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Jon, Mance’s Blue Rose, and the Dayne Heiress. (Updated 1/15)

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Jon, Mance’s Blue Rose, and the Dayne Heiress.

 

So to start, its helpful to understand what happened with Bael the Bard who fathered a kid on the Targaryens (Gael the Winter child) and the Starks (Son who faced Bael).

bael-queen-alyssaneprincess-gael

And how Bloodraven led to the clues (13) that revealed Bael and the war of 92 Ac.

bloodraven-nights-king-and-last-hero

 

This will talk about Mance being the Black brother at Harrenhal, who was the Knight in the Laughing Tree, who gave a blue winter rose and stole a bride (s).

 

Quick note on Benjen joining the Watch and any possibility of having met Mance or the recruiter  at the Tourney, which is none at all. Benjen likely joined the Watch 5 years after Roberts Rebellion

Spoiler

We dont know for sure when Benjen spoke to recruiters if he did at all (Jon didn't) and we dont know when Benjen went to the wall exactly. He was the Stark in Winterfell during Roberts Rebellion so there is no reason to think he was talking to recruiters and joining the watch prior to the war. Itd be after the war and what ever recruiter was at Harrenhal near 3 years prior. Plus, as Jon was 5 when Mance came to Winterfell while still in the Watch under L.C. Qhorgyle, it stands to reason that Benjen didn't join the Watch until sometime after Jon was already 5. Other wise Benjen would indeed know who Mance was as a brother in the watch.

Known wandering crows

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wandering_crow

Further, there are multiple recruiters in the watch, giving Mance more of a chance to have been there.

 

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch."
 
 
Some one from the Night's Watch was at Harrenhal asking for men
 
 
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Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to WinterfellJon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

 Jon was already in the North when Cat arrived

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . 

The  Crypts are calling Jon to them, but also telling him there is no place for him there.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

"Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."

"Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder.

Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.

His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."

 So Eddard has dealt with him before?

 

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A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"Take me with you when you go back to the Wall," Jon said in a sudden rush. "Father will give me leave to go if you ask him, I know he will."

Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. "The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon."

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank downa long swallow.

"Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.

"A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Also," he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?"

"I forget nothing," Jon boasted. The wine was making him bold. He tried to sit very straight, to make himself seem taller. "I want to serve in the Night's Watch, Uncle."

He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

"You don't know what you're asking, Jon. The Night's Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor."

"A bastard can have honor too," Jon said. "I am ready to swear your oath."

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."

Jon trembled. "I will never father a bastard," he said carefully. "Never!" He spat it out like venom.

 Bejen who knew Mance Rayder and possibly what happened and who Jon's real father is.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. "Another solution presents itself," he said, his voice quiet. "Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black."

Ned looked shocked. "He asked to join the Night's Watch?"

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell.

Maester Luwin said, "There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord."

"And even a bastard may rise high in the Night's Watch," Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. "Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen …"

"A hard sacrifice," Maester Luwin agreed. "Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady's."

 Ned is shocked for good reason, and still his voice was troubled. Note that Benjen told Luwin rather than going to Eddard about it. Is something amiss between these two brothers as to why they're not speaking to each other?

 

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak."

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

"Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Baelor this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast."

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

"It never happened," Jon said.

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

 

So I talk else where about Bael the Bard actually having slept with Queen Alysanne who had his child at Queen’s Crown. Which is a Tower located near the wall. This is likely where Mance first met Lyanna

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A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"Well enough. I'd heard it before."

"But what does it matter, for all men must die," the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly, "and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife. Tell me, does my Lord of Bones speak truly? Did you slay my old friend the Halfhand?"

 

When Jon first meets Mance, Mance insist on reciting the line about kissing the Dornishman’s wife again.

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The Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun,

and her kisses were warmer than spring.

But the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel,

and its kiss was a terrible thing.

The Dornishman's wife would sing as she bathed,

in a voice that was sweet as a peach,

But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own,

and a bite sharp and cold as a leech.

As he lay on the ground with the darkness around,

and the taste of his blood on his tongue,

His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer,

and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,

"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done,

the Dornishman's taken my life,

But what does it matter, for all men must die,

and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!"

