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Jon, Mance’s Blue Rose, and the Dayne Heiress. (Updated 1/15)

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Just now, White Ravens said:

That website isn't working for me.  It can only search a Game of Thrones.  "check all"  "uncheck all" don't work.  I emailed the developer asking if it might have to do with setting on my computer but so far no response.

I use Firefox.  Internet Explorer doesn't seem to work anymore.

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The furthest south we're told Mance travels is Winterfell. Once with Lord Qorgyle when Jon is young, once when king Robert comes to ask Ned to be hand, and again when the Boltons have fArya. Nothing alludes to him being at a tournament below the neck 15+ years ago.

He's not Jons father, he's not a secret Targ or Kingsguard member. He's exactly who we're told he is. 

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13 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I agree, and think you make very good points against the likelihood of this being Mance. We do have Jon naming Dareon the singer a recruiter, but as you noted, Mance was a ranger, and recruiters seem to do just that, recruit. For instance, Yoen has been recruiting for the Night's Watch for nearly thirty years as of ACOK. Much better chance of Yoren, who had already been recruiting for over a decade by the tourney, being the black brother at Harrenhal than Mance.

Besides, at the time when Jon sent Dareon recruiting, the NW was worse understaffed than ever, due to the losses at the Fist etc. Twenty years ago, the recruiter wouldn't be a young boy but a man grown, fully able to adress the might with authority. It might have been Mance, but an adult Mance. Hence, middling height, not short.

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1 minute ago, KingMance said:

He's not Jons father, he's not a secret Targ or Kingsguard member. He's exactly who we're told he is. 

Lol, you should know :D

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10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He is just referring to Jon's sisters rather than Ned's sister.  Be that as it may,  Bael's exploit inspired his own in what way?  How has he lived them?

Yeah, i know he is referring to Jon's sisters...I coudn't remember the text that's why i needed to find it and post it. It on a whole gives insight into Mance in relation to Bael.

As you pointed out,in what way did Bael inspire Mance?To do what exactly? He said a couple of interesting things.Notably, the latter.

"Bael wrote his own songs and sang them."

Mance,according to him only sang the songs better men made.

he didn't do what they did. He is just " Bael-ish"

Edited by wolfmaid7

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1 minute ago, KingMance said:

The furthest south we're told Mance travels is Winterfell. Once with Lord Qorgyle when Jon is young, once when king Robert comes to ask Ned to be hand, and again when the Boltons have fArya. Nothing alludes to him being at a tournament below the neck 15+ years ago.

He's not Jons father, he's not a secret Targ or Kingsguard member. He's exactly who we're told he is. 

Specifically, he is telling Jon when he saw him.  We don't know that he never travelled South of Winterfell before that or that Yoren only travelled on his own when the Watch was stronger in numbers.  LC Qorygyle took a dozen men with him to Winterfell.

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2 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah, i know he is referring to Jon's sisters...I coudn't remember the text that's why i needed to find it and post it. It on a whole gives insight into Mance in relation to Bael.

As you pointed out,in what way did Bael inspire Mance?To do what exactly? He said a couple of interesting things.Notably, the later.

"Bael wrote his own songs and sang them."

Mance,according to him only sang the songs better men made.

he didn't do what they did. He is just " Bael-ish"

Sneaking into Winterfell for the King's feast would be another Bael-ish move.

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13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I use Firefox.  Internet Explorer doesn't seem to work anymore.

Thanks.  I use Firefox too.  I can search on my tiny iPod screen with iOS but my laptop doesn't like the website I  guess. 

 

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19 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

That website isn't working for me.  It can only search a Game of Thrones.  "check all"  "uncheck all" don't work.  I emailed the developer asking if it might have to do with setting on my computer but so far no response.

Are you on your phone? I have similar issues when I use it on my phone.

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Just now, LynnS said:

Sneaking into Winterfell for the King's feast would be another Bael-ish move.

Very true as is doing it again for fArya,but we should keep in mind his words when it comes to how Bael-ish he is.

Clearly,he's got the singing songs,drinking and changing his identity down.That may be what he needs to accomplish his goals.The link between him and Lyanna is still missing for me.Story of the Winter rose and Bael including,there is still that disconnect.Especially,given his statement.

to switch it around we know what he did that made him like Bael.If according to him he just only sang the songs what aspect of Bael's tale is he not claiming.Given the context of his and Jon's conversation he doesn't seem to talking about stepping on another man's lawn if you get my drift.

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14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Sneaking into Winterfell for the King's feast would be another Bael-ish move.

Still weird that Benjen didn’t recognize him though right? Since Mance came to Winterfell with Benjen previously... and they served together.

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1 minute ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Very true as is doing it again for fArya,but we should keep in mind his words when it comes to how Bael-ish he is.

Clearly,he's got the singing songs,drinking and changing his identity down.That may be what he needs to accomplish his goals.The link between him and Lyanna is still missing for me.Story of the Winter rose and Bael including,there is still that disconnect.Especially,given his statement.

to switch it around we know what he did that made him like Bael.If according to him he just only sang the songs what aspect of Bael's tale is he not claiming.Given the context of his and Jon's conversation he doesn't seem to talking about stepping on another man's lawn if you get my drift.

