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Unpopular Opinions?

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21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

No she wasn’t.

Ned left her to help rule winterfell, a responsibility she abandoned.

She had suspicions... and that’s why it’s wrong and unjust to run around carrying out your own vendettas.

The idea that you would condemn someone simply because of their last name is evil... I can’t believe you are trying to make that a defense.

She certainly had no right to call on her father’s bannermen to arrest (and start a war) an innocent man.

She was, at the moment, ruling Lady of Winterfell and a member of the ruling family in Riverlands. Her claim would be stronger in North, but she is not without claim in Riverlands, either.

She didn't abandon the position of ruling Winterfell, she renounced it in favor of her son. Which may be her biggest mistake.

She arrested Tyrion on charges she believed are enough. That is how law worked and how even works these days. Police arrests you and then you prove your case. I don't know what is the issue here.

26 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I believe people should be held accountable for their actions. She may also be a victim but that doesn’t excuse her actions.

The law, modern and even the medieval recognized the unlawfulness of prosecution of mentally unstable persons. And Catelyn most certainly was not in her sound mind at the moment. Unless you want to claim otherwise?

28 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Got a quote? 

Lady Stoneheart was always imagined as GRRM's answer to Gandal's resurection in LOTR. He believes that death takes your soul, or at least, part of you and that it would be impossible to come back from death unscathed. That is why LS is so different from Catelyn. Even Thoros spoke of how Beric was losing himself with each new resurrection.

Quote

 

Did Lady Stoneheart come about because it was hard to say a permanent goodbye to Catelyn?

Yeah, maybe. That may have been part of it. Part of it was also, it’s the dialogue that I was talking about. And here I’ve got to get back to Tolkien again. And I’m going to seem like I’m criticizing him, which I guess I am. It’s always bothered me that Gandalf comes back from the dead. The Red Wedding for me in Lord of the Rings is the mines of Moria, and when Gandalf falls — it’s a devastating moment! I didn’t see it coming at 13 years old, it just totally took me by surprise. Gandalf can’t die! He’s the guy that knows all of the things that are happening! He’s one of the main heroes here! Oh god, what are they going to do without Gandalf? Now it’s just the hobbits?! And Boromir, and Aragorn? Well, maybe Aragorn will do, but it’s just a huge moment. A huge emotional investment.

And then in the next book, he shows up again, and it was six months between the American publications of those books, which seemed like a million years to me. So all that time I thought Gandalf was dead, and now he’s back and now he’s Gandalf the White. And, ehh, he’s more or less the same as always, except he’s more powerful. It always felt a little bit like a cheat to me. And as I got older and considered it more, it also seemed to me that death doesn’t make you more powerful. That’s, in some ways, me talking to Tolkien in the dialogue, saying, “Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever.” That’s what I was trying to do, and am still trying to do, with the Lady Stoneheart character.

 

 

43 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And she preaches against war when it suits her. She’s a hypocrite, why does she deserve vengeance against Tyrion at the expense of the realm, but Lord Karstark doesn’t deserve his vengeance because it doesn’t directly effect her. 

Perhaps because she didn't exact revenge on Tyrion? She didn't kill him right then and there. She imprisoned him in the name of the King, something she had some right to do so. That was not revenge. 

I am sorry, but we have fundamentally different views on Catelyn and Martin's writing. Given that I see that neither one of us will change the position, we should call it for today... All the best :D

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Only on the first book so forgive me if I don't have all the evidence in place but going off what I know I guess the only unpopular opinion I have so far is that I sort of pity Joffrey in a way. Being a product of incest between twins is about as inbred as one can get, and while one can argue that Tommen and Myrcella didn't turn out insane like Joffrey, Cersei spoiled Joffrey all his life, more than the other too. He's a product of both his likely poor genetics and the toxic environment he was raised in. I still dislike him but in a way pity him, idk if that makes sense or not. 

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Weeeell, given where the forum is right now, the opinions I hold that seem to be unpopular are:

Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon

Aerys + Rhaella = Dany

Tywin + Joanna = Cersei, Jaime & Tyrion

Catelyn was a fundamentally good woman but also a tragic heroine who has been wilfully misunderstood and weirdly demonised by part of the readership.  It seems part of the fashionable trend to be contrarian and turn everything on it's head but the author clearly doesn't portray her as a "villain"

Also

On 09/01/2018 at 1:59 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said:
  1. There is no Azor Ahai Reborn, no PTWP.  The prophecies do not need to be fulfilled by one or two people.  They may motivate character actions but are not real.
  2. The Others are the simple evil terminators they've thus far been shown to be.  There is no complexity with them, their motivation is just to kill.

