Jon, Mance’s Blue Rose, and the Dayne Heiress. (Updated 1/15)

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

It's certainly no more than what is assumed all the time re: KotLT being Lyanna Stark.     Just in terms of physical possibility I'd be inclined to lean more toward a fully-grown man of the Watch who's been living a hard life of patrolling and training at the Wall for some period of time vs. a 14yo girl who, like Arya (as King Bob pointed out), may have been  "the size of a wet rat", and had to practice her skills in secret with tourney swords and her little brother.    But, how many hundreds of people lend great probability to the latter every day here?  

I dunno, it's not my theory so I'm not invested in it...just commenting that it's disingenuous to disregard it based on that.

At what point does Lyanna's weight become so great that the horse collapses underneath her?

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Mance knows how to ride a horse. 

Now he's just got to be strong enough to carry a lance, and good enough of an aim to plant it in some ones chest. Im pretty sure some one can chance into beating a bunch of no body knights that don't even get a mention of being good knights. Not a very compelling argument.

Ah, wonderful. Why train at all when all you need is being able to ride and hold a lance. Have you ever tried to hit something with like a two-metre pole while riding at a gallop? You're talking nonsense.

Plus, the bolded is incorrect - they were the champions of the first and second day, so they possessed some skill.

 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And so what Elia Sand practices too. Is she now the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna also? or was there some other thing you were trying to get at?

I asked what narrative purpose you think there might be to giving Elia such a particular hobby. What exactly is there that you don't understand?

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

To ride a horse down a straight line? i think your making a little much of the horse riding abilities needed to Joust lol they're not show ponies doing tricks. Mance can ride a horse, im pretty sure Mance can ride it in a straight line too. But idk, maybe im assuming to much lol

Yes, you are. You know nothing.

 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

and given as Ser Loras was a cheat, Jamie's assessment of him is baseless and ignorant.

Yet another nonsense argument. Loras cheated exactly once, against a guy who "cheated" every single time due to his monstrous height and strength. Do you think that Loras was the cheating all the time, against every single person he defeated, and nobody noticed?

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ser Dunk the Lunk isn't a good example either lol as Mance Rayder is nothing like Dunk the Lunk how ever good of heart and strong he was. Neither of those is really good examples.

 

What is not a good example, showing that you need some skill to be a good jouster? Don't be ridiculous.

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yes it is possible and probable whether you agree with it or not. To argue against such just makes your credibility and biased opinion hard to get past. 

The probability is extremely small and unlikely. How many men in the NW at this time? Maybe 400-500? That gives Mance a 1/500 probability. Extremely low. To compare the chances of it being Mance as the same as Lyanna is silly. Lyanna was there. We have no reason to believe Mance was there.

The brother at the tourney is there as a possibility that he influenced Benjen to join the NW. I'm not saying this is why Benjen joined, but that George is planting a seed which he can use later if he chooses. There is no reason to believe it is Mance. 

How does using facts from the books take away from my credibility? What is biased about stating a fact from the books? 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Mane and Benjen directly meeting would have nothing to do with Harrenhal. Mance could have easily have been there and the two never have met. That proves little and less

Mance never says they didn't met. He says, "Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well."

This means Mance has never seen Benjen. This would include the Harrenhal tourney.

I don't understand how you can just toss this quote out as "little and less" yet easily accept that a brother of the NW being mentioned at the tourney is probably Mance.

And wouldn't this be a great time for Mance to reveal to Jon that he was also at the Harrenhal Tourney if he was there? He's letting Jon know that he has been to WF, why not tell him about everywhere he's been south of the wall? 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I dunno, it's not my theory so I'm not invested in it...just commenting that it's disingenuous to disregard it based on that.

I understand that you don't actually think Mance was the KotLT and that you are sort of playing devil's advocate here.

However, this is a card in the card stacking hypothesis which is being claimed. Another card being that we don't even know Mance was there, while Lyanna was there for sure. Another card being that Mance specifically says Benjen has never seen him, nor Mance Benjen. Another card being why would Mance joust as the KotLT even if he was there, while Lyanna has a logical reason to joust.

The fact is we have nothing to support Mance as a jouster or exceptional horseman, yet this hypothesis is claiming he is the KotLT. Sure, it is not impossible he is a good jouster, but there is nothing indicating that he is. Meanwhile, we have many quotes of how talented a rider Lyanna is, and George seems to be forcing this centaur idea down our throats. Plus Jaime's 3/4 horseman as a good jouster idea all seem to indicate that Lyanna could hold her own. 

