Jon, Mance’s Blue Rose, and the Dayne Heiress. (Updated 1/15)

[Clegane'sPup]

On 1/12/2018 at 10:12 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

i seem to recall a conversation between Jon and Mance where Mance made the statement " i didn't steal your sister and mother" something like that i don't have my books on hand. It was an off the cuff remark to something Jon said to him.Can anyone who have their books on hand or online track it down?

 

Maybe this is helpful or not.

The Bael bard story is told by Ygritte in CoK Jon IV.

Mance & Jon’s conversation takes place in SoS Jon I.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I    "Bael the Bard," said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he'd almost killed her.  "Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?"

[JNR]

On 1/11/2018 at 1:43 PM, Ygrain said:

He just wasn't a very good rider, for lack of opportunity to practice, and he wasn't good enough to joust.

He certainly seems to have had zero experience jousting against anyone, that's true -- let alone jousting against trained knights.  Just like Lyanna...

On 1/11/2018 at 1:43 PM, Ygrain said:

BTW, are Rhaegar and Lyanna at least on the same continent now?

Good question.  However, since we have no new canon, it's hard to say, isn't it?

Can anyone demonstrate conclusively that Rhaegar and Lyanna were on the same continent at any point during Robert's Rebellion? 

Four or five years have floated by since I asked this, and nobody so far has been able to come up with anything.  Ygrain, how about you?

[JNR]

On 1/11/2018 at 3:19 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Now, given the bolded how might Howland, who mind you; just had a stint studying on the IOF.

Well, it's very speculative, but if the "magic" that Meera says he went to the Isle of Faces to learn was skinchanging, he had the power to spook the opposing knights' horses.  It wouldn't take much -- just a little nudge would freak them out.

We see Loras use a similar idea in AGOT.  He throws the Mountain's horse off its stride by riding a mare in heat, and thus wins the joust despite being a far smaller and weaker knight with a far shorter reach.

Quote

"Tyrell had to know the mare was in heat," Littlefinger was saying. "I swear the boy planned the whole thing."

Of course, Howland still had never jousted once in his life, so he could hardly have known in advance whether such a stunt would work well enough for him to win.  His heart would have been torn.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 1/12/2018 at 5:55 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

This was my thought as well.He was in a tourney setting and here was a guy telling of tales of fighting Wildlings etc.

It would be an opportunity for him to make his own mark.

Will do.

That one still never took off lmao, this one is still the one being discussed hahaha oh well. I was just trying to be reasonable and keep it open for every body to debate more. Cause under the other thread Brandon and Eddard Stark are in the mix

[AlaskanSandman]

On 1/12/2018 at 6:23 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

Not sure we ever get an indication of Lyanna's height, but as a fourteen or fifteen year old girl she would be smaller than average grown men, and as someone who was not permitted to openly train at arms, she is likely to have been smaller than the similarly aged squires she drove off. There is no reason to believe that she would have been significantly larger than Howland Reed. But as even just a man of average height, it stretches credulity that Howland Reed would describe Mance Rayder as short of stature.

I understood where you were trying to go lol Lyanna. Which i was also talking against along with Howland. How does Lyanna make sense when the person spoke in a booming voice?

You guys speak of glamouring for Howland, yet how would Howland learn this? On the God's Eye? Yet, then why bother even with everything else? Why not just chill out then and enter the list. Why the whole being torn since he can't fight.

Neither of them make sense based on their descriptions. So either the narrator is being a little loose or inaccurate, or she's right on all counts. What is this picking and choosing which part she says is semi truthful, but yet, her calling the Kotlt short couldn't be loose narration? You can't argue against one idea and use the same premise to support you own. This goes for every one really. So if Lyanna is a possibility, then so is Mance who can actually ride and fight better than Jon Snow who trains with 3 people at once. Mance who knows of Blue roses from the North and would be imitating Bael by leaving one. Makes much more sense to the narrative beats than Lyanna being the Knight.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

15 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So if Lyanna is a possibility, then so is Mance

Not really. We know Lyanna was there. We have no reason to believe that Mance was there. 

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Not really. We know Lyanna was there. We have no reason to believe that Mance was there. 

There was a Black Brother at the Tourney during the years Mance was in the watch. Really? Yes it is possible and probable whether you agree with it or not. To argue against such just makes your credibility and biased opinion hard to get past. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

How does Lyanna make sense when the person spoke in a booming voice?

I might introduce you to a colleague of mine. She's a tiny wisp of a woman, and booms even when she's not even trying to speak aloud.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So if Lyanna is a possibility, then so is Mance who can actually ride and fight better than Jon Snow who trains with 3 people at once. Mance who knows of Blue roses from the North and would be imitating Bael by leaving one. Makes much more sense to the narrative beats than Lyanna being the Knight.

Care to explain where and why Mance learned to joust? It's not like the NW or wildlings practice the sport.

On the other hand, we know that Lyanna practiced with rings - why did GRRM give her such a hobby? And what is the narrative purpose of 

Spoiler

young Elia Sand, practicing the very same hobby?

