Jump to content
AlaskanSandman

Jon, Mance’s Blue Rose, and the Dayne Heiress. (Updated 1/15)

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He fancies himself after Bael the bard. The song is something known all over the 7 kingdoms. just because he sings a song in no way means he traveled below the neck. Especially because he speaks of meeting Jon and Robb in winterfell as children, and he was still in the watch. There would be no reason for him to desert his post and  travel south. That is the gaping hole in the theory and why it is wrong. Besides, we know who Jon's parents are at this point 

The whole reason he left the watch you mean? Over an unknown woman. Who repaired his cloak. Mormont further has only served for 8 years. Meaning Mance would have still been under Qorgyle. Why else all the nods to the Dornishman's wife, Bael the Bard and a rare blue winter rose that some how pops up in the south for a Tourney. 

I know i went with R+L=J but it is an interesting set of clues that is hard to ignore. It would also make Jon pure Ice, and Dany pure Fire. Their child would thus be the union of Ice and Fire. So that part makes sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Dornish wine probably not difficult at all.  There is a ton of trade going on between wildings, NW brothers, and trading ships from the free cities.  Can't imagine it would be too difficult for a Lyseni or Braavosi ship to get a hold of Dornish wine.

Dornishman's wife?  That may be more difficult to come by in the North :P, but I also don't take that literally but rather symbolically.

I did too at first but after going through and specially all the times it's said. 

Mance to Jon twice when they first meet,

Jon to Mance during battle (Bael and his son fought)

Mance mentioning not attacking in full force due to blood (Bael not fighting his son) 

and a few other got me thinking it was symbolic cause its them. But totally speculating here :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

 

Seriously? This so wildly disingenuous as to be able to disregard anything else in this fan-fiction.

I dont see how but ok lol more of that "Fan fiction" babble people talk about when they dont like speculating lol anything more thoughtful than that at least? 

It was merely one of many possible subtle nods from GRRM. linking Mance and the blue rose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, divica said:

He says it it in a conversation with mel

And I don t support the theory. Just that mance might have traveled more than what we know.

Some days ago there was a conversation about mance being a recruiter for the NW for a while for example... Don t Forget that a normal NW brother wouldn t learn so many songs as mance did if he stayed at the Wall and ocasionally traveled to winterfell...

Exactly. Im trying to keep my mind open and consider things talked about based on clues in the books and seemingly missing pieces or associations

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Reads more like a poetic license, though. 

***I've sung, fought, drunk & f*ck'd all over the continent.

Could very well be. 

I've seen some linking Rhaegar to Mance which i think is too far but their definitely does seem to be similarities

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, divica said:

exactly! And from his story he is suposed to only have lived in the Wall and beyond the wall

Visited and lived are still a little different though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Why? Watchmen come from all over the kingdoms. They would bring songs they like to the watch and since there is no TV and most watchmen can't read, so drinking wine and singing songs are literally the only entertainment in winter, unless the guys started to have sex with each other, and that does not seem the case in the books 

Lol well you do have a point on the singers as Sam travels with one from the Watch to Braavos. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

:thumbsup: Don't pay any attention to the rest of the post because I am being :commie:

I can understand the mystery behind Mance. I have my own tinfoil and questions.

Considering Mance, as a child was taken in by the NW after a group of wildlings had been killed ---

Let’s say Mance displayed leadership potential as he aged. Let’s say he was being groomed to be a ranger. Let’s say that in that grooming process he was taught to read & write. That is a lot of let’s say.

How old does a person think that Mance is? He was supposedly raised at the Wall. I don’t know how old Mance was when he deserted.

Well Eddard was in his 30's when we saw him and around 16ish or something during Roberts Rebellion. Mance has more grey hairs than Eddard so at least a little older than Eddard but possibly of an age with him. I have friends with that much grey at that age. Mance also didn't abondon till after he saw Jon when he was 5 which was 288, the last couple years of Qorgyles command. So if he traveled south, it was as a brother in black for recruiting. Maybe he left after seeing Jon at Winterfell and realizing he had a child.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Mance went all the way to Dorne and seduced Mellario of Norvos. Which is the real reason she left Dorne and never came back.