Mance as the KotLT? The cards don't hold up. 

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I understand that you don't actually think Mance was the KotLT and that you are sort of playing devil's advocate here.

However, this is a card in the card stacking hypothesis which is being claimed. Another card being that we don't even know Mance was there, while Lyanna was there for sure. Another card being that Mance specifically says Benjen has never seen him, nor Mance Benjen. Another card being why would Mance joust as the KotLT even if he was there, while Lyanna has a logical reason to joust.

The fact is we have nothing to support Mance as a jouster or exceptional horseman, yet this hypothesis is claiming he is the KotLT. Sure, it is not impossible he is a good jouster, but there is nothing indicating that he is. Meanwhile, we have many quotes of how talented a rider Lyanna is, and George seems to be forcing this centaur idea down our throats. Plus Jaime's 3/4 horseman as a good jouster idea all seem to indicate that Lyanna could hold her own. 

Mance as the KotLT? The cards don't hold up. 

Ive already said repeatedly and tried to divert this to the appropriate thread but honestly have just given up and dont care any more. Hence why im no longer replying to any of this stupid argument. Mance could have been there. Period. I really dont care any one's opinion on that any more, it has a likely hood, period. Whether he was the KotLt is not really the point in the other thread either. It's to figure out what was happening as certain pieces still dont add up. 

But every one here is the smartest person in the world and has it all figured out and see everything just so clearly. That's why no one here actually has an answer for anything other that just parroting the few things they've read so far and what the stupid show has gone with. Any deeper thinking seems to be dead imo and id be better off posting a hypothetical what if so and so didnt die, or what if this happened instead of this yada yada. Forgive me if im disinterested in these lines of thought or the line of thought that all questioning to find answers is bad. Sadly often or not, the cool people tend to be the quiet ones just taking everything in. Most every one else just wants to pop in and bash which is what ever, just like i said, some come here for questions and answers, not to just pop into threads they already know they disagree with and just start arguments. Im not bored looking for conversation for conversations sake, i have friends for that. Again, just here seeking answers by asking questions.

Which means im cool to disagreement long as your still trying to be productive is all. Else wise its a waste of my time. 

4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Maybe 400-500? That gives Mance a 1/500 probability.

Exp is something like this. Pulling teeth to get a simple fact admitted. And no, it's a third of that. Remember their are 3 groups and stewards and builders aren't likely recruiting people. Yoren strikes me as a ranger. So there is a 1/175 chance roughly. Which still gives him the chance, period. 

But yall dont come at it from a reasonable stand point, though admittedly your better than a few on here and with out all the attitude like your cheerios just got peed in. If you came at it from a reasonable stand point of though there is a chance, i disagree. That'd be different. Instead you still come at it like your just dead right cause you already have all the answers and know the ending. So why bother questioning are helping some one else ponder, im just gonna go try and shut it down. 

Savy?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I really dont care any one's opinion on that any more, it has a likely hood, period.

Interesting. 

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That's why no one here actually has an answer for anything other that just parroting the few things they've read so far and what the stupid show has gone with.

You don't need to bring that into the conversation. 

 

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Any deeper thinking seems to be dead imo and id be better off posting a hypothetical what if so and so didnt die, or what if this happened instead of this yada yada.

There is a big difference between deeper thinking and making up your own story, and it's not too cool to insinuate that others are not capable of deeper thinking.

 

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Forgive me if im disinterested in these lines of thought or the line of thought that all questioning to find answers is bad.

I have never said that it is bad. 

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Sadly often or not, the cool people tend to be the quiet ones just taking everything in.

I'm sorry, the cool people?

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Most every one else just wants to pop in and bash which is what ever, just like i said, some come here for questions and answers, not to just pop into threads they already know they disagree with and just start arguments.

Why is it 'bashing' to state an opinion on the subject at hand? I came in and learned some new things. Who is arguing? I'm discussing.

 

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, just here seeking answers by asking questions.

Then why dismiss other people's ideas?

 

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Which means im cool to disagreement long as your still trying to be productive is all.

What is it that you are trying to produce?

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Exp is something like this.

I don't know what this means.

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Pulling teeth to get a simple fact admitted.

What simple fact are you trying to get admitted, specifically?

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

stewards and builders aren't likely recruiting people.

Where does it say this?

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yoren strikes me as a ranger.