 

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I might introduce you to a colleague of mine. She's a tiny wisp of a woman, and booms even when she's not even trying to speak aloud.

Care to explain where and why Mance learned to joust? It's not like the NW or wildlings practice the sport.

On the other hand, we know that Lyanna practiced with rings - why did GRRM give her such a hobby? And what is the narrative purpose of 

  Hide contents

young Elia Sand, practicing the very same hobby?

 

? What are you talking about?

And it's Jousting, not fricking algebra. 

Mance knows how to ride a horse. 

Now he's just got to be strong enough to carry a lance, and good enough of an aim to plant it in some ones chest. Im pretty sure some one can chance into beating a bunch of no body knights that don't even get a mention of being good knights. Not a very compelling argument.

And so what Elia Sand practices too. Is she now the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna also? or was there some other thing you were trying to get at?

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

19 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I might introduce you to a colleague of mine. She's a tiny wisp of a woman, and booms even when she's not even trying to speak aloud.

Care to explain where and why Mance learned to joust? It's not like the NW or wildlings practice the sport.

On the other hand, we know that Lyanna practiced with rings - why did GRRM give her such a hobby? And what is the narrative purpose of 

  Reveal hidden contents

young Elia Sand, practicing the very same hobby?

 

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=booming+

What female with a booming voice?

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime V

"They won't." Jaime dismounted. "Raise my tent and plant my standards." And we'll see who comes running, and how quickly.

It did not require long. Pia was fussing at a brazier, trying to light the coals. Peck went to help her. Of late, Jaime oft went to sleep to the sound of them fucking in a corner of the tent. As Garrett was undoing the clasps on Jaime's greaves, the tent flapped open. "Here at last, are you?" boomed his aunt. 

This one? Im still looking, certainly not any thin wisp of a woman (who ever that is)

 

Edit- wait no, im done, that was it. lol the rest all men 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So if Lyanna is a possibility, then so is Mance who can actually ride and fight better than Jon Snow who trains with 3 people at once.

OK, remind me, where is Mance's exceptional horsemanship mentioned? Because I honestly don't remember anything like that.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There was a Black Brother at the Tourney during the years Mance was in the watch. Really? Yes it is possible and probable whether you agree with it or not. To argue against such just makes your credibility and biased opinion hard to get past. 

Sure. Unless in those days the Night's Watch counted more than one black brother. If so, then we have no particular reason to believe it was Mance. "A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch", and this is all the description we get. Why is it Mance, instead of any other crow?

 

[AlaskanSandman]

While Rhaegar may or may not have been the one to take Lyanna Stark, there is a chance Mance could have been at the Tourney and a chance that the Knight in the Laughing Tree is Mance. I need to do some more checking on Mance glamouring later with Mel under Rattle shirt, but im willing to bet i missed something in there alluding to Mance having already glamoured before, probably by Howland Reed. Who would know how to glamour but do him no good as he still isn't strong enough or big enough to face the knights. 

These are probable and possible facts. Whether any one likes them or not and even if Rhaegar did indeed compete against Barristan and crown Lyanna and then steal her away, it still doesn't make sense of the rest of Harrenhal and what was going on or how Ashara Dayne fits into the picture. There has to be more to Harrenhal going on and what ever Rhaegar's og plan was before it got changed some how.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

OK, remind me, where is Mance's exceptional horsemanship mentioned? Because I honestly don't remember anything like that.

Sure. Unless in those days the Night's Watch counted more than one black brother. If so, then we have no particular reason to believe it was Mance. "A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch", and this is all the description we get. Why is it Mance, instead of any other crow?

 

To ride a horse down a straight line? i think your making a little much of the horse riding abilities needed to Joust lol they're not show ponies doing tricks. Mance can ride a horse, im pretty sure Mance can ride it in a straight line too. But idk, maybe im assuming to much lol

Ok, well that's deflective and pointless. Sure it could have been some one else, or it could also have been Mance who served at that same time lol giving it a statistical chance lol let me introduce you all to math

[AlaskanSandman]

Look, im humble enough to admit when i say something wrong or make a typo lol this is not the case. 

A brother from the watch was at Harrenhal the same year that Mance was serving under Lord Commander Qorgyle. 

[AlaskanSandman]

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

The bones remained—the rattling ribs, the claws and teeth along his arms and shoulders, the great yellowed collarbone across his shoulders. The broken giant's skull remained a broken giant's skull, yellowed and cracked, grinning its stained and savage grin.

The bones remained—the rattling ribs, the claws and teeth along his arms and shoulders, the great yellowed collarbone across his shoulders. The broken giant's skull remained a broken giant's skull, yellowed and cracked, grinning its stained and savage grin.

But the widow's peak dissolved. The brown mustache, the knobby chin, the sallow yellowed flesh and small dark eyes, all melted. Grey fingers crept throughlong brown hair. Laugh lines appeared at the corners of his mouth. All at once he was bigger than before, broader in the chest and shoulders, long-legged and lean, his face clean-shaved and windburnt.

Jon Snow's grey eyes grew wider. "Mance?"