 

Tasted Robert’s Wife and killed by Stannis his brother.

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The Dornish Marches, located in the south-west in a long salient along the Red Mountains, serve as an effective buffer zone between the stormlands and their old enemies of the Reach and Dorne.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that." Was I wrong to spare this one? "If the glamor fails, they will kill you."

The wildling began to scrape the dirt out from beneath his nails with the point of his dagger. "I've sung my songs, fought my battles, drunk summer wine, tasted the Dornishman's wife. A man should die the way he's lived. For me that's steel in hand."

 

Mance says he has drank summer wine and tasted the Dornish Man’s wife.

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

"She even claimed we were kin. She told me a story . . ."

". . . of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the songMance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye, and for their women as well."

"You knew him?"

"We all knew him." His voice was sad.

They were friends as well as brothersJon realized, and now they are sworn foes. "Why did he desert?"

"For a wench, some say. For a crown, others would have it." Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. "He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that's true. But it was more than that. He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again."

 

For a wench? He left for a wench, but it wasn’t Dalla his current wife

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A Storm of Swords - Jon I

Jon considered a moment. "The Halfhand said you had a passion for wildling music."

"I did. I do. That's closer to the mark, yes. But not a hit." Mance Rayder rose, unfastened the clasp that held his cloak, and swept it over the bench. "It was for this."

"A cloak?"

 

Mance Rayder and a Rose

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A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"I remember."

"And did you see where I was seated, Mance?" He leaned forward. "Did you see where they put the bastard?"

Mance Rayder looked at Jon's face for a long moment. "I think we had best find you a new cloak," the king said, holding out his hand.

 

Mance Rayder, a Bastard himself and father of Jon Snow.

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A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

ven the chariots rumbled off, having done nothing but look fearsome and make a lot of noise. When they break, they break hard, Jon Snow thought as he watched them reel away. The drums had all gone silent. How do you like that music, Mance? How do you like the taste of the Dornishman's wife? "

 

That’s almost messed up for Jon to even ask that…. I’ll just move on….

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A Storm of Swords - Jon X

I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you've abandoned, all of them at once."

"Why don't you, then?" Jon could have drawn Longclaw then, but he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say.

"Blood," said Mance Rayder. "I'd win in the end, yes, but you'd bleed me, and my people have bled enough."

"Your losses haven't been that heavy."

 

Why? Cause he is Bael the Bard and father of Jon, Blood. So he could not face him.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle.

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

 

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

"No," said Meera. "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end."


The knight of the Laughing Tree is Mance Rayder helping Howland who likely helped Mance glamour as Rhaegar.

"The device upon his shield" "they would unmask him," "spoke in a booming voice through his helm" 

Meera repeatedly refers to the Knight of the Laughing Tree as a Guy.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

 

Giving Blue Roses which are rare and possibly only found in the North. So if Mance is doing Rhaegar, then what is Rhaegar doing?

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A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

 

Dishonoring Ashara Dayne by allowing Lyanna Stark to be crowned Queen of Love and Beauty. Rhaegar must have known he would lose to Baristan Selmy whom he’s lost to before. Mance may have been the only person to beat him. Mance who could beat Jon Snow who had to train against three men at once. So Howland got something out of it, Mance got something out of it, and Rhaegar was allowed to be made to look strong in front of the people he wanted to follow him. Slight problem, Mance was supposed to crown Ashara Dayne, while instead, he crowned the woman he loved and left the Watch for.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

Lyanna Stark and her Bael the Bard.

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combatAnd they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

 

Ned must have been so torn. He had to return Dawn from the North as its place is in the south.

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon(Ashara Dayne) Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

 

He was on his way to kill Mance Rayder, or he had eloped south with Ashara Dayne. Though I think they met at K.L. where she later departed for Dragonstone.

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A Dance with Dragons - The Discarded Knight

"So do others," suggested Gerris Drinkwater. "Naharis, for one. The queen's …"

"… paramour," Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might besmirch the queen's honor"That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?" He did not wait for a reply. "Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that."

"No," said Quentyn, red-faced, "but …"

 

Daenerys has a paramour as her mother was Rhaegar’s paramour

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A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"He's with the Night's Watch on the Wall." Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn't care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair . . . "Jon looks like me, even though he's bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me 'little sister.'" Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. "How do you know about Jon?"