Where does this idea come from? I don't recall learning what he was before recruiting. I'd love to learn though! 

I do recall, if I am remembering correctly, Yoren saying he's been recruiting for 30 years. This gives him a pretty good shot at being the brother at Harrenhal. I don't recall Mance ever being mentioned as a recruiter. 

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So there is a 1/175 chance roughly. Which still gives him the chance, period. 

I'd say the odds are worse than that, but there is no way to say for sure.

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But yall dont come at it from a reasonable stand point, though admittedly your better than a few on here and with out all the attitude like your cheerios just got peed in.

I don't follow. Are you saying it is unreasonable for me to have different ideas and point out why I believe the text supports these ideas?

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Instead you still come at it like your just dead right cause you already have all the answers and know the ending.

I don't have all the answers or know the ending. I just know the KotLT being Mance would not do anything for the story and is not supported by the text.

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So why bother questioning are helping some one else ponder, im just gonna go try and shut it down. 

Because I like learning new things about the books. Plus, you never know, someone else reading thsee posts may learn something new as well. For example, from researching whether or not Mance could be the KotLT I learned that Mance had never seen Benjen prior to the Winterfell feast. This was new to me and others too.

44 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Savy?

I don't know what savy means. 

[AlaskanSandman]

13 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Interesting. 

You don't need to bring that into the conversation. 

 

There is a big difference between deeper thinking and making up your own story, and it's not too cool to insinuate that others are not capable of deeper thinking.

 

I have never said that it is bad. 

I'm sorry, the cool people?

Why is it 'bashing' to state an opinion on the subject at hand? I came in and learned some new things. Who is arguing? I'm discussing.

 

Then why dismiss other people's ideas?

 

What is it that you are trying to produce?

I don't know what this means.

What simple fact are you trying to get admitted, specifically?

Where does it say this?

Where does this idea come from? I don't recall learning what he was before recruiting. I'd love to learn though! 

I do recall, if I am remembering correctly, Yoren saying he's been recruiting for 30 years. This gives him a pretty good shot at being the brother at Harrenhal. I don't recall Mance ever being mentioned as a recruiter. 

I'd say the odds are worse than that, but there is no way to say for sure.

I don't follow. Are you saying it is unreasonable for me to have different ideas and point out why I believe the text supports these ideas?

I don't have all the answers or know the ending. I just know the KotLT being Mance would not do anything for the story and is not supported by the text.

Because I like learning new things about the books. Plus, you never know, someone else reading thsee posts may learn something new as well. For example, from researching whether or not Mance could be the KotLT I learned that Mance had never seen Benjen prior to the Winterfell feast. This was new to me and others too.

I don't know what savy means. 

Dont make too much of it lol I know people still learn things, thats why i just keep chugging along sometimes. It's not so much the disagreement here either, other wise i wouldn't try to direct it to the right thread. Im not dead set on Mance, so i dont feel like arguing for or against, but rather trying to just hash out the different options and non options. To which Mance has some non options but some possible ones. The scope of which though should be better judged not on it's own but in junction with the other similar arch's like Rhaegars or Bael or Jon. Like, GRRM is hiding plot points possibly in narratives in the current story or vice versa. 

Again, dont make much of it. I even stated you in particular at least have a better approach and attitude about it. Face it, you do lol not every body is humble enough to even admit possibilities where possibilities may lie. But another Exp. (Example) is maybe Yoren has been for the last 30. So maybe he was at Harrenhal, maybe he knows something then. That kind of exploitative thought leads to more than just NO NO NO. And yes im allowed to be offended by some of the responses if i want. At least i didnt' report one of them and dont get petty about it. I just generally try to take another approach and tackle it from another angle as i must be coming at it from the wrong way. But say there is only 3 groups we're told of, and some how Yoren is a recruit for 30 years. Then what does it even take to become a Recruiter? Why is no one made a recruiter on the new watch members? Specially after the death of Yoren? I know they send Allister to K.L. with the hand isn't Allister a ranger too? You know, more questions to find more answers. 

Savy? (Get it? Understand? We cool?) 

Quote

 

sav·vy

ˈsavē/

verb

 

1. 1.

   know or understand.

   "Charley would savvy what to do about such a girl"

 

1.  

[AlaskanSandman]

13 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

Another way of looking at things and comparing that gives me pause for instance is Maris the Maid and Uthor Hightower in the First Tourney ever.

