Jump to content
Lady Anna

Unpopular Opinions?

Recommended Posts

13 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I would agree with most of this, I just think it could be said of most of the villains in the series. They are misunderstood and they make mistakes. Which is frankly good writing. 

I am not sure that it can be said for everyone. There are characters who make mistakes, or who are in shades of grey, like Tyrion and Dany, to mention few. But, Catelyn was making mistakes, many villains' acts in ASOIAF are not mistakes. Walder Frey and Roose Bolton didn't make a mistake, they knew what they were doing. Cersei is also aware of what she is doing. Ramsay, Balon, Tywin, Littlefinger... They have all known what they were doing. It didn't happen as some sort of mistake.

15 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But we’ve spent a lot of time in her head, and there is no denying the tradgedies which befall her and her family, these things make her sympathetic. 

I don't think that is the only thing that makes her sympathetic. I believe Catelyn is a good woman who was dragged into the war she never asked for. Her kid was attacked in her own home, something had to be done. I understand Catelyn because she is a mother who is trying to protect the family. And by doing so, she is not committing heinous acts. She does make mistakes, that is for sure, but simply she lacks malice.

18 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But the line between victim and villain can be blurry at best, and oftentimes a character is both. I’d argue her evil actions, no matter how well intended, have a significant impact on the plot of the story.

Yes, a character can be both a villain and a victim, but I fail to understand how it pertains to Catelyn. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Catelyn is really the most underrated villain of the series.

Also, it’s almost impressive how she’s so reliably wrong about almost everything, while simultaneously blaming everyone but herself.

She treats Jon, an innocent, terribly for no fault of his own.

She gives into despair after Bran’s fall, leaving all her responsibilities unfulfilled and abandons Winterfell after the assasination attempt.

She dooms Ned by convincing him to trust Littlefinger.

She starts the War of Five Kings by kidnapping Tyrion.

She commits treason releasing Jaime, doing great harm to her son’s cause.

She kills an innocent fool, in an act of misguided vengeance. The sad little bells.

I think her reappearance under the name Stoneheart will see her embracing the role of a villain. Of course, her angry lynching spree, like so many of her choices, is misguided both in that her kids aren’t all dead and the targets she’s murdering appear arbitrary.

But it says wonderful things about the writing that people can have such differing opinions on a single character!

That's........an opinion. I of course disagree. And frankly all the things you mention hardly make her a villain. I honestly wonder if I'm just missing your sarcasm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At this point I think Dany and Essos should have been pretty much completely cut from the story. Just mention her in passing from time to time and leave her story and actions fairly mysterious. Then after the main story is finished GRRM should have written a second companion series about Dany and her quest in Essos that lead her to save the world on the other side of the world or whatever. It's just taken so long for her to connect to the main story and setting, the parts I care about, that at this point I'm sick of waiting for her to arrive already. I feel like all her chapters, while interesting and compelling, have not been useful to the actual plot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What happened to Theon is something that no man deserve, but i think that what happened to Biter when he was child  is worse

Getting your tongue cut, teeth filled, being raised as an animal and having your future completely ruined is something that no child deserves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dany is the worst thing that can happen to Westeros right now and the Targaryan dynasty as a whole is overhyped and overglorified. 

Aegon is legit. No basis, just gut feeling. 

Euron won't summon a kraken or warg anyone or any of that crazy stuff.  Victarion is a way more interesting character. 

Sansa will be in charge in more than one kingdom by the end. 

I couldn't care less about Tysha or whether or not Tyrion gets any closure there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Cat is the worst Wench in the series 

2) Sansa is the dumbest Wench in the game 

3) varys is packing a 18 incher and is saving it 

4) of George’s “5 children” only 2 will make it to the end (Jon and Sansa. If Tyrion somehow makes it he loses his tongue in the process)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Sansa

Sansa isn't one of "the children".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Podrick Payne is Tysha's daughter.