"He is my milk brother."

"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

"Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name." Arya gave Ned a wary look. "You know her? Truly?" Is he making mock of me? "If you lie I'll punch your face."

"Wylla was my wetnurse," he repeated solemnly. "I swear it on the honor of my House."

"You have a House?" That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. "Who are you?"

"My lady?" Ned looked embarrassed. "I'm Edric Dayne, the . . . the Lord of Starfall."

Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her "little sister." I'm not so little anymore. He'd have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter and tell him what Ned Dayne had said. "There was an Arthur Dayne," she remembered. "The one they called the Sword of the Morning."

"My father was Ser Arthur's elder brotherLady Ashara was my auntI never knew herthoughShe threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Swordbefore I was born."

"Why would she do that?" said Arya, startled.

 

Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. "Your lord father never spoke of her?" he said. "The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?"

"No. Did he know her?"

"Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring."

"Oh." Arya did not know what else to say. "Why did she jump in the sea, though?"

"Her heart was broken."

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn't say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. "Did someone break it?"
He hesitated. "Perhaps it's not my place . . ."
"Tell me."

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

"That's not so. He loved my lady mother."

"I'm sure he didmy lady, but—"

"She was the only one he loved."

"He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then," Gendry said behind them.

Arya wished she had another crab apple to bounce off his face. "My father had honor," she said angrily.

 

House Dayne who gave Eddard Wylla to hide Jon, helped House Dayne by hiding Daenerys and sending 5 Stark men to Dragonstone to rescue Viserys and Ashara’s child Daenerys

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A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. 

 

Ashara supposedly died for the prince she loved. Rhaegar is the only prince other than Lewyn Martel who is much older.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"My brother was not the cause of this quarrel," Cersei told the king. "Lord Stark was returning drunk from a brothel. His men attacked Jaime and his guards, even as his wife attacked Tyrion on the kingsroad."

"You know me better than that, Robert," Ned said"Ask Lord Baelish if you doubt me. He was there."

 

Eddard Stark had honor

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"I'm not afraid," she said. "That boy Ned said . . ."

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

 

Eddard’s one night that involved him in everything. He and his friend helped kill the man, the woman he loved actually loved.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

The Queen’s Crown Tower being mixed up with the Tower of Joy and or the Tower at Starfall? Which tower was Arthur Guarding? Likely Ashara Dayne and Rhaegar’s child.  The full details of this im a little unsure about. They seems as though they are far away possibly to the North, but that seems unlikely if they are guarding Rhaegar’s child.  Queen’s Crown is likely just where Lyanna and Mance met, so they likely were in the crypts the whole time. So I would bet the only tower was the Tower of Joy.

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A Storm of Swords - Jon V

Across the lake, the tower was black again, a dim shape dimly seen. "A queen lived there?" asked Ygritte.

"A queen stayed there for a night." Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. "Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He's called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she'd worn when she spent the night among them."

"I have never seen a dragon."

 

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All About Birth Crowning - Parents Magazine

"Once you can see the head and it doesn't slip back in, that's crowning," 

 

Daenerys is a homophone for Dayne Heiress

and an anagram for Ser Dayne, a nod to her brother? Dany’s uncle?

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly.

 

Who’s constantly mentioning Rhaegar as opposed to anything in Jon’s arch.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.

 

Which was Ashara Dayne while everyone blame him for Lyanna Stark.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

 Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
 
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."
"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

 

Ned was just trying to protect every ones babies.

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"Remember who you are, Daenerys, ... The dragons know. Do you?"-Quiathe-A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

 

Remember who you are, Quiathe of the stars.

Quote

What do you want of me, Quaithe?"

Moonlight shone in the woman's eyes. "To show you the way.                                          ADWD-Daenerys II

 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… the dragon …"
And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

 

The Stars trying to show her her connection to Rhaegar Targaryen.

Quote

Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

The rest I will save for the books.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

 

 So Ashara was not in Starfall the whole time and connected to Rhaegar.

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise.The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Looking up at Ashara Dayne, Daenerys’ mother

 

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime II

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

Rhaegar tries to secretly get Ashara Dayne to Dragonstone but fails in getting Elia out.