Doran will get around to getting vengence on him as well. However for now he'll pretend he's a blood orange like he does with the rest of his enemies when he crushes them.

Also forgot to add that Trystane is in fact Mance's son. Which is why Doran agreed to marry him to the grandchild of his enemy who is likely the product of incest.

Hahaha never heard this take before. Got more i can read?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may have been the deal between Rhaegar and Mance that if Mance competed for Rhaegar, he would get men for the Watch? 

It is interesting to think of Mance as the Knight of the Laughing tree, as the Nights watch are allowed to win no glory and bear no children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't Yoren come late in the year 298 early 299? Is December or winter the normal times to come south and ask for men? 

Harrenhal did possibly happen in Dec of 281Ac. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Has mance ever been below the neck? Not speculatively,  but in book? 

More speculation but there is this that i noticed

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII

Even when Ghost's teeth closed savagely around the ranger's calf, somehow Qhorin kept his feet. But in that instant, as he twisted, the opening was there. Jon planted and pivoted. The ranger was leaning away, and for an instant it seemed that Jon's slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man's throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.

Ghost's muzzle was dripping red, but only the point of the bastard blade was stained, the last half inch. Jon pulled the direwolf away and knelt with one arm around him. The light was already fading in Qhorin's eyes. ". . . sharp," he said, lifting his maimed fingers. Then his hand fell, and he was gone.

Did Qhorin loose his hand to Valyrian steel? This almost seems like he's telling Jon that he knows how sharp it is by showing him how, his hand. 

So if he did actually loose it to Valyrian steel, then how? 

If he was south with Mance then it could explain how.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well this is all new and speculative but its line to Melisandre about having drank summer wine and tasted the Dornishman's wife seemed like him saying he had, though i know this all is loose maybe. It all just kind of came to me the other night talking to @LynnS about Harrenhal and after just doing a thread on Bael. The quotes above that i used i think help show some of this idea, as when he first meets Jon even, despite having finished the song, repeats that last  part to Jon. Plus all the 13 nods in the other thread pointing to certain things connecting Jon and possibly the original Bael and to Jaehaery's time. All of which i think is Matin's way of calling attention to these events and people. 

So it's not out right stated that he has ever been south, it would make sense.

For this to work it would have to state outright that mance went south of the neck. Everything else in this theory is based on that. A song lyric does not cut it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lol well you do have a point on the singers as Sam travels with one from the Watch to Braavos. 

I mean, sailors have shantys, soldiers have marching songs. More than just professional singers have the ability to sing songs well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Did Qhorin loose his hand to Valyrian steel? This almost seems like he's telling Jon that he knows how sharp it is by showing him how, his hand. 

Probably not. He had his hand cut off by a wildling weapon.They have piss poor steel and mostly bronze weapons. Something like valyrian steel would be remarkable, especially to someone who has already been cut by a rougher weapon 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The whole reason he left the watch you mean? Over an unknown woman. Who repaired his cloak. Mormont further has only served for 8 years. Meaning Mance would have still been under Qorgyle. Why else all the nods to the Dornishman's wife, Bael the Bard and a rare blue winter rose that some how pops up in the south for a Tourney. 

The problem is that it doesn't pop up. At all. Ever. Mance was still in the watch when robb and jon were old enough to meet guests in their dad's castle when he went to winterfell with the LC. People would notice if he deserted for long enough to attend a tourney in the riverlands. The price for desertion is death. A deserter would not be accompanying the LC on a journey to the castle of the lord paramount of the north and the best friend ot the watch.  There is literally no way around that. His love for Bael the Bard is foreshadowing of his entering winterfell on behalf of Jon. It is simple as that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Probably not. He had his hand cut off by a wildling weapon.They have piss poor steel and mostly bronze weapons. Something like valyrian steel would be remarkable, especially to someone who has already been cut by a rougher weapon 

But why hold your hand up? and say sharp when your throat was just cut?

and yea i dont need it flat out stated that Mance went south. That's right up there with the likely hood that Rhaegar and Ashara spoke. There is a high chance really. It was never flat out stated that Roose would murder Robb, yet still it happened. So any body who theorized that before it happened (Since there was clues) wasn't wrong to wonder. Now if i write a book about it or a story after we find out for sure that it's not the case, then it's fan fiction, for now it's just speculation. Though i do think it's intriguing thought, and not near as far fetched as Qhorin and Mance actually being some body important from the past (Rhaegar, Gerold, Arthur, or Oswell). Plus he is still alive and some how still important to the story.

