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AlaskanSandman

Jon, Mance’s Blue Rose, and the Dayne Heiress. (Updated 1/15)

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3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Incorrect. Meera says TKOTLT spoke in a booming voice through his helm, not simply a booming voice. The helm and need to disguise the voice easily explain this description. And this is completely in line with Meera's use of "roar" and "howled" to descibe Lyanna driving off the squires in the same chapter and story just paragraphs earlier. You know, the person who actually drove off the squires of the knights TKOTLT challenged and defeated the next day? The person who is actually descibed as being an insane rider, and who is described in the app as having rode at rings like Daena the Defiant before her and Lady Lance currently. Mance has absolutely nothing to do with the story, was a ranger not a recruiter, and there is not a single hint he was even at the Harrenhal tourney.

Yes, very good point, through "HIS" helm

Quote

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying,

Good point.

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Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

Yes, very good point, through "HIS" helm

Good point.

LOL, do you really think Meera's use of "he" for the mystery knight confirms the actual gender of the mystery knight when she never confirms the identity of the knight to Bran?

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8 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Mance has absolutely nothing to do with the story, was a ranger not a recruiter, and there is not a single hint he was even at the Harrenhal tourney.

There are Builders, Rangers, and Stewards btw. Recruiters isn't its own division 

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1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

LOL, do you really think Meera's use of "he" for the mystery knight confirms the actual gender of the mystery knight when she never confirms the identity of the knight to Bran?

It confirms that it was indeed a he, which would fit with a booming voice as no other girl other than one frey aunt speaks with a booming voice. 

Again, i guess we're just picking and choosing when Meera is being truthful

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If Mance had been there, his job would have been to speak to the visitors to make them join the Night's Watch. And since Benjen apparently paid attention to the Night's Watch guy(s), it seems much more likely that they would have met if Mance actually had been there.

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Just now, The Wondering Wolf said:

If Mance had been there, his job would have been to speak to the visitors to make them join the Night's Watch. And since Benjen apparently paid attention to the Night's Watch guy(s), it seems much more likely that they would have met if Mance actually had been there.

Possibly, but we dont know when Benjen joined exactly or why. Since him and Eddard never speak, i dont think he went there willingly. More like lack of options and probably messed up and pissed off Eddard. He's not a bastard like Jon and has no reason to join the Watch.

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11 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well ill write lol when ever i feel like it, im sure there is no rule on that

As lol you wish lol however lol I lol don't lol feel lol like lol reading lol what lol you lol think lol you lol have lol to lol say lol.

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1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

He's not a bastard like Jon and has no reason to join the Watch.

I will not give you all the quotes stating that for Northern nobles it is considered an honour to join the Watch, but I am sure you will be able to find them if your are actually interested. Even Waymar Royce joins the order willingly.

Asked for Benjen's reasons, GRRM reminded us on the Night's Watch guy at Harrenhal. That is all we have so far. And it is more than you have for your assumption.

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1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I will not give you all the quotes stating that for Northern nobles it is considered an honour to join the Watch, but I am sure you will be able to find them if your are actually interested. Even Waymar Royce joins the order willingly.

Asked for Benjen's reasons, GRRM reminded us on the Night's Watch guy at Harrenhal. That is all we have so far. And it is more than you have for your assumption.

An honor? That's why Jon was upset that his father never told him what the Watch really was? It's not an honor, it's where people go who are criminals and unwanted. People who usually have committed some crime. Waymar may have had other reasons for being at the wall. We really dont see any nights watch people who aren't criminals or people booted out such as Sam and Jon. 

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1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

OK, remind me, where is Mance's exceptional horsemanship mentioned? Because I honestly don't remember anything like that.

Well, there's certainly no mention of him participating in tourneys and whatnot, but Mance was a Ranger in the NW for umpteen years, so given the terrain and the dangers involved with that, I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say he knew how to handle a dang horse.

 

For the record, I don't necessarily agree that Mance was the recruiter at the tourney, but contesting his horsemanship skills & potential ability to hit a moving target after he spent however many years serving in a role that had him atop a horse like, literally, all the time, seems rather nitpicky.