The Bloodstone Emperor is R'hlorr

The Amethyst Empress is Night's Queen

Dragons and dragon-bonding are Lightbringer, the sword is a red, flaming herring.

Shade of the Evening is Oily-Black-Stone-corrupted weirwood

The Deep Ones are real.

The reptile-people of Sothoryos are real.

Some of the races on Planetos are alien.

Magic is an alien force that has infected Planetos like a disease.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I’m a Stark fan but I don’t think we’re getting that Stark fist pump moment, I’m not sure they’re the good guys any more or less than anyone else, I’m not sure all of the Stark kids will get their reunion, and it’s not a given for me that they’ll all end up on the same side of things. All of the Stark kids show traits which really worry me.

Sansa won’t become LF jr or a master player at 14 years old. She’ll be just good enough, which isn’t really saying much for a Stark. Her special skill will be recognizing tricks and plays which is where the Starks have faltered in the past.

I used to think the Lannisters’ role was just political, but in rereads, I’m starting to think they’re a magical (cursed) dark horse. This might not be about Fire/Targs and Ice/Starks the way I’ve thought it would be.

The prophesies aren’t true.

Mirri Maz Duur’s telling Dany she can’t have kids is about Dany now being too magical and she won’t have kids again until her ties to magic are weakened or gone or magic itself is ended. Only death (or infertility) can pay for life.  Mirri was middle-aged, had no children to speak of, and said she paid dearly for her abilities over life and death. I think that payment was giving up children.

I'm really starting to think that Illyrio is Gerion Lannister. 

 

Edited by Lollygag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I’m a Stark fan but I don’t think we’re getting that Stark fist pump moment, I’m not sure they’re the good guys any more or less than anyone else, I’m not sure all of the Stark kids will get their reunion, and it’s not a given for me that they’ll all end up on the same side of things. All of the Stark kids show traits which really worry me.

Sansa won’t become LF jr or a master player at 14 years old. She’ll be just good enough, which isn’t really saying much for a Stark. Her special skill will be recognizing tricks and plays which is where the Starks have faltered in the past.

I used to think the Lannisters’ role was just political, but in rereads, I’m starting to think they’re a magical (cursed) dark horse. This might not be about Fire/Targs and Ice/Starks the way I’ve thought it would be.

The prophesies aren’t true.

Mirri Maz Duur’s telling Dany she can’t have kids is about Dany now being too magical and she won’t have kids again until her ties to magic are weakened or gone or magic itself is ended. Only death (or infertility) can pay for life.  Mirri was middle-aged, had no children to speak of, and said she paid dearly for her abilities over life and death. I think that payment was giving up children.

I'm really starting to think that Illyrio is Gerion Lannister. 

 

I've never heard about Illyrio being Gerion. Is this actually a thing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

I've never heard about Illyrio being Gerion. Is this actually a thing?

I don't know if it's a thing or not as I've not looked. I assume it's already out there somewhere and is just unpopular. Did a lot of research into Gerion and Brightroar (we know more than we think we do) and then when I read Illyrio a lot of bells went off. I'll do an OP on it at one point. 

Just a summary of some points I'll touch on. Basically, read up on Gerion, then read Illyrio with that in mind. 

· Tyrion asks to go to Essos (Gerion’s fascinated by it) but Tywin says no as he can’t be counted on to not marry a whore. Tyrion says the other Lannister men were allowed to go and Tywin replies neither of his brothers married a whore. Tywin has 3 brothers, not two.

· Illyrio/Serra fits in well with the Lannsiter whore/wife confusion. Also Hands of Gold are always cold but a woman’s hands are warm” which is on Tyrion's mind fits in well with Illyrio keeping Serra's stone hands. 

· Gerion is said to take after his father Tytos, both being called the Laughing Lion. Illyrio has gold hair, laughs a lot, and is grossly overweight like Tytos.