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime V

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

 

Rhaella who had left the night before.

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A Clash of Kings - Prologue

His little ship had a black hull, black sails, black oars, and a hold crammed with onions and salt fish. Little enough, yet it had kept the garrison alive long enough for Eddard Stark to reach Storm's End and break the siege.

That you helping out Davos?

 

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Ashara Dayne - of Starfall. 

Jumped from Palestone sword (Cliff/Tower?) - Dawn

Sword of the Morning - Dawn

Dawn- Forged from a falling Star by the first Dayne. Lightbringer?

Sigil- White sword and falling Star

 

And Quiathe speaking to her as Stars.

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."
"Quaithe?" Dany called. "Where are you, Quaithe?"
Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

 

I think William Dustin and 4 loyal men broke in and took Viserys and Daenerys to Dorne

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

"She warned you?" Selmy frowned. "Why are you still here?"

Prince Quentyn flushed. "The marriage pact—"

"—was made by two dead men and contained not a word about the queen or you. It promised your sister's hand to the queen's brother, another dead man. It has no force. Until you turned up here, Her Grace was ignorant of its existence. Your father keeps his secrets well, Prince Quentyn. Too well, I fear. If the queen had known of this pact in Qarth, she might never have turned aside for Slaver's Bay, but you came too late. I have no wish to salt your wounds, but Her Grace has a new husband and an old paramour, and seems to prefer the both of them to you.

Lemon Tree’s and a Red Door? At what point did they go from Dorne to Braavos?

Lets assume im wrong about Daenerys being the child of Rhaegar and Ashara and is actually the child of Aerys and Rhaella. Either way, she is still a child of fire.

The story has always seemed to be about Dany either fighting Jon, or hooking up with Jon. It's either one or the other. And this makes sense, since Dany is Fire. This would mean Jon is Ice. Ice and Fire. 

Yet, if Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he is the child of Ice and Fire. And there is no parralel to Dany really, not at all. Other than Jon has a little fire in him and Dany is full fire.

So them fighting or hooking up isn't really Ice and Fire. 

Ice and Fire coming together should be the child of Jon and Daenerys. The Stallion who mounts the world.

Jon is only Ice by any theory i have ever seen, if he is the child of Mance and Lyanna.

Not Eddard and Ashara, Rhaegar and Lyanna, Brandon and Ashara, or any other one ive seen.

This is literally the only way he is pure Ice as Daenerys is pure fire.

This would put both Jon and Daenerys' parents at the center of their story arch and pop up in  each of them. Mance in Jons (never Rhaegar), and Rhaegar in Daenerys (Mentions Rhaegar alot and Aerys only a couple times)

Promise me Ned would still include Mance and having to hide Jon also, as, as a Black Brother, Mance is not allowed to have kids (Jon) and win no glory (Knight of Laughing Tree), so it would mean the death of Mance who served for another 5 years before getting to go south again, where he went to Winterfell and saw Jon. Deserting sometime after.

Let me know what you think. This changes alot of how i see Rhaegar's role in everything and what may have happened during Harrenhal and Robert's Rebellion.

 

This all connects to Bloodraven, 13, Bael the Bard, Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne. 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch,

For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen.

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King … we say that you're the nine-hundred-and-ninety-eighth LordCommander of the Night's Watch,

 

298th- Jon Snow         299-300ac     1yr

297th- Jeor Mormont   288-299ac     11 yrs

996th- Qorgyle            252-288ac      36 yrs  (Person of interest under the time of Roberts Rebellion and service of Mance.)

995th- Bloodraven      239-252ac       13 years...... wait a min.

994th- Sleepy Jack     226-239ac became known as from Jack Musgood after Raymund Redbeard King beyond the Wall snuck south

Edit- Curious about these date, do a little research. Too much info to include here unfortunately. 

What is 9 + 9 - 5? 13

 I find it interesting that Bran mentions this story too just before passing beyond the Black Gate and possibly meeting the Night's King. The Last Greenseerer.

 

Another interesting thing.