I can get behind this but, though I believe the Others are effectively evil or the enemy as far as humanity is concerned, there is something in their nature that will be a major reveal

On 10/01/2018 at 3:48 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Mance, Benjen, Euron and Dario are individuals who are not in several places at once being multiple people 

Stahp with this level of craziness!

On 16/02/2018 at 8:34 PM, Seams said:

1) Illyrio Mopatis is Arthur Dayne.

2) Old Nan is a Faceless Man and was supposed to kill Bran. The catspaw was just delivering the knife to the real killer. ("No one was supposed to be here.")

3) Petyr Baelish has hatched some dragon eggs. He may be a Velaryon descendant.

4) Sweetrobin will end up on the Iron Throne at the end of the series.

5) Doran Martell is as big a player as Bloodraven, manipulating people from a distance.

6) Joffrey was Azor Ahai reborn.

Do you honestly believe these or are you just fond of whacky theories?  Being fond of whacky theories is of course fine, actually believing them is a bit more surprising.

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20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I don't know if it's a thing or not as I've not looked. I assume it's already out there somewhere and is just unpopular. Did a lot of research into Gerion and Brightroar (we know more than we think we do) and then when I read Illyrio a lot of bells went off. I'll do an OP on it at one point. 

Just a summary of some points I'll touch on. Basically, read up on Gerion, then read Illyrio with that in mind. 

· Tyrion asks to go to Essos (Gerion’s fascinated by it) but Tywin says no as he can’t be counted on to not marry a whore. Tyrion says the other Lannister men were allowed to go and Tywin replies neither of his brothers married a whore. Tywin has 3 brothers, not two.

· Illyrio/Serra fits in well with the Lannsiter whore/wife confusion. Also Hands of Gold are always cold but a woman’s hands are warm” which is on Tyrion's mind fits in well with Illyrio keeping Serra's stone hands. 

· Gerion is said to take after his father Tytos, both being called the Laughing Lion. Illyrio has gold hair, laughs a lot, and is grossly overweight like Tytos.

· Gerion taught Tyrion to tumble which ticks off Twyin who thinks it’s acting like a monkey. Illyrio names Tyrion “Yollo” which Tyrion equates to a monkey name.

· Illyrio, Gerion, Tyrion (I recall hearing somewhere on the this forum where GRRM said look to names for clues to alternate identities.

· Illyrio keeps getting compared to Casterly Rock, talks about gold all of the time, brings up repaying debts.

· Gerion marrying a whore might be a reason Tywin might exile him and claim him to be dead. ADWD Tyiron II: The cheesemonger smiled through his forked beard. "And Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home."

· Tyrion thinks to the effect of “I’ll never see that uncle again” when thinking about Kevan. Tyrion has no uncles left but Kevan so the statement is odd. Tyrion then goes on to meet up with Illyrio.

· Illyrio’s interest in Aegon is similar to Gerion’s interest in Joy. I don’t necessarily think Aegon is Illyrio’s kid though. Gerion seems to have liked kids in general. 

· Illyrio being Gerion fits right in with the toxic Lannister uncle/nephew thing.

· Gerion is described as hanging out with cheesemongers and spice lords.

· Gerion said more or less better to joke than play the game and lose, which means Gerion was gauaging when to play and when not play. Gerion gave Robert a VS steel dagger which Tywin took as Gerion trying to gain Robert’s favor. The general perception of Gerion being just a good-time guy falls apart upon closer inspection. Gerion and Varys is more believable than Illyrio and Varys which Tyrion has already called out as being a BS story, at least partially.

· Gerion as Illyrio trying usurp his own family is so Lannister.

ADWD Tyrion I

"You drink a deal of wine for such a little man."

"Kinslaying is dry work. It gives a man a thirst."

The fat man's eyes glittered like the gemstones on his fingers.

AGOT Daenerys I

"I shall kill the Usurper myself," he promised, who had never killed anyone, "as he killed my brother Rhaegar. And Lannister too, the Kingslayer, for what he did to my father."

