back with them to Dragonstone after the tournament.   

In Dany's vision of Rhaegar in the HoU; someone else is in the room with them.  Rhaegar addresses himself to that person.  Dany thinks Rhaegar is addressing her but it makes more sense that one of Elia's ladies attended her during the birth of Aegon. That is likely to be Ashera who looks like Dany according to Selmy.   Dany is hidden and then later stolen by Varys once the old bear dies.  Rhaegar thinks that Aegon is the PwiP; but Dany is the one who wakes dragons from stone. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Dany is Rhaegar's third dragon.   If he knows anything about the prophecy; he knows that Dany, his third child, will wake dragons from stone and that Elia will have no more children after giving him two.   I doubt very much that he needs Lyanna for anything.

The dragon with three heads might also refer to Bloodraven.  His three heads or eggs: Bran, Arya and Jon.  So perhaps there must be one more dragon with three heads and Dany is the key.  I've said before that I think Dany resurrects Rhaegar in the black egg.  This is the vision of the dragon who sings to her and why she dreams of herself wearing Rhaegar's black armor; she is able to join with the dragon in the same way that the Starks join with the direwolves.  The three heads are Dany, Rhaegar and Drogon - mind, body and soul.

But sorry, this is once again going off track. 

[Curled Finger]

42 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Yes, I forgot. I though that he was also a member of KG, but he was only Rhaegar's squire.

We have a lot of moving pieces here and this guy has a lot of titles. Richard Lonmouth is Rhaegar's squire.   Jon Con was just a friend.  He's mentioned so often it's easy to mix him in with Rhaegar's "men".  

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There is no doubt in my mind that Ned and Ashara fell in love or to doubt what Ned Dayne's aunt tells him about it.  It would certainly account for Ned bitter feelings having to kill the brother he so admires and honor Brandon's marriage contract to the Tully's instead.  

We are told that Ashera jumped from the Sword Tower and that her body was never found.  So presumed dead.  If you want to go into hiding in this story; the world must think you dead so nobody comes looking.  That's exactly what we are told about Bran.

We also given these odd accusations from Cersei that Ned stole a child from Ashera and another accounting of Ned sending a woman away by ship.  Presumed to be his lover because of the exchange of coin.  Given that he tells Cersei that she must cross the sea and go into hiding; I'm guessing this isn't a new one on him.  I'd add Ned's insistance that a word is spoken about Ashera at Winterfell ever and these things add up.

I think it highly unlikely that Ned is the father of Ashera's child.  I don't think it's out of the question that Rhaegar is the father of her daughter. Ashera is after all Elia's lady in waiting and likely went back with them to Dragonstone after the tournament.   

I wonder if Ashara and Elia look similarly enough to enlist Ashara as a surrogate mother?  That's new!  I'm enjoying your point of view here.  Only thing I want to ask is regarding Ned's banish on the mention of Ashara at Winterfell.  It's possible he knew the rumors upset his Lady wife.  I suppose there is also the possibility that Ned took Ashara's (maybe innocent?) honor very seriously and the rumors were lies?   What do you think the reason for the banish on the mention of Ashara's name is? 

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Could be that she's mother of fAegon, and prior taking name septa Lemore, her name was Jeyne Swann. And the boy's father is Barristan Selmy.

I'm inclined to think that Aegon really is Rhaegar's son.  I can't fathom that Rhaegar wouldn't have taken steps to get his all important PwiP to safety and in the keeping of people he trusts.  We have Cersei suggesting the same thing about Tommen - dying his hair, telling people that he is the son of a hedge knight, hiding him somewhere. 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

The queen intends to send Prince Tommen away." They knelt alone in the hushed dimness of the sept, surrounded by shadows and flickering candles, but even so Lancel kept his voice low. "Lord Gyles will take him to Rosby, and conceal him there in the guise of a page. They plan to darken his hair and tell everyone that he is the son of a hedge knight."

 

Aegon says he dies his hair blue to honor his mother; but Tyrion recognizes that the blue dye make his eyes seem more blue than purple. They are indigo blue, a blue so dark they look purple in a certain light.  Rhaegar also has indigo eyes.  I expect that Dany may know the difference if she ever sets eyes on Aegon since she has seen Rhaegar in her vision in the HoU.  We'll probably find out from her or Selmy if he survives long enough. I don't think Tyrion is discounting it and he makes the point that the infant that was murdered was very disfigured.  We are only told this is Aegon.  As Coldhands says "Let the world think the boy is dead, so no one comes looking."   I don't think this is the only time GRRM has used this ploy. 

[Megorova]

59 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You've got a timeline!   What are you using? 

Ned died in 299. Meera and Jojen came to Winterfell, after Ned's death, during Harvest feast, that is usually celebrated in autumn. At that point Meera was 15, but before the year ended she turned 16. So her birthday is in late autumn. And if she turned 16 in 299, then she was born in 283.

ACOK, Bran IV:

Quote

All of the other lords and knights had departed within a day or two of the harvest feast, but the Reeds had stayed to become Bran’s constant companions. Jojen was so solemn that Old Nan called him “little grandfather,” but Meera reminded Bran of his sister Arya. She wasn’t scared to get dirty, and she could run and fight and throw as good as a boy. She was older than Arya, though; almost sixteen, a woman grown. They were both older than Bran, even though his ninth name day had finally come and gone, but they never treated him like a child.

ASOS, Bran I:

Quote

Meera Reed was sixteen, a woman grown, but she stood no higher than her brother. All the crannogmen were small, she told Bran once when he asked why she wasn’t taller. Brown-haired, green-eyed, and flat as a boy, she walked with a supple grace that Bran could only watch and envy.

 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

Ned died in 299. Meera and Jojen came to Winterfell, after Ned's death, during Harvest feast, that is usually celebrated in autumn. At that point Meera was 15, but before the year ended she turned 16. So her birthday is in late autumn. And if she turned 16 in 299, then she was born in 283.

ACOK, Bran IV:

ASOS, Bran I:

 

Ah NUTS.   I was hoping to collect another timeline.  

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I wonder if Ashara and Elia look similarly enough to enlist Ashara as a surrogate mother?  That's new!  I'm enjoying your point of view here.  Only thing I want to ask is regarding Ned's banish on the mention of Ashara at Winterfell.  It's possible he knew the rumors upset his Lady wife.  I suppose there is also the possibility that Ned took Ashara's (maybe innocent?) honor very seriously and the rumors were lies?   What do you think the reason for the banish on the mention of Ashara's name is? 

Besides not stirring up Catelyn and being reminded of Ashara himself; he might know something about Aegon and Ashara's role in hiding him or secreting him out of KL.  Their safety depends on his silence.  When Ned talks of all the promises he made; I don't think he's just talking about Lyanna.  Ned is against the murder of children.