1. Aegon I   

2 Aenys I

3 Maegor I

4 Jaehaerys I & Alysanne 1  who closed Night fort and changed watch                          1. Aegon

5 Viserys I                         2                                                                                              2. Maegor I, Aenys I

6 Aegon II                         3                                                                                               3 Jaehaerys I

7 Aegon III                        4                                                                                               4. Generation skipped over

8 Daeron I                         5                                                                                               4 Viserys I 

9 Baelor I                          6                                                                                               6 Aegon II

10 Viserys II                     7                                                                                               7 Viserys II, Aegon III

11 Aegon IV                     8                                                                                                8 Aegon IV Baelor I Daeron I

12 Daeron II                     9                                                                                                9 Daeron II

13 Aerys I                        10                                                                                              10 Aerys I, Maekar I

14 Maekar I                      11                                                                                              11 Aegon V

15 Aegon V                      12                                                                                               12 Jaeharerys

16 Jaehaerys II                13   The 2nd who wed his kids on word of woods witch            13. Aerys II

17 Aerys II         

 

Quote

 

Bloodraven, the 13th L.C since Aegon or Jaehaerys the I. Who served for 13 years.

So what is going on? Why does GRRM seem to be calling our attention back to Aegon the Conqueror and Jaehaerys I

Well the histories would tell us one thing, though the clues would suggest something more.

 

                      Hawyn Hardhand

                                  I

                           Halleck Hoare 

                                 I

             I-----------------------------I                                                                    I--------------------I

        Hoare                           Harren the Black     vs  Aegon the     Torrehn Stark   Brandon Snow 

         Lord Commander        Holds the God's Eye     Conqueror              I       seen in vision cutting

            at Nightfort                                                            I                           I      an arrow who offered his

                                                                                           I                           I            bro to kill Aegon I

                                                                                     I-------------I                  I               

                       Warrior’s Sons & Faith of 7 Vs     Aenys       Maegor         I--------------I            I------------I

                             (Harren the Red  Died       Reign 37 AC                       (Sons  Daugher=Ronnel  Jonos

                                  In 37 AC, at near                 - 42 A  I                     speak of rebellion)       I

                                  the Gods Eye)           I------------------------I                     I                      (House Arryn?)

 Bael=======Alyssane        vs            Jaehaerys              Alysanne    Ellard Stark

 the Bard   I                                              (34-103)                 (36-99)      At council of 101

 -92Ac at    I                                    Reign 48 AC - 103 AC

Frozen      I

Ford          I

        I-----------------------------------I

Son who faced Bael   Gael The Winter child

62 Ac at Queens Crown   62 Ac

 

Edit- For more on Bael and Alysanne, and their two children Gael and a son and the possible connections this has to Dany and Jon, check out this thread 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150006-bael-queen-alyssaneprincess-gael/

Untill i can draw up a new thread covering both more appropriately 

 

Another way to look at things. Compare the Tourney's. Some one else is usually doing the Maid stealing, and not the person doing the crowning. So, is that you Mance? You decide.

Spoiler

 

So when looking at the known Tourneys and over lapping them and what is known about each, i began to see over laps.  

 

             Uthor Hightower==== Maris the Maid     vs  Argoth Stoneskin         vs ________      in first Tourney of Westeros

  Steals the Maid                                                     Crowns the maid with rose?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

           Peter Baelish ======Sansa the Maid     vs    Loras Tyrell                 vs The Mountain         In Hands Tourney

     Steals Maid                         infatuated with Loras       Gives Maid Rose                is made a K.G.            

                                                engaged to Joffery         Gay not actually into her

                                                                                                Cheats to win

                                                                                        Becomes a Kings Guard Knight and Lord Commander.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      __________?? ========Lyanna the maid       vs        Rhaegar Targaryen   vs Barristan       Tourney of Harrenhal

Steals the Maid                         Infatuated with Rhaegar?          Crowns the maid         wants Ashara  

                                                          Engaged to Robert.                                         Is a Kings Guard Knight

                                                                                                                                      and Lord Commander

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tregar Ormollen =======Lynesse Hightower Maid vs    Jorah Mormont   vs   Jamie  in last Tilt        Tourney of

Steals maid                        Infatuated with Tregar                    Crowns Maid           Jamie loves Cersei     Lannisport

                                           married to Jorah                         Wants Lynesse          Is a Kings Guard Knight

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 __________? ====Naerys Targaryen not a Maid   vs Aemon the Dragon Knight   vs ______? Tourney of Kings

                                      Infatuated with?                             Kings Guard Knight                      Loves?   Landing?                        

