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AlaskanSandman

Jon, Mance’s Blue Rose, and the Dayne Heiress. (Updated 1/15)

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The Knight of the Laughing Tree was of short stature. Mance is of middling height. They are two different people.

You're not the first to propose M+L but I have seen better attempts, which at least were not in contradiction with known facts. However, they all had one thing in common with yours - zero text hints that M+L ever happened, as they all draw on parallels and things not stated one way or the other.

Edited by Ygrain

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2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

dany-jon-bael-and-a-blue-rose-who/

Any further conversations can be moved over here. Where you can express what ever opinion you have :D I leave parentage open and explain the set up and everything first. Or may care to see my other page first, as it may change your opinion of what is happening. May or may not. 

the-reason-we-dance-to-rhaenyra-and-daemon/

 

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33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

dany-jon-bael-and-a-blue-rose-who/

Any further conversations can be moved over here. Where you can express what ever opinion you have :D I leave parentage open and explain the set up and everything first. Or may care to see my other page first, as it may change your opinion of what is happening. May or may not. 

the-reason-we-dance-to-rhaenyra-and-daemon/

Sorry, I don't have the time to page through other threads or adress your theory in entirety. I've just posted a single, easily checked fact, concerning a profound height difference. Care to adress that?

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10 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Sorry, I don't have the time to page through other threads or adress your theory in entirety. I've just posted a single, easily checked fact, concerning a profound height difference. Care to adress that?

Profound height difference?  I think you're overstating the 'fact' Ygraine.  Mance was middling in height, so not a tall or large man.  The KotLT was a small man compared to whom?  His opponents?   

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54 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The Knight of the Laughing Tree was of short stature. Mance is of middling height. They are two different people.

You're not the first to propose M+L but I have seen better attempts, which at least were not in contradiction with known facts. However, they all had one thing in common with yours - zero text hints that M+L ever happened, as they all draw on parallels and things not stated one way or the other.

This is quite arrogant Ygraine.  Need I remind you that there are no facts in the text about RLJ?  Let's not put people down for having a different opinion or having some fun on the forum.  

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2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Sorry, I don't have the time to page through other threads or adress your theory in entirety. I've just posted a single, easily checked fact, concerning a profound height difference. Care to adress that?

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"The Shadow Tower will never again seem as fearsome," the king said with sadness in his voice. "Qhorin was my enemy. But also my brother, once. So . . . shall I thank you for killing him, Jon Snow? Or curse you?" He gave Jon a mocking smile.
The King-beyond-the-Wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey. There was no crown on his head, no gold rings on his arms, no jewels at his throat, not even a gleam of silver. He wore wool and leather, and his only garment of note was his ragged black wool cloak, its long tears patched with faded red silk.

 

 
 
You mean back when Mance was likely a teen? Probably around 14 like Jon him self? Of an age with Eddard?
 
Yea im pretty sure he probably grew up since then, most of us do.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Profound height difference?  I think you're overstating the 'fact' Ygraine.  Mance was middling in height, so not a tall or large man.  The KotLT was a small man compared to whom?  His opponents?   

Don't be absurd, Ygraine is absolutely correct. We are told that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was short of stature by the short "woman grown" crannogman Meera Reed, as witnessed and told to her by her short "grown to manhood" crannogman father Howland Reed, who was smaller than all of the fifteen-or-younger squires that bullied him. The Knight of the Laughing Tree was short of stature according to small people that refer to average people as "big people."

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Don't absurd, Ygraine is absolutely correct. We are told that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was short of stature by the short "woman grown" crannogman Meera Reed, as witnessed and told to her by her short "grown to manhood" crannogman father Howland Reed, who was smaller than all of the fifteen-or-younger squires that bullied him. The Knight of the Laughing Tree was short of stature according to small people that refer to average people as "big people."