"Lord Snow." Mance Rayder did not smile.

"She burned you."

"She burned the Lord of Bones."

Jon Snow turned to Melisandre. "What sorcery is this?"

"Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R'hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread."

Mance Rayder chuckled. "I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me."

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

She made it sound a simple thing, and easy. They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her. That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer. When the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, the ruby at her throat had grown so hot that she had feared her own flesh might start to smoke and blacken. Thankfully Lord Snow had delivered her from that agony with his arrows. Whilst Stannis had seethed at the defiance, she had shuddered with relief.

"Our false king has a prickly manner," Melisandre told Jon Snow, "but he will not betray you. We hold his son, remember. And he owes you his very life."

"Me?" Snow sounded startled.

"Who else, my lord? Only his life's blood could pay for his crimes, your laws said, and Stannis Baratheon is not a man to go against the law … but as you said sosagely, the laws of men end at the Wall. I told you that the Lord of Light would hear your prayers. You wanted a way to save your little sister and still hold fastto the honor that means so much to you, to the vows you swore before your wooden god." She pointed with a pale finger. "There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya'sdeliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light … and me."

 

 

So based on this at least, Mance has never dealt with being glamoured. So if he was there and the Knight, that's the end of his tie other than any possible back hand deal with Rhaegar. 

Rhaegar then was indeed the one to defeat Barristan, probably by trickery like Loras.

 

So any Mance theorizing should be limited to thus.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

To ride a horse down a straight line? i think your making a little much of the horse riding abilities needed to Joust lol they're not show ponies doing tricks. Mance can ride a horse, im pretty sure Mance can ride it in a straight line too. But idk, maybe im assuming to much lol

Ok, well that's deflective and pointless. Sure it could have been some one else, or it could also have been Mance who served at that same time lol giving it a statistical chance lol let me introduce you all to math

First, lol please lol don't put lol between lol any two lol words lol, it's only lol distracting lol without lol saying anything lol lol lol.

Second, your position that jousting is no big deal and requires no skills beside "can ride in a straight line" doesn't seem to be supported by the books. Unless you care to provide a quote lol?

Because in-universe jousting is perceived as a sport of skill, and so is the required horsemanship. Like here: "Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed. Ser Loras rode superbly, and handled a lance as if he'd been born holding one" - apparently, it does take some skill. Read the exploits of Ser Duncan the Tall to learn what happens to a wannabe jouster who is lacking in this department.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There was a Black Brother at the Tourney during the years Mance was in the watch. Really? Yes it is possible and probable whether you agree with it or not. To argue against such just makes your credibility and biased opinion hard to get past.

Mance told Jon that Benjen had never met him. So Mance was not at the tourney.

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I understood where you were trying to go lol Lyanna. Which i was also talking against along with Howland. How does Lyanna make sense when the person spoke in a booming voice?

Incorrect. Meera says TKOTLT spoke in a booming voice through his helm, not simply a booming voice. The helm and need to disguise the voice easily explain this description. And this is completely in line with Meera's use of "roar" and "howled" to descibe Lyanna driving off the squires in the same chapter and story just paragraphs earlier. You know, the person who actually drove off the squires of the knights TKOTLT challenged and defeated the next day? The person who is actually descibed as being an insane rider, and who is described in the app as having rode at rings like Daena the Defiant before her and Lady Lance currently. Mance has absolutely nothing to do with the story, was a ranger not a recruiter, and there is not a single hint he was even at the Harrenhal tourney.

[AlaskanSandman]

17 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

First, lol please lol don't put lol between lol any two lol words lol, it's only lol distracting lol without lol saying anything lol lol lol.

Second, your position that jousting is no big deal and requires no skills beside "can ride in a straight line" doesn't seem to be supported by the books. Unless you care to provide a quote lol?

Because in-universe jousting is perceived as a sport of skill, and so is the required horsemanship. Like here: "Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed. Ser Loras rode superbly, and handled a lance as if he'd been born holding one" - apparently, it does take some skill. Read the exploits of Ser Duncan the Tall to learn what happens to a wannabe jouster who is lacking in this department.

Well ill write lol when ever i feel like it, im sure there is no rule on that

and given as Ser Loras was a cheat, Jamie's assessment of him is baseless and ignorant. Ser Dunk the Lunk isn't a good example either lol as Mance Rayder is nothing like Dunk the Lunk how ever good of heart and strong he was. Neither of those is really good examples.

Mance Rayder is smart and cunning and even Tormund says that's a huge reason every one is following him, he was trained in the ways of the south and will teach them to fight like them. Even Qhorin makes the same assessment of Mance. 

Mance who can ride a horse im sure pretty well, at least well enough to compete. Further, Mance is such an awesome fighter, and strong, that he beats Jon Snow who trains against three men at once just to get a challenge. Mance is no ordinary guy and clearly more than capable. 

[AlaskanSandman]

14 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Mance told Jon that Benjen had never met him. So Mance was not at the tourney.

Mane and Benjen directly meeting would have nothing to do with Harrenhal. Mance could have easily have been there and the two never have met. That proves little and less