                                  Married to Aegon IV                      Said to crown Naerys instead 

                                                                                      of his mistress. Not into Naerys?

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Daemon Targ/ Laenar Velaryon ======Rhaenyra   vs Ser Criston Cole   vs  Lymond Mallister    Tourney of

   Both have kids with Rhaenyra           Maid at time    Become K.G. and L.C                                          MaidenPool

 Steals the Maid                                                            Crowns the Maid  but still loses to Lymond         

 

So something doesn't add up when you compare.       

the person doing the stealing may not be competing in the Tourney and is never the person who does the crowning or wins the Tourney.

 

Now i personally think Rhaegar is Ice and not fire do to a thread i did about Rhaenyra Targaryen and Daemon Targaryen possibly having the Blood of the Starks in them. But as that is debated, i kept him fire here. So if he is fire here, then it breaks the cycle. It also means that the person doing the stealing would be Ice. Also, Aemon i think is Ice too as he descends from Rhaenyra and Daemon. This is why i think they lost their dragons, so kind of tied to it all for me. 

Is there any other parallels you can find or think of?

Who could possibly have been the person to steal Lyanna  -   (Books aren't done people and that name less thing does not exist here, so think freely and stop thinking of that loose adaptation.)

Can any one think of anything else to do with Sansa, Loras and Little Finger that may be telling us more? Or else where in the story?

 

And Blasphemy but,         who other than Rhaegar Targaryen could have stolen Lyanna Stark? lets just be hypothetical here based on the above evidence.

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
Updated note at top and bottom in spoilers.

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Has mance ever been below the neck? Not speculatively,  but in book? 

Mance says he tasted dornish wine and a dornishwife so I think it is likely.

I find rather difficult for him to find either of those things at the Wall or further north...

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19 minutes ago, divica said:

Mance says he tasted dornish wine and a dornishwife so I think it is likely.

I find rather difficult for him to find either of those things at the Wall or further north...

He fancies himself after Bael the bard. The song is something known all over the 7 kingdoms. just because he sings a song in no way means he traveled below the neck. Especially because he speaks of meeting Jon and Robb in winterfell as children, and he was still in the watch. There would be no reason for him to desert his post and  travel south. That is the gaping hole in the theory and why it is wrong. Besides, we know who Jon's parents are at this point 

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19 minutes ago, divica said:

Mance says he tasted dornish wine and a dornishwife so I think it is likely.

I find rather difficult for him to find either of those things at the Wall or further north...

Dornish wine probably not difficult at all.  There is a ton of trade going on between wildings, NW brothers, and trading ships from the free cities.  Can't imagine it would be too difficult for a Lyseni or Braavosi ship to get a hold of Dornish wine.

Dornishman's wife?  That may be more difficult to come by in the North :P, but I also don't take that literally but rather symbolically.

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

Jon considered a moment. "The Halfhand said you had a passion for wildling music."

"I did. I do. That's closer to the mark, yes. But not a hit." Mance Rayder rose, unfastened the clasp that held his cloak, and swept it over the bench. "It was for this."

"A cloak?"

 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Mance Rayder and a Rose

Seriously? This so wildly disingenuous as to be able to disregard anything else in this fan-fiction.

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7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He fancies himself after Bael the bard. The song is something known all over the 7 kingdoms. just because he sings a song in no way means he traveled below the neck. Especially because he speaks of meeting Jon and Robb in winterfell as children, and he was still in the watch. There would be no reason for him to desert his post and  travel south. That is the gaping hole in the theory and why it is wrong. Besides, we know who Jon's parents are at this point 

He says it it in a conversation with mel

Quote

The wildling began to scrape the dirt out from beneath his nails with the point of his dagger. "I've sung my songs, fought my battles, drunk summer wine, tasted the Dornishman's wife. A man should die the way he's lived. For me that's steel in hand."