Bael is named as one of the King's Beyond the Wall.  Although he claims he is not.

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16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Specifically, he is telling Jon when he saw him.  We don't know that he never travelled South of Winterfell before that or that Yoren only travelled on his own when the Watch was stronger in numbers.  LC Qorygyle took a dozen men with him to Winterfell.

Fair, we aren't told every location the man has been, but if he was at harrenhal like the OP is suggesting then we would have specifically been told so. Their is zero evidence he and Lyanna ever saw eachother, much less had a secret baby that neither Rhaegar or Bobby B knew about. It doesn't make any sense unless Mance=Rhaegar, which is it's own special sort of crackpot.

24 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Lol, you should know :D

I find the man to be one of the most interesting characters in the books without being a secret dragon daddy :dunno:

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18 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Still weird that Benjen didn’t recognize him though right? Since Mance came to Winterfell with Benjen previously... and they served together.

Yes, exactly. Benjen would have had to go to the Wall before Mance showed up the first time at Winterfell and the I suppose we can assume that Benjen was always at Castle Black and their paths never crossed.  I still find that suspect since Mance is likely to have been at Castle Black at least on occassion and a new face and famous ranger would certainly garner attention.  I'm not sure that Benjen wouldn't recognize him.  It sounds a bit like unreliable narration because I think Mance was really at Winterfell to look at the Stark kids and their direwolves.  Although he brushes that off as insignificant when he speaks to Jon.  Did Mance really need to get a look at Robert and Ned?  Or was he more interested in hearing what Benjen might tell Ned about Mance?  

I think the big question is who is Mance's daddy.  A man of the watch we're told.  I'm not clear if Mance was a foundling or not.  Why was he with a band of raiders and why wasn't he killed?  I think it's possible the ranging took place to retrieve Mance. You'd have to be pretty important to someone. 

Edited by LynnS

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10 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Are you on your phone? I have similar issues when I use it on my phone.

Thanks for the reply.  Opposite for me.  Works on my iPod Touch but not on my Lenovo laptop.

 

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1 minute ago, KingMance said:

Fair, we aren't told every location the man has been, but if he was at harrenhal like the OP is suggesting then we would have specifically been told so. Their is zero evidence he and Lyanna ever saw eachother, much less had a secret baby that neither Rhaegar or Bobby B knew about. It doesn't make any sense unless Mance=Rhaegar, which is it's own special sort of crackpot.

We weren't specifically told about Mance at Robert's feast in GoT either.  I'm just waiting for Martin to drop the other shoe since he is so good at subverting expectations.  Yah, I don't get the Mance=Rhaegar or Blackfyre speculation either.  It boils down to the black cloak with red silk.  That's not enough for me.   I don't subscribe to the notion that Mance is Jon's daddy. But I won't dismiss his presence at the tourney just yet.

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13 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Still weird that Benjen didn’t recognize him though right? Since Mance came to Winterfell with Benjen previously... and they served together.

I suppose he wasn't looking at the Bards too closely. Dim, crowed room, lots of commotion. What Mance essentially says is that Benjen didn't recognize him and that Ned hadn't seen Ned for many years so his chances were good that Ned wouldn't recognize him. 

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37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Specifically, he is telling Jon when he saw him.  We don't know that he never travelled South of Winterfell before that or that Yoren only travelled on his own when the Watch was stronger in numbers.  LC Qorygyle took a dozen men with him to Winterfell.

The furthest south we have Mance going is just south of Winterfell, where he hooked up with Robert's entourage. We don't know that Mance never went to Asshai, but we have no suggestion, hint, or reason to believe that he ever has.

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12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We weren't specifically told about Mance at Robert's feast in GoT either.  I'm just waiting for Martin to drop the other shoe since he is so good at subverting expectations.  Yah, I don't get the Mance=Rhaegar or Blackfyre speculation either.  It boils down to the black cloak with red silk.  That's not enough for me.   I don't subscribe to the notion that Mance is Jon's daddy. But I won't dismiss his presence at the tourney just yet.

I don't think it is impossible that he was at the tourney, but I think very good reasons have been laid out in this thread for us not having any reason to think he was, and certainly not having any reason to think he was TKOTLT.

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9 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't think it is impossible that he was at the tourney, but I think very good reasons have been laid out in this thread for us not having any reason to think he was, and certainly not having any reason to think he was TKOTLT.

Height is a matter of perception.  If you have a smaller man or youth of midling size stacked up against three knights in full battle armor; the one with the worst kit would probably look smaller.  The same trick is used with Aegon to make him appear bigger when he is kitted out in his armor.  Mance is someone who lives out the songs he sings and he never learned to obey.  He also claims to know all the songs north and south of the Wall.  He would have to come into contact with other bards for that to be true.

Edited by LynnS

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