So it makes perfect sense for it to be the guy who already got his butt beat by the squires of the knights? ok

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10 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Don't absurd, Ygraine is absolutely correct. We are told that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was short of stature by the short "woman grown" crannogman Meera Reed, as witnessed and told to her by her short "grown to manhood" crannogman father Howland Reed, who was smaller than all of the fifteen-or-younger squires that bullied him. The Knight of the Laughing Tree was short of stature according to small people that refer to average people as "big people."

Listen, you can have your opinion all you want.  What is absurd is the attitude that nobody else's opinion or exploration of the subject matter is worthy of discussion.  That anyone who deviates from RLJ should be subjected to ridicule or that the only thing worth discussing is RLJ.  How boring.

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25 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So it makes perfect sense for it to be the guy who already got his butt beat by the squires of the knights? ok

Are you suggesting that? Because I sure didn't.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Listen, you can have your opinion all you want.  What is absurd is the attitude that nobody else's opinion or exploration of the subject matter is worthy of discussion.  That anyone who deviates from RLJ should be subjected to ridicule or that the only thing worth discussing is RLJ.  How boring.

Nobody has any obligation to humor interpretations or arguments that have absolutely no basis in the text. You are within your right to post such things, however baseless, and others are well within their right to point out how baseless they are.

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11 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Nobody has any obligation to humor interpretations or arguments that have absolutely no basis in the text. You are within your right to post such things, however baseless, and others are well within their right to point out how baseless they are.

Yes, all kinds of baseless things have been posted including assumptions about RLJ. However, there is an obligation for civil discourse. The ability to treat other members with respect is the issue, not whether or not you think something is baseless.

Edited by LynnS

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28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, all kinds of baseless things have been posted including assumptions about RLJ. However, there is an obligation for civil discourse. The ability to treat other members with respect is the issue, not whether or not you think something is baseless.

It is not uncivil or disrespectful to criticize ideas a member puts forth. No need for anyone to take personally someone using information from the books to demonstrate that an idea put forth is not only without supporting information from the books, but is contradictory to information we do have from the books. That is the case here, where our only source for the Knight of the Laughing tree in the main series is a little crannogman relaying the firsthand account of her little crannogman father, who chose to describe TKOTLT as short of stature.

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So it makes perfect sense for it to be the guy who already got his butt beat by the squires of the knights? ok

You mean, that KotLT was Howland, who couldn't even sit a horse? Nah, nobody suggesting that.

 

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
You mean back when Mance was likely a teen? Probably around 14 like Jon him self? Of an age with Eddard?
 
Yea im pretty sure he probably grew up since then, most of us do.

"Likely"? We don't have Mance's age but we know that his hair has gone mostly grey. To my best memory, there is no mention of him seeming prematurely greying. That sets him as middle-aged, and at least Eddard's age at HH. Most people are not notably short at 18 any longer, and if they are, they usually stay that way.  

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It is not uncivil or disrespectful to criticize ideas a member puts forth. No need for anyone to take personally someone using information from the books to demonstrate that an idea put forth is not only without supporting information from the books, but is contradictory to information we do have from the books. That is the case here, where our only source for the Knight of the Laughing tree in the main series is a little crannogman relaying the firsthand account of her little crannogman father, who chose to describe TKOTLT as short of stature.

But that is just the point.  It's not about the criticism, it's about how one goes about it.  I give a lot of leeway to someone who appears to be new to forum or new to the books rather than running them off.  There is a discussion about the events at the tournament and nobody commenting is a slouch.   Nobody has to agree and neither should they enter the room chest first.  There is a quite a bit of disrespect given to other members on this forum.    

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The premise that Howland couldn't sit a horse -- so popular on this site -- really has no canonical foundation.

It's a myth that is contradicted in canon in many different ways.

Where does this myth come from?  The closest we come to such an idea in the text is this:

Quote

The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. 

But this doesn't mean Howland can't sit a horse; it doesn't even mean crannogmen don't ride horses. 

It simply says boats are a more frequently chosen method of transportation for crannogmen than horses.   This is not at all the same concept and very likely stems directly from the fact that crannogmen live in swamps.