· Gerion taught Tyrion to tumble which ticks off Twyin who thinks it’s acting like a monkey. Illyrio names Tyrion “Yollo” which Tyrion equates to a monkey name.

· Illyrio, Gerion, Tyrion (I recall hearing somewhere on the this forum where GRRM said look to names for clues to alternate identities.

· Illyrio keeps getting compared to Casterly Rock, talks about gold all of the time, brings up repaying debts.

· Gerion marrying a whore might be a reason Tywin might exile him and claim him to be dead. ADWD Tyiron II: The cheesemonger smiled through his forked beard. "And Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home."

· Tyrion thinks to the effect of “I’ll never see that uncle again” when thinking about Kevan. Tyrion has no uncles left but Kevan so the statement is odd. Tyrion then goes on to meet up with Illyrio.

· Illyrio’s interest in Aegon is similar to Gerion’s interest in Joy. I don’t necessarily think Aegon is Illyrio’s kid though. Gerion seems to have liked kids in general. 

· Illyrio being Gerion fits right in with the toxic Lannister uncle/nephew thing.

· Gerion is described as hanging out with cheesemongers and spice lords.

· Gerion said more or less better to joke than play the game and lose, which means Gerion was gauaging when to play and when not play. Gerion gave Robert a VS steel dagger which Tywin took as Gerion trying to gain Robert’s favor. The general perception of Gerion being just a good-time guy falls apart upon closer inspection. Gerion and Varys is more believable than Illyrio and Varys which Tyrion has already called out as being a BS story, at least partially.

· Gerion as Illyrio trying usurp his own family is so Lannister.

ADWD Tyrion I

"You drink a deal of wine for such a little man."

"Kinslaying is dry work. It gives a man a thirst."

The fat man's eyes glittered like the gemstones on his fingers.

AGOT Daenerys I

"I shall kill the Usurper myself," he promised, who had never killed anyone, "as he killed my brother Rhaegar. And Lannister too, the Kingslayer, for what he did to my father."

"That would be most fitting," Magister Illyrio said. Dany saw the smallest hint of a smile playing around his full lips, but her brother did not notice.

 

Edited by Lollygag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 2/16/2018 at 5:35 PM, Risto said:

I am not sure that it can be said for everyone. There are characters who make mistakes, or who are in shades of grey, like Tyrion and Dany, to mention few. But, Catelyn was making mistakes, many villains' acts in ASOIAF are not mistakes. Walder Frey and Roose Bolton didn't make a mistake, they knew what they were doing.

Tyrion and Dany are both grey, I’ll give you that... Cat has good intentions sometimes but also has a remorseless vengeful side (sad bells) and reckless disregard for authority (capturing Tyrion and releasing Jaime), but for me lacks the redeeming qualities of Tyrion and Dany.

Walder Frey and Roose Bolton are interesting in that their greatest “sin” is usually viewed as the Red Wedding, because they brake oath and betray they’re liege lord respectively, however these are both crimes previously committed by Robb. Frankly both of them are closer to fancy pieces than true players. They are undoubtably selfish, but lack the masochism of Ramsay Snow or the calculated brutality of Tywin.

Cat sort of covers all the bases... brutally murdering an innocent fool, betraying her liege, selfishly breakin the king’s peace to capture Tyrion. She even seems to be looking forward to hurting other people at points...

Quote

Cersei is also aware of what she is doing. Ramsay, Balon, Tywin, Littlefinger... They have all known what they were doing. It didn't happen as some sort of mistake.

Cat knows she had no right to capture Tyrion... or release Jaime. The fact that murdering an innocent is wrong should be self evident.

Quote

I don't think that is the only thing that makes her sympathetic. I believe Catelyn is a good woman who was dragged into the war she never asked for. Her kid was attacked in her own home, something had to be done. I understand Catelyn because she is a mother who is trying to protect the family. And by doing so, she is not committing heinous acts. She does make mistakes, that is for sure, but simply she lacks malice.