"That would be most fitting," Magister Illyrio said. Dany saw the smallest hint of a smile playing around his full lips, but her brother did not notice.

 

Three very prosaic reasons that Illyrio is not Gerion are:

1)  Illyrio is 10 to 15 years older than Gerion would be.

2)  Illyrio was becoming a very wealthy man with Varys before Gerion left Westeros.

3)  Tyrion would have been about 14 years old when Gerion left. It is not plausible that he wouldn't recognize his uncle.

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A few came to mind:

1) Jon is the child of Ned and Ashara and not of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

2) The minor POV characters introduced in AFFC and ADWD are a great addition.

3) GRRM will finish all books

4) Dorne will not really support the Targs

5) The Greyjoy storyline > Dorne storyline

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17 hours ago, Risto said:

She was, at the moment, ruling Lady of Winterfell and a member of the ruling family in Riverlands. Her claim would be stronger in North, but she is not without claim in Riverlands, either.

As you point out below, she left Robb ruling Winterfell. But even so, the crossroads is in the riverlands.

There’s no issue of claim here, I don’t know what you mean. She has no jurisdiction to enforce the kings laws in the Kingsroad. She coerces her father’s bannermen’s men to support her, but she lacks authority to make an arrest in anyone’s name at the inn of the crossroads.

17 hours ago, Risto said:

She didn't abandon the position of ruling Winterfell, she renounced it in favor of her son. Which may be her biggest mistake.

It was a mistake for sure... abandon or entrust to your teenage son, call it what you will... semantics.

17 hours ago, Risto said:

She arrested Tyrion on charges she believed are enough. That is how law worked and how even works these days. Police arrests you and then you prove your case. I don't know what is the issue here.

No it’s not how the law works, then or now.

She is not the police, she holds no official position in the riverlands, nor writ from the king to enforce justice in his name.

It is wrong now, and wrong then, for citizens to abduct one another based on suspicions.

17 hours ago, Risto said:

The law, modern and even the medieval recognized the unlawfulness of prosecution of mentally unstable persons. And Catelyn most certainly was not in her sound mind at the moment. Unless you want to claim otherwise?

Irrelevant to making a moral judgement of her actions... I think she did lots of crazy things. I’m not a justice system sentencing her, I’m judging her actions and their repercussions.

I sympathize with her plight, she went through a lot, but it doesn’t make her action any less reprehensible. More understandable maybe, but it doesn’t justify it. 

17 hours ago, Risto said:

Lady Stoneheart was always imagined as GRRM's answer to Gandal's resurection in LOTR. He believes that death takes your soul, or at least, part of you and that it would be impossible to come back from death unscathed. That is why LS is so different from Catelyn. Even Thoros spoke of how Beric was losing himself with each new resurrection.

I can’t tell if you meant to make my point? Also, the GRRM quote doesn’t say what you are describing... it seems to say what I did.

Undead Cat might be changed, may have lost something of her humanity and memory, but isn’t something completely new.

17 hours ago, Risto said:

Perhaps because she didn't exact revenge on Tyrion? She didn't kill him right then and there. She imprisoned him in the name of the King, something she had some right to do so. That was not revenge. 

The king called it abduction. I don’t know how this is even a debate...

Quote

 

"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."
"Catelyn had good reason for taking the Imp—" 
"I said, I will not have it! To hell with her reasons. You will command her to release the dwarf at once, and you will make your peace with Jaime."

 

To hell and back again, apparently...

She clearly didn’t have the right to do it. 

17 hours ago, Risto said:

I am sorry, but we have fundamentally different views on Catelyn and Martin's writing. Given that I see that neither one of us will change the position, we should call it for today... All the best :D

We clearly have different views... but nothing wrong with that!

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Unpopular opinions... anything that displeases the Stannis fanboys. 

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6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

As you point out below, she left Robb ruling Winterfell. But even so, the crossroads is in the riverlands.

There’s no issue of claim here, I don’t know what you mean. She has no jurisdiction to enforce the kings laws in the Kingsroad. She coerces her father’s bannermen’s men to support her, but she lacks authority to make an arrest in anyone’s name at the inn of the crossroads.