Furthermore, we know that it didn't even occur to the Starks that Howland couldn't sit a horse. Because:

Quote

The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. 'I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,' the pup offered.

The concept here, that Howland had the option to joust, would make zero sense if he were unable to sit a horse.

Also, if he couldn't sit a horse, Howland should logically have said, at this point, "Thanks, but I can't sit a horse."  Did he?

Quote

The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn.

It seems he said no such thing.  Furthermore, if he coudn't sit a horse, why would his heart be "torn?"  

That kind of indecision only makes sense if he could, in fact, sit a horse... and was having to decide whether he should try.

What did he decide?  The text never says.  But Meera plainly thinks her father could have tried, and may well have decided to try, because:

Quote

The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one

Again, this would make zero sense if Howland were unable to sit a horse.  Surely Meera knows whether her own father is capable of riding horses.

And finally, the canon tells us that Howland not only could ride a horse, but did, in fact, ride a horse... on a different occasion:

Quote

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed

So based on this overwhelming amount of evidence, I can only guess that anyone who says Howland "couldn't sit a horse" isn't very familiar with the canon, but has only mastered the fanon.

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is quite arrogant Ygraine.  Need I remind you that there are no facts in the text about RLJ?  Let's not put people down for having a different opinion or having some fun on the forum.  

If you think I have overstepped, go ahead and report me. Otherwise, keep your lecturing to yourself. If people want to propose a theory, they should base it on the text, or they will be called out on the lack of support. If they want to have fun with fanfiction, there's fanfiction.net for that, nobody's going to call them out on AU there.

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2 minutes ago, JNR said:

So based on this overwhelming amount of evidence, I can only guess that anyone who says Howland "couldn't sit a horse" isn't very familiar with the canon, but has only mastered the fanon.

Sorry for expecting anyone to be able to figure out a hyperbole. Howland could have been able to use a horse to get from A to B. He just wasn't a very good rider, for lack of opportunity to practice, and he wasn't good enough to joust. Hence, not KotLT.

Besides, Howland's riding skills about two years later don't really attest to anything at the time of HH.

BTW, are Rhaegar and Lyanna at least on the same continent now?

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Sorry for expecting anyone to be able to figure out a hyperbole. Howland could have been able to use a horse to get from A to B. He just wasn't a very good rider, for lack of opportunity to practice, and he wasn't good enough to joust. Hence, not KotLT.

Besides, Howland's riding skills about two years later don't really attest to anything at the time of HH.

BTW, are Rhaegar and Lyanna at least on the same continent now?

Nah Ygrain, no hyperbole there.He clearly thought that he had a chance else he wouldn't have been torn about acting.

However, there is another path that hasn't been considered.

 

"His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more offtent then a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances.

We have what seems to be conflicting elements.Howland being torn does indicate as stated above that he believes he could enact vengence.But I agree, through the process he goes through, he himself looks at his resources and thought he would make a fool of himself.Why? Because -And I agree ;though willing he was at odds with his equipment.

Tadahhhhh!

"If the little crannogman could visit the Isle of Faces, maybe I could too. All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough."

Now, given the bolded how might Howland, who mind you; just had a stint studying on the IOF.

How might some one such as he become a knight ,if only for a day?

Not only is this possible.There is precedent.

P.S. Lyanna is on a continent with a few men who could have gotten in her knickers.

 

Edited by wolfmaid7

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12 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Are you suggesting that? Because I sure didn't.

I thought that's where you were going with it since under what you said, Lyanna would be a tall person and not the knight either. So im lost who you think the knight.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You mean, that KotLT was Howland, who couldn't even sit a horse? Nah, nobody suggesting that.

 

"Likely"? We don't have Mance's age but we know that his hair has gone mostly grey. To my best memory, there is no mention of him seeming prematurely greying. That sets him as middle-aged, and at least Eddard's age at HH. Most people are not notably short at 18 any longer, and if they are, they usually stay that way.  

Yea im just lost as to who is being suggested. And i have friends at 34 who are grey and friends that were short at 18 and grew last at 21. Just saying. 

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