She started the war by blaming Tyrion for sending an assassin he didn’t send.

Almost everyone in a war is their against their wills and trying to defend their families.

By accepting the privileges of Lady Stark of Winterfell, she also accepted responsibilities to those she rules, responsibilities she completely neglects, literally running off and abandoning her teenage son to rule. 

Also, Malice:

“Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be.” Catelyn replied. "Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy … but I understand futility.” 

Laugh out loud funny section btw, she’s wrong about almost everything in retrospect and she doesn’t know anything about futility yet...

Quote

Yes, a character can be both a villain and a victim, but I fail to understand how it pertains to Catelyn. 

Bad things happen to her and she does bad things, immoral things, and has now returned as vengeance incarnate.

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Tyrion and Dany are both grey, I’ll give you that... Cat has good intentions sometimes but also has a remorseless vengeful side (sad bells) and reckless disregard for authority (capturing Tyrion and releasing Jaime), but for me lacks the redeeming qualities of Tyrion and Dany.

First, even GRRM said that Catelyn indeed HAD some grounds in capturing Tyrion. He said that it was the fact that Tyrion was a Lannister much bigger issue than the fact that Catelyn was in Riverlands. At the moment of arrest, Catelyn was de facto Warden of the North, as Ned clearly gave her all the power to rule in his name. So she always had the authority necessary to do what she did. It certainly was a dangerous move, but within the rights she had. 

As for vengeful spirit, I am sorry, but I can't hold her accountable for something she did in mind she was. We are not talking about cold, calculative murder, but about a woman whose mind has been completely shattered by events that happened around her.

GRRM even said that we can't look at Lady Stoneheart as continuation of Catelyn, but as almost a new life. LS is just a shell of what Catelyn was.

30 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Cat knows she had no right to capture Tyrion... or release Jaime. The fact that murdering an innocent is wrong should be self evident.

Again, Catelyn had every right. Also, she arrested Tyrion in Robert's name on the grounds of serious accusations. As false as those accusations were, something she didn't know, the basis for his arrest was there.

Again, killing Bells is something we can't judge as her normal behavior. Especially having in mind her mindset at the moment. Which, btw, was the most difficult thing for Martin to write.

33 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, Malice:

“Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be.” Catelyn replied. "Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy … but I understand futility.” 

Are you seriously claiming malice in the quote that shows her anti-war feelings?

34 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Bad things happen to her and she does bad things, immoral things, and has now returned as vengeance incarnate.

And that is a new character. Lady Stoneheart is most certainly NOT Catelyn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Stannis is manly,

Cat was more then just a Mother archetype,

Dorne is Overrated

Theon isn't a jerk

Littlefingers isn't evil.

Arya is messed up in the head, by all the horrible things she has seen and done.

Cersi really doesn't love her children,

Jamie did nothing wrong, besides loving his sister and pushing Bran out the way.

The Targs where foolish not to install fear / More power after there dragons died.

Daddy Bolten is a fun guy to read about, and isn't generically evil like his Bastard. 

Ned Stark is a Honorable guy, because he is one of the few people who care about children. 

Dany / Jon never making any mistakes or doing anything wrong /sarcasm

Tyrion is fun to read, and overall one of the best characters.

Edited by Rikkisix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of opinions I hold that seem not to be favored by the readership in general:

Randyll Tarley is less some sort of monster than he is like an actual medieval lord. Those guys were cast-iron SOBs on roller skates.

Syrio Forel lives. Because we don't see him die, and no unwitnessed death is real. And he deserves a better end than at the hands of Meryn Trant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

Cat knows she had no right to capture Tyrion... or release Jaime. The fact that murdering an innocent is wrong should be self evident.

Catelyn had just seen her son killed and had herself received a crossbow bolt through the body. Jinglebell was the only Frey she could reach and he was at least guilty by association.