Mance was a brother to Qhorin and the watch do come south for men. Further the timing of Yoren coming south and the timing of Harrenhal are roughly the same, which may imply when they come seeking men. 

Plus Alliser Thorne has been on the wall since 283 when the war was lost. So he knew Mance also for at least 5 years (time Mance saw Jon in Winterfell first). So Alliser Thorne not trusting Jon that the Half Hand asked him to turn to the side of Mance would make sense if Alliser knew Mance went south and knew that Rhaegar wasn't the one who took Lyanna. Since Alliser was on the Targaryen side.

Plus, given the possibility that Lyanna was the one to repair his cape, would mean they knew each other prior to Harrenhal. 

As opposed to say Rhaegar and Lyanna who just met. Would Rhaegar or Lyanna be so rash as to run off with some one they just met and barely if at all interacted with (Only interacted if she is Knight of Laughing Tree, and the one moment he gave her the crown). Even if Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, how much time could they have had together before Rhaegar had to get back to his father and the Tourney so it could continue? Rhaegar who ended up some how beating Barristan who had already bested Rhaegar at Storm's End. It even confuses Barristan the Bold. 

Idk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The problem is that it doesn't pop up. At all. Ever. Mance was still in the watch when robb and jon were old enough to meet guests in their dad's castle when he went to winterfell with the LC. People would notice if he deserted for long enough to attend a tourney in the riverlands. The price for desertion is death. A deserter would not be accompanying the LC on a journey to the castle of the lord paramount of the north and the best friend ot the watch.  There is literally no way around that. His love for Bael the Bard is foreshadowing of his entering winterfell on behalf of Jon. It is simple as that.

Well idk, how long did Tyrion make Alliser Thorne wait in K.L.? A fort night at least seems about right at least as the hand had completely rotted that Alliser had brought with him. 

No one killed Alliser of claimed he had deserted. That's a rather long road with many unexpected interruptions id imagine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive always just excepted Rhaegar was Jon's father based simply on the fact that if they were locked in a Tower, there would be a child possibly. Jon seemed the only person of questioned parentage at the time so it seemed quite logical. Ned is too honorable and i still think he is. 

Though the more i look into it the more it doesn't seem to add up right. 

Lets assume im wrong about Daenerys being the child of Rhaegar and Ashara and is actually the child of Aerys and Rhaella. Either way, she is still a child of fire.

The story has always seemed to be about Dany either fighting Jon, or hooking up with Jon. It's either one or the other. And this makes sense, since Dany is Fire. This would mean Jon is Ice. Ice and Fire. 

Yet, if Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he is the child of Ice and Fire. And there is no parralel to Dany really, not at all. Other than Jon has a little fire in him and Dany is full fire.

So them fighting or hooking up isn't really Ice and Fire. 

Ice and Fire coming together should be the child of Jon and Daenerys. The Stallion who mounts the world.

Jon is only Ice by any theory i have ever seen, if he is the child of Mance and Lyanna.

Not Eddard and Ashara, Rhaegar and Lyanna, Brandon and Ashara, or any other one ive seen.

This is literally the only way he is pure Ice as Daenerys is pure fire.

Period. It would seem

 

Edit- Further this would put both Jon and Daenerys' parents at the center of their story arch and pop up in  each of them. Mance in Jons (never Rhaegar), and Rhaegar in Daenerys (Mentions Rhaegar alot and Aerys only a couple times)

Edited by AlaskanSandman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Promise me Ned would still include Mance and having to hide Jon also, as, as a Black Brother, Mance is not allowed to have kids (Jon) and win no glory (Knight of Laughing Tree), so it would mean the death of Mance who served for another 5 years before getting to go south again, where he went to Winterfell and saw Jon. Deserting sometime after.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×