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5 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Well, there's certainly no mention of him participating in tourneys and whatnot, but Mance was a Ranger in the NW for umpteen years, so given the terrain and the dangers involved with that, I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say he knew how to handle a dang horse.

Umpteen years? Correct me if I'm wrong, but for all we know, 281 AL could very well have been Mance's first year as a crow.

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"There was one knight," said Meera, "in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one." "Or not." Jojen's face was dappled with green shadows. "Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I'm sure."

 

"You never heard this tale from your father?" asked Jojen.

"Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?"

Why would Jojen care whether Ned told Bran (and the other children) a story about a man of the Night's Watch entering a tourney to restore a crannogman's honor? The man of the NW is nothing to Ned or Bran. 

 

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18 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Waymar may have had other reasons for being at the wall.

Yeah, of course. Maybe he fathered Bael the Bard with his own sister or something like that. Fact is he was accompanied to the Wall by his own father, so whatever reasons he had, it was no punishment for sure.

18 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

We really dont see any nights watch people who aren't criminals or people booted out such as Sam and Jon.

What about Jeor Mormont? What about Denys Mallister? What about Duncan Liddle (a firstborn son)? Now you can make up a story for each of them, but it does not change that there are people joining the order willingly. Of course the order has reached a low point, nonetheless you can find these guys.

 

Edited by The Wondering Wolf

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2 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

"There was one knight," said Meera, "in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one." "Or not." Jojen's face was dappled with green shadows. "Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I'm sure."

 

"You never heard this tale from your father?" asked Jojen.

"Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?"

Why would Jojen care whether Ned told Bran (and the other children) a story about a man of the Night's Watch entering a tourney to restore a crannogman's honor? The man of the NW is nothing to Ned or Bran. 

 

If he was something to their brother though, then that would matter. 

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2 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Umpteen years? Correct me if I'm wrong, but for all we know, 281 AL could very well have been Mance's first year as a crow.

So he grew up at the Shadow Tower and spent his entire life with the Watch and the Wall, but never sat a horse or went riding on extended journeys until he became a Ranger?  

I mean, it just stands to reason that the guy knows how to sit a horse.     Dispute his identity as KotLT all you like, but disputing his ability to be such based on a lack of horsemanship is grasping, imo.   

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8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If he was something to their brother though, then that would matter. 

My point was that this would have been something Ned might have been proud of. One of his siblings entered the lists, beat three knights, honored one of their loyal bannermen like that, but he said nothing. Jojen is surprised that Ned has never told the story. If it's Mance as is being suggested here, Mance is nothing to Ned, so Jojen wondering 3 separate times about Ned not telling the story is out of place.

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1 minute ago, PrettyPig said:

So he grew up at the Shadow Tower and spent his entire life with the Watch and the Wall, but never sat a horse or went riding on extended journeys until he became a Ranger?

I don't know. Did he? Did he not? Yet another thing we need to assume for the theory to kinda work, or at least not fall apart.

1 minute ago, PrettyPig said:

I mean, it just stands to reason that the guy knows how to sit a horse.     Dispute his identity as KotLT all you like, but disputing his ability to be such based on a lack of horsemanship is grasping, imo.   

Don't you see the tremendous weight of all things already assumed for the hypothesis just to be not completely impossible?

The amount of duct tape already used in this thread in order to keep "Mance is KOTLT" afloat would've saved the Titanic.

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1 minute ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Don't you see the tremendous weight of all things already assumed for the hypothesis just to be not completely impossible?

It's certainly no more than what is assumed all the time re: KotLT being Lyanna Stark.     Just in terms of physical possibility I'd be inclined to lean more toward a fully-grown man of the Watch who's been living a hard life of patrolling and training at the Wall for some period of time vs. a 14yo girl who, like Arya (as King Bob pointed out), may have been  "the size of a wet rat", and had to practice her skills in secret with tourney swords and her little brother.    But, how many hundreds of people lend great probability to the latter every day here?  

I dunno, it's not my theory so I'm not invested in it...just commenting that it's disingenuous to disregard it based on that.

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