Edited by Light a wight tonight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Risto said:

First, even GRRM said that Catelyn indeed HAD some grounds in capturing Tyrion. He said that it was the fact that Tyrion was a Lannister much bigger issue than the fact that Catelyn was in Riverlands. At the moment of arrest, Catelyn was de facto Warden of the North, as Ned clearly gave her all the power to rule in his name. So she always had the authority necessary to do what she did. It certainly was a dangerous move, but within the rights she had. 

No she wasn’t.

Ned left her to help rule winterfell, a responsibility she abandoned.

She had suspicions... and that’s why it’s wrong and unjust to run around carrying out your own vendettas.

The idea that you would condemn someone simply because of their last name is evil... I can’t believe you are trying to make that a defense.

She certainly had no right to call on her father’s bannermen to arrest (and start a war) an innocent man.

50 minutes ago, Risto said:

As for vengeful spirit, I am sorry, but I can't hold her accountable for something she did in mind she was.

I believe people should be held accountable for their actions. She may also be a victim but that doesn’t excuse her actions.

50 minutes ago, Risto said:

We are not talking about cold, calculative murder, but about a woman whose mind has been completely shattered by events that happened around her.

Sad, but see above.

50 minutes ago, Risto said:

GRRM even said that we can't look at Lady Stoneheart as continuation of Catelyn, but as almost a new life. LS is just a shell of what Catelyn was.

Got a quote? 

50 minutes ago, Risto said:

Again, Catelyn had every right. Also, she arrested Tyrion in Robert's name on the grounds of serious accusations. As false as those accusations were, something she didn't know, the basis for his arrest was there.

No, she was not acting within the law. She did not have the right to capture Tyrion as Robert made clear. 

It isn’t ok to just arrest people on the road because you “suspect” them of things... just wow.

50 minutes ago, Risto said:

Again, killing Bells is something we can't judge as her normal behavior. Especially having in mind her mindset at the moment. Which, btw, was the most difficult thing for Martin to write.

Again, I can sympathize with her as a victim, but that doesn’t excuse her behavior. In fact being a crazy person isn’t an excuse... otherwise couldn’t you make that excuse for other characters who experience trauma? It’s an explanation not an excuse.

50 minutes ago, Risto said:

Are you seriously claiming malice in the quote that shows her anti-war feelings?

A war she caused!

Yes, clearly... she is literally bragging about how not gentle she would be with Cersei... malice.

and she doesn’t know tactics or strategy, or futility...

And she preaches against war when it suits her. She’s a hypocrite, why does she deserve vengeance against Tyrion at the expense of the realm, but Lord Karstark doesn’t deserve his vengeance because it doesn’t directly effect her. 

I think she fails to fundamentally consider the repercussions of her actions over and over again, while not holding herself to the same standards she claims to judge the world by.

50 minutes ago, Risto said:

And that is a new character. Lady Stoneheart is most certainly NOT Catelyn.

To be determined...

but I find it almost impossible to imagine it’s not at least derived from Cat, it might be missing parts of herself like Berric was, but I don’t see any reason to think it’s a different beast entirely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Light a wight tonight said:

Catelyn had just seen her son killed and had herself received a crossbow bolt through the body. Jinglebell was the only Frey she could reach and he was at least guilty by association.

This... guilty by association... blaming people for the sins of their parents... NOT DOING THIS is the most important lesson in the series! It applies to her actions towards Jon, Tyrion, and Jinglebells... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Syrio Forel lives. Because we don't see him die, and no unwitnessed death is real. And he deserves a better end than at the hands of Meryn Trant.

Double twist! Syrio Forrel died protecting the old Sealord of Braavos and we only ever met a Faceless Man (Jaqen) wearing his face.

because you are right, deserves better

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This... guilty by association... blaming people for the sins of their parents... NOT DOING THIS is the most important lesson in the series! It applies to her actions towards Jon, Tyrion, and Jinglebells... 

I fear I can't see how not killing Jinglebell is any kind of lesson. I must be insufficiently evolved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×