It was a mistake for sure... abandon or entrust to your teenage son, call it what you will... semantics.

No it’s not how the law works, then or now.

She is not the police, she holds no official position in the riverlands, nor writ from the king to enforce justice in his name.

It is wrong now, and wrong then, for citizens to abduct one another based on suspicions.

Irrelevant to making a moral judgement of her actions... I think she did lots of crazy things. I’m not a justice system sentencing her, I’m judging her actions and their repercussions.

I sympathize with her plight, she went through a lot, but it doesn’t make her action any less reprehensible. More understandable maybe, but it doesn’t justify it. 

I can’t tell if you meant to make my point? Also, the GRRM quote doesn’t say what you are describing... it seems to say what I did.

Undead Cat might be changed, may have lost something of her humanity and memory, but isn’t something completely new.

The king called it abduction. I don’t know how this is even a debate...

To hell and back again, apparently...

She clearly didn’t have the right to do it. 

We clearly have different views... but nothing wrong with that!

Wow, it's like you dislike Catelyn more than Door Guard #1 and Dareon combined!

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9 hours ago, JS97 said:

A few came to mind:

1) Jon is the child of Ned and Ashara and not of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

2) The minor POV characters introduced in AFFC and ADWD are a great addition.

3) GRRM will finish all books

4) Dorne will not really support the Targs

5) The Greyjoy storyline > Dorne storyline

Agree on all points except for #1. Don't get me wrong- I think it would be hilarious to see 25 years of RLJ theorizing turning out to be nothing at all, but Ned and Ashara I have trouble accepting. I'm more partial to the Brandon and Ashara theory.

I'm with you all the way to the bank on #4. Prince Doran is up to something that he's not cluing us in to. House Martell would have no reason to love House Targaryen. The Iron Throne took away Sunspear's autonomy, At least three Targaryen Kings attempted violent martial invasions of Dorne, and the Mad King kept Elia and her children as hostages. Not to mention that everyone, regardless of what story they've heard, agrees that Rhaegar abandoned Elia for Lyanna (whether it was actually abduction, seduction, or a bit of both, we don't know yet- although, I throw up in my mouth a little bit at the idea of a star-crossed lovers story). 

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7 hours ago, JoeMama said:

Unpopular opinions... anything that displeases the Stannis fanboys. 

I'm a minor Stannis fanboy. I think he's such a fascinating character- flawed, driven, funny, but doomed. I accept he won't ever become king, but I hope that he dies fighting a worthwhile battle. 

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1. Like others above, I just seriously dislike Tyrion. He's skeevy with a side of SOB. 

2. I love secret Targ theories. They suck me in every time; even if I don't believe them all. 

3. GRRM is a terrible world builder compared to other works I've read. Great at writing fake histories! But not the best at creating a world that makes sense (at least to me). Granted, he's much better at it than I would be! 

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Jon warged into ghost and will live his life as ghost

Gerold Dayne has damaging information on Elia

There will be Krakens

Cannibal is the dragon that will awake from stone 

Arya will be Lady of Winterfell

Aegon is neither a targ or a blackfyre 

Arianne is one of the best characters 

 

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2 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

I'm with you all the way to the bank on #4. Prince Doran is up to something that he's not cluing us in to. House Martell would have no reason to love House Targaryen. The Iron Throne took away Sunspear's autonomy, At least three Targaryen Kings attempted violent martial invasions of Dorne, and the Mad King kept Elia and her children as hostages. Not to mention that everyone, regardless of what story they've heard, agrees that Rhaegar abandoned Elia for Lyanna (whether it was actually abduction, seduction, or a bit of both, we don't know yet- although, I throw up in my mouth a little bit at the idea of a star-crossed lovers story). 

Agree on Dorne.  I think there is more there.  

43 minutes ago, Bitterblooms said:

1. Like others above, I just seriously dislike Tyrion. He's skeevy with a side of SOB. 

2. I love secret Targ theories. They suck me in every time; even if I don't believe them all.

I like secret targ theories too.  And I don't believe any of them either.  Also not a big fan of tyrion.  I believe he would not have a good end.  He is a kinslayer.  I also believe that Stannis is doomed.  He either knew or overlooked or was purposely ignorant of what Melisandre and her shadow baby did to renly.  He was willing to sacrifice his innocent nephew too.