             Uthor Hightower======= Maris the Maid         vs Argoth Stoneskin             in first Tourney of Westeros

  Steals the Maid  ?                                                   Crowns the maid with rose?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

           Peter Baelish ==========Sansa the Maid     vs          Loras Tyrell                    In Hands Tourney

     Steals Maid                              infatuated with Loras           Gives Maid Rose                          

                                                      engaged to Joffery         Gay not actually into her

                                                                                                Cheats to win

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      __________?? =============Lyanna the maid       vs        Rhaegar Targaryen          Tourney of Harrenhal

Steals the Maid                         Infatuated with Rhaegar              Crowns the maid             

                                                          Engaged to Robert.

 

So something doesn't add up when you compare.       

 

Edit- the person doing the stealing may not be competing in the Tourney.

 

                                              

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Dont make too much of it lol

What do you feel I am I making too much of?

10 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The scope of which though should be better judged not on it's own but in junction with the other similar arch's like Rhaegars or Bael or Jon. Like, GRRM is hiding plot points possibly in narratives in the current story or vice versa. 

That's fine, but we shouldn't force it when it doesn't fit, right? Especially if the text directly contradicts the proposed idea.

12 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, dont make much of it.

Don't make much of what?

13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I even stated you in particular at least have a better approach and attitude about it.

About what?

13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Face it, you do lol not every body is humble enough to even admit possibilities where possibilities may lie.

For the record, I do not giving Mance as the KotLT any possibility. 

16 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yes im allowed to be offended by some of the responses if i want. At least i didnt' report one of them and dont get petty about it.

I don't understand where you are going with this.

18 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But say there is only 3 groups we're told of, and some how Yoren is a recruit for 30 years. Then what does it even take to become a Recruiter? Why is no one made a recruiter on the new watch members? Specially after the death of Yoren?

These are good questions and could make for a nice discussion.

19 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Savy? (Get it? Understand? We cool?) 

Okay. You mean savvy. I didn't put that together the first time. I was reading it as Say-Vee and had no idea what that could mean.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

15 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

What do you feel I am I making too much of?

That's fine, but we shouldn't force it when it doesn't fit, right? Especially if the text directly contradicts the proposed idea.

Don't make much of what?

About what?

For the record, I do not giving Mance as the KotLT any possibility. 

I don't understand where you are going with this.

These are good questions and could make for a nice discussion.

Okay. You mean savvy. I didn't put that together the first time. I was reading it as Say-Vee and had no idea what that could mean.

 

Omg lol dont make more of it than it is lol its not complicated. 

Look at the other comment and you may see why i may suspect Rhaegar of having not stolen Lyanna.  Unless you wanna talk about the tv adaptation, the books aren't done. We can go to that thread though if you wanna use that as concrete evidence, other wise, its an open discussion really. 

And no i didn't say you were that reasonable lol but you at least admitted to some chance of him being there.

Those are good questions that could be asked and looked at here, instead of the other just no no no's lol but that was just an example. 

Did the missing v throw you? haha

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

28 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

dont make more of it than it is lol its not complicated. 

I still have no idea what you think I am "making more of it than it is". How can I make more of something when I don't even know what 'it' is? 

31 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Look at the other comment and you may see why i may suspect Rhaegar of having not stolen Lyanna. 

I'm not sure what this has to do with the Mance topic.

31 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Unless you wanna talk about the tv adaptation, the books aren't done.

No, I don't want to talk about that which shouldn't be talked about. Where is this coming from?

33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And no i didn't say you were that reasonable lol but you at least admitted to some chance of him being there.

No. I give him 0 chance of being there. Mance directly says Benjen has never seen him, nor him Benjen. That probability equation was to show the unlikelihood of 'a brother' being Mance if we didn't already know Benjen has never seen Mance, nor Mance Benjen. 

 

41 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Did the missing v throw you? haha

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I still have no idea what you think I am "making more of it than it is". How can I make more of something when I don't even know what 'it' is? 

I'm not sure what this has to do with the Mance topic.

No, I don't want to talk about that which shouldn't be talked about. Where is this coming from?

No. I give him 0 chance of being there. Mance directly says Benjen has never seen him, nor him Benjen. That probability equation was to show the unlikelihood of 'a brother' being Mance if we didn't already know Benjen has never seen Mance, nor Mance Benjen. 

 

 

The fact you keep circling around that is exactly what im talking about making more of it

Then im not even gonna try and explain lol shouldn't be that hard to see and your now just reverting backwards

It's an advance due to every one acting like that solidifies things in the books. 