And I don t support the theory. Just that mance might have traveled more than what we know.

Some days ago there was a conversation about mance being a recruiter for the NW for a while for example... Don t Forget that a normal NW brother wouldn t learn so many songs as mance did if he stayed at the Wall and ocasionally traveled to winterfell...

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10 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Dornish wine probably not difficult at all.  There is a ton of trade going on between wildings, NW brothers, and trading ships from the free cities.  Can't imagine it would be too difficult for a Lyseni or Braavosi ship to get a hold of Dornish wine.

Dornishman's wife?  That may be more difficult to come by in the North :P, but I also don't take that literally but rather symbolically.

That is possible. And it was summer wine... Don t know if it is a specific typeof wine. But I get the idea that he has experienced a lot of stuff so he might have seen more of the world than just the north...

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Reads more like a poetic license, though. 

***I've sung, fought, drunk & f*ck'd all over the continent.

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Just now, King Merrett I Frey said:

Reads more like a poetic license, though. 

***I've sung, fought, drunk & f*ck'd all over the continent.

exactly! And from his story he is suposed to only have lived in the Wall and beyond the wall

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9 minutes ago, divica said:

He says it it in a conversation with mel

And I don t support the theory. Just that mance might have traveled more than what we know.

Some days ago there was a conversation about mance being a recruiter for the NW for a while for example... Don t Forget that a normal NW brother wouldn t learn so many songs as mance did if he stayed at the Wall and ocasionally traveled to winterfell...

Why? Watchmen come from all over the kingdoms. They would bring songs they like to the watch and since there is no TV and most watchmen can't read, so drinking wine and singing songs are literally the only entertainment in winter, unless the guys started to have sex with each other, and that does not seem the case in the books 

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2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Why? Watchmen come from all over the kingdoms. They would bring songs they like to the watch and since there is no TV and most watchmen can't read, so drinking wine and singing songs are literally the only entertainment in winter, unless the guys started to have sex with each other, and that does not seem the case in the books 

But they wouldn t know how to sing the songs. At least not well. And you can t sing a song well if you don t listen how it should be sang at least once.

And then it fits with mance's persona to have traveled to several places...

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6 minutes ago, divica said:

But they wouldn t know how to sing the songs. At least not well. And you can t sing a song well if you don t listen how it should be sang at least once.

And then it fits with mance's persona to have traveled to several places...

why would you assume someone won't be able to sing a song well? 

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8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

why would you assume someone won't be able to sing a song well? 

Because very few people are singers aka very few people know how to sing

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8 minutes ago, divica said:

Because very few people are singers aka very few people know how to sing

very few people are professional singers. In a world ful of illiterate people with years long winters, literally everyone sings 

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1 hour ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Reads more like a poetic license, though. 

***I've sung, fought, drunk & f*ck'd all over the continent.

:thumbsup: Don't pay any attention to the rest of the post because I am being :commie:

I can understand the mystery behind Mance. I have my own tinfoil and questions.

Considering Mance, as a child was taken in by the NW after a group of wildlings had been killed ---

Let’s say Mance displayed leadership potential as he aged. Let’s say he was being groomed to be a ranger. Let’s say that in that grooming process he was taught to read & write. That is a lot of let’s say.

How old does a person think that Mance is? He was supposedly raised at the Wall. I don’t know how old Mance was when he deserted.

According to Halfhand

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII   "Was he a good ranger?"   "He was the best of us," said the Halfhand, "and the worst as well.  <snip>    "She even claimed we were kin. She told me a story . . ."". . . of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the song. Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye, and for their women as well."/

It seems Mance had a passion for women and wildling music. A person could ask where the wildlings heard the songs from.

From Mance I learn

A Storm of Swords - Jon I         Jon's eyes widened in disbelief. "That can't be so."    "It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist./

From the prologue of DwD I learn that Eastwatch is a trading center. A trading center that trades with wildlings and ships from faraway places. Perchance the area around Eastwatch has bars and brothels that singers traveling from place to place stop in to sing their songs and earn a bit of coin?