31 minutes ago, Crona said:

Jon warged into ghost and will live his life as ghost

Gerold Dayne has damaging information on Elia

There will be Krakens

Arya will be Lady of Winterfell

Aegon is neither a targ or a blackfyre 

Arianne is one of the best characters 

 

Agree on most of this.  Except I don't think Arya would be lady of winterfell.  I think she would be lady of the castle, get married and have many kids.  I just don't see her ruling winterfell.

 The stark line would only continue through the female line.  I don't think either bran or rickon would have kids.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, goldenmaps said:

 

Agree on most of this.  Except I don't think Arya would be lady of winterfell.  I think she would be lady of the castle, get married and have many kids.  I just don't see her ruling winterfell.

 The stark line would only continue through the female line.  I don't think either bran or rickon would have kids.

You agree even on Cannibal coming back? I would love it xD

Arya coming back to westeros is just a hunch, but I think her dire wolf being also named Nymeria, she leads the pack and also Varys’s quote to Kevan makes me think she will be in a leadership position in the North. I agree that she might not be Lady of Wintefell, but she will be a leader of some sort

Edited by Crona

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13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Wow, it's like you dislike Catelyn more than Door Guard #1 and Dareon combined!

Haha I see you, all in good fun! But for real though she’s not my favorite...

The only thing that surprises me more the popular positive opinion of Cat is the fact that people seem to think Bloodraven is a good guy... 

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12 hours ago, Crona said:

You agree even on Cannibal coming back? I would love it xD

Arya coming back to westeros is just a hunch, but I think her dire wolf being also named Nymeria, she leads the pack and also Varys’s quote to Kevan makes me think she will be in a leadership position in the North. I agree that she might not be Lady of Wintefell, but she will be a leader of some sort

I have no clue what cannibal is, so I can't make an informed choice about that.  

Arya being some sort of leader in Westeros, north or south,  I think would happen.  

 

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On ‎01‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 6:21 PM, Fishb20 said:

1) the books are not coming out any slower than they "should" be if you look at the relative legnth of time between the previous two books. If the next one's not out by 2021 then it's time to start getting concerned

 

But at this rate is GRRM gonna finish the series before he dies? We've yet to even get a release date for Winds of Winter and then we have A Dream of Spring that needs to come out to finish it all. All this and we hear he's working on a book that expands on the history of the House Targaryen that we got in The World of Ice and Fire. It's like come on GRRM, you're not gonna live forever, focus and please finish the main series we love so much.

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23 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

I'm a minor Stannis fanboy. I think he's such a fascinating character- flawed, driven, funny, but doomed. I accept he won't ever become king, but I hope that he dies fighting a worthwhile battle. 

I reckon he'll die at the Wall, fighting the Others. It's the sort of cruel death he seems slated for, given his poor run of luck.

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10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Haha I see you, all in good fun! But for real though she’s not my favorite...

The only thing that surprises me more the popular positive opinion of Cat is the fact that people seem to think Bloodraven is a good guy... 

You just know I'm one of those people, right :D

It's worth remembering that no such character as Brynden rivers / Bloodraven has been introduced or explained in ASOIAF, he is only introduced in the companion novellas (which I have never read).

The threee-eyed crow (and yes I mean the guy in the cave) is simply introduced as a greenseer who was formerly a man of the NW.  The ASOIAF reader is not aware of any sinister or ruthless reputation that attached to Bloodraven and I feel that some of the darker theories that attach to the character don't actually spring from the story that GRRM is telling.  I'm of the thought that if he had wanted us to know, figure out or wonder if this was Bloodraven and what that might mean for Bran he would have introduced the character in infodumps as he did with Rhaegar, Lyanna, Aerys and other characters who cast a shadow over or reappear in story (I'm looking at you Jon Connington).  That the character has no introduction in story at all leads me to think his past is irrelevant and his identity is more of an easter egg for readers of the novellas than a useful bit of information which might help to predict plot direction / twists that all readers would benefit from and should have acess to.  Magic is a sword without a hilt and the price he has paid (and which Bran may pay) for wielding it is scary and gruesome enough in it's own right, as is the nature of the Godhood of the Old Gods, to explain the creepy and repressive atmosphere in the cave without introducing any notion that they are all bent on evil or being seduced into serving the Great Other.

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