Yea no. It's a big Tourney and he he says Benjen doesnt know him by face so he felt safe at Winterfell. Ive worked with people and gone to school with people i never paid attention to and couldnt recall their face either. That hardly proves anything but keep banging your drum mate

and totally sorry to throw you lmao

[Bael's Bastard]

We are explicitly told that Dareon was made a recruiter to take the place of Yoren, who had gone missing and was presumed dead. 

Quote

Even Dareon would be happier. He had always claimed to be innocent of the rape that sent him to the Wall, insisting that he belonged at some lord's court, singing for his supper. Now he would have that chance. Jon had named him a recruiter, to take the place of a man named Yoren, who had vanished and was presumed dead. His task would be to travel the Seven Kingdoms, singing of the valor of the Night's Watch, and from time to time returning to the Wall with new recruits. - A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

This is just another of the many examples in these crackpot threads that demonstrate what happens when people are more interested in coming up with their own story with no basis or support in the books, than are interested in reading what GRRM actually wrote.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea no. It's a big Tourney and he he says Benjen doesnt know him by face so he felt safe at Winterfell. Ive worked with people and gone to school with people i never paid attention to and couldnt recall their face either. That hardly proves anything but keep banging your drum mate

The text: 

Quote

Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode."

But if Mance was the recruiter, Benjen would have known him by sight. 

Quote

The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch.

Benjen was there. He heard the recruiter speak. When Mance says, "Your uncle did not know me by sight" he is referencing that Benjen knows who Mance is, just not what he looks like. He knows Mance is the King Beyond the Wall. He just does not know what he looks like, something which would be untrue if Mance was the recruiter. 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The text: 

But if Mance was the recruiter, Benjen would have known him by sight. 

Benjen was there. He heard the recruiter speak. When Mance says, "Your uncle did not know me by sight" he is referencing that Benjen knows who Mance is, just not what he looks like. He knows Mance is the King Beyond the Wall. He just does not know what he looks like, something which would be untrue if Mance was the recruiter. 

This is true and a good point, but dont forget that Robert was near unrecognizable to Eddard under less time as Eddard saw Robert last at the Greyjoy Rebellion. 

People change over time and you would need to get the measure of some one again after that long.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

6 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is true and a good point, but dont forget that Robert was near unrecognizable to Eddard under less time as Eddard saw Robert last at the Greyjoy Rebellion. 

This is not the same. This is George explaining how different Robert is/looks since the Rebellion. And it's not as if Ned doesn't know it is Robert, which is what Mance s saying. 

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

People change over time and you would need to get the measure of some one again after that long.

I agree with the measure of someone thing. But Mance also says Benjen does not know him by sight. Benjen was there when the recruiter spoke. He would know the recruiter by sight.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

This is not the same. This is George explaining how different Robert is/looks since the Rebellion. And it's not as if Ned doesn't know it is Robert, which is what Mance s saying. 

I agree with the measure of someone thing. But Mance also says Benjen does not know him by sight. Benjen was there when the recruiter spoke. He would know the recruiter by sight.

Possibly if this is when Benjen spoke with recruiters about going North. Though we dont know for sure when Benjen spoke to recruiters if he did at all (Jon didn't) and we dont know when Benjen went to the wall exactly. He was the Stark in Winterfell during Roberts Rebellion so there is no reason to think he was talking to recruiters and joining the watch prior to the war. Itd be after the war and what ever recruiter was at Harrenhal near 3 years prior.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

This is not the same. This is George explaining how different Robert is/looks since the Rebellion. And it's not as if Ned doesn't know it is Robert, which is what Mance s saying. 

I agree with the measure of someone thing. But Mance also says Benjen does not know him by sight. Benjen was there when the recruiter spoke. He would know the recruiter by sight.

Plus, as Jon was 5 when Mance came to Winterfell while still in the Watch under L.C. Qhorgyle, it stands to reason that Benjen didn't join the Watch until sometime after Jon was already 5. Other wise Benjen would indeed know who Mance was as a brother in the watch.

[AlaskanSandman]

I didn't expect the idea of Mance even being at the Tourney to be so contested or this thread to keep going so ill try to re-edit the OP to add these points about Mance and his service, his horse riding abilities as ranger beyond the wall, his ability to already attack from a horse, and when Benjen actually likely joined the watch as it was not any where near the time of Harrenhal, but rather likely 5 years or more after Roberts Rebellion.