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue      He could not have been more than ten. Haggon traded a dozen strings of amber and a sled piled high with pelts for six skins of wine, a block of salt, and a copper kettle. Eastwatch was a better place to trade than Castle Black; that was where the ships came, laden with goods from the fabled lands beyond the sea. The crows knew Haggon as a hunter and a friend to the Night's Watch, and welcomed the news he brought of life beyond their Wall. Some knew him for a skinchanger too, but no one spoke of that./

Martin is telling a story. I would ask what the Dornishman’s wife song represents ----

A Storm of Swords - Jon I     "But what does it matter, for all men must die," the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly, "and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife.

Notice that at the end of Oberyn's remark it says, "The knelling men stood up, and we were free again."

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX     "And?" said Tyrion, waiting.   By way of answer Prince Oberyn swirled his wine, and said, "When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne so long ago, he left the Lord of Highgarden to rule us after the Submission of Sunspear. This Tyrell moved with his tail from keep to keep, chasing rebels and making certain that our knees stayed bent. He would arrive in force, take a castle for his own, stay a moon's turn, and ride on to the next castle. It was his custom to turn the lords out of their own chambers and take their beds for himself. One night he found himself beneath a heavy velvet canopy. A sash hung down near the pillows, should he wish to summon a wench. He had a taste for Dornish women, this Lord Tyrell, and who can blame him? So he pulled upon the sash, and when he did the canopy above him split open, and a hundred red scorpions fell down upon his head. His death lit a fire that soon swept across Dorne, undoing all the Young Dragon's victories in a fortnight. The kneeling men stood up, and we were free again."

 

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43 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

:thumbsup: Don't pay any attention to the rest of the post because I am being :commie:

I can understand the mystery behind Mance. I have my own tinfoil and questions.

Considering Mance, as a child was taken in by the NW after a group of wildlings had been killed ---

Let’s say Mance displayed leadership potential as he aged. Let’s say he was being groomed to be a ranger. Let’s say that in that grooming process he was taught to read & write. That is a lot of let’s say.

How old does a person think that Mance is? He was supposedly raised at the Wall. I don’t know how old Mance was when he deserted.

It's a good question...I don't know if we are ever given an age or age range for him.  I'd imagine he's a similar age to Qhorin Halfhand, which I've always thought of as like anywhere in the range from mid 30s to mid 40s (probably around 40)?  Old enough to have experienced a lot of things, but still young enough to kick Jon's ass with a sword.  

2 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Reads more like a poetic license, though. 

***I've sung, fought, drunk & f*ck'd all over the continent.

This precisely.  In it's most general interpretation, I would view the Dornishman's wife as representing freedom of choice, to live and die as Mance saw fit.  

2 hours ago, divica said:

That is possible. And it was summer wine... Don t know if it is a specific typeof wine. But I get the idea that he has experienced a lot of stuff so he might have seen more of the world than just the north...

It's definitely possible, but I'd still say unlikely.  Mance is definitely written to be a bit mysterious, hence you get all these crackpottery kind of theories like Mance = Rheagar etc.  But yeah, I'd still think Mance was relatively confined to the North for his life, between beyond the Wall, the Wall, and Winterfell that is still a lot of life and culture and experience for a person.  

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Mance went all the way to Dorne and seduced Mellario of Norvos. Which is the real reason she left Dorne and never came back.

Doran will get around to getting vengence on him as well. However for now he'll pretend he's a blood orange like he does with the rest of his enemies when he crushes them.

Also forgot to add that Trystane is in fact Mance's son. Which is why Doran agreed to marry him to the grandchild of his enemy who is likely the product of incest.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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7 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Has mance ever been below the neck? Not speculatively,  but in book? 

Well this is all new and speculative but its line to Melisandre about having drank summer wine and tasted the Dornishman's wife seemed like him saying he had, though i know this all is loose maybe. It all just kind of came to me the other night talking to @LynnS about Harrenhal and after just doing a thread on Bael. The quotes above that i used i think help show some of this idea, as when he first meets Jon even, despite having finished the song, repeats that last  part to Jon. Plus all the 13 nods in the other thread pointing to certain things connecting Jon and possibly the original Bael and to Jaehaery's time. All of which i think is Matin's way of calling attention to these events and people. 

So it's not out right stated that he has ever been south, it would make sense.

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